The NBA thread

[pilonv1]

LeBron is past being coachable, no one has ever told him what to do and they certainly aren't starting now.

[Great Rumbler]

So...Vince Carter. What's he got left in the tank?

[Himu]

Houston is trying to score Marc Gasol since the Pau Gasol trade didn't go through. Hope a deal works out cuz we need a center.

[Phoenix Dark]

I just want to see the look on MIAMI HEAT SUPERSTAR CHRIS BOSH'S face when they trade him after a year of Lebron being there, so yeah, I'm all for any trade.

Hopefully they'll tell him just before a game and escort him to the locker room

[Flannel Boy]

So...Vince Carter. What's he got left in the tank?

He brings passion, toughness, and planking.






He can still hit threes. 

[Cormacaroni]

[Cormacaroni]

I'd trade LeBron for Paul straight up. Wade + Paul + Bosh = Not 3, not 4, not 5...

lol wut

Lest we forget, Paul has no knees. He was shit throughout the regular season last year, and only managed to turn it up for one lousy playoff series to remind us all of how good he could be. Over the next 4 or 5 years, you want LeBron all the way.

[Phoenix Dark]

LeBron is the best player in the NBA, why the hell would you trade him? He's not even in his prime

[Himu]

vince carter

[Flannel Boy]

I'd trade LeBron for Paul straight up. Wade + Paul + Bosh = Not 3, not 4, not 5...

lol wut

His love for Kobe blinds him to LeBron's greatness. That or during the finals he only watched LeBron play in the 4th quarter.

[Smooth Groove]

Yup.  I still don't know why Lakers fans are so obssessed with Lebron.  Whenever I ask them why they hate Lebron, they always say it has nothing to do with Kobe's legacy. 

[Human Snorenado]

I'll be honest, before he's done Lebron might be a better player than Kobe but I expect him to have fewer championships.

[etiolate]

So the NBA takes over the Hornets, appoints Denby as a caretaker GM.  He manages to swing a deal that gets New Orleans the best haul maybe ever for a disgruntled star in his last year, only to get overruled.  So he tries to put something together with the Clippers, only he has less leverage because 1) the Lakers aren't bidding the price up, and 2) everyone knows the league is now desperate to trade Paul and save face/avoid legal action.  Only that gets shot down by the league too.

I don't see how this could go any smoother!

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Still might happen.  If it's the MIN pick + Gordon, I'd say huge win for the Hornets.  If it's just the pick and a couple of young bench players, meh.

[close]

The Clipps offer, even without Gordon, is way better than the mess NO would be in with the Lakers deal. "Flexible pieces" is a joke. Odom just got traded for nothing. Even with the initial Clip offer w/o Gordon, you get a lottery pick from Minny and NO falls enough to get a lottery pick of their own. You basically get four first rounders out of the Clipper trade, plus Kaman's expiring which puts you in hte position of only needing to flip one piece instead of multiple pieces that have degrading value.

[Mandark]

Sounds like you understand perfectly well why they hate LeBron.  Eight or so years ago T-Mac was considered the biggest threat (anyone who skimmed the old GAF NBA thread back then can vouch for this).  I know a Kobe fan IRL who started pimping Chris Paul last year as a transparent way of crapping on Derrick Rose for having won the MVP.

It's like Manabyte, where all their opinions of rival players is influenced by how they reflect on Disney George Lucas Kobe's place in the canon.



Anyways, too bad Chris Paul isn't getting the George Shinn treatment from the league now that he wants to get out of New Orleans.

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[close]

[pilonv1]

NBA.TV is coming soon. Please return at 11pm ET for your exclusive first look into NBA.TV

[Mandark]

Well, if you're gonna value 1st rounders, it's worth noting that Odom brought one back in a trade.

Maybe you rate Aminu and Bledsoe more than I do.  I certainly haven't seen enough Clippers games to form my own opinion, and they're young.  But from looking at their stats it's hard to imagine them as terribly valuable assets.

[Cormacaroni]

Going all-in for this season. Signed up for Insider at last. Got to have piping hot doses of Prof Hollinger. NBA.TV will be mine.

I hope to fuck they include a remote control app for iOS or something to make couch viewing a bit easier. Got really tired of dealing with the wireless mouse last season.

[Flannel Boy]

LeBron is better than Kobe in nearly every aspect of the game. Now, Kobe may be better than the sum of his parts or maybe he's just a beneficiary of some great luck, luck LeBron hasn't had.

Compare:

Coaches
Kobe's longest serving coach has been Phil Jackson, arguably the greatest coach in NBA history.
LeBron's longest serving coach has been Mike Brown.

Big Men
Kobe has had the luxury of playing with two future hall-of-fame (though one will get in mostly for his international career) big-men, one of whom is probably the best player of his generation.
LeBron played with a 7'4" center who he out-rebounded from 2007 to 2010.

Cities
Kobe has played all of his career for the second most successful franchise in the second biggest city in America, a city which attracts players and generates the revenue necessary to pay their salaries.
LeBron played in Cleveland.

[Human Snorenado]

Kobe has the edge in the dreaded, unquantifiable "intangibles" category tho, where:

Kobe- mentally tuff
LeBron- pussy

[Phoenix Dark]

I'd rather have Kobe on my team in the fourth quarter.

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pre-emptive fuck your stats Malek disclaimer

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[Himu]

I like Kobe a lot more than Lebron. Lebron is the better player, sure, but it's hard to hate Kobe as much as Lebron since Lebron cries and wah wahs all the time.

Remember when Cleveland lost the Eastern Division Conference Finals and he just left the court without a word or a handshake, got on his jet, and flew home back to mommy?

[Flannel Boy]

Kobe has the edge in the dreaded, unquantifiable "intangibles" category tho, where:

Kobe- mentally tuff
LeBron- pussy

These intangibles haven't led to any tangible edges over LeBron: LeBron's clutch stats (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points) have been better than Kobe's and his playoff stats have been, too. The edge is in rings--but that can be explained through tangibles (Jackson, Shaq, Gasol).

[Himu]

(Image removed from quote.)

[Flannel Boy]

[Phoenix Dark]

There's a difference between cryin' and passion

[Cormacaroni]

I'd rather have Kobe on my team in the fourth quarter.

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pre-emptive fuck your stats Malek disclaimer

[close]

...and this is why no-one is asking you to run an NBA team

[Mandark]

Malek, don't you know that Kobe's career can always be explained by bad pop-psych analysis?

After Shaq left he became selfish, which is why those teams kept bombing out in the first round of the playoffs.  Then, coincidentally when Kwame Brown turned into Pau Gasol, Kobe learned to be a Team Player, and they started winning again.  It was truly a Christmas miracle!

[Flannel Boy]

Truly, there's hope for all of us.

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except for Dr. Feelbad's future stepson.

[close]

[Flannel Boy]

There's a difference between cryin' and passion

This is like the difference when a white man is confident, a woman is a cunt, and a black person is uppity.

[Cormacaroni]

Malek, don't you know that Kobe's career can always be explained by bad pop-psych analysis?

After Shaq left he became selfish, which is why those teams kept bombing out in the first round of the playoffs.  Then, coincidentally when Kwame Brown turned into Pau Gasol, Kobe learned to be a Team Player, and they started winning again.  It was truly a Christmas miracle!

I get what you're saying, but the pat explanation actually holds some water in this case I think. When he knew he had no shot at a ring, he went for the next-best thing - stats. He was still playing well and playing hard the whole time, I think, but we've never seen a repeated attempt to get to 81pts or anything like it, have we? The 'selfish' tag rang very true to me back then.

[Flannel Boy]

Sure, LeBron is better now. Kobe is also 33. I will take Kobe from 06-09 over any four LeBron seasons. Argue PER all you want.

Can I argue better TS%, rebounding,  passing, and clutch stats and near identical scoring?

[Phoenix Dark]

I'd rather have Kobe on my team in the fourth quarter.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

pre-emptive fuck your stats Malek disclaimer

[close]

...and this is why no-one is asking you to run an NBA team

Having actually played the game I think I'd have an edge against those who rely on numerical definitions of this beautiful, physical game.

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[close]

[Cormacaroni]

Can I argue Mike Brown, Big-Z and Mo Williams

[Cormacaroni]

I'd rather have Kobe on my team in the fourth quarter.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

pre-emptive fuck your stats Malek disclaimer

[close]

...and this is why no-one is asking you to run an NBA team

Having actually played the game I think I'd have an edge against those who rely on numerical definitions of this beautiful, physical game.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

*goes back to math homework*

[Cormacaroni]

Sure, LeBron is better now. Kobe is also 33. I will take Kobe from 06-09 over any four LeBron seasons. Argue PER all you want.

Can I argue TS%, rebounding,  passing, and better clutch stats?

Yes you can. They won't make any difference.

Your argument sucks because he isn't listening, Flannel Boy

[Mandark]

I'm sure he shared the ball more with Pau than with Kwame, but I don't think he was "selfish" so much as he just figured (correctly) that there wasn't a conflict between the team's best interest and his taking a bajillion shots a game.  For example, the 81-point game was pretty close into the fourth quarter, IIRC.

The more damaging stuff for Kobe's legacy ought to be the way his teams have bombed out of the playoffs, especially the quitjob in Phoenix and the meltdown last season, but if you get multiple championships you get a pass on that stuff.

[Flannel Boy]

Yes you can. They won't make any difference.

Fine, let me reverse the onus: why is 2006-2009 Kobe a better player than 2007-2011?

[Stoney Mason]

There is renewed momentum to push through a trade that would send Chris Paul from the league-owned New Orleans Hornets to the Los Angeles Clippers, according to sources close to the process.

After a seemingly imminent trade routing Paul to the Clippers collapsed earlier Monday, sources told ESPN.com that the league officials negotiating on the Hornets' behalf had aggressively re-engaged the Clippers in talks in hopes of completing a deal as soon as Tuesday.

The talks hit an impasse earlier Monday when the Clippers decided that the league's asking price for the All-Star guard was too high. But Clippers general manager Neil Olshey said Monday that the trade could be revived if some of the parameters change. And a source close to the process told ESPN that league officials also do not see talks with the Clippers as "over."

The NBA remains "hopeful," according to the source, that Paul's fate can be resolved "soon." One source went so far as to say that a deal could be in place by Tuesday, so determined are the league officials running the Hornets to finally bring an end to this saga after NBA commissioner David Stern vetoed a three-team trade Thursday that would have landed Paul with the Los Angeles Lakers.

"Everything's over until it's reborn again," Olshey said. "I'm not going to drag this out. New Orleans made a fair offer on their end. We didn't think it was something we wanted to pursue at this point and we move on. I met with the team and (coach) Vinny (Del Negro) this morning. We love these guys and it took us three years to get in this position. We've been waiting on draft picks that are coming to fruition. Our players are developing, our young guys keep getting better, we added a key free agent (Caron Butler).

"This model is a model for sustainable success and that's been our goal."

At the NBA's direction, sources said, New Orleans was insisting upon the inclusion of both Eric Gordon and Minnesota's unprotected 2012 first-round draft choice in addition to former All-Star center Chris Kaman and prospects Al-Farouq Aminu and Eric Bledsoe.

The Clippers found the demands "too steep," according to one source close to the process, even after Paul told the Clippers he would invoke the 2012-13 option in his contract as part of the trade, ensuring that L.A. would have him next to Blake Griffin for at least two seasons.

Del Negro said some parts of the Paul deal didn't make sense for the Clippers.

"It's over," he said. "Our decision is final right now. Things always have the ability to change, but as of right now I feel very confident in the direction we're going. I think guys are feeling good about where we are right now."

While the Paul news began the day, the Clippers ended it by claiming five-time All-Star guard Chauncey Billups off waivers and re-signing center DeAndre Jordan.

The Clippers used their remaining $3.5 million in salary cap room to claim Billups, with one source with knowledge of the deal saying the Clippers' winning bid to land Billups in the waiver auction was just over $2 million. The 35-year-old point guard was waived by the New York Knicks last weekend tthrough the amnesty clause in the NBA's new labor agreement.

"We've tried eight, 10 times over the years to try and trade for Chauncey. It's never worked out before," Olshey said. "This is another great addition to our roster. He's going to be a great fit with our guys."

Billups averaged 16.8 points, 5.4 assists and 2.6 rebounds in 72 games with Denver and the Knicks last season. He was traded to New York in February. He helped lead Detroit to the NBA championship in 2004, when he was MVP of the finals.

Olshey said the decision to acquire Billups was independent of the team rejecting the Hornets' offer.

"This is not a precursor to another move. This is not laying the groundwork for another opportunity," he said.

The Clippers had a need for Billups since Bledsoe is expected to be sidelined six to eight weeks while recovering from right knee surgery on Oct. 7.

"He has the ability to add a lot to our organization, on and off the court," coach Vinny Del Negro said about Billups. "He's not ready to retire. He has too much left in the tank."

The team matched a $42.7 million, four-year offer sheet from the Golden State Warriors for restricted free agent Jordan, something Olshey told him they would do once they used their cap space.

The 23-year-old center appeared in a career-high 80 games last season, averaging 7.1 points, 7.2 rebounds and 1.78 blocks while making 66 starts.

"He did a nice job for us last year. We're expecting big things from him," Del Negro said. "DeAndre brings a defensive presence for us, shot-blocking, he runs the court well, he's very young still, he's only going to get better."

Still, the talk of a Paul trade dominates the headlines.

On Thursday, Stern vetoed a three-team trade agreement struck by the Hornets, Lakers and Houston Rockets to send Paul to the Lakers.

The Lakers ultimately became so frustrated with those talks that they walked away, but one of the principals in the deal, Lamar Odom, was so unhappy that he was traded to the Mavericks anyway.

Del Negro is hoping Clippers players mentioned in talks don't get frustrated.

"We're always looking to make our team better," he said. "The players know that. In this particular situation, there's been so much attention, but we've moved on. We had a good practice this morning. Guys were upbeat. They'll come back tonight and practice again. We're just trying to stay on point and grow every day. It's just part of the league."

After practice Monday, Hornets coach Monty Williams sought to emphasize patience and perspective while entertaining yet another round of questions concerning his team's roster uncertainty.

"There has been a bit of a distraction," Williams began, but added, "I still get to coach. I'm blessed to be able to coach. I've always lived by the Bible verse, 'Do your work as unto God and not unto men.' And for me, it makes it easy.

"Would I love to have some things in order? Absolutely, but it's not the case," Williams continued. "And when you're a head coach, when you're a father, when you're a husband, you have to deal in reality and I have to devote myself to the people that are here right now."

The Hornets have made no significant free-agent acquisitions, and Hornets guard Jarrett Jack suggested that New Orleans may have trouble luring established free agents until Paul's status is more certain.

"We can't go sign a big-time free agent at the moment because we may be getting four, five players (in a trade for Paul) and who knows what their salaries may command," Jack said. "You've just got to be patient. I know everybody would like to have it over, get some closure to the situation, but if it was that easy it would have been done. Obviously, these things take time and we're willing to wait, hopefully not too long."

The Hornets had hoped to bring back several of their own free agents, including forward David West, but West agreed Sunday to terms with Indiana, a move that Williams described as "a blow" for New Orleans.

"There's no situation on the floor that he was afraid of. He's probably one of the toughest guys I've ever met," Williams said. "He'll be a great mentor to those young guys (in Indiana) and I'm going to miss him. You don't lose guys like David and just say, 'Oh well.' "

West said the league's ownership involvement is a huge obstacle for the club.

"There just really is no direction with no legitimate owner, so that just makes it tough," West said. "It really made it tough for me to see myself going back there."

He said it also makes it tough for other free agents to want to come to New Orleans.

West suspects Paul wants out not only for that reason, but also because of "a series of events that transpired after (the 2007-08 season) sent Chris and myself into a different mindset in terms of what we really could get in New Orleans."

West said he and Paul thought the club was headed in the right direction when it fell one victory shy of the 2008 Western Conference finals. But West said that changed when then-general manager Jeff Bower "gave a cold shoulder" to Jannero Pargo in free agency.

The Hornets chose not to re-sign the backup point guard, who had been Paul's best friend on the team, "and didn't consult Chris about anything," West said.

West added that, before the hiring of general manager Dell Demps and Williams, Hornets upper management did not talk to him or Paul about any major moves, such as the 2009 trade of center Tyson Chandler. Chandler was first shipped to Oklahoma City, but that trade was rescinded. The Hornets later dealt Chandler to Charlotte for Emeka Okafor.

"It's nothing against Emeka, but from our perspective, being teammates with Tyson and knowing the type of impact he had on both of our careers at that particular time, I just felt like at that moment, things, in terms of the trust, the direction we were going, started to wane a bit," West said. "When you have a franchise guy like Chris, build a team around him, I'm under the impression that you've got to keep your franchise guy happy."

West said Demps and Williams constantly consulted him and Paul, and that he holds the current coach and general manager in high regard. But for him -- and possibly Paul -- it was too little, too late. West said he and Paul both struggled to envision a fruitful long-term future in New Orleans while the Hornets lacked not only a permanent owner, but one who had a proven commitment to winning.

"Ultimately, I think (Demps and Williams) got the bad luck of the draw because things were already sort of soured," West said of his and Paul's feelings before last season. "And it was just that idea of trying to build a relationship of trust in such a short period of time."

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/7345461/sources-nba-officials-renew-chris-paul-los-angeles-clippers-push

[Cormacaroni]

I'm sure he shared the ball more with Pau than with Kwame, but I don't think he was "selfish" so much as he just figured (correctly) that there wasn't a conflict between the team's best interest and his taking a bajillion shots a game.  For example, the 81-point game was pretty close into the fourth quarter, IIRC.

The more damaging stuff for Kobe's legacy ought to be the way his teams have bombed out of the playoffs, especially the quitjob in Phoenix and the meltdown last season, but if you get multiple championships you get a pass on that stuff.

Yeah, I'll give you that he had the green light during that phase...it was the only way they were getting into the playoffs. But ultimately he had to know that team wasn't getting anywhere near the championship though, so I'd say he was more interested in his stat legacy than team results.

Btw, when you saw D-Will's line for that game in Turkey, did you not immediately think 'KOBE GAME!'. 50 pts, 1 assist!

[Mandark]

I think (and I obviously can't speak for him) that Malek's pointing out that you selected the stretch of Kobe's career with the least team success, but the best stats, while you're rejecting the idea of using stats to compare him and LeBron.

[Flannel Boy]

Sorry. Fuck my typo.

why is 2006-2009 Kobe a better player than 2007-2011 LeBron?

edit: basically what Mandark said.

[Mandark]

Ha.  That's actually how I read it until I saw the response and went back to check.


Just to throw some historical perspective into this debate, Jordan won a championship after being out of basketball for more than a year, against a team of roided-out aliens, and did so with Bill Murray and the Tazmanian Devil as his best teammates.

[Human Snorenado]

Ha.  That's actually how I read it until I saw the response and went back to check.


Just to throw some historical perspective into this debate, Jordan won a championship after being out of basketball for more than a year, against a team of roided-out aliens, and did so with Bill Murray and the Taxmanian Devil as his best teammates.

Obama played for the Bulls?

[Flannel Boy]

Kobe fan here, and yeah Lebron is the better player. But hey Lebron didn't do shit with that, even while having a team like last years.

He had a great playoff run until he ran into the greatest athlete ever produced by the Fatherland in a sport nobody at home cares about.

edit: LMAO, Triumph

[Mandark]

Ahhhhhhhh dammit.

[Flannel Boy]

This usually only happens to Canadians.

[Himu]

Ha.  That's actually how I read it until I saw the response and went back to check.


Just to throw some historical perspective into this debate, Jordan won a championship after being out of basketball for more than a year, against a team of roided-out aliens, and did so with Bill Murray and the Tazmanian Devil as his best teammates.

Space Jam is canon.

[Flannel Boy]

The aliens never had a chance as soon as they decided to steal Shawn Bradley's "talent".

[Human Snorenado]

Ahhhhhhhh dammit.

[Mandark]

If instead of Jordan, Murray, and the Loony Tunes we had to rely on, say, LeBron, Dane Cook, and the cast of Family Guy we'd all be bowing to our alien overlords.

[Flannel Boy]

That reminds me of the time I had to play aliens from Uranus in a game of ice-hockey. Luckily they stole talent from players off the Islanders' roster.

[Cormacaroni]

Signed up for League Pass 

(Still great value but for FUCK'S SAKE: PRO-RATE IT FOR THE SHORTENED SEASON YOU MINGY CUNTS)

[Himu]

Mandark's post reminds me of the 1995-1996 Seatle Supersonics team. Jesus fuck, fuck Gary Payton. I will never forget when the Sonics beasted on the Rockets in the 95-96 season western conf. semi-finals. We had a repeat; the previous season was even tougher than the 93-94 season, and the Sonics SWEPT Houston. I cried. My mother came in to see what the fuss was about, and it was over fucking basketball. The Rockets were fucking SWEPT by the Sonics -- I never cried harder over basketball than I did that day.

Fuck the Sonics.

[Human Snorenado]

That reminds me of the time I had to play aliens from Uranus in a game of ice-hockey. Luckily they stole talent from players off the Islanders' roster.

Did they make a tv movie out of it that 9 people in Canadia watched?

[Flannel Boy]

That reminds me of the time I had to play aliens from Uranus in a game of ice-hockey. Luckily they stole talent from players off the Islanders' roster.

Did the Phil Kessel alien look like this?

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[close]

Now I feel bad about editing the team name. I have an irrational hatred of Phil Kessel, which not only caused me to stop being a fan or the Leafs this summer but also caused me to stop being a fan of any pro-sports team altogether.

[Phoenix Dark]

Mandark's post reminds me of the 1995-1996 Seatle Supersonics team. Jesus fuck, fuck Gary Payton. I will never forget when the Sonics beasted on the Rockets in the 95-96 season western conf. semi-finals. We had a repeat; the previous season was even tougher than the 93-94 season, and the Sonics SWEPT Houston. I cried. My mother came in to see what the fuss was about, and it was over fucking basketball. The Rockets were fucking SWEPT by the Sonics -- I never cried harder over basketball than I did that day.

Fuck the Sonics.

damn

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I cried when the Rockets swept the Magic  :'(

[close]

[Himu]

That team was pure insanity.

In fact, I can think of so many teams I hated back then due to the sheer amount of amazingly good players. You had the Jazz with Stockton and Malone, the aforementioned Sonics, the Phoenix Suns with Barkley, the Pacers and Reggie Miller, The Bulls, The Magic, The Spurs and David Robinson...

Goddamn, the NBA in the 90's was the best sport.

[Human Snorenado]

90's NBA was definitely way better, Jordan had a lot to do with that of course.

[Himu]

Yeah, jordan even had the effect of making players on other teams seem more important than they were just because they were his rivals.  The 90s also had the beginnings of the great kings teams that were so much fun to watch.

 

[Flannel Boy]

Music was also better when I was a teenager.