Author Topic: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba baaaa  (Read 465062 times)

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Flannel Boy

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Hillary and Condoleezza look-alikes? If they were in their twenties and hot, right?

« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 04:18:26 AM by Night Man »

brawndolicious

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 That RS article made me realize that McCain is not just stupid and evil, but fucking insane as well.

I don't think McCain is stupid; like Bush, he's just intellectually incurious. Palin, on the other hand, is both stupid and intellectually incurious.
I mean more reckless than stupid.  Crashing a bunch of planes, getting in the bottom 2% of his class, and  his "bad judgement" in the Keating 5 scandal were pretty common knowledge but this article makes it seem like he lost a few screws while sitting in Hanoi for 6 years.  His colleagues seem to think the same.

Flannel Boy

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 That RS article made me realize that McCain is not just stupid and evil, but fucking insane as well.

I don't think McCain is stupid; like Bush, he's just intellectually incurious. Palin, on the other hand, is both stupid and intellectually incurious.
I mean more reckless than stupid.  Crashing a bunch of planes, getting in the bottom 2% of his class, and  his "bad judgement" in the Keating 5 scandal were pretty common knowledge but this article makes it seem like he lost a few screws while sitting in Hanoi for 6 years.  His colleagues seem to think the same.
He's the same person after Hanoi as before: reckless, impulsive, emotional, and egotistical.



brawndolicious

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It does sound like McCain became more impulsive and that he also became more unbalanced.  The torture he went through was less than most POWs (because he was navy royalty who confessed secrets) and I'm guessing the worst part of his imprisonment was just sitting around doing nothing.  It sounds like he became a lot more ambitious after that period of his life.  He was just a lazy fuck-up before he was a POW but he spun that into his advantage and made himself look like a hero.  He got a lot more ambition and eventually got into congress where he would flip-flop depending on whatever his contributors wanted.  If a politician or reporter called him out on his BS, he would sometimes scream at them, literally.  It sounds like his experience in Vietnam made him more unbalanced and self-serving.  He's not all there mentally, that's for sure.

Human Snorenado

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The Obama campaign is playing it right:  after telegraphing their move in playing the Ayers card with Palin's speech the other day, camp Obama is coming out with a new ad calling McCain "erratic in a crisis".  The ad is a good piece of political jiujitsu, but I for one would love to see them say "oh, we're playing guilt by association then?  how about we talk about your vp's love of a secessionist political party and John McCain's vacations with Charles Keating, then?"  I really think they've missed a serious chink in McCain's armor by not exploiting his role in the Keating 5 and drawing parallels between the S&L crisis in the 80's and what's going on now.  An effective pushback on that a week or so ago and McCain could be even deader in the polls now in my opinion.
yar

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NSFW NSFW NSFW

Lisa Ann action

NSFW NSFW NSFW

she's even wearing fur  :o
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MrAngryFace

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o_0

Phoenix Dark

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between the porn and talk of Palin blowing people off, this thread is getting hot  :o
010

Phoenix Dark

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010

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #2411 on: October 05, 2008, 10:08:32 PM »
Quote
(BURLINGAME, Calif.) — Sarah Palin defended her claim that Barack Obama "pals around with terrorists," saying the Democratic presidential nominee's association with a 1960s radical is an issue that is "fair to talk about."

Palin, the Republican vice presidential candidate, launched the attack Saturday, repeating it at three different events and signaling a new strategy by John McCain's presidential campaign to go after Obama's character.

"The comments are about an association that has been known but hasn't been talked about," Palin said as she boarded her plane in Long Beach, Calif. "I think it's fair to talk about where Barack Obama kicked off his political career, in the guy's living room."

At issue is Obama's association with Bill Ayers, a founder of the radical Weather Underground group during the Vietnam era. Both have served on the same Chicago charity and live near each other. Ayers also held a meet-the-candidate event at his home for Obama when Obama first ran for office in the mid-1990s, the event cited by Palin.

But while Ayers and Obama are acquainted, the charge that they "pal around" is a stretch of any reading of the public record. And it's simply wrong to suggest that they were associated while Ayers was committing terrorist acts. Obama was 8 years old at the time the Weather Underground claimed credit for numerous bombings and was blamed for a pipe bomb that killed a San Francisco policeman.

At a rally in North Carolina, Obama countered that McCain and his campaign "are gambling that he can distract you with smears rather than talk to you about substance." The Democrat described the criticism as "Swiftboat-style attacks on me," a reference to the unsubstantiated allegations about 2004 Democratic nominee John Kerry's decorated military record in Vietnam.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1847388,00.html

Seems like the media isn't letting them get away with this shit.

Also, anyone else think the only reason the NY Times ran this is because they're about to unleash another damning piece on McCain?
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Human Snorenado

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Supposedly surrogates are now allowed to go after McCain on the Keating 5 stuff.  Not Obama or Biden or any of his campaign staff, but "generic dem on cable news" will now be allowed to start slamming him on it, which is a good beginning.  I'd like to see Obama use it at the last debate as a knockout punch.
yar

duckman2000

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You'd think Palin would be a little bit more careful about deciding what is fair or not, lest she be painted as a religious nutbag who chums up with people who think that Israel has had it coming.

Fragamemnon

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I think using Keating 5 directly sort of gives an opening for McCain's smears to have credibility. I think his surrogates should talk about it, the 527s should run ads with it, but Obama should stay above the fray. There's no reason for his campaign to go fight in the dirt when Obama has the high ground and McCAin is playing a card that has a 90% chance to backfire anyway.
hex

Human Snorenado

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Also, 7 state employees will now be honoring their subpoenas in Troopergate.  The report is supposed to come out next Friday and while it's nice to see them testifying apparently it's not necessary since they already gave depositions.  I guess we'll see if anyone changes their story.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
My prediction- there will be no way to prove that either Gov. McMooseburger or the First Dude pressured Monegan to fire Wooten.  BUT!  There will be some kind of proof that one or both of the first couple pressured state employees to withhold worker's comp to Wooten when he had an injury.  Will anyone care?
[close]
yar

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #2416 on: October 05, 2008, 10:19:58 PM »
I think using Keating 5 directly sort of gives an opening for McCain's smears to have credibility. I think his surrogates should talk about it, the 527s should run ads with it, but Obama should stay above the fray. There's no reason for his campaign to go fight in the dirt when Obama has the high ground and McCAin is playing a card that has a 90% chance to backfire anyway.

I agree, but I'm curious as to why you think McCain's current smear strategy is a sure loss for him.
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Brehvolution

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Even if it's just dirt, it should be called out as a lie. Facts are facts and the fact checkers are gaining ground on the FUD for once. I don't think people are taking the repub schpeel anymore.
©ZH

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #2418 on: October 05, 2008, 10:37:58 PM »
:drudge :drudge :drudge
[youtube=425,350]qsI_0bV2CZo[/youtube]

Looks like they're going all out. Dunno how this will work, but then again the McCain camp is going to throw every guilt-by-association charge out there, regardless of what Obama does

Quote
Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) on Monday will launch a multimedia campaign to draw attention to the involvement of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) in the “Keating Five” savings-and-loan scandal of 1989-91, which blemished McCain’s public image and set him on his course as a self-styled reformer.

Pushing back against what it calls “guilt-by-association” tactics by McCain, the Obama campaign is e-mailing millions of supporters a link to a website, KeatingEconomics.com, that will have a 13-minute documentary on the scandal beginning at noon Eastern time on Monday. The overnight e-mails urge recipients to pass the link on to friends.

The Obama campaign, including its surrogates appearing on radio and television, will argue that the deregulatory fervor that caused massive, cascading savings-and-loan collapses in the last ‘80s was pursued by McCain throughout his career, and helped cause the current credit crisis.


Obama’s offensive comes after McCain’s running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, spent two days telling voters, donors and reporters that Obama showed poor judgment in his relationship with the former radical William Ayers.

McCain’s campaign has vowed to make a major issue of Obama’s Chicago relationships in coming days, with a senior McCain official telling Politico that they are “the vehicle that allows us to question Obama’s truthfulness about his past and his plans for the future.”

In 1991, the Senate Ethics Committee cleared McCain of corruption charges but cited him for “poor judgment” in meeting with federal regulators on behalf of Charles H. Keating Jr., a political patron who went to prison for fraud in connection with the collapse of the California-based Lincoln Savings and Loan Association, which at the time was one of the biggest financial failures in the nation’s history.

Obama-Biden communications director Dan Pfeiffer said: “While John McCain may want to turn the page on his erratic response to the current economic crisis, we think voters will find his involvement in a similar crisis to be particularly interesting. His involvement with Keating is a window into McCain’s economic past, present, and future.”

A trailer for the campaign-produced documentary features William K. Black, a former bank regulator who McCain met with in the Keating case, saying: “The Keating Five involved all the things that have brought the modern crisis. Senator McCain has not learned the lesson, and has continued to follow policies that are going to produce a disaster.”

The Obama website will have news clips, timelines and narratives explaining the scandal and McCain’s involvement for voters and reporters.

The Keating episode took a searing toll on the senator and his wife, Cindy. Robert Timberg, in his 1999 biography “John McCain: An American Odyssey,” writes that the trouble began with the senator “carelessly choosing his friends.”

“McCain had stumbled into a scandal of immense proportions,” Timberg wrote. “Charles Keating, it turned out, had built his financial empire on the life savings of elderly retirees, men and women who watched helplessly as their dreams were snuffed out along with the assets of Keating’s Lincoln Savings and Loan Association.

“The story was complicated, but the press found a tag line that simplified it. McCain and four other senators with ties to Keating were dubbed ‘the Keating Five.’ The label stuck, imputing to all the same degree of guilt even though it soon became evident that at least two, McCain and former astronaut John Glenn of Ohio, were far less culpable, if they were culpable at all.”

Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.), a close Obama adviser who is the fourth-ranking House Democratic leader, brought up McCain’s association with Keating on CNN’s “Late Edition” on Sunday. “John McCain got admonished by the Senate Ethics Committee for that,” Emanuel said.

Politico has asked the McCain campaign for a response and will post it when it arrives.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14302.html
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 10:43:04 PM by Thanks But No Thanks »
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Eric P

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i'd rather he didn't do that
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Van Cruncheon

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yeah, leave the dirty pool to the crazy old man
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huckleberry

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Fuck it ....that Keating 5 shit is straight up truth.  Proof positive the McCain is just a hack who doesn't know (or care) about the economics of this country. McCain bullshitting people left and right about his maverick ways should be exposed for this.  The American memory is about as long as my dick (which, unfortunately for me and the American people is not that long).

Probably not a good move strategically for Obama though.  He has run a pretty clean campaign thus far.
wub

Fragamemnon

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #2422 on: October 05, 2008, 11:48:12 PM »
I agree, but I'm curious as to why you think McCain's current smear strategy is a sure loss for him.

- McCain's positives vs. Obama's positives are already at a low, in that position negative character ads usually don't have the intended effect and often backfire.
- Discussed ad naseum already via conservative blowhards and the primaries, where all this came out, was discussed, and "put to bed".
- Media already believe that McCain is clearly running sleazier campaign and this feeds their narrative, and will influence how they spin things.
- Can easily be spun as an act of McCain not wanting to talk about the economy, sort of like the Bush '92 draft dodger gambit they tried on Bubba.

Just not a lot of reasons that this would work.

Obama's response with the Keating stuff is a surprise. Not too sure I wanted to see that kind of forceful response but at the same time if this is a fight for low-information white males and rural voters, there is a huge benefit to being the alpha male and stepping up to the weaker challenger and ripping thier throat out.
hex

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Obama can't risk playing the reactionary role, which caused Kerry's demise.  He needs to be aggressive and he knows this.  So that way instead of Obama defending himself against bullshit attacks like being in tight with the PLO, McCain will be on the defensive about his shady dealings.
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Bocsius

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I don't see either tactic working except to turn off voters. So I guess it's who turns off voters more or less, depending upon your perspective. The metered debate audiences did not respond well to negativity, and I think that is true for the general public.

Argue policy.

Mandark

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Shit just got real.

I'm interested in whether the Obama campaign (1) was always going to roll this out, (2) figured the financial crisis makes it potent and relevant where it wasn't before, or (3) held it until McCain launched the Ayers/Rezko/Wright attacks, in a game of MAD.

Either way I'm not sure what I think about this.

huckleberry

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Shit just got real.

I'm interested in whether the Obama campaign (1) was always going to roll this out, (2) figured the financial crisis makes it potent and relevant where it wasn't before, or (3) held it until McCain launched the Ayers/Rezko/Wright attacks, in a game of MAD.

Either way I'm not sure what I think about this.

It's too good to pass up if you are Obama...perfect timing to pull this shit out on McCain.  The Ayers/Wright attacks deserve to be countered with some real deal stuff.  Even though it is negative and might turn off some voters, some of those undecided voters should definitely see what a flim flam man McCain is.
wub

Fresh Prince

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McCain is just passing FUD, from what I gather Keating 5 is actually the truth the 'poor judgment' verdict is good enough indicator. Also bringing up McCain's and his wife's connections to the rich, scandalous and famous are a good move as well.   

If Obama however implicitly says McCain did have something to do with it anyway then of course that not what I'd like to see.
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Fragamemnon

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Shit just got real.

I'm interested in whether the Obama campaign (1) was always going to roll this out, (2) figured the financial crisis makes it potent and relevant where it wasn't before, or (3) held it until McCain launched the Ayers/Rezko/Wright attacks, in a game of MAD.

Either way I'm not sure what I think about this.

Someone dug up that they owned the KeatingEconomics.com domain since 25 September. I think they noted the similarities between the K5 scandal and the current credit crisis and decided to go ahead with preparing an attack with that as, you mentioned, MAD against McCain from going completely into the shitter.
hex

Mandark

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I'd definitely prefer they not to do this, but it is kind of relevant to certain classes of elites getting a lot of access in Washington and shaping the discourse and policy process there, which is fundamental to Obama's critique of American politics.

If this builds some momentum for lobbying, campaign funding, and ethics reform, that'd be good.  But right now it feels like paint-by-numbers mudslinging, even if it's not nearly as specious as the Ayers/sex ed type stuff.

Also, I bet McCain gets really personally irate about this and I bet Obama's campaign is counting on that.

AdmiralViscen

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #2430 on: October 06, 2008, 01:16:04 AM »
Why isn't the Obama campaign pushing the Palin secessionist thingggg

MrAngryFace

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MrAngryFace

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Why isn't the Obama campaign pushing the Palin secessionist thingggg

Because it doesnt entirely hold water, there's nothing remotely current about her or her husbands involvement, save a stupid speech she offered at one of their meetings-- which one could argue was used to grab votes for a situation where she ran for gov again.
o_0

Mandark

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #2433 on: October 06, 2008, 01:23:23 AM »
Why isn't the Obama campaign pushing the Palin secessionist thingggg

Cause when they go on the attack, it's almost exclusively tied to the big issues that they're already pushing.  Iraq, the economy, Politics As Usual, the influence of lobbyists, etc.  Even this Keating Five is being framed as relevant to the way Washington works and how economic policy is made.

They don't want to try to keep a straight face while pretending that Palin will consider cutting loose Alaska.  Rather, they'll stay relentlessly on message like Biden in the VP debate.

MrAngryFace

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I also agree with Mandark. If Obama IS going to go negative hard to show he isn't un-kerry to his supporters, this is the angle to work. As for my own opinion, McCain has said far worse things that are NOT true-- not sure why people are balking at this.
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Mandark

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I'm balking because I don't like this sort of stuff in general and because there are some potentially bad practical consequences.

First, Obama's success has had a lot to do with building a reputation as exceptionally honest, positive, and non-frivolous for a politician.  Even if his attacks aren't nearly to the scale of McCain's, some people are going to say "looks like he's just another politician" and tune out.

Besides the short-term damage that would do to Obama's campaign, it would make things harder for a long-term agenda of reform.

A central tenet of Obama's theory of change is that you need an engaged, active electorate in order to break through the influence of special interests (read: industry groups with a lot of money), who would rather keep the status quo.

It's not just enough for a majority of people to favor reform; you need them to really care about it and feel that the political process will reward their efforts, so that elected officials are more worried about pressure from the voters than pressure from big donors.  When cynicism takes over, the failure of politics becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: people are apathetic because they figure the game is rigged, and lobbyists are able to rig the game because people are too apathetic to push back.

I think it's a pretty canny take on the situation, even if I'm not 100% sold on it and I'd like to see him stick with it.

Even if he's framing this as part of a big issue, it does feel like a bit of a departure from that strategy and he should be very careful about how they play this.

MrAngryFace

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I think the dems are just all PTSD about swiftboat
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Mandark

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The funny thing about the Swiftboat crap is how it wound up helping to cripple Bush's second term.

He barely spent any time during the campaign building up support for his domestic agenda, and when he tried to privatize Social Security in 2005 he got smacked down badly.  He didn't have a mandate for his program.  He had a mandate for John Kerry being French and pussified.

I don't just want Obama to win, I want him to actually get something done.  I have a list of demands, damn it.



In opposition to my hand-wringing in the previous post, Josh Marshall's theory of Bitch-Slap Politics.

Fragamemnon

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I don't just want Obama to win, I want him to actually get something done.  I have a list of demands, damn it.

Obama will be in a better position to make his move on the legislative agenda than Bush was, even after 2004. Obama is going to have a 1992 level Democratic House/Senate numbers, without the spirited 1992 Republican opposition. I don't think he needs to worry too much about passing his agenda, provided he ensures that he pays for all of his stuff as he goes (the big sticky point for the Blue Dog Democrats, who are going to find their coalition heavily strained with a Democratic president and increasingly radical GOP House).

One more thing, whether we like it or not Obama has always said that he would fight these kind of attacks with vigor and intensity, and this certainly is a vigorous and intense response to the McCain garbage.
hex

TVC15

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Obama attacking the Keating Five thing isn't a very good idea.  John McCain came out of that looking like something of a whistleblower or reformer, and since it was so long ago, McCain can play the whole "I learned from my mistakes card."  That whole episode is what put him on the path to becoming a major political player.  It *might* be a valid attack point, but it will also give right wing pundits an in to attack Obama.  Just not a very smart move.  The Keating Five thing is just too unpredictable a card to play--I was wondering why they didn't play it earlier, then I thought about it a bit.
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I'm a bit mixed about this, but the McCain campaign has gone completely loco with the Ayers angle - "palling around with terrorists?" fucking please.

The fact that this is more-or-less directly related to the current economic crisis makes it slightly more palatable to me, but November can't get here soon enough.
乱学者

Human Snorenado

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I for one am ecstatic about them choosing to play the Keating Five card.  If we weren't in the middle of an economic crisis right now maybe it wouldn't have been a smart play, but since we are and there are DIRECT parallels between the two, why not? 

TVC- don't be fooled.  McCain came out of Keating chastened to a degree, and yes that's what made him go on his campaign finance reform crusade.  But look at all the fucking lobbyists running his campaign- has he really learned that lesson?  I say no.  On top of that, there were two lessons to learn from the Keating Five and the S&L crisis.  McCain says he learned the first one about people having access to politicians, but he COMPLETELY missed the boat on the one that allowed Charles Keating and other scumfuckers to piss away the life savings of old folks- that our financial institutions require vigorous and comprehensive oversight and regulation. 

If all they're going to do is point at McCain after he plays the Ayers card and scream "Keating!" then it would be one thing.  But it looks like they're going to do the smart thing and tie it into several cards that they've already played- McCain is out of touch on the economy, McCain has poor judgement. 
yar

MrAngryFace

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The Fake Shemp

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This is ridiculous.  Has Obama ever had a friendship with Ayers or is he just a political, professional acquaintance?  If it's the latter - fuck, Keating! - bang home the point of who McCain is palling around with right now.
PSP

TakingBackSunday

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I knew Rev. Wright was gonna show up in October.

Didn't work in the primaries, I don't see it working now.
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duckman2000

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Well, you know they've got nothing when they have to recycle old controversies, especially ones by association. Which again just opens things up to others scrutinizing Palin's own relationships.

At which point does it get bad enough to get them outright disqualified? There should be a rule implemented here, similar to advertising rules in just about every other nation in the world; if the campaign can't be carried on the party's own strengths, it shouldn't be considered a valid campaign. Appearing to be substantial by attempting to tear the other party down really shouldn't be an option on this day and age.

MrAngryFace

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I think, hope, people will just find their side of the fence annoying. I mean I know Obama cant win everyone, but I doubt, hope, that most people see through her shit...and I say her because it stopped being about McCain a while ago. Publicans just love to fawn over their hate monger.
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Wright? really?

wow, it's March all over again

too bad we can't bring up Palin's psychotic Witch Hunter Pastor
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duckman2000

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Why can't we?

Howard Alan Treesong

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because nobody would care because Palin is a hot white female instead of a scary black man

this whole guilt-by-association thing is really distinguished mentally-challenged

everyone worked through Wright, Ayers, Rezko like half-a-year ago

making them the new crux of the campaign is unfathomable
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duckman2000

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As said, it's just a sign that they've got nothing. Like, absolutely nothing.

Howard Alan Treesong

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especially since Palin's religious past is white hot distinguished mentally-challenged (as the NYT article mentions)

I'm just kind of aghast, not because it's "politics as usual" but because it's so boring as all hell
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Flannel Boy

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Why can't we?



Because a third of Americans believe in witches, and they are thankful that there are brave pastors hunting them down.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 12:46:12 PM by Night Man »

Howard Alan Treesong

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ugh, the new attack ad has that woman again

[youtube=425,350]PjEKRIBDv6Q[/youtube]


when she says "How dangerous." and "How dishonorable."

all I hear is "How uppity."

which is the intent, I'm sure.
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duckman2000

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That's the most pathetic political ad I've ever seen

Howard Alan Treesong

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yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think: bring it on!

if I saw one of Obama's ads about fixing the economy, and then I saw McCain's ad about Scary Black Man Land, I would think that Obama is the only one taking this shit seriously. and substance beat personal attacks 2:1 among independents in the debate.

the fact they're recycling the same boring lines of attack is good news - they're desperate, sure, but they look desperate
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: Evilbore's Presidential Election Thread --Its the Final COUNTDOWN Ba da ba b
« Reply #2456 on: October 06, 2008, 01:53:07 PM »
I don't know why you guys think that the Keating ad was a bad thing.  Do you want Obama to lose or what?

Nobody cares about Obama being above the fray.  They haven't cared since Obama's reaction to the Wright BS a few months back.  Being above the fray is how you lose elections.  You can ask John Kerry or Michael Dukakis how being above the fray worked for them.

This is October and McCain has no rules.  Making McCain go on the defensive about corruption in the banking system will do far more damage than Obama being a dirty terrorist.  Security issues are now being replaced with economic issues and pointing out any candidate's weakness regarding the economy is going to be who wins the election.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 01:54:42 PM by The Experiment »
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Howard Alan Treesong

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haha, McCain just referred to Obama as "Barack Hussein Obama" at today's rally

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Brehvolution

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It really shows that the repubs have no shame when tugging on the race and religion strings. It has become ever clearer that republicans only care about themselves and will go against civil liberties and the freedom of religion to cater to the scumbags of America. 
©ZH

hyp

  • Casual Gamer™
  • Senior Member
wow low blow from mccain.  dude must be furious at the keating 5 shit.

update:  just watched it.   :lol  obama's taking the gloves off finally.

http://www.barackobama.com/images/keating/keatingeconomics.mov
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 02:36:12 PM by hyp »
pyh