Author Topic: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics  (Read 1868464 times)

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The Fake Shemp

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I'm also not sure how one can interpret the act of arguing against fact to be intellectualism...

:lol
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Barry Egan

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I think there's one thing we can all agree on: autotomy is fucking awesome! :rock

Barry Egan

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really? what is "intelligence"? "sapience?" now you really ARE in completely subjective territory. objectivey, we're meat and chemical reactions, just like a cactus, or a kitten, and the only thing that makes us special is the purely SUBJECTIVE importance we ascribe to our condition -- that the chemical processes and biological configuration what produce our notion of self-awareness is somehow a feature of our species more significant than being able to regrow a tail or smell a deer 10 miles off. OBJECTIVELY, we are a certain configuration of chemicals, like any other organism that we likewise choose to arbitrarily distinguish based on its essential makeup. anything else is strictly magical thinking.


Quote from: JayDubya
Rights are inherent characteristics.  That's what a right is.  If it's not an independent property, inherent to the being, it isn't a right.  If someone gives it to you, someone can take it away - which means again... it isn't a right.

that's another false tautology. "a right is...a right! if it's not inherent to the being, it can't exist, but they DO, so lol!" prove to me a "right" exists; that it has a tangible, objective existence independent of the participation of others in pretending they exist.

i'm not sure how you can accuse me of being religious -- i'm not the one believing in magical ephemera, here! i don't believe god is necessary for morals -- in fact, i don't even believe morals objectively exist beyond chemical reactions in my brain to specific social stimuli.

...and I think all but one can agree that this is a fairly pure distillation of Libertarianism's ideological roots and its complete political impotence, insofar as we understand effective politics to be dealing with the world as it actually is, and regardless of whatever specified form the Brechtian "libertarian vs. the world" drama had taken in the past couple pages.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 03:38:33 PM by Chipopo »

The Fake Shemp

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Oh, I'm not name calling. I think you're swell enough guy, just totally insane.
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Flannel Boy

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Late reply, but I wasn't online until now.

The natural right to life is more fundamental; it is the basis for preventing, investigating, and prosecuting lethal acts taken against other human beings.


Where do these natural rights originate and where do they reside?

Why does a clump of human cells located inside a woman have a right to life while a chimp doesn't?

We disagree on what is and isn't a human being/person.

Even if we agreed that a zygote, blastocyst, or fetus had a "natural right to life," why does that right include the right to use the body of a woman?

brawndolicious

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In ancient Greece, orphans would be put on the steps of temples and if anybody wanted them then they could pick them up.  If not, they would die.  The only way that humans can assess the value of another life is based on social and cultural values.  Beyond wanting to pass on your DNA, your biological attributes won't do anything to make you more or less "human"/altruistic.

A newborn's life has value since we instinctively want to take care of them because of social standards/hormones.  If 99% of people support a specific action, then that action would be come legal, moral, kosher, whatever.

brawndolicious

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You agree that if 99% of people supported some sort of social rule, then that rule would probably be supported by most legal systems and religions, right?

Flannel Boy

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Late reply, but I wasn't online until now.

The natural right to life is more fundamental; it is the basis for preventing, investigating, and prosecuting lethal acts taken against other human beings.

Where do these natural rights originate and where do they reside?

Note: this is a side-topic conversation, as clearly we're onto something more subjective here.

"Reside?"  They are innate characteristics; they'd have to be in order to be more than a privilege or an entitlement.  Rights are

I am asserting support for a bedrock values of the nation I inhabit, and something I embrace entirely.  I suppose the Brits receiving the DoI didn't think Jefferson's truths were very self-evident, hence the whole military invasion thing.  However, I concur with Jefferson, that men are created equal and endowed with unalienable rights, and to protect those rights, we make governments; when governments routinely violate those rights, those governments are no longer valid and should be removed.

For another tack on the same question, and a preface for the next, rights are a property of sentient and sapient life.  There could be other sentient & sapient life in our universe, but insofar as we know, we're it.

Yes, reside. Legal rights are located in constitutions, statutes, and case law. I can point to them, read them, enumerate them. Can you do the same thing with your "natural rights"?

Natural rights don't exist just because Jefferson said they do.

You're so mystical here that you might as well be talking about "souls."


While relatively intelligent compared to most animals, chimpanzees are not capable of the level of judgment, reasoning, or awareness that humans are.

Note: one could just as easily take a pro-animal rights position and marry it to an anti-abortion position.  Indeed, that would be more logically consistent than what is statistically more common among the PETA crowd.

They may not be as smart as born humans, but they're sure smarter than zygotes and fetuses.

Wrong. If you believe a clump of undifferentiated cells has some "natural right" to life, it should follow that fairly intelligent organism that suffer pain should also be covered by those rights. The converse does not follow.

Barry Egan

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oh dear

Flannel Boy

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I don't see how we could. 

A human in the fetal stage of growth and development is just as human as you or I, in the adult stage of growth and development. 

In that stage of development, however, a human being is not recognized as a person.

We are not simply reducible to our genetic material. An acorn is not an oak tree.


If we agreed that the human in utero had a natural right to life, we would have no argument.  The initiation of lethal force against a third party that has nothing to justify your actions would be a violation of that third party's right to life.  Governments are instituted specifically to prohibit or prosecute such infractions.

We have no obligation to be a host for a third party. You ignored my question.

Flannel Boy

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Yes, reside. Legal rights are located in constitutions, statutes, and case law. I can point to them, read them, enumerate them.

 :lol  Neither the Constitution, nor any lower-tier governmental contract grants rights.  They can only recognize rights.  So no, they don't "reside" anywhere.

I was wondering what you were getting at.  I didn't realize the problem was fundamental.

This is religious thinking in action.

Human Snorenado

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Oh sweet jesus, can we either make a new thread for this same tired old abortion shit or shut it up?  JayDubya isn't going to step back- for fucks sakes he thinks we need less financial regulation even after the disastrophe of last year, he's a true believer that has never seen a shade of grey and this shit is tiresome.
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The Fake Shemp

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Let's talk about something less divisive - like health care reform!
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Flannel Boy

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We're basically arguing whether a man with no hair on his head is bald. You say he isn't because I can't point to the exact moment when he ceases to be bald man. The line is going to be fuzzy. There is no magic moment when a human becomes a person.


They may not be as smart as born humans, but they're sure smarter than zygotes and fetuses.

They're smarter than newborn humans, actually, but that's actually pretty tied to my own point - transitory states are not much of a basis for denying personhood.

Quote
Wrong. If you believe a clump of undifferentiated cells has some "natural right" to life, it should follow that fairly intelligent organism that suffer pain should also be covered by those rights. The converse does not follow.

If your standard for granting rights is tied to the wishy-washy pain / empathy standard, then give a chimpanzee a nice sedative and some general anesthetic before shooting them in the head.  Hell, for that matter, do it to a human.

A newborn baby is smarter than a newborn ape. Stop comparing apples to undifferentiated clumps of cells.

Who said that was my standard?

An anesthetic? cute. But physical pain isn't the only pain we endure. And you're depriving an organism that is currently capable of experiencing pleasure form experiencing continued pleasure. (let me guess "but a fetus will be capable, if it isn't stillborn, of experiencing pleasure, too." But the point is it hasn't and, since it's not conscious, wouldn't know what it is missing even in the abstract.)

Can a zygote experience either mental or physical pain or pleasure? No. Can it reason? No. Can it experience emotions? No. Does it have memories? No Does it have a social identity? No. But it has human DNA and can reproduce--so it's a person.

Flannel Boy

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  And 99% of the time, that third party is present due to voluntary and deliberate action.

A woman consents to sex; she doesn't consent to carrying a fetus to term.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 06:03:30 PM by Malek »

Flannel Boy

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I hate quote tags, god damn it

Flannel Boy

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Well, there's an arbitrary legal line that says it happens at birth, but that's kind of what I'm taking issue with.

Your line drawing is arbitrary. You simply think certain characteristics (DNA and tissue) are important and others (consciousness, reason, pain, memories, social recognition, independence, etc.) aren't.


The anesthetic recipient is not conscious either, nor is he or she experiencing pain or pleasure.  This is a temporary state, of course.

If you'll note, I have said nothing of "potential."  The human in utero is deserving of the protection of its rights not because of what it will become but because it is - a living human being.


You know, you committed battery by injecting anesthetic to a person without his or her consent. You weren't very mindful of that person's "natural rights."

Of course, that person had consciousness, and you took it away artificiality. This isn't the case with a zygote. It has no consciousness to take away.


Flannel Boy

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I hate quote tags, god damn it

They're getting quite nested and quite frustrating, actually, yeah.   :lol

And people claim that an agreement can't be reached in an abortion debate.

Barry Egan

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although I didn't pursue a consensus, I still hold firm that we all agree on autotomy and its being pretty rad.

Flannel Boy

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No it isn't, and no I don't.  I don't draw a line.  A living human being is a living human being.  You could argue that I'm drawing a line at conception, but I'd counter that prior to that, no organism exists.

Drawing the line at the beginning is still still drawing the line.


Indeed, unless I had their consent, and even if I did have their consent to put them under, I doubtlessly did not have consent to kill them. 

However, if I were to look at this in the context of the logical / moral framework presented by some in the pro-abortion camp, battery would be my crime, and there would certainly be broaching of duty if this were a patient, but the actual killing act wouldn't be criminally punishable. 

Referencing a person's current ability to experience pain and pleasure is just one of the ways to differentiate a person from a fetus.

But, looking at from a strictly hedonistic perceptive, you are still taking away a person's current, concrete ability to experience both mental and physical pleasure. It'd still be murder. It isn't simply potential pleasure, since the person has already realized that potential up to that point in your though experiment.

If rights are the basis for the prosecution of crimes, and rights are granted to human persons, and humans are only people if they're currently exhibiting higher-level consciousness and can feel pain...

Legal rights are the basis for the prosecution of crimes and they are granted to human beings based on artificial, legal constructs.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 06:53:33 PM by Malek »

Phoenix Dark

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Quote
This weekend's Republican YouTube address by Sen. Mike Enzi (R-WY) -- one of the three key Republicans negotiating on health care -- was a pretty strong sign that negotiations might not be working out after all. Enzi delivered a thorough speech against the Democrats on health care. And even while he did not use the "death panel" phrase itself, he did make the same underlying argument by warning that people could be denied care because of age or disability: (vid at link)

"The bills would expand comparative effectiveness research that would be used to limit or deny care based on age or disability of patients," said Enzi. "Republican amendments in the HELP Committee would have protected Americans by prohibiting the rationing of their health care. The Democrats showed their true intent by voting every amendment down and leaving these unacceptable provisions in the bill. This intrusion of a Washington bureaucrat in the relationship between a doctor and a patient is not the kind of reform that Americans are seeking."

And remember, this guy is one of the key GOPers with whom the Democrats are working, to try to find common ground.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/enzi-pushes-deatherism-in-gop-address.php?ref=fpblg

How do you legislate or compromise with these people?

edit: comparative effectiveness research is not some 1984 nightmare
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/16/health/policy/16health.html

Conservatives creating scare tactics about a plan to save money? SMH
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:30:00 PM by Phoenix Dark »
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Human Snorenado

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Jebus, when is Obama gonna learn about dealing with these fucking nutbars?  Seriously, a process that a Senator from WYOMING was a part of was supposed to produce something that would be effective?  Yeah right.

Not to mention that the notion of bipartisanship is still all upside down in DC.  We're coming off of more than a quarter century of pretty much continual conservative rule, and the GOP still expects negotiations to go like they did before they got the shit kicked out of them in two consecutive elections.  WTF?  No bitches, if you want to be part of governing (haha) then YOU get to be the conciliatory ones in this equation.
yar

Phoenix Dark

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So we have two dudes on the finance committee peddling deather shit. plus somebody admitting to just stalling the process

stand up for yourself god damn
[youtube=560,345]vRbCfdR4NZs[/youtube]
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 10:20:05 PM by Phoenix Dark »
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Democrats are too scared to be the majority party.  Even when Clinton was in office, the far right wing was strengthening but Democrats have solid majorities in Congress.  Obama dropped the ball by not ignoring the far right.  He did that for a while but slipped up on the health care thing.

I was in Nebraska this weekend and the FUD is cranked up high on cap and trade and health care reform.  No wonder Ben Nelson has proven himself to be a chickenshit on health care reform.
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ToxicAdam

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The Pubs only regained control of both houses for a decade. Not twenty-five years.


Phoenix Dark

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they'll probably have them both back within the next 10 years
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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.
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Phoenix Dark

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kinda makes me want to go back and read all the hubris surrounding "new age of dem dominance! 40 years! demographics!" talk that popped up after the election.

bad economy+dem incompetence will throw that out the fucking window 
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Human Snorenado

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The Pubs only regained control of both houses for a decade. Not twenty-five years.

Yeah, but I seem to remember them having the White House for 12 years before that.
yar

Mandark

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Not to mention that the notion of bipartisanship is still all upside down in DC.

It's a peculiarly American notion, at that.  In the UK everyone expects whoever takes parliament to vote through their agenda and live or die on the results.

Bipartisan negotiations were a big part of the last half-century of US politics because we have a system where the executive can (and often is) in a different party from the legislature, and because of the historical makeup of our national parties.  They used to be patchworks of regional parties without much ideological coherence.  You had liberal New England Republicans and conservative Southern Democrats mostly as vestiges of the Civil War divisions.

It was easier finding cross-party alliances, but it wasn't a better system.  When Adlai Stevenson (!) wins the South because of an unspoken agreement to maintain Jim Crow, that's not a good thing.


Quote from: PD
kinda makes me want to go back and read all the hubris surrounding "new age of dem dominance! 40 years! demographics!" talk that popped up after the election.

bad economy+dem incompetence will throw that out the fucking window

Judis and Teixeira published their book in 2002, when Bush's numbers were huge and the GOP had the House for eight years running.  We're talking about the cold equations, not irrational exuberance.

There's always going to be fluctuations in politics, especially based on the economy's performance.  I'd expect Republicans to take some seats in the House and maybe the Senate.  But unless you can figure out a scenario where they start winning over atheists and minorities, the long-term numbers are pretty unforgiving.

Give the panic button a rest for a while.

Kestastrophe

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5130 on: September 01, 2009, 10:39:07 AM »
I don't think this has been posted yet.
[youtube=560,345][/youtube]
jon

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5131 on: September 01, 2009, 10:41:48 AM »
I can't watch anything on Faux news anymore. It's bad for my blood pressure.  :maf
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Crushed

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wtc


Phoenix Dark

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« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 04:17:13 AM by Phoenix Dark »
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T-Short

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #5135 on: September 02, 2009, 04:09:12 AM »
pat buchanan asks, "was hitler really that bad!?"

<->  :smug

edit:
Quote
If Hitler wanted the world, why did he not build strategic bombers, instead of two-engine Dorniers and Heinkels that could not even reach Britain from Germany?

uh wat? A two-engined Heinkel was a strategic bomber in 1938.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 04:22:18 AM by Hyoushi »
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Phoenix Dark

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AdmiralViscen

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5137 on: September 02, 2009, 04:09:41 PM »
pat buchanan asks, "was hitler really that bad!?"

lol, wow. Call the Iraq War unnecessary and you aren't supporting the troops, suggest that American policy in the Middle East is what lead to the 9/11 attacks and you're blame-America-first.

But blame Poland for WW2 and genocide....


btw don't miss the first comment. Yikes.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 04:11:25 PM by AdmiralViscen »

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5138 on: September 02, 2009, 06:46:19 PM »
This is the new right.

I just hope that all of this general insanity will not churn out any kind of influential leadership.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5139 on: September 02, 2009, 07:44:44 PM »
remember, pre-ww2 and even into the early years of it, there was a large contingent of political support FOR hitler in america.
duc

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5140 on: September 02, 2009, 08:29:17 PM »
Wasn't that due largely in part to ethnic solidarity?
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recursivelyenumerable

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5141 on: September 02, 2009, 08:34:05 PM »
omg, I'd never seen Glenn Beck before.  I assumed he was an unscrupulous entertainer like Limbaugh and Coulter, but he appears to either be clinically insane or have decided that it would be advantageous to present himself as clinically insane.
QED

Oblivion

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5142 on: September 02, 2009, 09:55:09 PM »
Glenn Beck's a fucking tool, but when you go from 600k viewers a night to 2-3 million, you can't really blame him for continuing that schtick.

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5143 on: September 02, 2009, 10:00:23 PM »
omg, I'd never seen Glenn Beck before.  I assumed he was an unscrupulous entertainer like Limbaugh and Coulter, but he appears to either be clinically insane or have decided that it would be advantageous to present himself as clinically insane.

Not clinically insane, just socially accepted insanity. I'm not sure if his viewers care what he says. He's just the Diceman for the uptight. Pretty amazing how much hate religious people can spew on a daily basis.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 10:02:23 PM by Zero Hero »
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AdmiralViscen

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5144 on: September 02, 2009, 10:27:00 PM »
Pat Buchanan is about as far as you can get from the new right. He's bedrock

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5145 on: September 02, 2009, 10:38:18 PM »
Buchanan is still waiting for Jesus to return.
Still.
After all these years.
Any day now.
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Crushed

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5146 on: September 03, 2009, 12:09:26 AM »
remember, pre-ww2 and even into the early years of it, there was a large contingent of political support FOR hitler in america.

remember, he killed commies so he must be good*

*also applies to pinochet, still idolized today by the right as a misunderstood champion
wtc

Eel O'Brian

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5147 on: September 03, 2009, 01:43:37 AM »
there were a number of reasons hitler had the support of certain groups in the u.s.

can't put on hindsight glasses and be too judgemental of those people, as they really weren't privvy to information kept secret at the time, as hitler was pretty savvy about his worldwide public image pre-1939

to a lot of foreigners he was just known as the guy who pulled germany out of a horrific depression, and there was sympathy all over the world for the german population regarding the harsh terms of the treaty of versailles they lived under during the 20s and early 30s
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 01:45:13 AM by Eel O'Brian »
sup

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5148 on: September 03, 2009, 02:04:28 AM »
A lot of the worst stuff was a secret until during or after the war, but it was clear early on that the Nazi movement was authoritarian and racist.

Praising Hitler in 1936 might not be as bad as praising him in 1946, but it still would have been wrong.  Plenty of people at the time opposed him, openly and for the right reasons.

Eel O'Brian

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5149 on: September 03, 2009, 02:18:51 AM »
sure, but the racism which had been a prominent part of the nazi platform at the formation of the party was swept to the background not long after, when the party leaders realized it wasn't really helping their chances in being elected

hitler was pretty big on the "mood of the people" and would turnabout depending on what his party spies told him the people were bristling over  - witness his many about-faces (publicly, at least) on issues like euthanizing the mentally disabled

you could say the same things about people who rallied around and nicknamed stalin "uncle joe" during the time period, as well, when it was just as clearly known what kind of business he was running in russia
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 02:24:53 AM by Eel O'Brian »
sup

Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5150 on: September 03, 2009, 02:27:20 AM »
So... hows about that "Glenn Beck killed someone in 1990" rumor that's making the rounds?

Can't prove it didn't happen!!  :lol
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AdmiralViscen

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5152 on: September 03, 2009, 11:15:23 AM »
That's great :lol

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5153 on: September 03, 2009, 11:28:46 AM »
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/A_new_front_in_the_GOPs_war_on_sanity.html

That's right folks, keep your kids out of school on September the 8th or Obama will INDOCTRINATE THEM INTO SOCIALISM.
yar

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5154 on: September 03, 2009, 11:46:11 AM »
That is kind of dumb, but it's still not OMG TEH INDOCTRINATION OF SOCIALISM AMONGST OUR CHILRUN!

Speaking of which JD, if you have kids will you send them to those parasitic public schools?
yar

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5155 on: September 03, 2009, 11:54:25 AM »
I do think that people are overreacting to the school thing. It does come across as a little creepy when you start showing videos where you have celebrities pledging to do whatever Obama wants. Cult of personality anyone?


FlameOfCallandor

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5156 on: September 03, 2009, 11:59:13 AM »
[youtube=560,345]pTQawLBC59g[/youtube]

Here is the end of it

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #5157 on: September 03, 2009, 12:21:30 PM »
Yeah.

Hell, I don't like pledging to the flag, which is just a symbol, let alone swear fealty to an executive as if he were a monarch, which is exactly what that was.

It's cause you're racist.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #5158 on: September 03, 2009, 12:47:51 PM »
This reminds me of my die-hard-mouth-breather-liberal friend who actually told me that he pledged allegiance to the democratic party last year.  :lol

Phoenix Dark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #5159 on: September 03, 2009, 01:14:59 PM »
[youtube=560,345]pTQawLBC59g[/youtube]

Here is the end of it


Holy shit who thought that was a good idea. Servant:lol :-\
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