Author Topic: The NBA thread  (Read 1519553 times)

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etiolate

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I think Harden is the 2nd most important guy on that Thunder squad.

Cormacaroni

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It's a hell of a question, that...certainly when he's on the floor and Westbrook is on the bench, he's their most important player. Harden plays PG and Durant becomes the secondary option. Any one of them can carry the team for whole quarters, which is my definition of a superstar. They're all incredibly important and have very different strengths. In terms of sheer talent, I think it's Durant > Westbrook > Harden but their relative impact on the game rises and falls from quarter to quarter.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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People are just beginning to get to grips with how scary good those three are (all this nonsense about them breaking through when they already got to the WCF LAST YEAR...) so perhaps it's easier to understand if you imagine Dirk, Wade and Manu Ginobili all on the same team in their athletic primes (but not yet at the peak of their skills).
vjj

Mandark

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Amazing what a difference a bit of floor-spacing makes eh. LeBron and Wade can just wreak havoc with even competent 3pt shooting. Just imagine if they'd picked up, say, two or three Steve Novaks or Matt Bonners rather than Miller or Battier. Hollinger had a good line about how Riley has an irrational devotion to (perceived) hard workers like Zo or Haslem or Battier rather than players who are demonstrably productive but maybe don't dial it up to 10 in practice or on every single play vs the Raptors in mid-January...it explains a lot, really. Overpaying for sheer grit is good for the culture but doesn't necessarily result in a well-built (i.e. varied and flexible) team.

Well, Miller and Battier were meant to be the floor-spacers.  They both had good career 3P%, only to crater when they joined Miami (though Miller's bounced back this season).  Plus they were meant to bring some other skills to the table, like defense for Battier and auxiliary ballhandling from Miller.  One-dimensional shooters like Novak are sometimes deemed not worth it by pretty smart people; in Tim Legler's last season he hit a couple big 3's for the Spurs in the Finals and an international reporter asked Pop why he didn't play Legler more, and Popovich looked at the guy like he was an idiot.

The problem for Miami isn't that they didn't try to sign shooters, but that they overpaid for older role players who couldn't live up to their reputations, like when the Cavs signed Donyell Marshall, or when the Hornets gave James Posey $24 million after his year with the Celtics.

The Spurs, meanwhile, manage to find good shooters who are dirt cheap, young-ish, can contribute in other ways, and can compliment their (youngish, cheap, contributing) big men. But any time we talk about how the Spurs run things compared to other teams it feels like we're doing Goofus and Gallant.

Cormacaroni

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Think we're on the same page there, Mandark
vjj

etiolate

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I wonder how much appeasing the team superstar comes into what type of role players you get. Whenever I hear a team is in "win now" mode to help their star, it normally ends in overpaying for older, bigger name guys that break down. It didn't ever feel like the Spurs were in a desperate mode even though Duncan's been in his twilight for a few seasons. Maybe I am just not remembering it at the moment. They did go after Richard Jefferson I suppose. Leonard is basically everything RJ was supposed to be but cheaper.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 03:59:40 AM by etiolate »

Cormacaroni

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There was never any question of Duncan going elsewhere, even in his brief flirtation with the Magic, so I doubt they ever felt pressure to sign anyone on his behalf. The Spurs haven't really overpaid for anybody except Jefferson that I can remember. And Duncan, like KG, is playing better than he has in 3 or 4 years at least so his twilight may not even be upon us yet. I bet Manu is out of the league first actually...

Lots of teams have shot themselves in the foot in the way you describe - I think the Raptors signings when Vince threatened to leave where among the worst ever.
vjj

Mandark

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On the topic of spacing for halfcourt offense GOD DAMN but the Spurs are a well-oiled machine.  I know this is nothing new, but I hardly got to watch them during the regular season.

Surrounding their Big 3 with shooters isn't a new idea, but the way they play is so much more dynamic than it used to be.  The way I remember their series against the Pistons was either they'd throw it in to Duncan or have Parker/Ginobili create from the top of the key, usually on a pick and roll, and if they drew multiple defenders towards the basket they'd pass to an open man outside, who would usually keep it moving around the 3-point line and they'd get an open three.  It was predictable but effective.

But now?  It seems like everybody on the roster is either a guard who can shoot or a big who can catch the ball and finish at the rim, and their pick and roll plays just attack the basket from all sorts of angles.  Everybody seems to know how to work with everyone else, and if anyone's not moving it's because they're spacing the floor for the guy with the ball.  The really basic principles haven't changed, but the offense seems so much more complex and varied.  Now I'm kicking myself for missing out and hoping they keep it up next year.

Cormacaroni

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told ya
vjj

Stoney Mason

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Quote
Pacers: Bird calls his team S-O-F-T
5 hours ago | Written by Mike Wells
MIAMI – Indiana Pacers president Larry Bird doesn’t do a lot of interviews. He prefers to stay in the background and let his players get the attention.

But when Bird talks, you listen.

That was the case about two hours after the Pacers suffered the worst playoff loss in franchise history – 115-83 – in Game 5 against the Miami Heat.

“I can’t believe my team went soft,” Bird said on the phone. “S-O-F-T. I’m disappointed. I never thought it would happen.”

When asked to elaborate on those comments, an obviously frustrated Bird said, “That’s all I have to say.”

Those are the strongest words I’ve ever heard Bird say about his team – good or bad – in my seven-plus years of covering the Pacers.

Yahoo! Sports’ Adrian Wojnarowski tweeted, “you knew Larry Bird wasn’t going to sit this one out.”

Bird, who played in 164 playoff games during his Hall of Fame career with the Boston Celtics, sat in his seat at American Airlines Arena fuming as he watched what was once a confident Pacers team early in series get softer as each second went off the clock against the Heat on Tuesday.

As center Roy Hibbert put it, LeBron and Wade were having an “And-1 mix tape out there. They were just dunking, having fun and doing whatever the hell they wanted.”

I was watching SportsCenter in my hotel room and lost count how many highlight reel plays from James and Wade that they showed.

Wade and James have run circles around the Pacers in their three victories in the series. It’s like somebody’s controlling the two All Stars on the video game NBA Jam. That’s how easy it’s been for those two.

Danny Granger’s sprained left ankle can’t be used as the reason behind the Pacers’ brutal performance.

They likely weren’t going to win with him in the lineup.

His loss just made things even worse for the Pacers.

Granger’s injury was the perfect opportunity for Paul George to show he’s ready to take the next step.

National television. Against two of the best wing players in the world. And in the playoffs.

Nope, he scored nine points on 2-of-9 shooting in the second half.

I know Heat big men Udonis Haslem and Dexter Pittman like to deliver flagrant fouls (both of those should have been flagrant 2’s), but remember when the Pacers used to throw the ball into the post to Hibbert and West?

The two have combined for 36 points in the past two games.

“They knew we were going to pound the ball inside,” Frank Vogel said. “That was been a challenge for us all series. They stepped up their defense and put more focus on our inside game. We certainly didn’t play well in the second half.”

Bird has spoken. Now we’ll see if his players respond to being publicly embarrassed – on the court and by their president – or if they’ll curl up in the fetal position in Game 6 on Thursday.

If they do, the Pacers can go ahead and start their summer vacation now to avoid another embarrassing loss.

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2012/05/23/pacers-bird-calls-his-team-s-o-f-t/

Cormacaroni

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No-one cares about the Celtics vs #2 Eastern Conf 2013 76ers then :'(

I am so sure the Cs are gonna cough this one up, before taking game 7 in a nail-biter. It's hard to imagine any kind of offensive streak lasting with this team. But you should all watch for the Rondo anyway. Maybe he'll get traded to the Lakers or something and people will care about how freakin' insanely good this kid is.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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Damn straight, mark it down yo,  2013 #2 seed!

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I have to stick to that  :(
[close]
püp

Cormacaroni

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hey, maybe Evan Turner will learn to dribble and/or shoot
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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maybe even speak!
püp

Stoney Mason

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Quote
The NBA has come down hard on Miami Heat players Udonis Haslem and Dexter Pittman, suspending them for retaliatory flagrant fouls during Game 5 of their playoff series with the Indiana Pacers on Tuesday night.

Eastern Conference Playoffs
Get all the news and commentary on the Heat-Pacers matchup on ESPN.com's matchup page.

Haslem was suspended by NBA executive vice president Stu Jackson for Thursday's Game 6 and Pittman was suspended for three games. Pacers forward Tyler Hansbrough, who also committed a flagrant foul on Heat star Dwyane Wade, had his foul upgraded to a flagrant foul 2 from a flagrant 1, but he avoided suspension.

Cormacaroni

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Dr Shaq wants to run the Magic, wow.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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they upgraded hansbrough's to a flagrant 2?  that's stupid.

also, really sucks haslem is out.  he's been hitting jumpers pretty well the last two games.  wonder if battier can step up again.
püp

Cormacaroni

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absolutely gruesome game so far, 33-31 at the half. Like watching WWI trench warfare.
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Cormacaroni

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Ibaka being on there is a joke
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Cs shoot 33%, worst in the Big 3 era. Why am I always so fucking right.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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Sixers #2 seed  8)
püp

Cormacaroni

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 Anytime I can bait you into repeating that in public, I count as a win 8)
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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If it happens next season, you're totes my bitch for the offseason
püp

Cormacaroni

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oh sure but it's wildly unlikely unless they score a major trade or something. There is no reasonable basis that I can see for expecting them to improve. If anything, Collins has them playing above their talent level right now, and they could backslide if they burn out on him and someone else is installed.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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They're a very young team that plays pretty good team basketball.  No major stars or anything; they're neither too strong or too weak in any department.  I think Collins is a good enough coach to realize this teams potential and elevate them to a serious threat in the east.  2 is obviously stretching it, but I could definitely see a 5, 4, or 3.
püp

Cormacaroni

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They are elevated as high as they can get, for a bunch of marginal talents that can't score to save their lives :lol

They are getting by on athleticism and hustle on defense but there is no upside there. They won't get any BETTER at defense by getting a year older or being coached by the same guy for a 3rd year. As long as they are near the bottom of the league in scoring, they're not moving upward.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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Hmm.  Yeah I suppose.  Turner keeps showing glimpses of greatness, so I think he gets better next season.  And to me, a good defense ALWAYS should be priority to effective offense.  We saw them keep the Celtics to 70ish points tonight.  Of course, that was a fluke (the C's missed a bunch of open shots), but if they can keep teams to around 80-85 points a game, they ALWAYS have an opportunity to win those games.

Shut up, I just like the 76ers  :lol
püp

Cormacaroni

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Clearly John Hollinger hates BrandNew - from the 'Whose stock is in decline?' column today (my bolding):

Quote
Evan Turner, Sixers: The casual inference is that because Philly moved Turner into the starting lineup and made a deep playoff run, Turner must be making a strong impact.

Er, not so much.

Turner is shooting 35.6 percent and has not made a 3-pointer the entire playoffs. Combine that with his low rate of free throw attempts, and he has the third-worst true shooting percentage of any player with at least 150 playoff minutes. (The other two are coming up in a second here.) Although Turner provides his usual phenomenal rebounding from the wing, his defense has been shaky and his offensive role far too prominent for his production.

Turner had the worst adjusted plus/minus on the Sixers in the regular season and does again in the playoffs, according to basketballvalue.com. One wonders whether and when the Sixers will consider a move back to Game 4 catalyst Jodie Meeks to put a higher-percentage shooting option on the floor. - http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/story/_/page/PERDiem-120523/nba-playoffs-players-stock-declining
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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uh, well, like, but, um...

intangibles dude!
püp

Cormacaroni

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I like the Sixers too, and there are times when Turner looks like a young Tracy McGrady. But they are still very few and far between. And a lot of players look like being great for brief flashes....very few of them ever make an All-Star team. Just to pick a totally random example - there are Raptors fans right now trying to talk themselves into the idea that DeMar DeRozan will be the next big thing at the 2 guard in a few years. I'm not gonna say it'll never happen, but there are a ton of guys like Turner that will never amount of jack shit.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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Heat and Pacers on.

Indy resorting to shame ball pretty early in this.  I'm drowning in fuck
püp

Cormacaroni

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LeBron and Wade could combine for 40 and lose this game :lol They just have no other scoring.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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Wades having a great game
püp

TakingBackSunday

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2013 #2 seed is winning game 7.  You heard it here first  8)
püp

Phoenix Dark

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oh noes Miami is imploding, they've never been a good team, they're lucky to have made the playoffs etc etc
010

Cormacaroni

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from @tomhaberstroh on twitter - Over last three games: LeBron+Wade 197, Pacers' entire starting lineup 184.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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holy fuck :rofl
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Stoney Mason

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Wades having a great game

That was his best game in a really long time. Amazing FG%.

Miami versus Boston should be interesting although I'm rooting for a 76ers fluke win because they suck and Miami would roll them easily.

etiolate

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I was sort of looking forward to the media meltdown if they didn't have Miami around to cruise on with prewritten material.

Cormacaroni

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The Celtics are sooooooo banged up by now, I don't think they have any more than a 10% chance of beating the Heat. Wade or LeBron would have to get hurt or miss games, basically. They still have no answer for Rondo or KG but Bradley was their best hope against Wade, and he's out for the season now. Ray Allen's ankles are fucked and he can't stay in front of anybody or shoot, so that leaves Pietrus. Pierce has a strained MCL that has him at around 70%. He'll soldier on and get his, but no way is he going to hold LeBron below his usual output. The Cs also lack any kind of outside threat other than Pierce, so Boston will likely be able to pack it in and keep Rondo/KG from scoring much in the paint.

Still, for much of the season I thought they were gone in the 1st round, so even making it this far is some kind of an accomplishment for an old squad in a compacted schedule. (aside - KG and Tim Duncan, racking up 20-10s after that season? How?!)
vjj

etiolate

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Yeah, Rondo will have to have a legendary series for the Celtics to win that match-up.

Smooth Groove

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http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/24/all-NBA-teams/

Kobe garners most points at guard with a 21.0 PER

Basketball writers are as bad as Baseball HOF voters. 

Stoney Mason

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Quote
The totals for the last three games, the Heat's reversal from the brink after falling down 2-1, are wild. James averaged 32.7 points, 11.3 rebounds and eight assists on 55 percent shooting. Wade averaged 33 points (he scored 99 in the three games, James 98), 7.3 rebounds and 3.7 assists on 62 percent shooting.


Also

Quote
John Hollinger ‏@johnhollinger
Miami now gets a bye to the NBA Finals, where they await the winner of OKC-San Antonio.

 :lol
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 10:24:00 AM by Stoney Mason »

Flannel Boy

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http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/24/all-NBA-teams/

Kobe garners most points at guard with a 21.0 PER

Basketball writers are as bad as Baseball HOF voters.

Melo over Aldridge?
Chandler over Duncan or Al Jefferson,?
Rondo?

Flannel Boy

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Kobe is like evolution. The majority of experts(players, coaches, GMs, experts) have validated his place in NBA lore endlessly. However, there is a faction of people who refuse to accept him, and find whatever reasons to discredit him.

 :smug

Cormacaroni

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Quote
The totals for the last three games, the Heat's reversal from the brink after falling down 2-1, are wild. James averaged 32.7 points, 11.3 rebounds and eight assists on 55 percent shooting. Wade averaged 33 points (he scored 99 in the three games, James 98), 7.3 rebounds and 3.7 assists on 62 percent shooting.

Also

Quote
John Hollinger ‏@johnhollinger
Miami now gets a bye to the NBA Finals, where they await the winner of OKC-San Antonio.

 :lol

Well, they've basically had a bye to the Finals since Rose went down, and even then I had picked them to make it. But yeah, watching this Sixers-Celtics series would make any observer think that they are the two worst teams of all time, while the last 3 games of Heat-Pacers would have you convinced that Zeus and Apollo have descended to the world of man to teach us how to play basketball
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Kobe is like evolution. The majority of experts(players, coaches, GMs, experts) have validated his place in NBA lore endlessly. However, there is a faction of people who refuse to accept him, and find whatever reasons to discredit him.

 :smug

So Lebron is God?

Cormacaroni

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Which other All-NBA player would be out of the playoffs in the 2nd round for the 2nd year running with Bynum and Gasol backing him up?
vjj

Cormacaroni

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a li'l tidbit from the Professor to illustrate just what a big deal it is for the Cs to lose Bradley's defense right now

Quote
'The Sixers have averaged 86.0 points per 100 possessions with Bradley on the court and 102.8 with him off it, according to NBA.com's advanced stats tool (which also the source of the other goodies you'll see further down).'

The guy is an absolute MONSTER.
vjj

Stoney Mason

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Was a really ugly game and series to watch so I'm glad that 76ers and Celtics series is in the past now. Tomorrow is an amazing game though.

Spurs Thunder

 :hump

Cormacaroni

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God the Cs are gonna get rolled so bad by the Heat. 4-1, I say. Pierce and Allen should have had surgery and be on a beach already. KG has worn down from all the minutes and playing the 5. Even without Bosh, the Heat will have zero problems.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Today, America's hopes are crushed as the Thunder lose by 10.

Holling points out that the Spurs have gone 34 and 4 in the last 38 games Parker started (i.e. the ones Pop didn't tank - or try to).

Let's think about that. If they were in an unending series against a rotation of teams drawn from the entire league, the rest-of-league would have to play them 38 times in order to get 4 wins against them. The Thunder are way better than the average team, but they only get 7 chances at best.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Ugh, these playoffs have been horrible compared to last year. To me, the only suspenseful series was Clips-Grizz and everyone knew that one was ultimately meaningless.

oh well, game on :) Better than no game!
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Fun stuff so far, banishing those horrible Sixers-Celtics memories real fast. Parker vs Westbrook is kerrazzzy.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Kawhi Leonard's hands are enormous
vjj

Stoney Mason

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Just got off battlefield to start watching.

Let's do this.

Cormacaroni

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:lol Fisher is gettin' the love for killing the Spurs, flashbacks to 0.4 etc...

Cue Brooks falling in love with Fisher for the rest of the series and watching Tony Parker rack up video game numbers while Fisher fails to top 20% shooting the rest of the way.
vjj

Stoney Mason

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Thunder played well but the spurs are just too good.

Cormacaroni

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Ginobili schooled Nu-Ginobili pretty hard
vjj