The NBA thread

[TakingBackSunday]

alcohol on the trophies...smh

[TakingBackSunday]

I sorta hope Eddy Curry gets caught tonight snorting coke off of some miami whore's ass

[Stoney Mason]

Steve Nash says he wouldn't mind playing for the Knicks.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/06/21/nash-says-the-magic-words-will-consider-the-knicks-in-free-agency/?ls=iref:nbahpt1


And we still have the summer olympics which should be fun.

[naff]

@ bosh. Man, I was really hoping the series would draw out to 7, I love both teams, but I'm happy Miami won just because LeBron deserves that shit like no-one else. Only game I was able to watch live was the first in the series

Will download and watch the last 2 games this weekend

[Phoenix Dark]

I sorta hope Eddy Curry gets caught tonight snorting coke off of some miami male whore's ass

fixed, not that there's anything wrong with that

[Phoenix Dark]

Ran across many Peyton comparisons tonight. While both are cases of super stars who's prowess will likely never be seriously questioned again after winning their first championship, Peyton's win was more impressive. Beating the top three ranked defenses in the playoffs including the Super Bowl in horrible weather...

[Cormacaroni]

So LeBron needs to quit basketball for a year and win the Superbowl to REALLY silence everybody? Got it

[Phoenix Dark]

 

I'm not saying that! But I do think the goal post has been moved by some. "Oh, LeBron didn't play any truly great teams!"

[Human Snorenado]

Ran across many Peyton comparisons tonight. While both are cases of super stars who's prowess will likely never be seriously questioned again after winning their first championship, Peyton's win was more impressive. Beating the top three ranked defenses in the playoffs including the Super Bowl in horrible weather...

Whoa whoa whoa.  Simmer down now.  Lebron never had to overcome Fetushead syndrome to win his championship.

[Cormacaroni]

I'm not saying that! But I do think the goal post has been moved by some. "Oh, LeBron didn't play any truly great teams!"

I will grant that he didn't have to go through the Bulls, which was a big break. And I think last year's Mavs could have given them fits again, as the Spurs would likely have done. Still, no asterisks on this one as far as I'm concerned.

[Human Snorenado]

He won and is probably the best player playing today.  No asterisk should be in the conversation.

[Phoenix Dark]

lock out season asterisk!

NBA Champion (2012)
NBA Finals MVP (2012)
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (2009–2010, 2012)
8× NBA All-Star (2005–2012)
NBA scoring champion (2008)
6× All-NBA First Team (2006, 2008–2012)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2005, 2007)
4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009–2012)

[Cormacaroni]

He won and is probably* the best player playing today.  No asterisk should be in the conversation.

fixed

[Phoenix Dark]

[Brehvolution]

Congrats to Lebron. He earned it.

[Robo]

Wtf was that Perkins

[ferrarimanf355]

I wanna see the celebrations in Seattle. 

[Smooth Groove]

Skip doesn't disappoint.

[Human Snorenado]

Untrue- he's still breathing, so I AM DISAPPOINT.

[Mandark]

LBJ may not have the clutch gene, but Skip Bayless seems to be short a whole chromosome.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay, feel a bit guilty about that one.

[close]

[Brehvolution]

Wtf was that Perkins

(Image removed from quote.)

To be fair, this is the move I use all the time in NBA2K11. If they don't bight I pass.

[Phoenix Dark]

Skip doesn't disappoint.

Skip is sort of right in the sense that this wasn't a close game, we don't know how he would have responded against a better team etc BUT...the dude got a triple double and dominated the finals. His numbers were insane all during the playoffs, there is no way to shit talk him right now.

"Clutch" doesn't just mean the final four minutes of a game. Last night was a clutch game. Durant showed up. LeBron showed up. (Westbrook didn't).

[Stoney Mason]

In a surprise ruling on Friday, New York Knicks' Jeremy Lin and Steve Novak, Los Angeles Clippers' Chauncey Billups and Portland Trail Blazers' J.J. Hickson secured Bird and early Bird rights in a hearing between the NBA players' association and the league.

The decision was made by arbitrator Kenneth Dam, who affirmed that players claimed off waivers are able to retain their valuable Bird and early Bird rights when they become free agents. That means that if Lin, Billups, Novak and Hickson re-sign, their teams can go over the salary cap. The Celtics were the first team to use this exception, re-signing star Larry Bird to go over the cap.

The NBA said it would appeal Friday's ruling.

All four players were waived this season and claimed by other teams. They will become free agents July 1.

In addition, future players claimed off waivers will likewise benefit from Friday's ruling.

The ruling is especially huge for the Knicks. They can now retain Lin, Novak and Landry Fields at up to $5 million each and then sign an additional player at $3 million or less with their mid-level exception. The Knicks will likely be in the market for a seasoned veteran point guard. The ruling is one step toward creating enough space to go after a player such as Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Andre Miller or Raymond Felton.

The Knicks could also retain J.R. Smith if he accepts his player option of around $2.5 million. He has until June 26 to decide if he wants to opt in or out. He can opt out of his player option and then re-sign at 120 percent of his previous year's salary using a non-Bird exception.

Beyond that, the Knicks will only have veteran's minimum contracts of $1.4 million to spend to fill out the rest of their roster.

[Phoenix Dark]

THANK YOU

[TakingBackSunday]

Nash in NY 

[DCharlieJP]

THANK YOU

man i don't pop in here often but that video is brilliant - this sort of horseshit goes down in a whole manner of sports and it IS the same sort of shite the whole time : "they wanted it more" "he didn't have the heart for it" "he lost his stomach" etc etc. Good to see someone absolutely shat all over this sort of nonsense.

I have no idea what Skip's credentials are but in other sports you get a lack of understanding about certain aspects of the game as to -why- , say, Beckham didn't just score everytime he got the ball from 40 yards.

[CajoleJuice]

Awesome stuff from Cuban.

[Smooth Groove]

Cormacaroni is really Mark Cuban? 

[Phoenix Dark]

Cuban utterly destroyed him. No Skip, LeBron didn't stand on the perimeter against Dallas because he "didn't want it bad enough." He did that because the Heat's offense was quite iso based at the time (like OKC's this year), but more importantly because Dallas ran an impressive zone defense and had Tyson Chandler in the paint.

But that's not an interesting sound byte, nor does it get you trending on twitter.

[etiolate]

"Why do you play a zone Skip?"

[Phoenix Dark]

Put that on a t-shirt and I'll buy it

[Joe Molotov]

Skip Bayless been getting shat on left and right the past few weeks.

[Cormacaroni]

heh, Cuban

I don't really have any awareness about Bayless other than the odd clip that Stoney or someone will post here for the lulz, but it does seem like he plays off and feeds the popular perceptions of LeBron to a shocking degree, beyond what any professional observer of an actual game could justify.

There has been some brilliant writing about the finals over the last 24hrs, and a lot of absolute bilge along the lines of 'LeBron finally won because he BECAME A BETTER PERSON, LIKE WE TOLD HIM or because HE FINALLY STOPPED BEING LAZY AND PLAYED PROPERLY, LIKE WE TOLD HIM

People really seem to need to validate this win, by a person they have never met and have zero influence over, by convincing themselves retroactively that they played some part in it. Whereas in reality of course, it was a gradual process of improvement over 29 years that got LeBron to the point that he could lead a good (not amazing) team to a championship.

[Phoenix Dark]

Skip Bayless been getting shat on left and right the past few weeks.

I can't wait until Sanchez goes down with an injury and Tebow comes in/gets destroyed. NY media doesn't fuck around, should be glorious

Skip is gonna have a bad 2012 

[Stoney Mason]

heh, Cuban

I don't really have any awareness about Bayless other than the odd clip that Stoney or someone will post here for the lulz, but it does seem like he plays off and feeds the popular perceptions of LeBron to a shocking degree, beyond what any professional observer of an actual game could justify.

There has been some brilliant writing about the finals over the last 24hrs, and a lot of absolute bilge along the lines of 'LeBron finally won because he BECAME A BETTER PERSON, LIKE WE TOLD HIM or because HE FINALLY STOPPED BEING LAZY AND PLAYED PROPERLY, LIKE WE TOLD HIM

People really seem to need to validate this win, by a person they have never met and have zero influence over, by convincing themselves retroactively that they played some part in it. Whereas in reality of course, it was a gradual process of improvement over 29 years that got LeBron to the point that he could lead a good (not amazing) team to a championship.

Cuban nails it in that Bayless is just a symptom of our shitty culture and the over simplified way things are presented and discussed for discourse. He's like Bill O'Reilly. Half Show and Half Stupid. I wasn't aware of Bayless until about 5 years ago when my father had a stroke and I had to take care of him for about 6 months. I suddenly was up and home at a time I'm normally not and started watching TV early in the morning that I never did before. So I came across a show called Cold Pizza where he held court and pontificated and said the stupidest shit I'd ever heard on a daily basis. 5 years later he's bigger than ever and still saying the dumbest shit ever.

I very rarely bring him up in threads anymore because I turned over a new leaf in that I feel the dumbest 30% shouldn't drive conversation for the other 70%.

[Cormacaroni]

That's the problem with entertainment aimed at the lowest common denominator, which sports undeniably is. You get a lot of really, intensely, devotedly stupid people commenting on it.

What bugs me about Bayless in that clip is how ANGRY and dogmatic his tone is. He's just trying to force an emotional rather than a rational response from Cuban (who he knows is capable of going off and boosting his ratings). Good job on Cuban for exposing his basic ignorance of what actually happens on the court though. Everyone can recognize when athletes are playing hard on defense, but not so many can tell when they are playing sophisticated defense like the Mavs did last year.

I had a great back-and-forth with a buddy last night about Westbrook / Durant. I think I ended up convincing him that Durant is the one who needs to pass more, not Westbrook, but maybe not (LeBron had more assists in game 5 than Durant had during the whole series, I think - THAT is the weakness he can shore up fastest, 'cause he is already demonstrating decent skill there).

(In the same conversation, he also gave me the best straight line i've had in YEARS...I mentioned that my wife was playing piano. He (a black dude) told me to ask her if she knew 'ni@@az in Paris'. I told him she said 'no, but I know ni@@az in Tokyo')

[Phoenix Dark]

That's the problem with entertainment aimed at the lowest common denominator, which sports undeniably is. You get a lot of really, intensely, devotedly stupid people commenting on it.

What bugs me about Bayless in that clip is how ANGRY and dogmatic his tone is. He's just trying to force an emotional rather than a rational response from Cuban (who he knows is capable of going off and boosting his ratings). Good job on Cuban for exposing his basic ignorance of what actually happens on the court though. Everyone can recognize when athletes are playing hard on defense, but not so many can tell when they are playing sophisticated defense like the Mavs did last year.

I had a great back-and-forth with a buddy last night about Westbrook / Durant. I think I ended up convincing him that Durant is the one who needs to pass more, not Westbrook, but maybe not (LeBron had more assists in game 5 than Durant had during the whole series, I think - THAT is the weakness he can shore up fastest, 'cause he is already demonstrating decent skill there).

(In the same conversation, he also gave me the best straight line i've had in YEARS...I mentioned that my wife was playing piano. He (a black dude) told me to ask her if she knew 'ni@@az in Paris'. I told him she said 'no, but I know ni@@az in Tokyo')

Hold on, what type of person responds to news of another person's piano prowess by asking if they can play a rap song. I love hip hop but that's like asking a chef if she can make grilled cheese sandwiches

[CajoleJuice]

Skip Bayless been getting shat on left and right the past few weeks.

I can't wait until Sanchez goes down with an injury and Tebow comes in/gets destroyed. NY media doesn't fuck around, should be glorious

Skip is gonna have a bad 2012 

[Phoenix Dark]

 

[etiolate]

It should be added that Stephen A Smith remaining quiet through that whole thing is the smartest moment in Stephen A Smith's broadcast career.

[Cormacaroni]

 

(Image removed from quote.)

nunion rings

[Dickie Dee]

THANK YOU

cuban just wanted it more than skip

wizprince 21 minutes ago 67

[pilonv1]

ALL HAIL BASED LEBATARD

loved him calling out Simmons.

I'm loving the media being called out. Great stuff.

Skip was just fucking lost against Cuban. Great stuff.

[Mandark]

Hold on, what type of person responds to news of another person's piano prowess by asking if they can play a rap song.

[benjipwns]

I have no idea what Skip's credentials are

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/jalen-rose-calls-skip-bayless-air-trumped-high-214530179.html

[CajoleJuice]

It should be added that Stephen A Smith remaining quiet through that whole thing is the smartest moment in Stephen A Smith's broadcast career.

This is probably the smartest moment in your internet forum career.

[benjipwns]

Cuban also argued with Stephen A. Smith in the same segment (around 26 minutes) where Smith pulled the Odom card and then tried to argue ESPN analysts need 24/7 access to players and coaches in order to know how teams win because it's impossible to watch and understand games or something or other:

[etiolate]

Lebron's "suffering" wtf

The idea of players wanting it more is part of the American fantasy that the everyone who succeeds simply wanted it more, deserved it more, worked harder, etc., and there were not random or external factors.

As for not knowing the X&O side of things, I don't think you need special access. If you aren't hiring people to break down plays then that's more a statement on what your company values. Unless SAS really thinks fans need him to tell them who won and loss when they have a boxscore in front of their face.

[Cormacaroni]

There is also the flipside of that American fantasy - that everyone who fails does so because of some external conspiracy, never that it was their own failing

[Cormacaroni]

Liked this - the simplest statistical reason why the Heat won was that they hit their 3s thanks to nice assisting from LeBron, and the Thunder didn't.

http://www.spreadsheet-sports.com/why-the-miami-heat-nba-champions/

[Mandark]

I'd love for ESPN (or NBC Sports, or Comcast, or anyone) to have a show similar to NFL Matchup, where Ron Jaworski gets to break down film in depth.  Even that is aired at 3AM, though (and rerun at 7:30AM, but still).

So, how many years can the Thunder go without a title before people start turning on Durant?  Right now he's young enough that he's still in the honeymoon phase, and Westbrook attracts all the criticism.  But say three years from now they lose one more finals and two WCF's.  At that point people are gonna start complaining that Durant's a ball hog who doesn't make his teammates better, doesn't play defense, puts up big stats without winning, doesn't have a post game, relies on the refs, is soft, and can't lead his team to a championship.

Anyways, the Heat winning was obviously orchestrated by David Stern to divert attention away from the Wizards-Horents trade.  Cause WAT

[Phoenix Dark]

Durant seems dedicated enough to realize he needs to put in some work. His offense game is solid, it's time to get some muscle and work on the defensive side of the ball. And given how many shooters he's surrounded by, it wouldn't be hard to put up some decent assist numbers if he wanted to.

I could see him being labeled soft, but I don't see people "turning" on him unless he starts demanding trades and not playing hard. Nothing he's done thus far suggests he'd do that though.

Plus I bet his mom is gonna tell him to go to the gym and he'll listen lol

[Mandark]

The point isn't that those criticisms will necessarily be valid, but that when a star player doesn't win a championship after several years in the NBA, people start trying to find faults in his game and character in order to explain it.  Every player has relative strengths and weaknesses, but fans and pundits will focus way more on the negatives if there's no championship backing it up.  Look at Dirk: he improved, changed his game, remained loyal to his team, and wasn't given any benefit of the doubt until he finally got a ring.

[Phoenix Dark]

(I still can't stand Dirk)

Ah I see. Dirk suffered from a host of bad playoff performances when it counted, which led to the valid creation of a narrative. Durant played very well in the playoffs and finals and is too talented not to continue. I think think he'll face some criticisms, mainly in terms of softness, but I'd also argue him being a no-controversy hard working dude will save him from being put to the fire as much as say...Tracey McGrady, Dwight Howard, etc.

Another reason you're right: now that LeBron has his ring, it's more likely he'll become a standard for ring-less stars like Durant and Rose to be compared to - as opposed to the previous "why doesn't LeBron have as much heart as Rose/Durant" hand wringing. If Durant continues to just score 30 points a game and not much else, he'll be marginalized. I got the impression a lot of the sports media personality types were craving to crown Durant during the playoffs, use him to attack LeBron, etc; perhaps it was just the formation of a "hero v villain" narrative. Now LeBron will be the measuring stick for Durant's progression.

[Mandark]

Yep, and the catch-22 for ringless stars is that every non-title accomplishment gets twisted into evidence of their shortcomings.  After all, if a guy can win multiple scoring titles and individual awards, doesn't that mean his flaws must be that much deeper in order to prevent him from winning?

I do hope the Thunder get one soon, though, and that Westbrook goes for like 40-10-15 in the clinching game.

[Phoenix Dark]

It would be amazing if Durant disappeared from the face of the earth all summer, no one knew where he was...then he shows up to training camp in perfect shape, 30 pounds heavier with Harden's beard, 3% body fat, and a written note declaring he has taken a vow of silence until he wins an NBA championship.

[pilonv1]

It's amazing but I think that LeBatard rant turned me on the Heat.

Cuban also argued with Stephen A. Smith in the same segment (around 26 minutes) where Smith pulled the Odom card and then tried to argue ESPN analysts need 24/7 access to players and coaches in order to know how teams win because it's impossible to watch and understand games or something or other:

The problem is ESPN hired a bunch of idiots (including former players) who have no idea how to dissect a game and/or express without a bunch of lame cliches and generalities. "Player X must player harder, he hasn't been aggressive and I don't know if he has the desire to win a ring." Or they talk those stupid made up stats like "Jeremy Lin was the only player to record 8 turnovers, 27 points, 9 asissts and 2 rebounds since Michael Jordan in 1989" like it means anything.

I can't watch anything on that channel anymore outside of PTI, which I only watch because I like the interaction between Kornhesier and Wilbon since their analysis is 4th grade stuff compared to the 3rd grade stuff elsewhere on the network. There's a few guys who aren't complete morons like Andy Katz, and Jay Bilas can be good if he's not trying to be the centre of attention while calling games.

Liked this - the simplest statistical reason why the Heat won was that they hit their 3s thanks to nice assisting from LeBron, and the Thunder didn't.

http://www.spreadsheet-sports.com/why-the-miami-heat-nba-champions/

That's the big difference I think this year from last year. I don't necessarily think LeBron last year was always passing to guys who would get a good shot, but just passing out because he didn't have a shot. Which is another sign of how good Dallas' changing defense was as Cuban mentioned. Some of it was Miller & Battier got hot in the finals but most people would knock down those open shots.

It would be amazing if Durant disappeared from the face of the earth all summer, no one knew where he was...then he shows up to training camp in perfect shape, 30 pounds heavier with Harden's beard, 3% body fat, and a written note declaring he has taken a vow of silence until he wins an NBA championship.

Ultimately I think Durant ends up with more rings than LeBron. But only if they get a real coach (hi Phil!) or move Westbrook. Can you imagine a true point guard like Chris Paul playing with Durant and being able to get him open regularly? It's a scary though, he could average 35+ with ease with some smarter team mates and a decent professional coach.

I also wonder how many seasons LeBron's body will hold up with such a reckless style, and once he loses his athleticism he's going to have to adapt his game. And for someone who won a title shooting 24% from outside 3ft that could be difficult.

[benjipwns]

The problem is ESPN hired a bunch of idiots (including former players) who have no idea how to dissect a game and/or express without a bunch of lame cliches and generalities. "Player X must player harder, he hasn't been aggressive and I don't know if he has the desire to win a ring." Or they talk those stupid made up stats like "Jeremy Lin was the only player to record 8 turnovers, 27 points, 9 asissts and 2 rebounds since Michael Jordan in 1989" like it means anything.

It's an institutional rot common across most media. Look at at how politics is covered, it's really the same stuff, "how did this speech that's forgotten in 24 hours change the entire game?!?!?!?" Or science. Or videah games. Or well, anything.

There's not a market for what Cuban wants on mass cable, sports radio or in what the sportswriters produce. If you want that, you've already been reading it on the internet. Any of the stats guys, TrueHoop, Coach Nick, etc. And as Smith implied you can't really do any sort of analysis in a one or two minute shout off.

The guys who actually still do the gum shoe reporting, even if their analysis is terrible like Ric Bucher or Marc Stein get more leeway because they at least do the former. Even if by "gum shoe reporting" it's someone in a front office they know sending them a text.

[pilonv1]

There's not a market for what Cuban wants on mass cable, sports radio or in what the sportswriters produce.

The sad thing is, what Cuban was saying wasn't even that in depth, and it's something that any basketball fan would notice. More proof that ESPN isn't for people who like sports. It's for people who want to sound like they know sports. Simmons is the poster child for that generation.

The guys who actually still do the gum shoe reporting, even if their analysis is terrible like Ric Bucher or Marc Stein get more leeway because they at least do the former. Even if by "gum shoe reporting" it's someone in a front office they know sending them a text.

Bucher is a bit of an idiot at times (would take Worstbrook over Durant). But even as you said if they're doing as little as reading a text they're infinitely more qualified than the Skips or SAS's of the world.

There's so many better people covering the league like Ken Berger that it's easier than ever to completely put ESPN out of your media rotation.

[benjipwns]

Yeah, there are good reporters out there, mostly local because that's their beat. One good thing about the internet explosion and hoopshype, etc. is this aggregation of them.

Bucher is terrible for writing, his whole sources deal about how he never disagrees with them and arguing with people in chats about his sources say Rose is the best player in the league and he trusts them, blah blah blah. But he does solid reporting on trades and stuff.

The problem is ESPN is blending all this shit together because the opinion shouting is what drives a lot of it. So rather than utilize people in a capacity they may be good at they're all shoutfesters. TNT lets Charles and Kenny talk about the game, and for fun has them commentate and stuff, but their primary role is to talk about the game from their perspective. Craig Sager and co. do the "standard" journalism stuff. TNT even lets Charles and Kenny go on at length about things, even if Jalen Rose or Tim Legler has something worthwhile to say, they're getting thirty seconds before we jump to the next guy.

Cuban gets to what I've impotently whined about for a long time. The manufactured narrative that modern media has to force onto all events on earth to justify THEIR existence, since they are the only ones qualified to tell you what the "proper narrative" is.

And I still don't get why Michael Wilbon has any career at all. At least Tony Kornheiser has his unserious schtick. (And writes well.)