Author Topic: The NBA thread  (Read 1519486 times)

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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8220 on: February 11, 2013, 11:34:19 PM »
Maurice, just youtube some of the highlights of Lebron in the playoffs last year.  He dominated almost every single game he played.

I know, I did watch last year. I'm just saying I'd need to see more of...that in the next couple years.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8221 on: February 12, 2013, 12:03:46 AM »
I don't think LeBron has to take any additional steps to become the greatest; I just think he needs to continue the current dominance. It's totally possible that he won't do so, but there isn't any real reason you can point to right now to doubt that he will. I mean, he could leave for LA in 2014 and maybe miss out on any more rings as a worst-case scenario, but he'd still continue to dominate statistically as long as he remains healthy. Now that he has won a championship, the average dude is much more likely to cut him slack for not winning rings if say, Wade gets hurt or falls off a cliff or whatever.
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8222 on: February 12, 2013, 12:17:58 AM »
like, dude, he has to win three more to be even be in the same CONVERSATION as kobe
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Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8223 on: February 12, 2013, 12:20:30 AM »
We're at the interesting bit of LeBron's career, where everyone can see the utter terrorism he is about to inflict over the next 3-4 years of his projected 'peak'

Most players peak somewhere around 26, at least according to PER (Malone is a major exception). Pretty sure I made a post about it years ago on this forum.
RE: PER and Jordan. He missed two of his near-prime seasons (PER before and after his baseball stint was at 29). In his late 30s (38-40) he had two seasons in which his PER was around 20, eight below his career average. Though, in fairness, LeBron had a PER of 18.3 as a teen rookie.

1.    Wilt Chamberlain*   31.84    1962-63    SFW
2.    Wilt Chamberlain*   31.76    1961-62    PHW
3.    Michael Jordan*   31.71    1987-88    CHI
4.    LeBron James   31.67    2008-09    CLE
5.    Wilt Chamberlain*   31.64    1963-64    SFW
6.    Michael Jordan*   31.63    1990-91    CHI
7.    Michael Jordan*   31.19    1989-90    CHI
8.    Michael Jordan*   31.14    1988-89    CHI
9.    LeBron James   31.11    2009-10    CLE
10.    LeBron James   30.74    2011-12    MIA

How's Kobe even in any conversation for GOAT?

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8224 on: February 12, 2013, 12:22:11 AM »
Five rings, totally not a douchebag
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8225 on: February 12, 2013, 12:37:59 AM »
Flannel Boy -

I thought I addressed their respective PEAK PERs pretty specifically, since those are what differentiate those who belong in the GOAT discussion. No-one cares how many high PER years Karl Malone has; he's never going to be in the transcendent category.

Obviously I'm making some assumptions but I'm not guilty of assuming BETTER performance or an upward trend from here. But we've had a whole season (to date) of LeBron shooting FAR better than ever before. It's no longer a hot streak. He may not get better from here, but he has gotten substantially better in the last year. I think this is what his peak looks like, and if it continues for another 4 full seasons after this? Oh hell yes, it will be a conversation. I'm saying: Get on the bandwagon early! :lol
vjj

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8226 on: February 12, 2013, 01:06:38 AM »
Jordan's best seasons by PER

AGE and PER

24 31.7
27 31.6    
26 31.2    
25 31.1    
23 29.8    
Average 31.1. Note: no age over 27

LeBron's best seasons by PER

AGE and PER
24    31.7    
25    31.1
28    30.9    
27    30.7    
23    29.1    
Average 30.7
edit:
Kobe's best seasons by PER
AGE and PER
27 28.0
24 26.2
28  26.1
22  24.5
30  24.4    
Average 25.8

edit 2
Dirk's best seasons by PER
AGE and PER
27 28.1
28 27.6    
26 26.1
24 25.6    
29 24.6    
Average: 26.4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 01:13:59 AM by Flannel Boy »

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8227 on: February 12, 2013, 01:08:14 AM »

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8228 on: February 12, 2013, 01:08:52 AM »
Jordan's best seasons by PER

AGE and PER
24 31.7
27 31.6    
26 31.2    
25 31.1    
23 29.8    
Average 31.1. Note: no age over 72

As one would expect.

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8229 on: February 12, 2013, 01:19:56 AM »
Much better argument for Kareem if you use Win Shares (completely destroys Kobe's though):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_season.html




Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8230 on: February 12, 2013, 01:23:10 AM »
Flannel Boy -

LeBron is 27 and counting right now and, as I said, has just made a huge stonking improvement vs his career shooting %s, so I think we can forget about it being impossible to get a PER of 31 over that age or whatever point it is you're trying to make. Jordan is literally the only other person who did it so this is the very definition of small sample size.
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8231 on: February 12, 2013, 01:24:09 AM »
Right, Chauncey Billups in 05-06 was a more valuable player than Kobe Bryant in 05-06.  :lol

Yeah, it was the year BEFORE that that he beat Kobe in the Finals
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8232 on: February 12, 2013, 01:34:16 AM »
ok, look - let's see if we can agree on this:

If LeBron is ever to tie or dethrone Jordan in the GOAT stakes, it will likely be because of what is happening on a nightly basis on your TV screens RIGHT NOW and you'd be foolish to miss it because of The Decision or whatever else. Don't be that guy lying to your grandkids that you were there when it happened. Plenty of people wrote off Jordan for years after he was lighting up the league, saying he'll never 'get it' like Larry or Magic and oh how wrong they were

Same goes for Durant obviously - he hasn't done shit in real terms but surely we can discuss his prospects sensibly
vjj

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8233 on: February 12, 2013, 01:48:48 AM »
I don't think anyone here is too curmudgeonly to appreciate LeBron.  Well, except AWESOME-O and PD.

Just saying that if LeBron keeps playing at roughly this level, it'd put him about on par with MJ, rather than putting any significant distance between the two.  Which in itself is still fairly mind-boggling.

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8234 on: February 12, 2013, 01:54:58 AM »
anytime someone's argument on greatness is based solely on rings and clutch ability, he doesn't know shit about basketball

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8235 on: February 12, 2013, 01:57:30 AM »
yep.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
even though LeBron is statistically the most clutch player in the last few seasons :teehee
[close]
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8236 on: February 12, 2013, 01:59:58 AM »
I don't think anyone here is too curmudgeonly to appreciate LeBron.  Well, except AWESOME-O and PD.

Just saying that if LeBron keeps playing at roughly this level, it'd put him about on par with MJ, rather than putting any significant distance between the two.  Which in itself is still fairly mind-boggling.

this is entirely reasonable. I guess it is impossible for him to retire the UNQUESTIONED GOAT, but I'm betting it will be a real long, hard conversation by that point.
vjj

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8237 on: February 12, 2013, 02:07:34 AM »
He probably handles the ball too much but bringing that turnover rate below ten is one way he could start to really solidify his case statistically. Kobe was never really able to do it. McGrady's the only guy of recent vintage to flash that kind of scary possibility.

I've never got the impression that LeBron will ever have that complete singular obsession that Jordan and Kobe do, but he seems fine with that. Similar to another name (and demigod like physical specimen) up there in Wilt.

As mentioned, Durant at least gives him a legitimate rival to go against. Unlike Jordan and Kobe.

Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8238 on: February 12, 2013, 02:13:13 AM »
anytime someone's argument on greatness is based solely on rings and clutch ability, he doesn't know shit about basketball

Very true.

It's a mix of a lot of stuff. The effect someone had on the game. Their stats, their titles, and on and on and on.

Plus history has a way of changing things or hardening opinions. Basically Lebron needs to win more titles before the conversation becomes interesting. And some of it depends on how Durant develops and how he wins and how their rivalry develops.

If Lebron wins 3 titles he will probably go down as a great player but not the greatest. If he wins 4 or 5 titles then it probably becomes a pretty common barbershop discussion/argument although some people will always only look at titles.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8239 on: February 12, 2013, 02:28:39 AM »
YES A HEARTLESS MONSTER

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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8240 on: February 12, 2013, 02:30:09 AM »
not to mention this, from the game I've got on now

http://allball.blogs.nba.com/2013/02/08/lebron-thrills-another-fan/
vjj

Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8241 on: February 12, 2013, 02:37:54 AM »
It's always hard to separate out personal feelings, and stats, and rings, etc.

I was talking to my brother recently who is one of those old school everything was better in the past types on pretty much everything. So he was telling me, he got into an argument with somebody about who was better. Shaq or Hakeem. Now my brother is a bit of a Shaq hater and with his bias against a lot of modern players its no surprise where he stands. I told him I could see somebody going either way. Personally I would go with Hakeem but it would be close still.

Now logically I can look at PER and see that Shaq has the 3rd highest per ever compared to 16 for Olajuawon. And he won 4 titles to the Dream's 2. But there is something strong in my personal memories of just falling in love with the Dream when he won those two titles. He was such a skillful and graceful player that I just fell in love with his game. My brain can logically say that Shaq was the more dominant player. But my heart will always say that Hakeem was the best center I ever saw play. (Not to mention he destroyed the #4 career per player David Robinson when they met up). I think that is what is fun about sports. It's more than just stats.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 02:47:30 AM by Stoney Mason »

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8242 on: February 12, 2013, 02:39:39 AM »
god what a complete douchebag

he needs to man up and just rape someone at this point
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8243 on: February 12, 2013, 02:44:13 AM »
I think Hakeem was better because he was quicker and a better blocker, I think.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8244 on: February 12, 2013, 02:51:17 AM »
Hakeem destroyed Shaq in the Finals too of course. Then again, Shaq was just a baby back then

I'd rather have peak Shaq on my dream team with a gun to my head if i lost the game than Hakeem though, however more aesthetically pleasing the Dream's game was. Then again, everyone's game was prettier than Shaq.
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8245 on: February 12, 2013, 02:53:13 AM »
every at least has a better FT motion than shaq.  even my mom.

I've been watching these the last few nights:

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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8246 on: February 12, 2013, 02:56:13 AM »
its really crazy how in shape hakeem still is in these videos  :lol

Dream had such wide, elegant footwork.  Lebron's looks short and stiff comparatively
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8247 on: February 12, 2013, 03:02:06 AM »
anytime someone's argument on greatness is based solely on rings and clutch ability, he doesn't know shit about basketball

I'd say the same about PER but hey, that's just me. LeBron has one ring, no need to rush to conclusions
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8248 on: February 12, 2013, 03:02:46 AM »
yeah, you sort of think for a minute, that guy could probably still play! Then you remember his last season (in Toronto IIRC) and are :fbm
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8249 on: February 12, 2013, 03:03:38 AM »
anytime someone's argument on greatness is based solely on rings and clutch ability, he doesn't know shit about basketball

I'd say the same about PER but hey, that's just me. LeBron has one ring, no need to rush to conclusions

Yeah I know, and Steve Kerr has 5...
vjj

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8250 on: February 12, 2013, 03:11:57 AM »
Not saying rings are the most important thing, or that PER is; I just find it hard to swallow that argument when LeBron has one ring. The slavish stat obsession reminds me of Peyton Manning arguments a few years ago, just saying.
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Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8251 on: February 12, 2013, 03:12:36 AM »
anytime someone's argument on greatness is based solely on rings and clutch ability, he doesn't know shit about basketball

I'd say the same about PER but hey, that's just me. LeBron has one ring, no need to rush to conclusions

yes that's just you being too lazy again at statistical analysis

you're the Eddy Curry of sports discussion

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8252 on: February 12, 2013, 03:13:22 AM »
Not saying rings are the most important thing, or that PER is; I just find it hard to swallow that argument when LeBron has one ring. The slavish stat obsession reminds me of Peyton Manning arguments a few years ago, just saying.

Peyton has mediocre to garbage stats in the playoffs

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8253 on: February 12, 2013, 03:14:25 AM »
Toni Kukoc has three, also.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8254 on: February 12, 2013, 03:14:56 AM »
Not saying rings are the most important thing, or that PER is; I just find it hard to swallow that argument when LeBron has one ring. The slavish stat obsession reminds me of Peyton Manning arguments a few years ago, just saying.

Slavish stat obsession? Fuck you, I watch like 3 games a day :lol
vjj

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8255 on: February 12, 2013, 03:21:13 AM »
Not saying rings are the most important thing, or that PER is; I just find it hard to swallow that argument when LeBron has one ring. The slavish stat obsession reminds me of Peyton Manning arguments a few years ago, just saying.

Peyton has mediocre to garbage stats in the playoffs

My point. Regular season wise he might be the greatest QB ever, based on his stats/performance. We don't know how LeBron's career will play out; maybe he'll continue to dominate regular seasons but disappear in the playoffs. I'm just saying it's premature to crown his ass based on one imperfect stat.
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Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8256 on: February 12, 2013, 03:22:44 AM »
But Lebron has great playoffs stats

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8257 on: February 12, 2013, 03:33:39 AM »
PD has poor playoff stats
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8258 on: February 12, 2013, 03:35:26 AM »
it won't fucking matter anyway, Peyton will still go down as the probably the best QB in history, SB rings or not (oh btw, he has a SB ring).  One of the reason's why he only has one?  All his playoff teams other than his SB season had atrocious defenses.  Football is truly a team game, where the biggest stars still depend on the people around them.  Basketball is like that as well, but the stars are the ones the make the most happen.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 03:37:26 AM by BrandNew »
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8259 on: February 12, 2013, 03:46:25 AM »
But Lebron has great playoffs stats

True as I said, my point was just that I want to see how things go over the next couple years; things change.

Manning may have had spotty defenses but he fucked the Colts (and Broncos this year) with poor play in big games. Although I do think Fox was largely to blame for this year's fail.
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8260 on: February 12, 2013, 03:52:28 AM »
 ???

Peyton had a decent game against the Ravens.  65 percent completion percentage, 3 touchdowns, and one REAL interception.  The other earlier one was a bad tip by...I think Stokley?  Or Thomas, I forget.

Peyton's playoff stats have always been decent to good.  It's usually his defense that fails him.  Although to be fair to the Broncos D, that game should've ended like three times before double overtime happened.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8261 on: February 12, 2013, 03:59:31 AM »
He looked pretty bad in that fourth quarter. His last few passes looked like his arm was dead. Can't be down about losing to the eventual champs, although Fox did fuck shit up
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8262 on: February 12, 2013, 04:05:39 AM »
If you know anything about Peyton, his passes are 95% of the time pinpoint and exactly where they are supposed to be, unless there's pressure, and in that case Peyton just flops like a dead fish.  I think the pressure combined with some bad coaching and bad routes made Pey Pey look bad.  It's not rare, it happened a lot under Dungy as well.  Dungy was a pretty awful high-pressure coach.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8263 on: February 12, 2013, 04:09:51 AM »
The routes were fine and while the pressure was heavy that doesn't explain him under throwing constantly. He looked very off towards the end. Not denying he's a great QB of course
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Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8264 on: February 12, 2013, 07:52:21 AM »
Manning's post-season QB rating is one point higher than Brady's. It would make sense that their stats would go down in the post-season as they're usually not facing any crappy teams. Plus some of the outdoor games that time of year can be brutal

Montana's already high QB rating, especially for a QB playing in the 80s, went up in the playoffs. GOAT.


Flannel Boy -

LeBron is 27 and counting right now
28! :drake
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 07:56:18 AM by Flannel Boy »

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8265 on: February 12, 2013, 08:28:05 AM »
The problem with Manning is that when he was bad in a playoffs game, he was really bad.  Manning's 1 pt advantage is due to having some spectacular games but I think most teams would take Brady's consistency.

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8266 on: February 12, 2013, 10:27:36 AM »
The problem with Manning is that when he was bad in a playoffs game, he was really bad.  Manning's 1 pt advantage is due to having some spectacular games but I think most teams would take Brady's consistency.

That's not really true.  Brady's got six postseason games over a 110 rating, and five that are sub-70.

Anyway, as always PD's just being a hater like always.  Instead of paying attention to his prematurely old-man grousing, y'all should read Bill Barnwell's reversal of Tom Brady's career if you haven't already.

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8267 on: February 12, 2013, 12:26:27 PM »
Tom Brady is much, much better looking than Manning. QED

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8268 on: February 12, 2013, 12:36:24 PM »
This, naturally, reminds me of the "Dirk finally learned to win" meme.

Season, Age, PER
2008-09 30 28.4
2009-10 31 28.3
2003-04 25 27.5
2005-06 27 26.8 (loser)
2007-08 29 26.3
2010-11 32 25.2 (winner)
2001-02 23 24.8
2002-03 24 23.2
2011-12 33 22.5 .
2000-01 22 22.3
2006-07 28 20.9
2004-05 26 20.1 

Beezy

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8269 on: February 12, 2013, 12:39:55 PM »
I don't understand any of these stats or how they're calculated. PER, player rating, +/-, etc. Someone point me to a site that makes sense of them plz.

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8270 on: February 12, 2013, 12:58:12 PM »
I don't understand any of these stats or how they're calculated. PER, player rating, +/-, etc. Someone point me to a site that makes sense of them plz.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8271 on: February 12, 2013, 01:38:15 PM »
PER's a composite of all the standard box score stats.  You get rewarded for points, rebounds, assists, etc. and penalized for missed shots and turnovers.  It's calculated on a per-possession basis (so you don't get a higher PER by playing more minutes or playing on a team that runs up and down the court, inflating stats like a Don Nelson team).  It's set so that 15 is the average.  Around 20 you get into All Star consideration, 25 MVP.

It's good as a rough measure of the big, visible contributions a player makes, especially for offense/rebounding.  Plus the way it's calculated doesn't reward players who score an empty 18 points a game while playing 40 minutes and shooting a low percentage.  Think of it as a quick-and-dirty estimate for how a player's doing, as a replacement for the old per-game points/rebounds/assists line.


+/- is just how many points a player's team outscores its opponent while he's on the floor.  +5, then his team "won" by 5 points while he was in the game, -7 means they scored 7 fewer than the opponents, etc.  There are various formulas that compare +/- for when a player's in the game vs. when he's on the bench, sometimes trying to take opponents and teammates into account.  That can get complicated quick.


My favorite "advanced" stat is True Shooting percentage.  It's comparable to FG%, only TS% takes three-pointers and free throws into account.  So it's just an improved measure of a player's scoring percentage when they take a "shot" (quotes since it includes drawing a foul as a shot attempt).

Beezy

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8272 on: February 12, 2013, 01:46:36 PM »
Thanks guys. I've only been a basketball fiend for like 2-3 years now. Wow at the formula at that link...

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8273 on: February 12, 2013, 07:39:45 PM »
Yeah, drawing a foul counting as a shot is one of the big areas for improvement. Not to beat the drum unduly but at one point in that Clips game, the announcers mentioned that LeBron had hit 10 of 11 shots while replaying the one he 'missed' - he got clubbed by 3 guys 3ft from the rim and shot FTs. Steve Novak's TS% OTOH doesn't take that hit because he is never within 15 feet of the basket :lol

The other of course is assists that lead to FTs. Or as Bill Simmons likes to call it, the Bird. The Sports VU camera systems should give us a much better handle on both of these...Tom Haberstroh and Zach Lowe have had fascinating pieces about the implications already. Craziest stat so far - James Harden turns it over just 4% of the time when he drives. FOUR PERCENT. When you watch him, he's usually going through a crowd, straight to the hoop. Fucking crazy that he doesn't get stripped at least 20% of the time
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8274 on: February 12, 2013, 07:52:22 PM »
Holy shit, four percent?

Damn.
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benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8275 on: February 12, 2013, 07:55:47 PM »
Here's an old old summary of some stats from Kevin Pelton who used to work for the Sonics, now BasketballProspectus and ESPN Insider: http://www.nba.com/thunder/news/stats101.html

Mandark's PER explanation is good enough for conceptually understanding it. Although I should note that it's calculated on a per-minute basis not per-possession, and because of this, as long as you shoot something like 36% or higher, the more you shoot, the more your PER goes up. (And because it uses team estimates it's "less accurate" than it could be, which is easy to fix like I have by using 82games' data.)

Before he went to ESPN Hollinger used to stress it being a "quick rough summary" more than an end-all measure and that a lot of its value was in being able to see players who score higher than you expect (since 15 is always the league average) or come off the bench (Michael Redd, Andrei Kirilenko, Zach Randolph, etc.) vs. guys who play gobs of minutes (Latrell Sprewell, Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, etc.) and then it was upon you to investigate further about the WHY this is. ESPN has been kinda promoting it more as a definitive score for a player.

If you like the PER formula, you'll love Oliver's offensive/defensive ratings or Rosenbaum's adjusted plus/minus.

A lot of the percentage stats like rebound percentage, steal percentage, etc. are attempts to adjust for the amount of possible attempts. For example, if there's a hundred missed shots in a game and I grab 15 rebounds that's different than if there's only eighty and I grab 15. This is one reason you'll never see anyone in the modern game approach Wilt and Russell's 20+ rebounds per game because there were like 120+ possessions in a game, whereas today there's generally 90-100. Which is why despite never cracking the 20 rebound per game barrier, Rodman has something like seven of the nine best rebounding seasons in history because he was grabbing far more of the available rebounds, even if the total number was less.

The above mentioned TS% is similar, like eFG% in that it acknowledges that all shots are not equal, some are worth two, some three, and in TS%' case there's FT's.

Most of this is an attempt to strip out the "noise" to get closer to the actual "value." If you look at just the scoring totals for example that tells you more about how many games* a player played. So you go down to per game, which really tells you more about how many minutes they played. So you go down to per minute. (The 36 or 40 or 48 is just to make it look "nicer" and be more understandable...when you say "if someone played starter minutes they'd get 20 points" vs. "they get .556 points per minute!") And then the possession stuff is to go down to another level. Kobe might get 30 points but use 40 possessions, while Kyle Korver gets 10 but uses 5. (The value of usage argument is a whole separate thing.)

ORtg and DRtg are basically just saying this is how many points a player produces per possession and how many he "gives up" per possession.

Usage Rate (Usg%) is what % of a teams possessions the player uses while he's on the court. So you have the "stars" like LeBron, Kobe, Melo, etc. using 30+% and guys like Reggie Evans using something closer to 5%.

Win Shares (WS on B-R, there are other "versions" of this same concept like WARP, Wins Produced, etc.) are just attempts to distribute wins to the players based on how much "credit" they deserve. WS/48 is just divided by minutes times 48 so to see who contributes the most per minute.

There's others but I think those are most everything on B-R and I probably shouldn't start pulling out my files.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 08:04:41 PM by benjipwns »

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8276 on: February 12, 2013, 07:55:55 PM »
Well, of course he does get stripped but they are accounting for fouls so...

Also, it's like I summoned this into being:
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8939726/coast-coast-comparing-lebron-james-michael-jordan
vjj

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8277 on: February 12, 2013, 08:10:05 PM »
I wonder if Corey Maggette had similar figures during his "prime" considering how much he went to the line.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8278 on: February 12, 2013, 08:24:56 PM »
Harden is also getting 5.7 assists and 26pts a game while shooting from distance at a reasonable clip so we can probably dispense with the Maggette comparisons
vjj

TakingBackSunday

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Re: The NBA thread
« Reply #8279 on: February 12, 2013, 08:25:25 PM »
Well, of course he does get stripped but they are accounting for fouls so...

Also, it's like I summoned this into being:
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8939726/coast-coast-comparing-lebron-james-michael-jordan

that's the first thing I thought when I saw this earlier today
püp