Author Topic: The NBA thread (Read 1519489 times)

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2820 on:** November 07, 2011, 01:01:32 AM »

The players have to accept that there is no other market for their services that can compete with the NBA, and if the owners want to screw them a bit, it's still a great deal relative to a lockout lasting even a few months or decertification. The percentages of BRI that they are arguing about are relatively trivial - Kevin Garnett could match the difference with his own bank balance, most likely. If the lockout runs to 3 or 4 months, they will have lost more income than they'd get by keeping BRI at 57%. Very frustrating situation. The owners are being complete dicks about the whole thing, and the players are right to be pissed at them. But that's a simple fact of any employment contract, and the players are now acting like they'd rather kill the golden goose than take a few percent less, and that's just dumb.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2821 on:** November 07, 2011, 01:29:30 AM »

btw, that bit in Shaq's book about Obama basically destroying Rondo's psyche was amazing. Damn. Possibly the most tangible effect of his entire presidency so far

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #2822 on:** November 07, 2011, 01:43:49 AM »

Quote from: Cormacaroni on November 07, 2011, 01:29:30 AM

btw, that bit in Shaq's book about Obama basically destroying Rondo's psyche was amazing. Damn. Possibly the most tangible effect of his entire presidency so far

wut?

edit: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/17/shaquille-oneal-obama-rajon-rondo_n_929533.html

etiolate · « **Reply #2823 on:** November 07, 2011, 01:59:15 AM »

politely destroyed

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2824 on:** November 07, 2011, 02:20:23 AM »

simply amazing. This is a dude that played through a dislocated elbow, and a little locker room ribbing from the Prez sent him into a death spiral for about a month

The only way he can come back from this is to humiliate Barack one-on-one in a pickup game

Mr. Gundam · « **Reply #2825 on:** November 10, 2011, 01:09:18 AM »

There's a live press conference right now with Stern, seems weird for something to happen at 10pm PST/1 am EST.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2826 on:** November 10, 2011, 01:19:48 AM »

well, uh, they've been negotiating all day! They were supposed to end at 5pm. They're doing it all over again tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

pilonv1 · « **Reply #2827 on:** November 10, 2011, 04:29:45 AM »

fucking amateurs.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2828 on:** November 10, 2011, 05:57:30 AM »

so depressed, godfuckdamn. The most we can get now is an asterisky 50 game season. The MOST.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2829 on:** November 10, 2011, 07:26:44 AM »

Just to get back to the MJ thing: do these fools not realize that Jordan is being bankrupted by the Bobcats, and having to shell out over the odds for mediocre players just to make them marginally competitive? OF FUCKING COURSE he's in favor of lowering salaries, waiving players with bad contracts, shorter contracts etc. He's probably a billionaire but he's going to be flat broke if he owns the Bobcats much longer.

benjipwns · « **Reply #2830 on:** November 10, 2011, 07:41:24 AM »

You're ignoring that he was their idol growing up and the reason they even played basketball in the first place, and he was a player like them and he's totally betraying them by not helping them make $30+ million a year like he did.

etiolate · « **Reply #2831 on:** November 10, 2011, 07:59:50 AM »

They thought he was black Mickey mouse...

..but he was black Eisner

Michael Jordan is The Charllote-on

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2832 on:** November 10, 2011, 08:14:48 AM »

Quote from: benjipwns on November 10, 2011, 07:41:24 AM

You're ignoring that he was their idol growing up and the reason they even played basketball in the first place, and he was a player like them and he's totally betraying them by not helping them make $30+ million a year like he did.

No, i'm not ignoring it - i'm discounting it. Because all of those reasons are childish and irrational and have no place in a business negotiation. Sure, they can feel however they want. But his grievance with the system is legit, as is theirs. And he made $30 million for like one year - he was probably still the most underpaid player in the history of the game, in terms of salary.

benjipwns · « **Reply #2833 on:** November 10, 2011, 08:19:28 AM »

Why do you hate the current struggling broke players? Betrayed by the very man who gave them everything that has motivated them to become stars today?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

He made $30 million and $33 million in two seasons. 97 and 98.

[close]

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2834 on:** November 10, 2011, 08:28:28 AM »

Nobody on the Hornets is bitching

ok, two seasons. Still the most underpaid NBA player ever

Stoney Mason · « **Reply #2835 on:** November 10, 2011, 08:29:35 AM »

All that's going on is the divide between the MJ was my idol group and the MJ is a businessman group. Dude was never any sort of moral or rights guy. MJ was always about selling you his image and trying to make as many bucks as possible. There was criticism directed at MJ that he never took any of that power during his playing days and made any social, or moral changes. So if he didn't do it then, he's certainly not going to do it now as an owner. It's just time for those guys to take down the MJ posters from their childhood room's and realize its a business.

Joe Molotov · « **Reply #2836 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:57:29 AM »

Quote from: Cormacaroni on November 10, 2011, 05:57:30 AM

so depressed, godfuckdamn. The most we can get now is an asterisky 50 game season. The MOST.

http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/nba-says-they-can-still-salvage-a-10game-season,26601/

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2837 on:** November 10, 2011, 10:23:28 AM »

Quote from: Stoney Mason on November 10, 2011, 08:29:35 AM

All that's going on is the divide between the MJ was my idol group and the MJ is a businessman group. Dude was never any sort of moral or rights guy. MJ was always about selling you his image and trying to make as many bucks as possible. There was criticism directed at MJ that he never took any of that power during his playing days and made any social, or moral changes. So if he didn't do it then, he's certainly not going to do it now as an owner. It's just time for those guys to take down the MJ posters from their childhood room's and realize its a business.

Preach it, Stoney. And how absurd is it to hear these complaints from Stephon Marbury, for example? MJ may have been cold and calculating, but no-one can say he didn't earn every cent. Marbury blatantly inflated his stats to get the best contracts he could, and never lived up to them. He did as much to kill the Knicks as Isaiah Thomas or Dolan. He betrayed every teammate he ever played with, from KG on.

Stoney Mason · « **Reply #2838 on:** November 10, 2011, 11:14:39 PM »

They just got out of another long meeting.
Aldridge tweets.

Quote

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Fisher: if this is league's last best offer we'll have to take that into consideration
4 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Hunter: not the greatest offer in the world, but thinks he owes it to player reps to bring the offer to them
5 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
League has not given time limit for accepting or rejecting new offer.
6 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Hunter: we haven't succeeded yet so you feel in a sense that you haven't fulfilled your mission
8 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Hunter: 30-40 B list issues other than big six system issues, including age limit, commissioner discipline, etc.
9 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Hunter: ...the question now is how player reps will respond next week?
11 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Fisher: I guess I remain in the same place as yesterday-nit enough progress to get a deal done
13 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Fisher: additional issues have come up. On a couple of system issues there was some revision, but not enough.
14 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Union first. Fisher: Revised offer does not meet us all the way on system. Will stop talks for now. Will confer with players/committee.
15 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Union first, then league. Certainly do not expect to hear of any breakthroughs tonight. Only question is whether they keep talking Friday.
21 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Meeting is ending for tonight...
21 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
@
@ATL_GOAT @MariyaChanel um, that was a week ago. Old news.
48 minutes ago

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
10 hrs today. Twenty two hours last two days. As one of the people in the room said hours ago, a long, long list of issues remain...
1 hour ago

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2839 on:** November 10, 2011, 11:25:35 PM »

I don't see how any offer the league can make could possibly be worse for the players than failing to reach an agreement. Even an agreement to play for NO salary would still net more income for many players than not playing at all or playing in China etc.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2840 on:** November 10, 2011, 11:27:26 PM »

Quote

SpearsNBAYahoo Marc J. Spears
Stern: Says news proposal would allow season to start Dec. 15 if accepted with a 72 game season. Next offer would have 47 BRi and flex cap.

I wonder if the players' salaries are prorated to number of games played, as opposed to number of days in the season. If the former, they wouldn't lose THAT much....

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2841 on:** November 11, 2011, 12:14:33 AM »

Quote

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski As one Eastern Conference executive just texted about 72 game sked: "Instead of (the players) missing two checks, they will only miss one."

They have to take it, pride be damned. Getting a little screwed by the Man is better than totally fucking yourself.

etiolate · « **Reply #2842 on:** November 11, 2011, 12:27:33 AM »

the free agent blitz would be entertaining

after all this posturing, i expect idiots like the maloofs to go right out and blow their load on middling players

not that small market teams have other alternatives

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2843 on:** November 11, 2011, 12:35:01 AM »

Quote from: etiolate on November 11, 2011, 12:27:33 AM

the free agent blitz would be entertaining

after all this posturing, i expect idiots like the maloofs to go right out and blow their load on middling players

not that small market teams have other alternatives

It's been proven that scoring big in the draft is the only real way to get ahead in the NBA. Overpaying for non-franchise players certainly doesn't do it - it just keeps you from losing hard enough to win in the draft.

etiolate · « **Reply #2844 on:** November 11, 2011, 12:45:12 AM »

you have to score real big in the draft though, get a player who will be top 5 one day

If you just draft well, even for many years, you top out as an 8th seed.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2845 on:** November 11, 2011, 01:23:13 AM »

Any strategy is ultimately a long shot with a 30 team league, surely that's understood here. Concentrating on bottoming out and drafting big is still a far better strategy than 'blowing their load on middling players'

Stoney Mason · « **Reply #2846 on:** November 11, 2011, 01:20:19 PM »

Quote

Nothing left to yell about
November, 11, 2011
NOV 11

By Henry Abbott

Some things just sound like news.

David Stern’s no-holds-barred ultimatum of Wednesday at 5 o’clock was a jolt to the system. Similarly, Billy Hunter's calling a premature end to a meeting a few weeks ago packed a punch.

But a lot has happened since. Essentially, all of the really big issues have been negotiated. And now, while there is still no deal, it strains credulity to suggest we could lose an incredibly promising (and, let's be honest, multibillion-dollar) season over, say, incremental tweaks to the mini-midlevel exception for taxpaying teams.

That exception, by the way, would apply to maybe 10 players a year.

What’s happening in these talks now is simply not writ large. What divides now are things that would struggle to make headlines in economics journals, let alone The Wall Street Journal.

This is a sign of both how close the two sides are and how much little things can matter.

“Some of them,” deputy commissioner Adam Silver said, “are philosophical points, for example about creating more movement in the system. And I think for all of us -- they have an economist running models, we have in-house cap people running models -- it’s going to be hard to predict precisely what behavior will be under a new system.

“We continue to have a disagreement about what the free-agency market will look like. One of their major points has been freeing up taxpayers to be in the market for free agents. That’s something we don’t want to see.”

The league has long wanted to make it not just expensive -- via steep luxury tax -- for high-salary teams such as the Lakers and Mavericks to add players when they are already paying luxury tax. It also wants to make it impossible.

Many of the salary-cap loopholes the league wanted closed in the name of competitive balance have been reopened by the players in the name of giving free agents choices.

But the most commonly used one, and the engine of NBA free agency, the midlevel exception, is the hot issue now. It used to be that any free agent in the league could be offered more than $30 million over five years by any team in the league. That’s a lot of leverage for players who are, by definition, not max players. There’s a reason the league’s least efficient contracts are given to players via the midlevel exception.

Both sides have agreed it will be a much smaller exception in the future, with a total value halved, to about $15 million.

Agents say this concession will cost future free agents a fortune. The league replies that players will make 50 percent of basketball related income regardless -- with finite roster spots, the money has to go somewhere. There is only so much leverage free agents could lose.

Meanwhile, both sides have agreed that teams in the luxury tax will not be able to use the regular midlevel exception, but will instead have a special, smaller mini-midlevel. It was something the players proposed and the league initially rejected. Now the league has not only agreed to it, but made its offer a bit bigger -- Hunter says the league now is saying it would like to let taxpaying teams offer a three-year deal starting at $3 million. “We tweaked that over the last few days," Silver said, "and we tweaked some other aspects of our proposal as well -- all aimed at creating a more robust offer for free agents.”

Put it all together, and you get nothing much to get riled up about, and therefore a lockout that's most assuredly nearly done.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33231/nothing-left-to-yell-about

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2847 on:** November 11, 2011, 06:52:59 PM »

I read that too, but it clashes with basically everything else I've read in terms of the likelihood of a deal getting done.

I mean, teams want to have the option to send a player to the D-League at any time during his first 5 years, and put him on D-League salary? Come on. Blake Griffin gets injured again like in his rookie year, Donald Sterling gets to pay him 65,000 per year instead of 4.5 million. Don't tell me he's not dumb or greedy enough to do it.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #2848 on:** November 14, 2011, 02:15:00 PM »

Quote

NEW YORK -- NBA Players Association executive director Billy Hunter says the union will not accept the owners' proposed collective bargaining agreement and will seek to disband the union and act as a trade association.

The union, whose members have been locked out since July 1st, also plans to pursue an antitrust lawsuit against the NBA, a move that likely jeopardizes the 2011-12 season.

"As of this moment, we're going to be in the process of converting the NBA Players Association into a trade associaton," Hunter said Monday.

Hunter said the union has negotiated in good faith over two years and feels that they have given enough, while the NBA was "not willing and prepared to negotiate."

"The players feel that they are not prepared to accept any ultimatums," Hunter said.

"Going forward, collective bargaining will not be how this process continues for us," added union president Derek Fisher. "We'll let our legal team really lead the charge."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7234180/nba-lockout-players-not-accept-deal-seek-decertify-billy-hunter-says

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2849 on:** November 14, 2011, 06:28:38 PM »

woke up to this and the Community news

the only TV show i watch weekly, and the only sport i follow. :'(

Stoney Mason · « **Reply #2850 on:** November 14, 2011, 06:56:06 PM »

Joe Molotov · « **Reply #2851 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:02:11 PM »

I hope David Stern and Billy Hunter both lose their jobs and/or lives.

pilonv1 · « **Reply #2852 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:03:33 PM »

www.nbl.com.au

Watch Patty Mills!

etiolate · « **Reply #2853 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:10:13 PM »

dumbasses

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #2854 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:14:46 PM »

So now the NBA gets to drop a bomb on the players once things restart

pilonv1 · « **Reply #2855 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:26:46 PM »

http://www.nbpa.org/

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #2856 on:** November 14, 2011, 09:47:35 PM »

Any settlement should involve Stern and Billy being forced to live in a little hut together for the rest of their lives. Mostly though it should involve Stern being ousted, he's run the NBA like his own personal fiefdom for too long.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2857 on:** November 14, 2011, 09:54:27 PM »

Well, he's brought a lot of success with that. This is a major, major blow to his legacy though (if anyone gives a rat's ass about commissioner's legacies...). Doesn't matter how tough or smart or determined he was - he didn't get a $4 billion deal done because he let both sides fixate on relatively trivial issues like mid-level exceptions for luxury tax teams that affect practically no-one.

Mandark · « **Reply #2858 on:** November 14, 2011, 10:10:07 PM »

This seems really dumb. No way could the concessions the players are looking for have been worth the game checks that they're going to miss. It sucks that the owners get all the leverage for being willing to walk away from talks, but that's the reality of it.

On the owner's side, they were basically going to either get a win or maintain the status quo on every single issue. All they needed was some relatively tiny concessions to make the players feel as if they had won something, but the owners wouldn't even give them that. It's almost like it's more important for some of the owners to make some show of dominance rather than make changes to the current financial system.

Stoney Mason · « **Reply #2859 on:** November 14, 2011, 10:18:21 PM »

The owners came into this thing with a my way or the highway approach and its been inevitable that this was going to be the conclusion.

Incredibly dumb way to sabotage yourself after sparking great interest in the league the prior season.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2860 on:** November 14, 2011, 10:20:13 PM »

I find it hard to believe that the Union didn't even put it to a fucking vote though. What the hell. I'm sure a lot of guys talk tough but would have signed it anonymously.

Stoney Mason · « **Reply #2861 on:** November 14, 2011, 10:26:57 PM »

Quote from: Cormacaroni on November 14, 2011, 10:20:13 PM

I find it hard to believe that the Union didn't even put it to a fucking vote though. What the hell. I'm sure a lot of guys talk tough but would have signed it anonymously.

It was always about saving face for them. They are getting raped this go around. I suppose the logical option would have been to take the raping and just earn it back on the next negotiation when the economy has improved and things most likely would be stable. But I just think their pride/ignorance got in the way this time.

edit: And let me put that word "raping" in context. It's a bad deal in a relative fight between millionaires and billionaires. Its not a raping in any other context outside of rich professional athletes and owners.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #2862 on:** November 14, 2011, 10:33:04 PM »

It's almost like the league had spent decades promoting a star based sport and then were surprised when they didn't just get kicked into line to take their paycuts like good serfs or something. #teamsportsrule

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #2863 on:** November 14, 2011, 10:38:09 PM »

The Age of Ferdette is temporarily delayed

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2864 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:00:01 PM »

As in all things, people want to blame LeBron's uppitiness for this but fuck it, the dude was a free agent, the Heat played by the rules as far as we know, and the move to Miami resulted in an awesome season/playoffs. If the league/owners don't see that as a good thing, they're blind.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #2865 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:11:55 PM »

It's a good thing, but it's short term. The problem with the NBA is that only like 7-8 teams matter, if that much. So you're left with a bunch of markets/teams no one cares about with few prospects/upside. Free agents move from big market to big market*, or small market to big market like LeBron. Sure the small teams get nice revenue streams, although not to the degree of say the NFL obviously.

*Miami isn't the biggest market, but it has obvious benefits that separate it

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2866 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:25:00 PM »

bah, not this crap again

Who won last year? The Mavs.

We also saw the Grizzlies and the Thunder beat big, established teams to advance, and a young team in Chicago almost make it all the way. Any team can make it if they have a good strategy and a bit of luck.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2867 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:27:24 PM »

Even if we accept your premise for the moment that only 7 or 8 teams matter, that's still way enough for a hugely compelling playoffs. And even when it was only 1 or 2 teams that mattered, people still tuned in in droves. The only thing that turns people off the NBA is teams making no attempt at offense, and trying to keep the opponent below 70, as far as I can see.

Himu · « **Reply #2868 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:29:09 PM »

@ thread title

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #2869 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:34:00 PM »

Quote from: Green Man on November 14, 2011, 10:19:59 PM

Disband the NBA and start over.

Bring back the ABA!

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #2870 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:38:08 PM »

Quote from: Cormacaroni on November 14, 2011, 11:27:24 PM

Even if we accept your premise for the moment that only 7 or 8 teams matter, that's still way enough for a hugely compelling playoffs. And even when it was only 1 or 2 teams that mattered, people still tuned in in droves. The only thing that turns people off the NBA is teams making no attempt at offense, and trying to keep the opponent below 70, as far as I can see.

So we continue with multiple franchises failing because the playoffs are kind of exciting after 82 games? meh

imo cut some teams, decrease the regular season, and limit guaranteed contracts like the NFL; no more Eddie Curry's making bank to sit on the bench and do nothing.

Himu · « **Reply #2871 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:41:14 PM »

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on November 14, 2011, 11:38:08 PM

So we continue with multiple franchises failing because the playoffs are kind of exciting after 82 games? meh

imo cut some teams, decrease the regular season, and limit guaranteed contracts like the NFL; no more Eddie Curry's making bank to sit on the bench and do nothing.

This. This would get me back and watch NBA year round like I did when I was a kid.

Smooth Groove · « **Reply #2872 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:44:01 PM »

NBA2K12 needs to add an achievement for ejecting the game right before it's about to begin.

etiolate · « **Reply #2873 on:** November 15, 2011, 12:04:12 AM »

I don't think the NBA needs to cut teams. I think reducing the amount of games would help the product, but I'm not sure how many in this lockout are concerned with product. They need competitive balance, which means fixing the financial system, but also the way the game is called and as well the way the game is advertised. Stern has had plenty of time to realize his way of doing things no longer works and hasn't made a peep about changing those last two things.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #2874 on:** November 15, 2011, 12:06:52 AM »

Change advertising how? Every league focuses on star promotion

pilonv1 · « **Reply #2875 on:** November 15, 2011, 12:09:27 AM »

Quote from: Smooth Groove on November 14, 2011, 11:44:01 PM

NBA2K12 needs to add an achievement for ejecting the game right before it's about to begin.

Fine by me, terrible game

etiolate · « **Reply #2876 on:** November 15, 2011, 12:09:34 AM »

They also promote the sport itself and teams far more than the NBA does. Basketball is an entertaining product in itself, but that has been forgotten.

Cormacaroni · « **Reply #2877 on:** November 15, 2011, 01:57:32 AM »

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on November 14, 2011, 11:38:08 PM

Quote from: Cormacaroni on November 14, 2011, 11:27:24 PM
Even if we accept your premise for the moment that only 7 or 8 teams matter, that's still way enough for a hugely compelling playoffs. And even when it was only 1 or 2 teams that mattered, people still tuned in in droves. The only thing that turns people off the NBA is teams making no attempt at offense, and trying to keep the opponent below 70, as far as I can see.

So we continue with multiple franchises failing because the playoffs are kind of exciting after 82 games? meh

imo cut some teams, decrease the regular season, and limit guaranteed contracts like the NFL; no more Eddie Curry's making bank to sit on the bench and do nothing.

You're upset about multiple franchises failing and your solution is to cut some teams?

I actually have problem with contraction. It would hide lack of talent in lean years and accentuate it further in boom periods like right now. If it just offends you on principle that a team like the Bobcats even exists, just do what I do and don't watch the Bobcats! It's not like there aren't always 3 other better games on that night.

Limiting guaranteed contracts is fine but you know, they already ARE limited. Teams used to try to lock up players for their whole careers. The problem is just that nobody can ever tell if a player will live up to his contract or not. And shorter contracts wouldn't be entirely positive either - you'd see even more Stephon Marbury-types padding their stats at every opportunity.

CajoleJuice · « **Reply #2878 on:** November 15, 2011, 02:00:37 AM »

Quote from: pilonv1 on November 15, 2011, 12:09:27 AM

Quote from: Smooth Groove on November 14, 2011, 11:44:01 PM
NBA2K12 needs to add an achievement for ejecting the game right before it's about to begin.

Fine by me, terrible game

Really? I thought it was supposed to be good.

Mandark · « **Reply #2879 on:** November 15, 2011, 02:10:49 AM »

Shorter PD: Make it more like college hoops.

Shorter etiolate: Fix it so the Kings are good again.

Shorter Cormac: More teams, less carbs.

News:

Author Topic: The NBA thread (Read 1519489 times)