Pro Wrasslin' Thread: I don't know what I just saw

[nachobro]

lol eugene  i'd actually forgotten about that shit

reminds me of why i hate the young bucks so much, they're just a tag team of eugenes

[Mods Help]

someone please explain the HHH WASN'T A BIG PART OF THE AE thing?

[nachobro]

Speaking of Steph, been watching 2002 SD stuff while working out lately and

lookin good. way better than any of those skinny ass models they were calling divas back then

[chronovore]

Kurt Angle was my favorite heel. Dude could wrestle, was awesome on the mic and had great timing.

I could never figure out the Diva thing; the era I watched (2001-2005) was nothing but sideshow puff antics.

[Mods Help]

At one point in time, slightly before you started watching, women wrestlers actually had awesome matches. Or was it during when you watched? I don't remember the exact dates when Trish and Lita wrestled. Also we had Chyna as IC champ, which wasn't the greatest run but still.

[Human Snorenado]

Trish was great but suffered from a lack of credible competition. She still my boo, though 

[Mandark]

Molly Holly was my girl.

[Human Snorenado]

Anyway, I defy anyone to watch this match and tell me HHH sucked at his peak. And this was Shawn's first match back if I remember correctly- no one knew what he was still capable of. A whole lot, it turned out.

[ToxicAdam]

Show me HHH against a stiff. Michaels was like Flair in that he could make EVERYONE look good.

[chronovore]

At one point in time, slightly before you started watching, women wrestlers actually had awesome matches. Or was it during when you watched? I don't remember the exact dates when Trish and Lita wrestled. Also we had Chyna as IC champ, which wasn't the greatest run but still.

Chyna was gone just before I started watching. Trish came back during that time, but no one was competition. My time had Stacy Kiebler, Tori, qnd Lita. But Lita was almost entirely relegated to a Hardy Brothers accessory. It was clear that she could wrestle, but was almost never given a chance.

[archie4208]

Daniel Bryan is retiring. 

[nachobro]

Considering his health, it's for the best. Glad I got to see him wrestle last year though.  :'(

[seagrams hotsauce]

Between him doing it on twitter, teasing raw, and every other report we've heard saying he's been cleared by everyone but the WWE, I'm really hoping this is a work

[El Babua]

If it's not a work, good for him. Better to get out than be a broken shell of what you once were.

If it is. Pls don't become Benoit II. 

[seagrams hotsauce]

Isn't DBs injury neck/shoulder related? I thought the speculation on Benoit was that he had been affected by CTE pretty badly since he would still do shit like take chair shots to the head somewhat regularly

[archie4208]

Concussion related.

He's took a few too many floggins on the noggin and WWE's doctor refuses to clear him.

[Mods Help]

I cried so hard during that.

OMG.

CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are both what drew back to wrestling.

[archie4208]

;_;

[Mods Help]

great thread on punk and bryan's impacts

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/44y94e/meltzer_on_bryans_impact_on_wrestling_it_will_be/

[Mods Help]

Some good posts in that thread for people who can't stand/don't understand reddit's format:

I think we've already seen the big change him and Punk made together. The HBK and Bret of this generation. Along with basically reviving the dead indy scene in the early 2000s.

Bryan's legacy without the concussion stuff is pretty big. It's going to be a lot bigger than just reviving the indy scene and changing WWE's perception of what a superstar has to look like. Because of why Bryan retired, future generations of talents are going to become more aware of how to work safer and having longer careers and a more healthy post-career. That's what Meltzer is implying.

Him and Punk really do feel like game changers for how WWE operates. Honestly, with exception to Cena, the top two guys of the last 8-10 years have been indie guys that definitely destroyed every single mold that Vince had told us made a star.

    Vegan? Check.
    Straight Edge? Check.
    Tattooes? Check.
    Unkept beard and crazy hair? Check.
    Small? Check.
    Ring technicians? Check.

Now look at the next crop of guys, a chubby French Canadian. A small Syrian, Muslim, French Canadian man billed from Mexico. Or a tall, charismatic Michael Jackson inspired Japanese man with weird hair. A small, adorable women that loves to hug and isn't a supermodel.

Honestly. The doors have been busted wide open, and Punk and Bryan a large part of that.

I've seen plenty of people online brushing off Punk as if he didn't do anything. I understand people are on a "fuck Punk" kick right now, but without his Summer of Punk storyline we probably wouldn't even see Indy guys get a real honest chance.

CM Punk broke down the door. Daniel Bryan made sure it stayed opened. Permanently.

Even before the summer of Punk angle, he was incredibly important. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Punk the first modern indy star to win a world title in WWE? Punk was the first one to change the perception of indy guys that they can't cut it in WWE. It's no coincidence that all the major indy stars that WWE have had in recent years (including Bryan) were signed after Punk was Heavyweight Champion.

His King Of The Indies tourney run (and the final against Low-Ki) was indirectly responsible for the independent scene's resurgence and directly responsible for the formation of Ring Of Honor. Past that, his time in the WWE opened a ton of doors that guys like Sami Zayn, Kevin Owens, AJ Styles and Samoa Joe are benefiting from today.

My God, so not only did Bryan help make it OK for indie guys to get signed and succeed in WWE, but he also helped create the modern indie wrestling scene by leading to the creation of ROH.

What's crazy about Bryan's in-ring WWE career is that it lasted less than 5 years. For reference, The Shield debuted 3 and a half years ago. Dolph Ziggler debuted almost 10 years ago. To achieve as much as Bryan did in that short time without the backing of Vince and co. is insane.

[Mods Help]

We lost this generation's Austin and Rock(Or Bret and Shawn if you wanna go with the new gen comparison) in the span of three years. That really sucks.

What sucks even more is we never really got a long term feud between the two had so much potential. They feuded for a bit, but it wasn't long term like Austin v Rock, Flair v Dusty, Bret v Shawn, or Tanahashi v Okada. On that note, I'm disappointed Punk didn't get the same thing with Cena either. Those two had AMAZING chemistry.

The silver lining is that with Punk and Bryan's sacrifices things can be better for the new current crop. Eventually, In a place far away, and totally not in this dimension. But there's some hope even if it's small.

Maybe Punk will come back to wrestling eventually? Who knows? I doubt it'll be WWE, but Punk likes money. But indies and NJPW provide that these days.

[Mods Help]

I'm so torn on the Bryan thing. I know it was good for him to retire. But seeing a guy like that have to retire from something he loves so dearly is a biter pill. Never getting the chance to see him wrestle again - I've never seen a bad Bryan/Danielson match - is a bitter pill as well. It's entirely selfish but I cannot help thinking it.

Honestly it makes me want to buy his (and Punk's) ROH dvd set.

[archie4208]

Bryan got me back into rasslin after an ~8 year hiatus, but I'd rather him retire and watch one of his hundreds of great matches than be a wheelchair bound potato 15 years from now.

[Mods Help]

Same here. But being forced to quit something you love beyond forces you cannot control is...sad. And deeply relatable.

[archie4208]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Jericho beats AJ Styles clean on Smackdown.

Fuck 50/50 booking

[close]

[Human Snorenado]

I'm glad to see that the best thing WWE could think to book AJ Styles in is a program with Jericho, wtg Vince and crew

[archie4208]

Don't forget he's a pit bull rookie redneck*

*Who is nearly 40 years old and has been a top Japanese star for the past several years.

I get if WWE doesn't want to mention TNA, but shit at least bring up his other accomplishments (even if you don't bring up NJPW by name).  You make him look like a geek when he should be at least in the upper mid card. 

Roman is going to need new opponents after WM outside of Triple H and Ambrose.  Build up some guys already Jesus.

[Mods Help]

"the hottest free agent in the world" ;etc

aj just wasn't hot in njpw. njpw and roh and other indies made deals and aj participated. guy was the hottest non-wwe wrestler for a minute. in their own way, they're acknowledging it by calling him the "hottest free agent" because to wwe anything non-wwe is a free agent.

tbh i'm more annoyed with people making jokes about aj wrestlnig in packed arenas again. as if the tokyodome, which houses 55k, is small time. Clearly he hasn't done anything since TNA to earn him this amount of hype.

WWE and WWE fans

[Mods Help]

i wouldn't worry about jericho. if cena were active, i'm sure aj would be working a feud with him. jericho is a company guy so they want to see what he can do and all that professionalism that goes with it. I predict he feuds with KO next if KO isn't going to be feuding with Zayn for Mania.

[nachobro]

Don't forget he's a pit bull rookie redneck*

*Who is nearly 40 years old and has been a top Japanese star for the past several years.

I get if WWE doesn't want to mention TNA, but shit at least bring up his other accomplishments (even if you don't bring up NJPW by name).  You make him look like a geek when he should be at least in the upper mid card. 

Roman is going to need new opponents after WM outside of Triple H and Ambrose.  Build up some guys already Jesus.

When he debuted, JBL specifically called out him winning the IWGP title and threw out a "Just like Brock Lesnar" too.

[archie4208]

Meltzer's piece on Bryan in the WON this week gave me feels. 

It's a legit awesome article.

Don't forget he's a pit bull rookie redneck*

*Who is nearly 40 years old and has been a top Japanese star for the past several years.

I get if WWE doesn't want to mention TNA, but shit at least bring up his other accomplishments (even if you don't bring up NJPW by name).  You make him look like a geek when he should be at least in the upper mid card. 

Roman is going to need new opponents after WM outside of Triple H and Ambrose.  Build up some guys already Jesus.

When he debuted, JBL specifically called out him winning the IWGP title and threw out a "Just like Brock Lesnar" too.

And that's the only time I can remember they mentioned his accomplishments.

They should bring that up more often.

[Mods Help]

Post meltzer piece plz

[Mods Help]

Meltzer's piece on Bryan in the WON this week gave me feels. 

It's a legit awesome article.

Read it and wow.

Anyone who questions why Meltzer is considered so important to wrestling should read this. It should be REQUIRED. Thanks Archie.

[bork]

Where can I read it?

[nachobro]

Easily the best wrestling Gif of all time

[archie4208]

romanwinslol

[Human Snorenado]

Jesus fucking shitballs, exactly who in the WWE power structure has the Roman-boner? They tried this same shit last year and it was fucking awful and didn't work. They've learned nothing.

[bork]

Yup, it was so obvious that Reigns was winning.  Because Vince still wants this even though nobody else fucking cares.   

Please get rid of Cole as lead commentator already.  I'm sure Mauro is a much better choice.

[Human Snorenado]

Here's the thing, though: Cena, even though he was shoved down everyone's throats, was believable and at least provoked a reaction ON HIS OWN. People are reacting (if they are at all) to Roman not because of anything he's doing, but because they don't fucking buy him. It feels really different and BS.

[Mods Help]

Wwe blows. Watch alternatives. Never watch wwe unless there's a big event like a big debut.

Average WWE ppv is three - four hour long.

Raw is three hours long.

NXT is one hour long.

Lucha Underground one hour long.

ROH tv one hour long.

NJPW one hour long.

You can get four hours of quality wrestling a week from four different Feds, many of whom actively participate and cross over with each in the time it takes to watch one raw episode.

Stop doing it to yourselves. It's not going to happen.

[Mods Help]

Typically the only wwe programs worth watching are RR, Mania, extreme rules, tlc, and summerslam.

[archie4208]

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Shane McMahon vs Undertaker at HiaC at WM.

[close]

fuck this company.

[Mods Help]

Shane McMahon is back? what brought this on?

[bork]

Shane McMahon is back? what brought this on?

Not enough talent for Mania, I guess?  Very weird return and weird that it's A) Shane against Taker and B) Taker effectively acting as McMahon's flunky here.

For storyline purposes, he came back and demanded to be handed control of the company, with it being implied that he has some dirt on dear ol' dad.

Yeah, WWE, that's what you need-- MORE MCMAHON. 

[archie4208]

Shane McMahon is back? what brought this on?

Not enough talent for Mania, I guess?  Very weird return and weird that it's A) Shane against Taker and B) Taker effectively acting as McMahon's flunky here.

For storyline purposes, he came back and demanded to be handed control of the company, with it being implied that he has some dirt on dear ol' dad.

Yeah, WWE, that's what you need-- MORE MCMAHON. 

I mean they've been doing McMahon drama for nearly 20 years.  What's to a few more? 

[nachobro]

So WM matches we got from Raw tonight:
Shane/Taker HITC
Ambrose/Brock No DQ

I'm very happy with both of those. If there ends up being a Divas Triple Thread (Charlotte/Sasha/Becky) and Styles/Owens for the IC belt, I'll forgive the weak ass main event. I think Shane replacing the Authority as a Face GM/boss figure is a good thing tbh. I can even see this working with Taker not wanting to be Vince's lapdog but still beating the snot out of Shane before pinning himself with an unconscious body or something, I dunno.

Also HHH beat the shit out of Roman and busted his face open tonight and got "Yes" chants. Roman is so fucked by this garbage booking he's getting. The kid has potential but being Vince's project means he's getting pulled in a million directions at once.

[Human Snorenado]

The more I think about it (and I don't know why I keep thinking about it) I think the big issue is they're doing the exact. same. shit. they did with Cena. Superman overcomes the odds! Booooooooring. I think the only time Roman ever got any face heat in all of this was when he snapped and beat the shit out of the League of Nations goons for a week or so. Chairs, ambushes, etc. Of course, in today's WWE, you can't book people that way in general, much less your top face. So, we get the same tired superman shit.

If they had any brains, they'd figure out a way to do a sudden heel turn with Roman, the way they turned Rock heel at that Survivor Series with Foley when the title was vacant and Rock sold out and became Corporate Champ. Shit, it practically writes itself- just pretend HHH gets hurt again, have a tournament for the title, have it end up being old Shield running buddies Ambrose and Reigns in the finals, have HHH run out, and swerve! he levels Ambrose with the sledge instead of Roman. Roman gets on the mic and cuts a bitchy promo saying he's seen the light and will play ball, because all you jerk fans ever did was give him grief.

[Mods Help]

There's nothing wrong with roman as face as a pure idea. what's wrong is how they've handled it. I haven't watched in a while but last I watched they made him use lame ass shit like looney tunes catch phrases to legitimately get a pop. They want him to be The Rock and Cena in one, and no matter how much grief ICW gives Cena the man has talent, especially on the mic. They want him to be this entertaining wise cracking guy when he's fucking made to be a hardass rarely talks gets shit done bad mother fucker. They want him to be superman  and some goodie two shoes hero when he's batman.

Also, he did heel work in nxt and he can heel it up for sure.

WWE writing failure strikes again. they haven't played to his strengths shown in The Shield and NXT. He's not a promo guy. They've exposed him and made his weaknesses full tilt obvious when the entire point of the business is to make people believe these people are real.

[Mods Help]

Cena is that good. There are multiple times when he saves entire segments due to his talent for controlling a crowd. It's just his character is boring and WWE and (mostly) he aren't willing to risk his clout with children with something like a heel turn. Just like how Roman is good playing the silent badass. Both are written poorly because WWE cuts corners and has no idea what they're doing to play it as safe as all possible.

[Mods Help]

It makes no sense to posit that roman can't get over as a silent badass when that's how he got over in the first place. The entire run as the Shield showed all three members' strengths and weaknesses: Ambrose, serious storytelling and high promo ability, low in ring skill but high psychology knowledge, has the talent to steal the show any segment he's in if given the chance; Rollins, above average promo ability, highly charismatic, high in ring ability; Reigns, below average or average promo ability, okay ring ability, great show of force and making you believe he was a complete monster. They learned nothing from it. Fans turned on him when they turned him from silent badass into jokey good guy. Which is also when they were shoving him down our throat. The revisionist history that Reigns was never over is false. He was over as fuck as a silent monster of the Shield.

And nope, Cena is up there. there are multiple times when no one in the ring knows what to do, the segment is backfiring and Cena gets it back on track with a single sentence. It amazes me how much people aren't willing to give him credit for that. Watch  the Daniel Bryan Seattle segment again and Cena is literally the only reason they managed to save that entire thing from being dog food.

[Mods Help]

Cena had the misfortune of coming after people like The Rock and Austin. The Rock is a legend on the stick. Barely anyone is going to be as good as him. But make no mistake, Cena is a great on the mic, he's just not as good as some of his predecessors that were legends in that area which clouds people's views and also because WWE severely limits what he can even say.

He's no Piper, Jake the Snake, Mankind, or Rock but he's definitely better on the mic than Hart, Michaels, and many many many others.

I blame WWE for their complacency and bottom of the barrel writing that has limited Cena's future legacy.

[bork]

a mysterious "RAW vs. WWE" post-Mania event has popped up on Ticketmaster.

http://www.ticketmaster.com/wwe-monday-night-raw-vs-wwe-baltimore-maryland-05-23-2016/event/15004F8AE1514B5C

Because the InVasion angle and brand split ended up working out so well for them the first time around. 

[fistfulofmetal]

This is just the kind of fuckery I needed to become interested again.

[nachobro]

Watching 2002 Smackdowns while I work out lately and the brand split fuckery is actually pretty damn enjoyable

[El Babua]

They had a huge stacked roster and the Brand Split made sense back then.

Smackdown was an amazing show from 2002 to early 04. Heyman booking + Smackdown Six + Vince/Hogan fuckery was sooo good. Not even mentioning Brock going on a tear and the cruiserweight division. Best "pure" wrestling era for the WWE hands down.

The Monday night HHH show on the other hand... 

[nachobro]

Steiner stealing HHH's lunch money for months was funny but yeah that's about it.

Maybe this is how Vince is going to make Smackdown relevant again: by putting himself on it exclusively

[bork]

Maybe this is how Vince is going to make Smackdown relevant again: by putting himself on it exclusively

So pretty much like Smackdown! all over again.  I wonder who will step up to repeat the Vince Vs. Mr. America feud?   

[nachobro]

Who else?

[Mods Help]

Dave Meltzer is right. From Reddit:

Roman Reigns is still set to be the star of the show, in essentially the same position he was in a year ago. Reigns will be going against a WWE champion who is going to be cheered like crazy over him, even though the object of the match is for it to be his breakout performance and solidify him as the top babyface in the company. As of right now, the plan is for Reigns to go over and be the top babyface in the company for years to come. Vince McMahon wants this to be the springboard for several years of Reigns in the position formerly held by John Cena. And it’s very clear he’s not going to be cheered. Of all the wrestlers Reigns could face that would be the biggest drawing opponents for him unless a new guy is elevated to the top level, they are Cena, Undertaker, Brock Lesnar and possibly Dean Ambrose if he’s elevated properly. Probably right underneath that is Seth Rollins. All except Rollins are babyfaces, and there is strong belief the crowd will turn Rollins babyface upon his return, and he’d be more effective in that role. But just by the numbers game, when you’ve got The League of Nations and Kevin Owens as the top heels, and Owens, with the most potential out of that group being the one who doesn’t have a Vince McMahon main eventer look, they may fight to keep Rollins on the heel side. There’s also Randy Orton returning shortly, who is another babyface, but one who is better as a heel.

WWE is coming off a period where the prior top face, John Cena, was routinely booed most weeks on television, heavily in the larger markets, and even more on the big PPV shows. At the same time, nobody in the company moved merchandise, sold tickets, and for much of that period, garnered response, both positive and negative like Cena.

With Reigns, in many ways you have a lesser Cena. His personality isn’t strong. Like with Cena, he’s far from the best or most versatile in-ring performer, but he works hard every night. Like Cena, he can have tremendous matches in main events and then people criticize him as a bad wrestler.

But he is not as big a star as Cena, and this is with years of getting him ready. The audience at Fast Lane and at Raw booed him heavily when he’s supposed to have his most momentum building to his big win. At the same time, he does well in main events at house shows. His merchandise numbers are good, although nowhere near Cena level.

He has the look to be a star and he’s a great athlete who works hard. The problem is, the audience make up of wrestling has changed greatly and the main attributes that people look at to be the top guy, essentially looks, are less important because it’s an audience that for the most part doesn’t care in a money way about looks. But like all entertainment businesses, decisions are made based on looks and the perception that looks are the key factor in being a top star.

Perhaps in another era, based on the standards of that era, Reigns would be the guy to lead the company for the next five years. But no amount of knowing what used to work or thinking what should work can cover up, that today, this didn’t work. You can analyze why, and I’ve heard it from the smartest guys in the business, and some who may not be so smart. But none of those reasons, whether they are right or wrong, changes that no matter how things should have gone, and how crowds should have reacted, they didn’t. And going into WrestleMania, they aren’t going to change, particularly with the audience that travels to that show loving HHH. He’s the guy who gave them their NXT and him clearly wanting that adulation while winking that he’s playing bad guy on television and that the angles on the show don’t count.

But as a part-time wrestler, HHH’s role was to set up the new star, which means losing the title, unless Vince McMahon gets cold feet again. But this time, there’s really no answer. The most popular wrestler, Brock Lesnar, is also part-time. Dean Ambrose isn’t Vince McMahon’s type. They can go back to Cena as the default guy, but they’ve got nobody in developmental right now that that fully fits the standards they want as a new Cena. That’s not to say that putting a likeable character like Sami Zayn in that spot to today’s audience that it may not work. It probably will. But that requires Vince McMahon to see wrestling as something different than he sees it.

And at this point, it doesn’t seem to matter. Business is what business is. There are no major difference makers, except maybe for a unique match here and there. Whether Roman Reigns or Sami Zayn or Dean Ambrose is the face of the company, it’ s not 1987 when you change the world champion and put the wrong guy with the belt and business goes to hell. The story of the last several years has been the struggle between the hardcore fans and the decision makers relying on what the standards once were and aren’t any longer. And in the end, none of this seems to have any bearing on the bottom line.

And great top comment on reddit:

I just don't understand why there needs to be one guy. It's much more entertaining when there are 3-5 guys who are all the "top" guy. Can you imagine Austin without Vince or Rock? I mean, if there's only one guy, then there is no story to tell. That's the problem right now. There's no story being told. The only story is "hey, pretend like Roman isn't going to win so we can surprise you when he does lolol".

[Mods Help]

Also, another reason why they don't more than one top guy is the fact that Vince doesn't want any one star to transcend the company. When Rock got so big he outgrew WWE, it's pretty clear Vince didn't want that to happen ever again. Same for Brock.

And that's why you don't watch WWE unless it's NXT.