Author Topic: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.  (Read 221434 times)

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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1501 on: February 09, 2020, 04:10:59 PM »
Quote
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Attorney General William Barr said on Thursday the United States and its allies should consider the highly unusual step of taking a "controlling stake" in Finland's Nokia and Sweden's Ericsson to counter China-based Huawei's dominance in next-generation 5G wireless technology.

In a remarkable statement underscoring how far the United States may be willing to go to counter Huawei Technologies Co, Barr disclosed in a speech at a conference on Chinese economic espionage that there had been proposals to meet the concerns "by the United States aligning itself with Nokia and/or Ericsson."

Barr said the alignment could take place "through American ownership of a controlling stake, either directly or through a consortium of private American and allied companies."
When conservatism morphs into militarist corporatism :money
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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1502 on: February 09, 2020, 06:26:22 PM »
In... *squints*... Ecuador?
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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1503 on: February 09, 2020, 08:52:55 PM »
currpost... I was being a little jocular when I posted that thing earlier about the dalliance between business and fascism but I did read that Luxemburg pamphlet Esch posted... a phrase that turns up a lot in her literature is the "historic task of defeating militarism". Of course she was right about everything. And when I saw that news today those words went off in my head like a klaxon. We really do live in historic times again. In the coming decades, it really is our central task to reject death and war. There can't be any compromise.
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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1504 on: February 09, 2020, 10:09:06 PM »
All these DSA darlings, The Squad - take a look at their non-domestic policies. These people, our supposed "leaders" have the same outlook as Mike Pompeo.
Gonna disagree with this. Rose twitter went pretty hard in the paint when Venezuela happened, when Bolivia happened, and when Iran was escalating. In fact they were the only people making a ruckus. Meanwhile, people who call themselves progressives but try to split the difference between moderates and innanet socialists, those guys all recognized Guaido and kept their mouth shut about sanctions and the foreign policy apparatus. I don't have any complaints.
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1505 on: February 09, 2020, 10:37:26 PM »
In... *squints*... Ecuador?

God bless that nation, and its people for this chocolate.


shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1506 on: February 09, 2020, 10:41:49 PM »
Comparing Bernie with AOC and Omar is hard to do because one has been in office for decades and the other two have been in office for one year. And Pressley is a moderate. As far as AOC and Omar are concerned, the only vote I can think of regarding China was the Hong Kong one which passed the House and the Senate unanimously, and all it said was that the state department should monitor conditions in Hong Kong. With all the usual caveats about Hong Kong's role as a wedge for foreign interests and its 1 in 7 citizens are a millionaire thing, I think it's pretty uncontroversial to support democracy in Hong Kong. There's really just no debating that.

Bernie can suck. He says we should label China a currency manipulator and stop trading with them. But he's also dapped CCP for lifting more people out of poverty in a shorter time than anyone else ever has. My opinion about that is that we've always known Bernie sucks but it's usually from a place of complete disinterest and not some kind of nationalist antagonism.

But this is kind of moving the goal posts a little. Yes, we were originally talking about Chinese xenophobia and superpower conflict - but you brought up the coming climate wars and our respect for the global south, so I was just expounding on that point. I think the demsoc crew is quite good when it comes to highlighting the violent conflict between center and periphery. We should give people credit where credit is due.
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benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1508 on: February 10, 2020, 01:08:29 AM »
Quote
1. What’s the probability of Sanders’ track record if he is a crypto-communist?  Here, I’d go high.  Most crypto-communists in Sanders’ position would be look like him.  I give this 75%.

2. What’s the probability of Sanders’ track record if he isn’t a crypto-communist?  Sanders view have long been extremely unpopular, but quite a few non-communists on the radical left would have shared them.  So I’ll give this 1.2%.
What's the probability this needs an editor?

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1509 on: February 10, 2020, 01:18:06 AM »
Bernie's voted for imperialist war  multiple times
I'm glad you've finally changed your mind about the Yugoslav Wars :hitler

His only other failure seems to be the Iraq Liberation Act. But that Act happened after years of Saddam flouting the UN. And when push came to shove, when Clinton announced airstrikes on Iraq, Sanders condemned it and said military force should only happen after UN consensus. I'm not saying he's perfect, but you're giving him a lot more flak than he deserves.

With respect to upholding the 'common sense' of the state department line on a color revolution.... as you said there's no debate to be had so we'll agree to disagree!
:leon
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1510 on: February 10, 2020, 01:34:27 AM »
I don’t see how the soc dem contingent in the democratic party doesn’t moderate hard if/when they start wielding actual power. esp. in foreign policy. bernard brother twitter can agonize over the squad’s leftist bonafides in social and economic justice in the domestic sphere and thats all well and good, but international relations are a whole nother ballgame, one thats not so much dominated by as literally comprehensively composed of state department officials, the intelligence community, and the armed forces. there is no interest group in washington of the same size/influence that is as ideologically homogeneous and there is straight up no countervailing complex of institutions from which to compile an alternative roster of foreign policy officials, much less a ‘leftist’ one (theres an analogous problem in political economy; after, inshallah, the berndawg sets up camp in the white house, I’m anticipating some of his rose emoji constituency to nauseate at the inevitable neoliberalisation of his policy agenda -if, ya know, it passes in the first place.). theres also no route to pressure his administration towards a more leftward approach in international relations with the coalition he’s trying to build*, if anything, the opposite’s the case.

none of this is to gainsay that he’d definitely be a better commander in chief than any of the other ghouls we’ve ever had to pick from, its to say that theres a lot more inertia here than some who are down with the revolution want to admit.

*except maybe israel-palestine

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1511 on: February 10, 2020, 01:41:40 AM »
theres also no route to pressure his administration towards a more leftward approach in international relations with the coalition he’s trying to build*, if anything, the opposite’s the case.
it just dawned on me that some of the low income families that make up the bulk of our volunteer soldiery might actually have an interest in not seeing their kids die, so who knows? :whatsthedeal

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1512 on: February 10, 2020, 01:53:21 AM »
It was funny how the ILA vote came up in the discourse cause it was right after Warren got pummeled for her "Soleimani was bad but we shouldn't have done that" take, so Bernie fans had to immediately pull a 180 (actually condemning or calling for the ouster of a foreign leader is fine!). But pointing out that people with poster brain get hypocritical is fish in a barrel and not really relevant.

As far as how bad the vote itself really was, I think it's fair to say that if you vote to make regime change of some country in MENA the explicit policy of the United States of America, how do you think that's going to go down? Maybe he didn't expect a full on ground invasion and occupation but the other likely avenues weren't that pretty either.

benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1513 on: February 10, 2020, 01:58:10 AM »
Exactly as Eisenhower (and Trump) warned about the professional managerial class.

Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1514 on: February 10, 2020, 02:00:30 AM »
Piggybacking on jake's post, worth noting how much even Obama got pushback from the domestic FP establishment as well as US allies for his less hawkish efforts. There were stories running in the New Yorker wondering why he wasn't doing more in Syria. His first Secretary of Defense wrote a book criticizing him for not trusting the Saudi government enough!

benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1515 on: February 10, 2020, 02:01:54 AM »
A lot of criticism around his "red line" statement was how it made us look weak to decide circumstances had changed.

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1516 on: February 10, 2020, 02:06:33 AM »
But pointing out that people with poster brain get hypocritical is fish in a barrel and not really relevant.
Look, it's taking longer than I thought for the Hitchens infection to leave my brain. Thinking about flying to Russia for treatment.
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Mandark

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1517 on: February 10, 2020, 02:07:49 AM »
I was listening to an arms control  podcast during the JCPOA negotiations, and when Obama said something about the agreement being a possible first step on a path towards US-Iranian reconciliation, they were openly mocking it as a gaffe that would "rightfully" freak out Saudi Arabia and the gulf states.

And these are the people who chose to specialize in arms control, who you could expect to be on the dovish/internationalist end of the FP establishment spectrum.

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1518 on: February 10, 2020, 02:24:19 AM »
Yep. The levers of power are huge, they're inaccessible to public office, and they're directly beholden to the interests of capital.
there’s even a hot n ready revleft take on this: soc dem’s robust wealth transfer schemes are just as implicated in the exploitation of their periphery as their rightward neighbor’s liberal regimes are. of course they’d take up the mantle of enforcing empire when it comes to be their time in the driver seat.

Quote
Since the CIA is running candidates in broad daylight (not just talking about Buttigieg) and nobody really cares aside from Twitter leftists I see the chance of an about face from elected officials on foreign policy unlikely.
slightly related cause you just reminded me -what about the volte face from the jacobin-and-adjacent intelligentsia who’ve put all their eggs in bernie’s basket?

benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1519 on: February 10, 2020, 02:31:54 AM »
This conversation is missing an important voice:
https://www.mikebloomberg.com/policies/foreign-policy

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1520 on: February 10, 2020, 02:38:05 AM »
[snip]
yeah and this is just like, wrt anti-war. if you wanted anti-interventionism and positive (meaningful) support for democratic causes abroad, you’d have to entangle their self-interests with those people we’re potentially intervening in or supporting. and those voluntary associations would have to be transnational, extra-state, and also something that holds actual bargaining power over states. so good luck with that

jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1521 on: February 10, 2020, 03:21:13 AM »
They can eat the L and say it's the opening of a movement (technically they aren't wrong if you ignore or misinterpret 200 years of history).
Idk what specifically you’re referring to in the parenthetical, but I do think this might be an actual watershed moment in us politics. like the start of a seventh party system, or whatever the fuck benji says we’re supposed to be on now. the weight of the neoliberal consensus between carter and barry o has splintered the floorboards enough that figures like bernard and the donald have managed to slip through. and while the latter’s administration has obv been in 98% continuity with the pre-2015 GOP, that 2%, which mostly consists in style and outward facing appearance rather than anything substantive, is non-trivial. they also can’t affect any of their agenda and it’s not merely because trump is an idiot who surrounds himself with idiots, it’s because modern american conservatism is ineffectual, and ineffectual because it’s accomplished most everything it set out to do already.

and bernie’s ‘movement’, is gonna have more sticking power than i think your post anticipates. those generational differences in polling tell a really important story; a plurality of people under 35 have effectively been radicalized by left fascism, and it’ll keep trending in that direction as long as dissatisfaction with the center of american politics is high.

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1522 on: February 10, 2020, 02:42:23 PM »
https://twitter.com/means_tv/status/1226891259656142848

this service is going to flop so hard
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1523 on: February 10, 2020, 02:51:01 PM »
 :holeup

Ah yes, cats, the animal famously kept for functionality and the pet people just won't shut up about all the things they've taught to do.



Joe Molotov

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1524 on: February 10, 2020, 02:57:30 PM »
:cat
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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1525 on: February 10, 2020, 03:00:24 PM »
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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1526 on: February 10, 2020, 04:23:11 PM »
Sorry, I wrote half of that while i was passing out and it's pretty incoherent. I agree with you that the neoliberal mode of production is nearing it's end, what will come out of it is up to various factors. I'm not sure where else stagnant or crisis capital can turn in its latest series of death throes for rejuvenation but it won't be pretty. We've seen an imperial core nation in hospice and the right wing always wins - contrast with the more mixed results of the periphery. As you've noted the timing of it all is bizarre. On it's face the movements obv the movements aren't that extreme. Donald's fascism would be normal to many nations under the comprador jackboot, and Bernie would be a centre-left politician elsewhere, but the fact that it's even happening here is notable.

 I guess what I'm trying to get across is that even if they are successful on any level, the counterrevolution will be swift and vicious. I think people are stunned by the workings of Iowa and they're getting the first taste of what socialists of all stripes in the economic periphery get every day, what they are simply not ready for is blackshirts in the streets breaking legs. I think they'll fail because I think the social basis for actual, heiling fascism is not just strong but the baseline of american society. And i think when push comes to shove when the cards really get on the table thanks to climate change these closed borders social democrats will not become internationalists.
https://twitter.com/Brett_Fairchild/status/1226948904815595522
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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1527 on: February 10, 2020, 08:02:17 PM »
For the sake of the bernard critiques, I gotta say the shift away from complaining about millionaires to billionaires for him is a little something.
Reading up about the latest shenanigans of multi-millionaires like Loughlin and feeling disdain.

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1528 on: February 10, 2020, 11:20:11 PM »
edit: whatever and ever, amen
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 12:10:47 AM by shosta »
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jakefromstatefarm

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1529 on: February 10, 2020, 11:53:24 PM »
if your points just that the chapos arent good brainthinkers then i think we’re all in agreement

as much of an autist as i wanna be about plebs getting the s word wrong, de-chudifying america after a century+ of  firm-as-fiefdom agitprop is a little more important right now than capital-t Theory

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1530 on: February 11, 2020, 12:04:38 AM »
That isn't my point, actually. I'm just annoyed by their attitude and the "bend the knee" shit. It's intensely alienating to other people.
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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1531 on: February 11, 2020, 06:37:49 PM »
...did you guys donate to Means TV yet? :vr
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shosta

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OnlyRegret

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1533 on: February 12, 2020, 12:17:30 AM »
smugness of internet lefties reminded me of this


curly

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1534 on: February 12, 2020, 04:10:54 PM »
if your points just that the chapos arent good brainthinkers then i think we’re all in agreement

as much of an autist as i wanna be about plebs getting the s word wrong, de-chudifying america after a century+ of  firm-as-fiefdom agitprop is a little more important right now than capital-t Theory

Didn't see shosta's post but piggybacking off this a bit I've been somewhat surprised by the degree to which Sandersismo has become hegemonic on the left in my mostly anecdotal experience, drawing in support from both ideologically adjacent wings: people who are generally left but were turned off in 2016 by the evangelical tone of his supporters and weren't primed to break with more orthodox Democratic politics yet and radicals who were skeptical of voting at all and have become more open to a hybrid electoral/direct action approach. I expected more discord tbh. The aggrandizing tendencies of the Chapos and the Jacobin set of his supporters are definitely obnoxious (Bernie or we're all doomed!) but easier to overlook now that the primary is underway and there's something to distract the left's interest from navel-gazing over the flaws of its celebrities.

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1535 on: February 12, 2020, 04:46:16 PM »
now that the primary is underway and there's something to distract the left's interest from navel-gazing over the flaws of its celebrities.

Roughly same dynamic as moving from primaries to general election for normal party politics, isn't it? Hating on Mayor Pete smooths over the differences, the way hating on Trump will among casual Dems.

curly

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1536 on: February 12, 2020, 04:54:14 PM »
Pretty much

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1537 on: February 13, 2020, 03:52:13 PM »
speaking of people getting irrationally mad at the chapo hosts :dead

https://twitter.com/willmenaker/status/1228043350990868486
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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1538 on: February 13, 2020, 05:00:34 PM »
paul krugman, thank you for upholding ML thought  :betty
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benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1539 on: February 13, 2020, 10:12:19 PM »
Quote
when's the last time you read the Illiad or the Odyssey in the original Homeric Greek? When's the last time you had a student come to your office at the University of Iowa to cry and express her doubt that she had what it took to complete your course?
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shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1542 on: February 14, 2020, 08:33:05 PM »
https://twitter.com/_rshapiro/status/1228096570278563840

This is completely unacceptable behavior. This needs to be shared as widely as possible.
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benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1543 on: February 15, 2020, 01:52:17 AM »

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1544 on: February 15, 2020, 01:53:08 AM »
Isn't that just the normal state of feudal politics - if you can't enforce your succession through hard and soft power, you lose it?
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benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1545 on: February 15, 2020, 01:58:08 AM »
Shhh.

But if we're going to get technical, it's a bit earlier than that. Although you could pretty well argue that the major regular European succession wars essentially proved the system never truly went away.




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benjipwns

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1550 on: February 15, 2020, 06:44:20 PM »
https://www.pressherald.com/2020/02/06/u-s-senate-candidate-selects-guillotine-as-symbol-of-the-work-we-have-to-do/
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A U.S. Senate candidate in Maine has selected an unusual logo for campaign T-shirts – the guillotine – citing the need for a revolution to remove big money from politics.

The logo, unveiled this week by Democrat Bre Kidman, recalls the execution device known for its role in the 18th century French Revolution and is intended to symbolize revolt by low- and middle-income people, Kidman said.

“The guillotine is an image which calls to mind what people have done for revolution before,” said Kidman, an attorney who’s running for the seat held by Republican Sen. Susan Collins. “If we can find a better path to revolution than that we owe it to ourselves and our country.”
Quote
Kidman said the campaign, which had raised about $16,000 by the end of last year, stopped actively fundraising in July. Merchandise, including t-shirts, patches and buttons, with the new logo is not for sale and instead will be given away to people who want to talk about the campaign ideas with fellow Mainers.

Kidman said the logo is not supposed to be taken literally.

“We’re not going to start a guillotine in Monument Square (in Portland) and start beheading people,” Kidman said. “It’s a symbol of the work we have to do to overcome flaws in our system – flaws that have become deeply evident in the last few weeks.”
https://twitter.com/BeeKay4ME/status/1225177542853828608

shosta

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1551 on: February 15, 2020, 08:20:51 PM »


How long do you guys think she lasts at the times
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shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1552 on: February 16, 2020, 03:01:26 PM »
每天生气

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1553 on: February 16, 2020, 03:03:41 PM »
https://twitter.com/ClaraSorrenti/status/1229129080790028288

:dead

edit: I just realized this goes back days and days.  :doge
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 03:10:38 PM by shosta »
每天生气

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1554 on: February 16, 2020, 03:17:16 PM »
Who is the CPP? Communist Party of Peru? We shining path now?
每天生气

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1555 on: February 16, 2020, 03:20:50 PM »
Duterte just ended our visiting forces agreement because he wants to go full China sphere of influence  :doge
每天生气

team filler

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1556 on: February 16, 2020, 03:22:19 PM »
shosti, you gotta get in on that  :bolo
*****

shosta

  • Y = λ𝑓. (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥)) (λ𝑥. 𝑓 (𝑥 𝑥))
  • Senior Member
每天生气

team filler

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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1558 on: February 16, 2020, 03:32:14 PM »
 :lol
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Re: Laissez-faire Politics Thread - Praxis? I didn't play Deus Ex, sorry.
« Reply #1559 on: February 16, 2020, 03:59:21 PM »
shosti, you gotta get in on that  :bolo
:gurl
*****