Author Topic: The NBA thread  (Read 1519489 times)

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benjipwns

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I almost think this segment with Cuban justifies his entire career retrospectively.

Stoney Mason

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It's not that I don't think non-serious sports talk has any place. It's always going to be the driving force behind sports talk because the average fan of any sport doesn't have the understanding or interest to understand the complexities of any sport. Same goes with regular news. It's that nobody until fairly recently has been around to call these guys out when they blatantly say insane and stupid shit. There is no real sort of daily show or colbert report of sports news to point out how absurd it all is although the serious analytical sports guys are starting to do that on their own which is nice. 

benjipwns

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One aspect to that may be the relatively recent development of the explosion of sports media. ESPN didn't really take off and become a monster until the 1990's. You had a long ingrained system where you had some guy trained in broadcasting plus either an old coach or player. And you maybe got a few comments before, at half-time and at the end of the game.

Now it's 24/7. The internet has so many people writing so many things. Something like Fire Joe Morgan or Hollinger isn't even unique these days, there are tons of people writing so much coverage on sports. The TrueHoop Network on ESPN probably produces tons more analysis and coverage of the teams than the "official" NBA analysts do.

I think a Daily Show type show for sports media would be pretty funny, I like the Onion parody, but it's hard to beat the real stuff when you do that type of thing. You don't even need it for critiquing their underwhelming "narratives" you could probably fill half a show from "experts" reversing their positions from game to game.

Great Rumbler

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That's why I mainly just like to listen to the local ESPN stuff on the radio, like the Ben and Skin Show and Galloway and Company. Most of the national shows really don't interest me a whole lot [especially The Herd].
dog

benjipwns

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It is interesting (probably not really) that we were basically stuck to local sports for so long and then we kinda centralized for a while, now people are realizing that there is a good chunk that doesn't want to only hear about just the Knicks, Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, and Heat, so the internet and such is letting people get back more to local/team coverage. Replicate for all other sports including college.

I'm remembering an old ESPN ad back for when I think ESPN News or whatever the 24/7 Headline News like channel was just starting. Old guy talking about how he got three minutes for sports while the weather guy got five minutes to tell you it rained today and for ESPN to go fuck themselves.

etiolate

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Well now that the draft is coming, we can get back to all the thick shit the Maloofs have gotten themselves into, dragging a team and a city along with them.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/13/in-depth-stern-fires-shot-across-the-bow-at-the-maloofs-who-continue-to-threaten-the-nbas-billion-dollar-arena-subsidy/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Quote
A meticulous planner, everything David Stern says is run through a filter of lawyerly instinct and an ever-present awareness of his surroundings.

So when David Aldridge asked him if the NBA would support the Maloofs in their desire to move the Sacramento Kings to Anaheim on Tuesday – don’t think for a second that he hadn’t weighed the legal gravity of the situation or the wishes of his 29 other bosses.

“If there was a vote now, there would be no support for a move,” Stern said.

Stern then went on to poke at the Maloofs for their current plan, which includes staying in the nearly dilapidated Power Balance Pavilion for at least one more season, despite the family threatening to leave town for years because the building is dilapidated.

“That’s their prerogative. As long as it (Power Balance) stands and passes the fire code, I think it’s been a terrific place for the fans of Sacramento,” said Stern in his typical dry wit.

This is the most recent play on the NBA’s relocation chess board, and with the Maloofs overtly implying an antitrust lawsuit against the league for well over a year now, it’s a telling one.

+

Quote
In the case of the Maloofs’ attempted move to Anaheim, sources with knowledge of the situation have reported that a relocation fee would be upwards of $300 million.

=

Quote
It has been theorized that this relocation fee was communicated at some point to the Maloofs, who expected to leverage (or take) Anaheim’s offer despite being near the finish line with Sacramento. In that theory, once the Maloofs realized a move to Anaheim was not in the cards they decided to officially muck up a Sacramento deal that reflected their meager contributions, while testing their leverage with antitrust threats.

Regardless of the Maloofs’ intentions, cities that negotiate with the NBA and team owners over arena subsidies will now point to the family’s apparent bad faith dealings. Now, the league will have to explain to its civic partners how and why they should expend political capital and public funds if owners are going to use the scorched earth strategy when they don’t get what they want.

Sacramento spent significant sums of money and staff time in the arena negotiations process during a budgetary crisis only to find they were spinning their wheels – all while offering to pay for 65 percent of the arena’s costs – and the NBA is going to have to wear that issue unless they make it right by keeping a team there under a workable plan.

It's a long article, but its full of the history of the Maloof dealings and then goes into the Seattle situation, connecting a potential buyer of the team from there. The writer forgets that Burkle is also another potential buyer with big money, but the bottom line might be who is willing to overpay for the team so the Maloofs will give it up and get out of debt.

I really don't know what the Maloof endgame is at this point. Last draft, they traded picks in an effort to pay less for Jimmer, and drafted Jimmer with the hope of his status increasing their revenue. It was a poor basketball trade, but a possibly successful marketing move. Being that they're even more desperate now, I'm worried as to what hijinx they'll push through this draft.

Rman

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I don't get the Skip Bayless pile on.  He's an entertainer, not a journalist.  His show is not where you go for in depth analysis and it's been like for 8 years since the Cold Pizza days. 

I find FT entertaining and if I want great analysis I watch the stuff on NBA.tv, or the dedicated hoops shows on ESPN.  But this is a sport talk show, and sports radio, which is the influence of this show, has always been about exaggeration, narratives, and pomp. 

Stoney Mason

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To each his own but I don't find a guy talking horseshit to be entertaining whatever the venue is. Especially when those narratives crossover to the regular news reporting. Not to mention they are the ones who invited Cuban on. And then Cuban proceeds to destroy him. Bayless defense wasn't that it's all horeshit and he's an entertainer. It was that he knows what he's talking about. Which Cuban then proceeded to show that he doesn't. So if he wants to play the card of he's just talking shit. Then don't bring on someone who is going to call him on it. Which has now happened a few times over the last months. Just like you find him entertaining, I found someone calling him full of shit very entertaining.

Phoenix Dark

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Skip considers himself a sports journalist though, whatever that means. He's certainly entertaining but is more often than not infuriating. You can tell he tries to appeal to specific groups of people, and therefore makes arguments so ridiculous you have you believe he doesn't truly believe them himself. Like the Tebow shit: to me, that's him parroting bullshit for attention. He knows there's a huge pro-Tebow camp, just as there is a huge anti-LeBron camp.

Ultimately it comes down to exposure and twitter trends.
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etiolate

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The issue is that ESPN guys try to pass off their entertainment as serious talk. The TNT crew doesn't do a lot of breakdowns either. (Yes, I know sometimes Kenny Smith will.) The difference is that the TNT crew knows its there for entertainment. The atmosphere is laid back and they'll wander off into something just for laughs.

ESPN is full of guys like Jon Barry, who sit there straight faced and earnest before the camera, saying nothing of insight. They just all push the narrative. Maybe its for reaction, but its not all that entertaining in the package they present it in.

Cormacaroni

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Well, at the end of the day, it is just sports. It's not foreign policy or the war on drugs these guys are 'debating'. It doesn't really matter unless you happen to be one of the people they are so casually defaming, which of course I am not and never will be.

On the other hand, I don't find it in the least enjoyable. It's staged and fake. I can't stand wrestling for the same reason, even though I'm fairly keen on combat sports/martial arts. Give me a REAL fight and I might be interested, not this scripted button-pushing nonsense. Their dialog is the equivalent of watching bantamweights swing sunday punch haymaker after sunday punch haymaker, except nothing ever lands or ends the fight. And of course the personalities chosen for this stuff are practically genetically-bred for obnoxiousness.

This Cuban thing is the sports equivalent of Jon Stewart's appearance on Crossfire, I guess. He was invited on, and proceeded to destroy not just the hosts' arguments, but also the entire raison d'etre for the show. Ironically, Stewart pulled the 'I'm only a comedian, I don't know what the hell i'm talking about' Court Jester card afterward, like Bayless is doing now...

No game today :(
vjj

Cormacaroni

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If I had to bet, I'd say Deron Williams opts for Dallas now. He's saying it's down to either the Mavs or the Nets, but it seems unlikely that he is just trying for leverage here. He knows he's getting a max deal from the Nets if he stays. Combined with the talk about winning now and not wanting to rebuild, it seems fairly clear that Dallas is the way to go. The Mavs have been managed so much better than the Nets in recent years that no-one could say they liked the Nets chances of successfully rebuilding with a straight face. And given how badly they sucked last year, there can be no fantasies about them getting better by resigning Wallace or Brooke Lopez returning from injury.

Of course, that is predicated on him telling the truth, and who does that in job/salary negotiations.
vjj

Phoenix Dark

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Too bad OKC can't just trade Westbrook for Williams  :-*
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Cormacaroni

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oh you
vjj

pilonv1

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Mavs could do a sign + trade to clear up more room too. Nets have the cap room, but I doubt they take Marion or Haywood.
itm

Great Rumbler

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In non-Heat basketball news:

Quote
NBA star Tony Parker may miss the London Olympics after almost losing his eye in a fight involving singer Chris Brown and members of hip-hop star Drake's entourage.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/summer/2012/basketball/story/_/id/8093141/tony-parker-miss-olympics-due-eye-injury
dog

Brehvolution

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Skip's only job now is to annoy Steven A. When Skip talks, Steven is looking up at the sky.
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Mandark

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In non-Heat basketball news:

Quote
NBA star Tony Parker may miss the London Olympics after almost losing his eye in a fight involving singer Chris Brown and members of hip-hop star Drake's entourage.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/summer/2012/basketball/story/_/id/8093141/tony-parker-miss-olympics-due-eye-injury

That whole story seems more like a product of Mad Libs than a real event.

Phoenix Dark

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In non-Heat basketball news:

Quote
NBA star Tony Parker may miss the London Olympics after almost losing his eye in a fight involving singer Chris Brown and members of hip-hop star Drake's entourage.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/summer/2012/basketball/story/_/id/8093141/tony-parker-miss-olympics-due-eye-injury

I've never had respect for Drake, but it's now in negative territory. SMH @ throwing bottles then hiding in the bathroom while your bodyguards protect you
010

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread (July1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6679 on: June 25, 2012, 09:43:03 PM »
Heat fan 4 life

Let's go, Heat!



Joe Molotov

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Re: The NBA thread (July1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6680 on: June 25, 2012, 10:01:23 PM »
Were they having a sale at Bandwagons R' Us?  ::)

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j/k  ;)
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (July1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6681 on: June 25, 2012, 10:40:08 PM »
Heat fan 4 life

Let's go, Heat!


(Image removed from quote.)

Wearing jerseys in 2012 isn't kosher breh, unless you're going to a game. Maybe, just maybe, if you're going to a sports bar
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Phoenix Dark

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etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6683 on: June 26, 2012, 08:09:27 PM »
edit: NM Answered it myself

Quote
@chadfordinsider Bobcats send Corey Maggette to Pistons for Ben Gordon and a 2013 protected first-rounder.

Congrats PD  :lol
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:20:12 PM by etiolate »

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6684 on: June 26, 2012, 08:31:27 PM »
Bobcats taking on a ridiculously bad contract there, so much for new sensible management.
vjj

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6685 on: June 26, 2012, 08:34:38 PM »
I think Gordon's contract is only one year longer than Maggette's?

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6686 on: June 26, 2012, 09:35:22 PM »
another 2 years, 26 million for a one-dimensional undersized shooter that's basically toast? On a team that has the tiniest back court in the league (or one of...)? :yuck
vjj

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6687 on: June 26, 2012, 09:42:23 PM »
They get a free draft pick from Detroit. Maggette is a cancer. Good trade for the Cats.
itm

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6688 on: June 26, 2012, 11:35:17 PM »
Well, Bobcats have barely any committed salary for the '13-14 season, and they'll have to get up to the minimum, which will be ~$50 million.  They don't need to save that room to re-sign their upcoming free agents, who suck.  So the best plan probably involves taking on bad contracts from other teams looking to free up cap space/avoid the luxury tax, and getting paid in draft picks and lower tier prospects.  They can probably afford a few of those deals while still keeping cap space for the 2013 offseason in case there's a free agent they want to target.

All that said, $14 million is a really steep price for a draft pick, and will look worse if the Pistons become a marginal playoff team in a couple years and leave the Bobcats with a pick in the teens.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6689 on: June 26, 2012, 11:45:22 PM »
It's a protected pick too, so yeah :yuck
vjj

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6690 on: June 26, 2012, 11:52:02 PM »
But your boyfriend Hollinger likes it, for the same reasons I suggested on GAF, they're not near the salary floor and no one would sign there anyway :smug

Quote
Let me make this real simple for you: The Bobcats just purchased a first-round draft pick with money they had to spend anyway.

The headlines will say that Ben Gordon was traded for Corey Maggette, but pay no mind; they're just contracts in this deal. They're not bad players necessarily, but they're roughly equivalent talents with oversized contracts on teams going nowhere.

The real action is comes through the draft pick and the money changing hands. Charlotte now has a potential lottery pick in 2014 or 2015, and the cost is the difference in salary (about $14 million). Normally that would be an excessive price to pay, but these aren't normal times. The Bobcats may not hit the league's salary floor in 2013-14, let alone the cap, so the $13.2 million that Gordon adds to their payroll in that season doesn't stand to hurt them much since they needed to add a bunch of salary anyway. In that sense, they really paid far less than $14 million for the draft pick.

From Detroit's perspective, this deal was a no-brainer. The Pistons dump $13.2 million from their 2013-14 payroll, since Maggette's contract expires in 2012-13, retain their amnesty clause to use on Charlie Villanueva (instead of maybe Gordon), and now stand to be as much as $20 million under the cap that summer, depending on what moves they make between now and then.

itm

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6691 on: June 26, 2012, 11:56:39 PM »
Are you suggesting that I read GAF :yuck

OK, that's a fair point about them needing to reach the league minimum. Hard to believe there isn't better talent than Ben Gordon they could be trading for though.
vjj

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6692 on: June 27, 2012, 12:01:04 AM »
No, suggesting that I wrote it elsewhere before Hollinger so I sound smarter. It was the same reason I didn't care about how much the Warriors paid Kwame.

Quote
Hard to believe there isn't better talent than Ben Gordon they could be trading for though.

Probably, but not one that would give them what could be an unprotected draft pick in 4 years. And I'd argue that getting anything for sending Maggette out is a win
itm

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6693 on: June 27, 2012, 12:22:45 AM »
edit: NM Answered it myself

Quote
@chadfordinsider Bobcats send Corey Maggette to Pistons for Ben Gordon and a 2013 protected first-rounder.

Congrats PD  :lol

Why does Joe Dumars have a job?
010

Human Snorenado

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6694 on: June 27, 2012, 12:27:18 AM »
So, the Hawks gave Danny Ferry the reins of the team.  I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop, like maybe he'll be found with a bunch of dead Guatemalan rent boys in his hotel room tomorrow or something.
yar

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6695 on: June 27, 2012, 02:57:57 AM »
Calipari says Rose is preparing like crazy and is more motivated than ever


cheating mother fucker


010

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6696 on: June 27, 2012, 03:22:23 AM »
Hollinger's take on that trade is pretty interesting and shows yet again how utterly insane the cap/CBA is - the actual on-court production of the players involved, despite being paid a collective $40 million or so for the remainder of their contracts, is basically irrelevant...it's all about moving around cash and picks and cap space and minimum salary. Please remind me to never ever judge a trade based on the headline players involved again :lol
vjj

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6697 on: June 27, 2012, 03:22:44 AM »
MKG is not dropping past the top 5. The Kings aren't stupid enough to let him get past them. He's a near-perfect fit for the team. The only reason he's not going #2 is because all the top four teams need scoring and MKG is raw and very awkward with the ball. I'd still take him over Robinson even if my team lacked offense.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 04:21:08 AM by etiolate »

Stoney Mason

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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6699 on: June 28, 2012, 01:45:00 AM »
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benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6700 on: June 28, 2012, 11:52:59 AM »
Adrian Wojnarowski:
Quote
Spurs are shopping forward DeJuan Blair, league sources tell Y! Spurs have Euro picks they could bring over next season, need roster space.

Boston is aggressively working to move up into the late lottery, if not higher, league sources tell Y!. Celtics own No. 21 and 22 picks

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6701 on: June 28, 2012, 12:44:31 PM »
Hoping the Bobcats can swing the trade with Cleveland down to 4, pick up the 24 and and still get MKG.

edit:  lmao if Boston trades up for Austin Rivers. 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 12:47:49 PM by DJ_Tet »
TIT

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6702 on: June 28, 2012, 12:44:45 PM »
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Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6703 on: June 28, 2012, 12:58:04 PM »
Talk of Washington drafting Beal because they need a 2 guard and outside shooting.

Now I don't watch college ball, so I don't have an informed opinion on Beal (apparently the highest rated shooting guard with a reputation as a dead-eye shooter, but who didn't do great on 3-pointers in his one college year).  But I hate the idea of the Wizards drafting by need rather than talent, after having the 3rd worst record in the league.

They don't need shooters, they need players.  When the team gets decent then you can start worrying about how the pieces fit.  For God's sake don't pass up on a top prospect because hey, we've already got Trevor Ariza at that spot.

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6704 on: June 28, 2012, 01:15:38 PM »
As for the Bobcats trade I loved it so of course Cormac hated it  :lol

First off, Bobcats have cap space to burn cause no big time FA is going to sign here in the near future.  Second, Gordons contract comes off the same time as Matt Carroll and Diop, so we'll have a huge chunk in 2 years.

edit-  actually this is the last year for Carroll and Diop, but only one more year for Gordon who becomes valuable as an expiring contract

As for players, he's younger than Maggette and as a combo guard may be able to teach Kemba a few tricks.  Plus he's a good 3rd guard to pair with Henderson, although yes it's a tiny backcourt.  Maggette played less than half the games for us last year, and while I loved his effort, he was expendable especially if he brings us another 1st round pick.  Expecting Gordon to go back to his Bulls days may be a stretch but he should get all the shots he wants on our second team, so it's not unreasonable to think he might lead the team in scoring off the bench.

As for the pick, it's lottery protected this year which is fine by me.  The Pistons could sneak into the playoffs I suppose, and if Portland barely misses the playoffs and Charlotte is terrible again they will end up with 3 top 15-16 picks next year, two in the top 10.  If the Pistons do not make the playoffs, it's top 8 protected the year after, and top 3 protected the year after that, and top 1 and then unprotected.

I'm hoping the Pistons miss the playoffs obviously and we can delay that pick till it's a little higher.

Essentially we turned an aging Stephen Jackson into Ben Gordon, Bismack Biyombo and whatever that pick turns into.  I'm pretty good with that.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 01:18:47 PM by DJ_Tet »
TIT

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6705 on: June 28, 2012, 01:40:20 PM »
Ken Berger ‏@KBergCBS
Ron Johnson, the NBA's senior VP of referee operations, has resigned effective at the end of July, the league announced.

Johnson said David Stern asked him to improve "an already superior officiating program. ... I feel I have accomplished that mission."

Stern, in a statement, said Johnson fostered "a culture of compliance and discipline. We deeply appreciate Ron’s contributions."

Stoney Mason

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etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6707 on: June 28, 2012, 04:09:53 PM »
Ken Berger ‏@KBergCBS
Ron Johnson, the NBA's senior VP of referee operations, has resigned effective at the end of July, the league announced.

Johnson said David Stern asked him to improve "an already superior officiating program. ... I feel I have accomplished that mission."

Stern, in a statement, said Johnson fostered "a culture of compliance and discipline. We deeply appreciate Ron’s contributions."

 :lol

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6708 on: June 28, 2012, 06:51:56 PM »


bahah
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benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6709 on: June 28, 2012, 07:30:39 PM »
Apparently Jared Sullinger has bulging dicks.

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6710 on: June 28, 2012, 07:30:46 PM »
MKG coming to Oakland!

please :-\
itm

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6711 on: June 28, 2012, 07:36:30 PM »

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6712 on: June 28, 2012, 08:04:46 PM »
 :poop Cavs :poop
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pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6713 on: June 28, 2012, 08:15:24 PM »
:heart Harrison Barnes :heart
itm

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6714 on: June 28, 2012, 08:17:02 PM »
As for the Bobcats trade I loved it so of course Cormac hated it  :lol


I don't hate it now that wiser folks have explained the actual rationale. I was just reacting to the initial ESPN headline of 'Maggette for Gordon' - the deal isn't really about those guys at all. As a straight basketball trade between two teams that were actually playing for wins next season, I'd hate it for the team that got Gordon due to the extra year and money. Neither player is worth their contract at this point, but Gordon has more left on his.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6715 on: June 28, 2012, 08:20:53 PM »
...and I agree with everything you said. I don't follow the Cats like you do so a lot of the cap stuff was new to me, cheers
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6716 on: June 28, 2012, 08:22:21 PM »
I like the Irving - Waiters backcourt combo for Cleveland, lots o' penetration there
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6717 on: June 28, 2012, 08:24:05 PM »
Pistons take nuDarko!

I'd take him at 9 too though, why not. If nothing else, he's a cheap 6 fouls. A big body is exactly what they need too. Not sure the Pistons is the best learning environment though.
vjj

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6718 on: June 28, 2012, 08:26:38 PM »
Drummond-Monroe-Maggette

Monster front court! Look out Knicks!

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (July 1st. Free Agency begins)
« Reply #6719 on: June 28, 2012, 08:30:52 PM »
in theory, Drummond is a great fit with Monroe due to all dat UPSIDE! POTENTIAL!
vjj