Is the world burning?

[Mandark]

You know the fancy Latin names they give to various logical fallacies? Ought to be one that means "argumentation by pretending to not grok obvious things."

[Positive Touch]

the whole argument is disingenuous as fuck come on man be embarrassed for yourself

[team filler]

'but if you put up a bunch of statues of him'

They are not talking about old depictions of him in stain glass, they are talking about a novel change in depiction, and as far as I know,, statues of just satan are not really something churchs have.  Also, again, you are ignoring what a statue of satan means in current social context.

No, I'm not defending confeserate statues, but that twitter argument is weak as fuck, because there are a bunch of depictions in satan in old churches and modern christians don't really give a fuck about trying to tear them down because its 'bad optics' to todays church values, because those depictions all have artistic, cultural or historical value.

It's a crazy flawed metaphor; I'm not defending the thing its a metaphor for by pointing out the obvious flaws in the metaphor chosen.

Again, you are missing the point.  All depictions of satan are not the same.  Just because you have one does not make the other ok.  If I go to church and start putting up statues of satan that do not fit with historical depictions, people are going to ask about my intent for putting up the statues.  I doubt I could defend this by saying 'its just a statue of satan like that stain glass window'.

No, I get the point that tweet is trying to make.
The point he's actually making is if you go into a Christian church, you could say "Man, they fucking hate that jesus dude, look at all these images of him being tortured to death there are, they must really be into that shit. He must be the worst dude ever".

Its a bad analogy

did j chrizzle own slavs or genocide india?

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

You know the fancy Latin names they give to various logical fallacies? Ought to be one that means "argumentation by pretending to not grok obvious things."

Its not really disingeuous to say that if the premise of your analogy is to remove all context and just report what you see as being what contemporary beliefs are, that christian symbolism removed of all context as per the thought experiment looks like celebrating the death of jesus is it?

The fact we all know that it doesnt say that is because of context.

If you guys think ita great analogy, you do you, but I think its pretty fucking bad for the reasons that I have stated - and, to reiterate, for, what, the third time? I am not endorsing the subject it is an analogy for by saying it is a poor analogy,

[Mandark]

No analogy is perfect, but the one in the tweet is way better than your posts.

[jakefromstatefarm]

The point he's actually making is if you go into a Christian church, you could say "Man, they fucking hate that jesus dude, look at all these images of him being tortured to death there are, they must really be into that shit. He must be the worst dude ever".

i genuinely have no idea how you read that from the tweet. the only important factors here are the dispositions of the people who make the depiction and the stance people for whom the work was intended take to the depiction. both of those groups are christian. the detached, ignorant observer plays no role here. this is actually a great example of how the normative commitments of the people who produce and the normative commitments of the people who consume art are indispensable in understanding the civic role of art

I don't know why the argument against seeing statues seems to have become one of seeing them solely through an idolatory lens?

because, throughout history, monument building has been practiced for the express purpose of pushing some agenda. thats really all there is to it

[Raist]

No need to invoke good old Lucifer, the bible contains a metric fuckton of despicable shit

[CatsCatsCats]

Bork better close this thread before the dunks start

[team filler]

[GreatSageEqualOfHeaven]

because, throughout history, monument building has been practiced for the express purpose of pushing some agenda. thats really all there is to it

I fundamentally disagree that monuments have 'agendas' outside of marking a piece of history.
Artists might, commissioning bodies might, audiences might, and all of those agendas might even be at odds with each other, but ultimately a monuments purpose is as a bookmark for history.

[Madrun Badrun]

With the way Brazil is going, we might see some rioters with pickup trucks take down Christ the Redeemer in 2020.

[Joe Molotov]

liberal truckers

[Madrun Badrun]

because, throughout history, monument building has been practiced for the express purpose of pushing some agenda. thats really all there is to it

I fundamentally disagree that monuments have 'agendas' outside of marking a piece of history.
Artists might, commissioning bodies might, audiences might, and all of those agendas might even be at odds with each other, but ultimately a monuments purpose is as a bookmark for history.

I think we can all agree that inanimate objects don't have agendas, but the people relevent to the objects might. 

[Mandark]

I fundamentally disagree that monuments have 'agendas' outside of marking a piece of history.
Artists might, commissioning bodies might, audiences might, and all of those agendas might even be at odds with each other, but ultimately a monuments purpose is as a bookmark for history.

So all the actual humans who are involved in creating, funding, and placing a statue may have an agenda, but those don't really matter and there's an actual, real purpose to the statue which exists independently of those people.

Sounds legit.

[jakefromstatefarm]

ultimately a monuments purpose is as a bookmark for history.

why do we care about bookmarking history?

ill echo arvie here and say we’re all agreed that people are the ones with agendas

[Joe Molotov]

Seeing people try to defend Confederate monuments built in Texas in the 1950's is like  yeah okay dude.

[BisMarckie]

bis, and i mean this as gently as possible, you wouldnt happen to hail from some part of the former DDR, would you?

Don’t read anything into obvious shitposts.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

No

[close]

[Madrun Badrun]

In his defense, he is not for confederate monuments, he is just upset with the analogy since if you strip all context from Christian iconism relevant to the anology, it is in fact illogical. 

By coincidence, stripping context from confederate iconism is a dog whistle for racists - but, as he has said, that's not what he is doing.

[BisMarckie]

[
I fundamentally disagree that monuments have 'agendas' outside of marking a piece of history.
Artists might, commissioning bodies might, audiences might, and all of those agendas might even be at odds with each other, but ultimately a monuments purpose is as a bookmark for history.

This is completely false. You can’t detach monuments from their intent. Why do you think monuments of Arminiu popped up all of a sudden after German unification in 1871?
It‘s completely myopic to detach monuments from their intent. There is an entire field of history dedicated to this very same thing.

[Positive Touch]

love to sculpt 12 foot tall stone effigies as a conversation starter

[Madrun Badrun]

[Mandark]

love to sculpt 12 foot tall stone effigies as a conversation starter

They're just bookmarks so people don't forget.

That's why Staples Center doesn't just have statues of Jerry West, Shaq, Magic, etc. but also Kwame Brown and Smush Parker.

[Joe Molotov]

We need to put up more Hitler statues so we don't forget about WWII.

[BisMarckie]

They better have a statue auf Kwame Brown, they used that stiff for the lopsided Pau Gasol trade which netted fraud Kobe two more rings

[BisMarckie]

We need to put up more Hitler statues so we don't forget about WWII.

That’s why there are still so many statues of Kaiser Wilhelm II. around

[BisMarckie]

Can‘t wait for the Bore sponsored monument of Evilore.

[Coffee Dog]

All statues are propoganda and we shouldn't build more. Just tear down the ones that piss people off over the years as they become
increasingly outdated.

[Madrun Badrun]

What if monuments are bookmarks for time travelers.   Like without them, they would have to start at the beginning and flip through the years, stopping every once in a while to ask locals the time.   

Obviously, this is not a perfect analogy because some books have indices. 

[Nintex]

If you want to find groups in support of taking down statues and other historic artifacts and monuments
you end up at Lenin, the Nazi's, Mao, ISIS, the Taliban, Right Sector and John Bolton.

I suppose the idea isn't so radical
 

[Mandark]

If you want to find groups in support of taking down statues and other historic artifacts and monuments
you end up at Lenin, the Nazi's, Mao, ISIS, the Taliban, Right Sector and John Bolton.

oh shit that's deep

I wonder what sort of groups built statues

[Nintex]

John Bolton and the Taliban?

The Taliban demolished the largest Buddha statues that were still preserved.
Bolton wanted the statues of Saddam toppled.

[BisMarckie]

John Bolton and the Taliban?

Before or after the US funded them? I feel that’s an important distinction to make before accusing John Bolton being out there smashing statues with his Taliban buddies.

[BisMarckie]

Lenin,

[BisMarckie]

More like Micropeen of Rhodes

[Nintex]

Let's have a genocide it is every bit a human tradition as medicine is

[BisMarckie]

Can’t believe that some people ( beyond the scope of this forum) don’t understand that statues have no inherent historical value. It‘s just kitsch built to rally people around an idea of a shared identity. There are some exceptions of course, but for most of them it’s like a McDonald‘s restaurant being demolished.

[Nintex]

I'm sure I can collect a mob big enough of people in support who would just mindlessly join mass murdering one group or another in the name of progress.

[Mandark]

nintex raises a good point

if the protesters were committing mass murder instead of knocking down some statues that would be bad, ergo knocking down some statues is bad

[Mandark]

I'm sure I can collect a mob big enough of people in support who would just mindlessly join mass murdering one group or another in the name of progress.

motherfucker you don't have three friends you're not starting a cult

[Steve Contra]

Man Nintex is still on this statue thing?

[team filler]

Man Nintex is still on this statue thing?

is there a statue of limitations?

[BisMarckie]

As a good social democrat, I would prefer if there was a town hall meeting or some other plebiscite to decide over the fate of statues just as any form of public property, but I won’t lose any sleep over it.

[Madrun Badrun]

Bis are you German or French?  I keep wanting to throw jabs based on your nationality but I don't want to look foolish. 

[BisMarckie]

Bis are you German or French?  I keep wanting to throw jabs based on your nationality but I don't want to look foolish.

Man, VomKriege really confused some people by using a German name as a French dude

[Madrun Badrun]

I liked that you saw immediately that I was confusing you and Vom. 

[Oblivion]

my favorite excuse that the chuds and chud-adjacent use for this confederate monument business is the whole "THE LEFT IS TRYING TO ERASE HISTORY" bit.


because if there's one thing leftists absolutely DON'T want to do, it's pointing out America's history of racism and oppression. 

[OnlyRegret]

confederate statues?
the ugly busts of failed civil war doers that started a shin-dingle over slaves?

atleast pick something aesthetic
like some motherfucker tryna take down this beauty outta have their lights turned off

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/andraydomise/status/1274483770238869510

https://twitter.com/andraydomise/status/1274489824934846464

https://twitter.com/MxVivianWulf/status/1274490910676529154

https://twitter.com/CanadianJoke/status/1274490948186243072

 

[Transhuman]

Zwarte Piet isn't institutionalised racism, nor is it "Christmas". It's actually a time honoured tradition that is tens of years old.

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/HomelessnessSD/status/1274451699034320896

 

[Don Rumata]

We need to put up more Hitler statues so we don't forget about WWII.

You could make one with him opening his mouth, that doubles as a urinal.

[benjipwns]

I didn't see any of this argument on that popular mechanics page about how to take down statues safely using physics.

[benjipwns]

Some towns for Civil War monuments have old cannons instead of dudes. They should just have a cannon for the Georgia 45th or Virginia 9th or whatever rather than some fancy pants General who probably never even heard of the town let alone fought for it, plus then I'd be like you're wrecking a perfectly good cannon for when the state tries to come back after disestablishing itself peacefully!

  third way solutions

[team filler]

if you outlaw statues, only outlaws will have statues

[benjipwns]

https://twitter.com/nhannahjones/status/1274351225492967424

[Raist]

https://twitter.com/HomelessnessSD/status/1274451699034320896

 

The one person who showed up with rollerblades (around 0:11) probably got beat up at the end.

[Mr Gilhaney]

https://twitter.com/HomelessnessSD/status/1274451699034320896

 

The one person who showed up with rollerblades (around 0:11) probably got beat up at the end.

deservedly beat up.

[Pissy F Benny]

premium lager rekt

[Cauliflower Of Love]

https://twitter.com/HomelessnessSD/status/1274451699034320896

 

The one person who showed up with rollerblades (around 0:11) probably got beat up at the end.

I bet they didn't even take off the brakes.

[Nintex]

Protest for freedom in the Hague

https://twitter.com/BobHGL/status/1274670903851393025

https://twitter.com/BobHGL/status/1274682037715247104