Is the world burning?

[Cerveza mas fina]

My argument (no critical thought):

-Mass violent protest during a pandemic is a bad idea that will hit the communities that protest the hardest, it would be best to channel this somehow differently. Police is clearly at fault here for the murder and systematic discrimination and this should change.

Your argument (deep critical thought):

-Violence is the only way to change things, other things have failed, revolution! If you are against this you are a racist!

[naff]

kosma has been so consistently cringe since I joined here a decade ago I feel bad even acknowledging his existence

[Mr Gilhaney]

https://twitter.com/robferdman/status/1267555994709655553


 

[naff]

 sounds like a death squad

[Pissy F Benny]

hoping for a trashy run in so we can witness the formation of the super fash bros

[Mr Gilhaney]

Btw playing the race card over this is 

Even my avatar is making fun of white coronabro for months now, thats ok of course. But when I say these protests are dumb thats racism 

I dont think you are racist either (I mean swarte piet is just culture), but it's proably just not the time for us to act enlightened here. I mean, I also live in Denmark and white as fuck, and despite a few incidents with police in the country, it's hard to understand the whole acab rhetoric, when they are overwhelmingly a positive where you live, let alone all the emotions that leads to this. So of course it seems a bit weird, when people go out to risk their lives both due to violence and the rona, and possibly creating even more divide. But obviously this is many fucking years of oppressed feelings. This is where we sit back and make memes instead. 


Anyway want to go loot Elgiganten with me?

[thisismyusername]

After these riots there is a (good) chance Trump will get reelected.

Nothing to change some allies and undecided people into enemies then some "if you are not with us then you are against us and a racist" rhetoric and seeing your country burn.

I'll be the one to agree in a sense: Riots do have a voting affect. There's been studies done on this...

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/will-todays-riots-spur-electoral-backlash-like-1967s.html

I however don't agree in the sense that "Trump will win, for sure." I was 80% sure of it when Bernie dropped out (#NoTNoShade) but now? I'm about 60-65% sure. It's iffy only because a lot of folks in America are tired of the police and the system abuse of the police.

Now where I'll agree with you on "Trump will win," is that it depends on white folks. Do they balk at the riots in greater numbers than the ones that agree? Hard to say. They may, but I can't say with any certainty that they do right now.

Will they vote in greater numbers than the other races/PoC/whatever you want to put as a term here? Eh... maybe? Thing is, whites are a declining majority with birthrates/etc. But that point hasn't been reached yet, if research/estimations are holding (IIRC, it's another 4 election cycles away? 2040-2050 or so before the White Majority is a minority in America).

Trump is doing a dismal job, everyone knows it. The question is: Will his voting base turn out to vote him again MORE than the folks that want to get him out. AND know the Electorial College system (aka: Midwest gets bigger votes than NYC/NY state) to beat because "popular vote ain't shit!" like Gore and Clinton should have drilled into the folks head after the previous 20 years that had them lose despite popular vote.

That's where I get my 65% confidence in that: The "rural" states are the ones that generally probably won't see too much brutality. Yeah, Michigan and Minnasota have seen it, but smaller towns generally don't. That's where the question of "is the message hitting?" comes to. Do those rural places that maybe have 1-2 cops seeing them understand that those cops MAY not be as good as they appear? *shrug* Can't say. Depends on if the message sticks until November, 4-5 months away.

BUT ANYWAY: You're Polish/non-American. Like Trashy (and Sage): You should shut the fuck up. Because the police brutality issue going on in America doesn't affect your day-to-day.

[bork]

Trump is doing a dismal job, everyone knows it. The question is: Will his voting base turn out to vote him again MORE than the folks that want to get him out. AND know the Electorial College system (aka: Midwest gets bigger votes than NYC/NY state) to beat because "popular vote ain't shit!" like Gore and Clinton should have drilled into the folks head after the previous 20 years that had them lose despite popular vote.

He's going to win again.  I don't want him to.  I don't support him at all- but he's going to get re-elected. 

And I hope to be wrong on this.

 

[Mandark]

Since when do looters and rioters not deserve to be shot?

lmao

[BisMarckie]

Libertarian argues for excessive force by the state. You love to see it.

[headwalk]

i'm just a distinguished mentally-challenged fellowed johnny foreigner but to me it seems a police body of paramilitary dickheads with itchy trigger fingers is the natural ying to the yang of an armed population in a nation with chasmic wealth disparity. black people bear the brunt of it, but their treatment is a symptom. as long as large numbers of them live in shitty areas flooded with guns, even if the cops suddenly awakened into a colourblind state of racial enlightenment, i'm not sure how much the situation would change statistically. there could be sweeping reforms enacted and all it would take is one cop taking one in the chest on a routine call and any adherence to a sentiment of calm resolve is fucked off entirely.

it's a system set up to fail. a perfect storm that ensures the worst sort of people become cops and find justification in using the worst methods.

but as i said, none of my business really.

[Mandark]

The state exists to shoot citizens

it's called miniarchism bro look it up

[Pissy F Benny]

You can never underestimate racism in America in any situation. You also have to count/hope for Republicans not to just not vote, because you aren't ever going to get an appreciable number of Republican voters to actually vote for Biden or any Democrat regardless of the circumstances. There's absolutely still a significant chance for Trump to get re-elected in this country, literally no matter what happens between now and November.

Not if he dies first

[headwalk]

I'm still  at the church photo op. Never have I seen such a completely shameless, worthless, and hollow piece of political theater. All they wanted was to be able to have the pictures for propaganda purposes but the whole world got to see the behind the scenes set up and execution as it happened, they don't give a shit that everyone saw it for what it was in real time, and then they still put out all the pictures and that video like we didn't all just see what was going on and acknowledged it was such bullshit.


He literally didn't say anything, didn't even know how to hold a fucking book, at one point was holding it upside down.

you're not the target audience. those who are are will actually like the fact he tear gassed a bunch of kids just to do it, bringing back warm memories of seeing tree hugging deviants getting laid out by the boys in blue in the 60s.

the only way trump loses his base is if he loses control and they see him as a soft touch, everything else that has transpired will only solidify the voting lines.

[Mandark]

He literally didn't say anything, didn't even know how to hold a fucking book, at one point was holding it upside down. The entire point of the propaganda was to let people know he was doing this for propaganda.

It only hit me about an hour ago that he didn't read a passage.

[Positive Touch]

*argues for the state to do the job the state exists to perform in the first place.

There have been examples posted online that do appear at first look to be incompetent or needless enforcement on the part of police, yes. Of course, if they were competent there wouldn't be so much burning and destruction this many days later.  So no, simply exercising your right to assemble or your right to speech doesn't ever warrant the use of force against you. 

As soon as you start aggressively violating the rights of others, it's literally their raison d'etre to stop you, though.  And they have to try to stop these people or there's no point in having a state at all.



Reading these pages has been incredibly frustrating and makes me wonder what alien planet you people are from.

hey jay four cops got shot in my city last night how awesome do you think that is

[Positive Touch]

ah no, i've been out there plenty of times. don't get jealous

[bork]

Not nearly as awesome as if you got shot, fam.

Let's not go there.

[BisMarckie]

*argues for the state to do the job the state exists to perform in the first place.

There have been examples posted online that do appear at first look to be incompetent or needless enforcement on the part of police, yes. Of course, if they were competent there wouldn't be so much burning and destruction this many days later.  So no, simply exercising your right to assemble or your right to speech doesn't ever warrant the use of force against you. 

As soon as you start aggressively violating the rights of others, it's literally their raison d'etre to stop you, though.  And they have to try to stop these people or there's no point in having a state at all.



Reading these pages has been incredibly frustrating and makes me wonder what alien planet you people are from.

The use of potentially lethal force is defined by every lawful state as an ultima ratio and thus has to be used proportionally. Shooting rioters armed with bottles and rocks has not once been deemed proportional.

[Mandark]

Not nearly as awesome as if you got shot, fam.  Unfortunately you only seem to be a keyboard warrior when it comes to thuggery.

First sentence say you want to kill a poster.

Second sentence accuse him of being a "keyboard warrior."

[Madrun Badrun]

I've been watching CNN for the first time in years - or any American news network.  I think I'm starting to understand why America is so fucked up.  You guys need more BBC in your lives.

Eh... didn’t BBC had some big controversies this past decade?

If the BBC spent one day acting as partisan and biased as CNN, that would be their biggest scandal yet and they covered up that their most famous children's' performer was a child rapist for decades.

The same bbc who’s political editor is basically head of Tory PR at this point?

Britain is basically a one-party state at this point, so this makes sense. 

[naff]

guessing jaydubya thinks the unionists and brits should've killed all those pesky catholic nationalists during the troubles too

[Mandark]

If you fight back or attempt to get away then the police can use just defensive force to stop you so you can be made to make reparations for the damage you caused, return what you stole, etc.

you're not actually allowed to shoot someone who's running away just cause you believe they committed a property crime

[Madrun Badrun]

BUT ANYWAY: You're Polish/non-American. Like Trashy (and Sage): You should shut the fuck up. Because the police brutality issue going on in America doesn't affect your day-to-day.

This is wrong.  American politics affects just about everyone in the world in ways that a lot of Americans do not understand or think about. 

[Mandark]

You have the natural human right to liberty

how do we know those rights exist?

[Pissy F Benny]

i wish occam was here to shit on the feeble minded american banana republic bitches

[Mandark]

how do we know those rights exist?

[BisMarckie]

The state drugged me to sign the social contract 

[Joe Molotov]

https://twitter.com/NewsGuyGreg/status/1267650835636531200

The looting has gone too far.  :'( :'( :'( :'(

[BisMarckie]

READ SETTLERS LEVIATHAN

[Nintex]

I'm still  at the church photo op. Never have I seen such a completely shameless, worthless, and hollow piece of political theater. All they wanted was to be able to have the pictures for propaganda purposes but the whole world got to see the behind the scenes set up and execution as it happened, they don't give a shit that everyone saw it for what it was in real time, and then they still put out all the pictures and that video like we didn't all just see what was going on and acknowledged it was such bullshit.


He literally didn't say anything, didn't even know how to hold a fucking book, at one point was holding it upside down.

you're not the target audience. those who are are will actually like the fact he tear gassed a bunch of kids just to do it.

But....it didn't make any kind of statement (either literally or in the political messaging sense) of any kind other. There's nothing for even the target audience to get from it because it was entirely hollow.

Trump owned the libs by walking to the church after general barr teargassed them lmao or so the twitter cult of smug claims.

Whatever he did was enough law and order

They now think Trump is more bad ass than Nixon who resigned

[Great Rumbler]

Sure beats being a stan for government overreach. What's next? You want to take away freedom of speech?

What's next? A licence to protest in my own damn toaster?!

[BIONIC]

*argues for the state to do the job the state exists to perform in the first place.

There have been examples posted online that do appear at first look to be incompetent or needless enforcement on the part of police, yes. Of course, if they were competent there wouldn't be so much burning and destruction this many days later.  So no, simply exercising your right to assemble or your right to speech doesn't ever warrant the use of force against you. 

As soon as you start aggressively violating the rights of others, it's literally their raison d'etre to stop you, though.  And they have to try to stop these people or there's no point in having a state at all.



Reading these pages has been incredibly frustrating and makes me wonder what alien planet you people are from.

The use of potentially lethal force is defined by every lawful state as an ultima ratio and thus has to be used proportionally. Shooting rioters armed with bottles and rocks has not once been deemed proportional.

Let me tell you about a major Western ally called Israel 

[BisMarckie]

Let me tell you about a major Western ally called Israel 

A lawful state (Rechtsstaat)  is an idealized construct based on the writing of Kant. Almost every real state has tried to justify killing unarmed protesters and rioters.

[BisMarckie]

poopoo caca

[Positive Touch]

no reason to debate jay because we all know if it was some of those covid protesters or proud boys getting their ass beat by cops for whatever reason, he'd be on here screeching about government overreach

jay, you don't have to keep going with all this nonsense logic. just say you hate Black people. we can all see it; you don't have to hide bro

[BisMarckie]

poopoo caca

SMH, what about peepee?

peepee is a third way corporate shill

[BisMarckie]

What about government overreach on personal issues like abortion. Minimalist state,huh?

[Madrun Badrun]

https://7news.com.au/news/north-america/prime-minister-scott-morrison-calls-for-investigation-after-7news-reporter-and-cameraman-assaulted-in-us-riots-c-1074160

[Mandark]

jd's posts elide a ton of shit that actually went down and isn't in dispute, mainly force being used by the state against nonviolent protesters who were exercising their right to assemble. folks getting teargassed outside of curfew hours so a political leader can stand in front of a church is pretty hard to shoehorn into a framework of natural rights.

he's left mostly abstracting events so that they fit more comfortably into his worldview, an action which mirrors pretty neatly the simplifications and bowdlerization of human behavior that underpins neoclassical economics

[Nintex]

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1267808120136511489
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1267811637811187712
 

[ToxicAdam]

"Words mean things" ?


JayDubya is now an "optics" guy?  2020 is really getting wild.

[BisMarckie]

Thank you President Trump! 

 

[Nintex]

Shooting a dude in the head should be a last resort and avoided at all times.
Not like "oh well he came at me with a stolen playstation and a gucci bag so I executed him on the spot"

Thank you President Trump! 

 

Putin, Assad, Erdogan and Kim have nothing on this guy.

[Mandark]

iirc jd once called joss whedon a "radical female supremacist" and nobody even reacted to it because it was just grandpa yelling at clouds again

[BisMarckie]

Punished "woke" Nintex

[Madrun Badrun]

https://twitter.com/AlexCTaliadoros/status/1267672002355216389

[kingv]

Sure beats being a stan for government overreach. What's next? You want to take away freedom of speech?

No. You have the natural human right to liberty, more specifically in this case to believe and express the hot garbage that you believe and express - it's the duty of the state to protect that right against aggression, even though you laud aggressive force and have no respect for the rights of others.

It comes down to specific incidents, really.  Whenever it can be demonstrated that the police - through incompetence or bad faith malice - shut down peaceful protest, the police responsible should be punished.  On the other hand, they have an absolute obligation to put down destructive riots and looting.

So what you're saying is you trust the government and want to give them more power especially as far as shutting citizens down.

Cool. Weren't you libertarian? I'm pretty sure you're not.

Jaydubya is just that conservative guy who says provocative shit to get people mad, but doesn’t really have any kind of consistent ideology. It’s completely reflexive to what libtards think at that given moment.

[Mandark]

they should arrest everyone involved

jd backpedaling from summary executions so we're making progress folks

[Madrun Badrun]

Think every libertarian argument I have ever seen eventually leads to analogies with home invasion. 

[Madrun Badrun]

https://twitter.com/industrialmonk/status/1267815294526910471

[Mr Gilhaney]

https://twitter.com/LuisSuarez9/status/460872117647835136 

[Joe Molotov]

Think every libertarian argument I have ever seen eventually leads to analogies with home invasion. 

What about Age of Consent?

[Madrun Badrun]

Think every libertarian argument I have ever seen eventually leads to analogies with home invasion. 

What about Age of Consent?

If you let someone in they are a guest, if you don't they are a criminal.  Doesn't matter how old the child opening the door is. 

[Madrun Badrun]

Jaydubya is just that conservative guy who says provocative shit to get people mad, but doesn’t really have any kind of consistent ideology. It’s completely reflexive to what college intellectuals think at that given moment.

You believe what you want, but it's really not true.

I have put rather a lot of thought into logical consistency; I've scrutinized and changed my views over the years until I could be satisfied with the resulting framework, and that framework has endured through testing it in debate.  Examples include abandoning orthodox conservative stances on a variety of laws against victimless crimes, or becoming less tolerant of the welfare state in all its forms, including those that a mainstream Republican would tolerate.  And why?  Because I couldn't square those circles anymore - they just didn't fit.

Also, unfortunately I have a strong SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET impulse.  I'm not a provocateur or at least I have no desire to be one; on the contrary, I found reading this thread quite provocative and frustrating.

I was going to say that you have been posting here for 10 years and not made a single friend, surely there has to be some libertarian forum that will accept you for who you are.  But seems like I got my answer. 

[Madrun Badrun]

https://twitter.com/davechensky/status/1267699609079443457

[CatsCatsCats]

“ Being real mad about the conduct of a specific policeman”

Can’t believe y’all let JDub off the hook for this line. I blame Mandark the Coward. WhAt iS PaTtErn ReCoGnItiOn

[Positive Touch]

i always knew this guy was a dumbass but jfc

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/BenjaminPDixon/status/1267822924565643264

messagebore:

[Beezy]

https://twitter.com/istudypandas/status/1267494772949696513