Auto Bailout

[brawndolicious]

Oil rigs require engineers, operators, maintenance, aka lots of personnel in addition to the increased shipping and port personnel. The petroleum industry probably employs more people and probably at better jobs than the auto industry. Why not subsidize them?

Because American cities would not be all that devastated by not having more oil rigs off shore or in Alaska.

I'd imagine that the average oil rig operator, engineer, etc. is used to traveling around.

[Beardo]

But think of the middle class jobs. Why do you hate the middle class so?

SMH @ double standards

[recursivelyenumerable]

before I read your spoiler text I was all set to reply with "usually those parts concerned with situations featuring a small set of economic actors aka oligopoly/oligopsony"

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I am especially sad to be deprived of a chance to use the word "oligopsony" which is so cool my spellchecker doesn't even know it

[close]

[Mandark]

The petroleum industry probably employs more people and probably at better jobs than the auto industry.

Wait, I thought the problem was that the UAW had strongarmed the Big Three into providing jobs that were too good, making their business model unsustainable.

 

[brawndolicious]

But think of the middle class jobs. Why do you hate the middle class so?

SMH @ double standards

Because the middle class isn't just any job in a certain tax bracket.

[Beardo]

My dad worked his whole life in the oil industry and lol @ typical jobs being better than auto jobs.

I wasn't talking about janitors. 

[Beardo]

The petroleum industry probably employs more people and probably at better jobs than the auto industry.

Wait, I thought the problem was that the UAW had strongarmed the Big Three into providing jobs that were too good, making their business model unsustainable.

I meant that the petroleum industry hires more engineers and less assembly line workers.

[Beardo]

What did your dad do? My university had a whole department and building for petroleum, i dont know of any college that has an automotive department.

[Beardo]

They didn't have a mechanical engineering department??? Biggest engineering department at my wife's school.  weird.

Yeah I bet all the UAW members have mechanical engineer degrees. LOL

[Mandark]

i dont know of any college that has an automotive department.

Allow me to assist you.


Plus what Cohen said.

[Mandark]

Dude, they had a building for petroleum.

A building.

[Mandark]

Total number of engineers employed by industry, as of the most recent data in 2001:

Oil and gas extraction  13,000

Motor vehicles and equipment  26,100


BLSFTW.

[Bocsius]

Beardo is like 19, living at home and/or a dorm, and the most major bill he's ever paid in his life is his auto insurance bill, right? Other than that, no responsibilities? Spends 12-3 (ET) listening to Rush Limbaugh because what else would a guy be doing during that time? Because he argues like I did when I fit all those metrics. Then I got of college and entered the real world.

[Beardo]

Total number of engineers employed by industry, as of the most recent data in 2001:

Oil and gas extraction  13,000

Motor vehicles and equipment  26,100

Pulling shit out of your ass again I see.


Petroleum is far far bigger than just "oil and gas extraction" I'll help you out, after extraction there is transportation and then refining. Both are huge parts of the process, but I guess you think they just drill for it and then bring it to your gas station. 

And all the products made from petroleum like PVC are an added part to the sector.


OMBBB! MANDARK JUST GOT OWNED

[Bocsius]

Are the facts of oil being an environmental concern and increased domestic drilling would only serve to reinforce our addiction to it lost upon you?

[Beardo]

Back to my point. Why be hypocritical and support one industry and not another. Clearly the petroleum industry is competent enough to not run them selves into the ground They employ middle class people. If you can argue for the auto bailout on the claim that we need to help middle class people, then you have to argue for allowing drilling offshore and in Alaska because of all the middle class jobs it will create. Not only that, but "allowing them to drill off shores" wont cost taxpayers $100 billion or however much you guys think they need.

So here are the two examples.

1. Bailout one industry that has been slowly failing over the past decade by giving them billions of Taxpayers dollars.
2. Allow off shore drilling and drilling on American soil to allow for cheaper energy and more jobs, not costing the taxpayers anything.


Please justify supporting #1 without supporting #2.

Are the facts of oil being an environmental concern and increased domestic drilling would only serve to reinforce our addiction to it lost upon you?

But the American auto makers make the biggest gas guzzlers on the planet. You are supporting them right?

[Brehvolution]

Jan. 20th is taking for fucking ever to get here.

Obama needs to bitch slap these spineless democrats.

"Oh, you don't like that measure republicans? Ok, we'll drop it and move forward."

SMH

[drew]

yay

[Bocsius]

Are the facts of oil being an environmental concern and increased domestic drilling would only serve to reinforce our addiction to it lost upon you?

But the American auto makers make the biggest gas guzzlers on the planet. You are supporting them right?

Part of the bailout legislation was geared to force tighter emission / fuel economy standards on the big three and it just so happens that my fellow Republicans are actively trying to remove those clauses from the legislation. Go go GOP. Fight for the little people oil execs.

[Beardo]

Do you think the big three will produce more fuel efficiant cars like the hybrid when this is passed?

[tiesto]

Based on what I know, the bailout makes sense, but there must be the stipulation that the big 3 need to make more energy efficient cars. What do you guys think should happen with the UAW?

[Beardo]

Do you think the big three will produce more fuel efficiant cars like the hybrid when this is passed?

They damn well better.  I'm pretty sure the government insists on it.

And everything that the government insists should happen will happen?

This is what I foresee happening. The big three promise to make better cars, promise to hire more Americans etc... They take our money. In 5-10 years they are in front of congress explaining what went wrong. Nobody bought their cars, the economy was bad etcc.. and then at the end they will ask the taxpayers for even more money. Maybe I'm too cynical.

[Mupepe]

Back to my point. Why be hypocritical and support one industry and not another. Clearly the petroleum industry is competent enough to not run them selves into the ground They employ middle class people. If you can argue for the auto bailout on the claim that we need to help middle class people, then you have to argue for allowing drilling offshore and in Alaska because of all the middle class jobs it will create. Not only that, but "allowing them to drill off shores" wont cost taxpayers $100 billion or however much you guys think they need.

So here are the two examples.

1. Bailout one industry that has been slowly failing over the past decade by giving them billions of Taxpayers dollars.
2. Allow off shore drilling and drilling on American soil to allow for cheaper energy and more jobs, not costing the taxpayers anything.


Please justify supporting #1 without supporting #2.

Not jumping into this argument, this is just a thought.  I wonder if the big oil and gasline corporations will be able to sustain their workforce, wages and pensions when the oil industry really starts to struggle.  The Big Three were fine until foreign competition and a change in markets hit. 

[Mandark]

Manufacturing - Petroleum and coal products  4,600

Wholesale trade -  Petroleum and petroleum products  400

Gasoline service stations  100



Of course, if we're going to include the attendant industries...


Automotive dealers and service stations   1,100

Auto repair, services, and parking   500

Wholesale trade - Motor vehicles, parts, and supplies  1,300



corrected in edit (I was awarding an extra ~9,000 jobs to the petroleum industry)

[patrickula]

I'm not worried about the big 3 (well, Ford and GM anyway) taking the money and then not making better cars because they ALREADY ARE making better cars in recent times AND in the near future.

GM and Ford's real problem's are organizational ones, as well as a lingering (and previously justified) image problem which none of this is helping in the least.

btw how about the house Republicans' alternate bill 

[Mandark]

btw how about the house Republicans' alternate bill 

Oh lordy I haven't heard about this.  What's it entail?

[Bocsius]

Probably gives tax breaks to the auto execs.

[patrickula]

btw how about the house Republicans' alternate bill 

Oh lordy I haven't heard about this.  What's it entail?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/1208/House_GOP_proposes_autoindustryfunded_insurance_program.html

"Rather than a taxpayer-funded government bailout that replaces private investment,," explains a leadership memo, "the House GOP plan proposes that the government provide insurance, funded by the participants with a modest FDIC-like fee, which would cover up to 50 percent of the losses of new investment in the case of default, helping to unlock immediate private investment."

So instead of the government loaning the big 3 money, instead it will insure 50% of new private investment... because GM stock would be so much more appealing that way.

[Beardo]

Probably gives tax breaks to the auto execs.

Yeah thats so much worse than giving them 15 billion dollars.


@Mandark, Im still not sure where you are puling all those numbers from. Stuff like this means nothing

Manufacturing - Petroleum and coal products  4,600

Because there are more Petroleum manufacturing jobs in the Houston port area alone.

[Beardo]

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/table2.pdf

This?

I didnt see any engineers listed under Motor Vehicle manufacturing.   

[Mandark]

For the record, I'm using http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf05313/

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/table2.pdf

This?

I didnt see any engineers listed under Motor Vehicle manufacturing.   

I didnt see any engineers listed under Motor Vehicle manufacturing.   

I didnt see any engineers listed under Motor Vehicle manufacturing.   

...

[Joe Molotov]

But the building!

[ToxicAdam]

Use lube next time. Think about the precious blood vessels you are rupturing.


off topic, but does any just sit there and stare at Blagojevich's hair? It seems impossible that a man his age could possess such a helmet of hair.

[siamesedreamer]

I'm jealous of it.

Also, I've seen one pic of his wife where she looked fantastic - kinda in the mold of Kate Bekinsale. But, all the others I've seen of her she's slightly ugly.

[siamesedreamer]

The only point of this bill is to buy the DEMs time to pass Card Check so the UAW will have an upper hand when the next debate happens in March/April. Its sickening Bush is going along with it (but completely expected) and its awesome how the GOP seems to want to fillibuster the fuck out of it. 

[The Fake Shemp]

I almost want to archive this.

[Eric P]

looks like we need a beardo bailout

[The Fake Shemp]

Think of the posting jobs we'd lose if we didn't bailout Beardo.

[Eric P]

we would soon be overrun with japanese posters

or worse, posters from japan moving to america

[Eric P]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/12auto.html

no bailout

beardo prevails!

[Joe Molotov]

I have some alternative car designs I need to start working on pronto. To the toolshed!

[Brehvolution]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/12auto.html

no bailout

beardo prevails!

War on the middle class continues. Labor costs are less than 10% of a vehicles price but let's cut their wages to the same as foreign companies pay their employees?!?

[Beardo]

Not taking middle class tax money and giving it to the shitty companies.   

[TakingBackSunday]

Thus killing said middle class

[Brehvolution]

It's happening regardless.

Maybe I can be middle class again when I'm 45.

[Van Cruncheon]

now it's not happening: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/

unions are refusing to agree to wage cuts

well, they're gonna get their wages cut anyway, good jon nascar america

america fucked

[Bocsius]

Yep, unions will have their wages cut 100% at this rate.

There's something to be said about how much union workers are paid by the big three. But there's also something to be said about how much those executives are being paid. It's hard to tell Joe the Assembly Line Worker to take a cut when the CEO is making 100x Joe's salary.

[huckleberry]

 



I guess it is on now. 


Fuck.

[Van Cruncheon]

2 GREAT 2 DEPRESSING

[Bocsius]

So after the auto industry goes belly up, what will be left that Americans make? Hamburgers? Is that about it?

[Van Cruncheon]

talk radio hosts and teenaged serial killers

[Bocsius]

And television crime dramas.

America

[huckleberry]

My brother lives in Detroit and works for the auto industry (not UAW). 

I hope he doesn't have bad news when he comes down for Christmas.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

My roommate works for a railroad company and a lot of laborers are "laying down" (not working) their shifts to protest the job cuts that are going to come here soon.  As a result, there are now several hour delays for deliveries.

Shit is getting close to hitting the fan.

[Bocsius]

That's a great idea.

"You may lay me off, and guess what? I'm going to make your decision that much easier!"

[TakingBackSunday]

This shit is just depressing

[TakingBackSunday]

Whoever loses, the free market wins

err...wait

[Bocsius]

Asian markets are down 6.5-7% right now.

[Van Cruncheon]

tomorrow is gonna be a bad day for the dow

thanks, republicans

[TakingBackSunday]

Don't worry, the invisible hand of the free market will guide us through