The NBA thread

[TakingBackSunday]

My sources say that Chris Broussard is a everloving cuntfuck.  According to my sources.

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sources

[close]

[etiolate]

I'm impressed by how clueless everyone is about the Kings/Seattle situation.

McCann said it was remarkable for the NBA to reject the proposal from Hansen and Ballmer, a pair of owners "that had no question marks." The last time the NBA killed a sale and relocation, involving the Minnesota Timberwolves in 1994, the potential buyers in New Orleans had shaky financing.

And because the owners of the TWolves at the time gave the local city no chance to submit their own buyer to keep the team. There was precedence for this, even though the Sacramento/Seattle situation had two high quality buyers. There was no reason for the Kings to move. It was only happening because the current owners were being petty jackasses, but that eventually pissed Stern off so much that he decided to step in. Stern doesn't love Sactown or hate Seattle. He may begrudge Seattle's local government for not helping when they had the chance, but he probably wants a Seattle team to redeem his legacy. (LOL) The problem was that the Sacramento market was viable, had a loyal fanbase, had an ownership group willing to buy the team and an arena deal in place (TWICE!). So when the Maloofs fucked things up with the previous arena deal, they basically made an enemy out of the NBA office and when they tried to fuck over their local fans even more, the NBA made sure they couldn't do it so easily. Enter KJ and his crew, and all that they did, and then there really wasn't a legit reason to move the team.

But the ESPNs and the dumbfuck fans fell back on the idea that the Seattle group had too much money and that Seattle was too glamorous. They dismissed the issues of how a bevy of relocation can devalue the league, that three teams with intertwined lineages that rub against and rub out each other hurts brand identity. That this couldn't be a giant bidding war due to how Hansen tried to sneak this deal in without competition. That there was plenty of money on both sides. How the NBA can't hope to work with cities to build Arenas if they let the Maloofs fuck over a willing city twice over. How hard it is to get a sports venue deal done in California and that the Sacramento arena would be a gateway to improving that situation. Many had no idea that Sacramento fan support was greater than Sonic fan support over the same time period. They were ignorant and loud. And now they're derping away.

Eat a bag of dicks day for everyone!

And you know what would have happened if the team moved to Seattle? All that glamour and love for the city of Seattle would fade in one year and every media pontz would bitch about the misery and weather of going to Seattle every chance they got. So an extra bag of dicks for the media. Double serving.

[TakingBackSunday]

do you guys hear someone talking?

[Steve Contra]

It's supposed to be a basketball thread but someone keeps mentioning Sacramento

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J/K I thought the Kings were definitely going to Seattle, but I'm glad they're staying.  That city doesn't need to get shit on anymore.

[close]

[etiolate]

Also, if you pay attention to the changing wording of responses to questions about relocation, you will see that Adam Silver's reign will probably begin with work being done to add an expansion team for Seattle. Hansen may go after the Bucks, but I still feel the issues of moving and brand identity remain there. The NBA created this problem by allowing the OKC move. They created 31 markets in a league with only 30 teams. The only way to eventually resolve that is to expand. Otherwise, it's a game of musical chairs. ( Kansas City could probably support a team as well, but I think they are on the backburner. )

[Mr. Gundam]

Congrats on keeping your team, man.

The NBA created this problem by allowing the OKC move. They created 31 markets in a league with only 30 teams.

THIS. Fuck Stern. Fuck him. Seriously fuck that man. I find it funny that his guilt over fucking over Seattle in the relocation to OKC led to him fucking over Seattle once again.

Finally, expect Zombie Sonics to make appearances in OKC during the playoffs now.

[etiolate]

Well if he didn't fuck over Seattle then he'd be fucking over Sacramento. Hansen should have gone after a different team. The Maloofs are idiots and likely the reason that Stern worked against the move. There was no good reason for the team to move and it was only happening because of how small-time they are as owners. Hansen preyed upon them to get a binding deal with no compete, but in the end it was probably a bad move.

[Mr. Gundam]

Oh I get that the other option was screwing over Sacramento. I just find it really ironic that his remorse over screwing over Seattle resulted in screwing over Seattle again to prevent another city from losing their team.

I know he doesn't care what people in Seattle think of him, but man oh man is he hated.

[Mandark]

Great news for Sacramento fans, who provided really good crowds during the Webber days.  But it's not like any larger moral issues or the health of the league were at stake.  The Kings have already moved twice, the Sonics move to OKC has obviously not hurt the team's or the league's marketability, and if anything cities seem more willing to pay for arena construction when owners are acting extra shady and untrustworthy.

Pro franchises using relocation as a cudgel to get taxpayer money for arenas is one of my least favorite things about sports, but I don't see it changing.  Could the federal government take away the tax exemption for muni bonds if they were using the funds for a stadium?  They'd probably figure out a dozen ways around it within a week.  Bleh.

[Joe Molotov]

It's supposed to be a basketball thread but someone keeps mentioning Sacramento

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J/K I thought the Kings were definitely going to Seattle, but I'm glad they're staying.  That city doesn't need to get shit on anymore.

[close]

Meanwhile, no one cares if Seattle gets shit on. It's Seattle.

[etiolate]

Great news for Sacramento fans, who provided really good crowds during the Webber days.  But it's not like any larger moral issues or the health of the league were at stake.  The Kings have already moved twice, the Sonics move to OKC has obviously not hurt the team's or the league's marketability, and if anything cities seem more willing to pay for arena construction when owners are acting extra shady and untrustworthy.

Pro franchises using relocation as a cudgel to get taxpayer money for arenas is one of my least favorite things about sports, but I don't see it changing.  Could the federal government take away the tax exemption for muni bonds if they were using the funds for a stadium?  They'd probably figure out a dozen ways around it within a week.  Bleh.

If this was a play to get an arena and the Maloofs were using the moving threat to get an arena built then they could have accomplished that years ago. This is quite a bit different. I also think you're being short-sighted to think the OKC move and further moves won't hurt the league, but I guess sticking with the status quo is your tendecy.

Just to make clear before anyone gets confused: Sac arena won't be paid for through taxes.

[Cormacaroni]

Glad the Kings are staying in Sac. Perhaps etiolate could celebrate this joyous occasion by not calling people cunts etc for 5 mins

I have Steph Curry fever now after that game btw

2 of the most hilarious NO-FUCKING-WAY did he take that 3s i've ever seen a player make in my life. I think it's love <3

I've been watching everything on delay unfortunately - holiday weekend here in Japan so was doin thangs all day

[Cormacaroni]

also great news from Jason Collins - and i guess props to the likes of John Amaechi and Kevin Arnowitz who helped Collins take this step. It can't be easy being the first.

[Steve Contra]

The three from like 5 feet beyond the line

[TakingBackSunday]

that three where he just fucking turns around and jogs off before it even goes in 

[etiolate]

Glad the Kings are staying in Sac. Perhaps etiolate could celebrate this joyous occasion by not calling people cunts etc for 5 mins

I have Steph Curry fever now after that game btw

2 of the most hilarious NO-FUCKING-WAY did he take that 3s i've ever seen a player make in my life. I think it's love <3

I've been watching everything on delay unfortunately - holiday weekend here in Japan so was doin thangs all day

When people stop needlessly being cunts to me then I'll stop calling them out on it.



As for Steph Curry: yeah he's been awesome. The west playoffs are a bit more interesting with Westbrook out. The Warriors could make a run if Bogut can keep playing.

[Cormacaroni]

I would love to see what would happen if he just said fuck it and launched a 3 in transition from 36 feet every time he was open (which for Curry seems to be anytime he's not blanketed by KG and LeBron at once). He's not far off there right now, at 8 attempts a game. If he took 20 of 'em say, what kind of carnage would result. How entertained would we be? Would the offense be more or less efficient?

There's something about those long 3s that defies my ability to compute whether they're going in or not. You watch enough NBA, you pretty much know when a regular 3 is going in.

[Cormacaroni]

Glad the Kings are staying in Sac. Perhaps etiolate could celebrate this joyous occasion by not calling people cunts etc for 5 mins

I have Steph Curry fever now after that game btw

2 of the most hilarious NO-FUCKING-WAY did he take that 3s i've ever seen a player make in my life. I think it's love <3

I've been watching everything on delay unfortunately - holiday weekend here in Japan so was doin thangs all day

When people stop needlessly being cunts to me then I'll stop calling them out on it.



As for Steph Curry: yeah he's been awesome. The west playoffs are a bit more interesting with Westbrook out. The Warriors could make a run if Bogut can keep playing.

Like DMC you are keepin' it real eh. The burden of your passion and honesty

[etiolate]

you know that thing I said about needlessly being a cunt

[Smooth Groove]

meh, not a fan of Stephen Curry

Kids don't need more encouragement to save their energy for offense, dribble forever and take long shots contested or not

Curry is good enough to do it but it's annoying to see inferior talents try the same

[Cormacaroni]

you have no jumper, do you smooth

i can tell

[Cormacaroni]

you know that thing I said about needlessly being a cunt

i referenced that precisely cause it was the last time you called me and others a cunt for no discernible reason

[Smooth Groove]

you have no jumper, do you smooth

i can tell

I pattern my game after the best player

:troll

[Beezy]

meh, not a fan of Stephen Curry

Kids don't need more encouragement to save their energy for offense, dribble forever and take long shots contested or not

Curry is good enough to do it but it's annoying to see inferior talents try the same

So you're not a fan of Curry because he's good at what he does and copycats aren't. Makes perfect sense.

[Cormacaroni]

you have no jumper, do you smooth

i can tell

I pattern my game after the best player

:troll

no jumper

[Smooth Groove]

Not a fan because that style of playing is already attractive to many young players

The success of Curry and the Warriors will make it even more alluring

I don't believe that the Warriors will ever win a championship or even be a perennial conference finalist playing like that but what Curry has done is good enough vindication for people who believe in that kinda basketball

[etiolate]

Defense is an ability/pride thing. I know that's not a technical argument, but Curry isn't an example of someone showing you shouldn't bother with defense. If you are a young player and think that you can skate by with no D because some NBA scorer does then you're a victim of your own foolishness. If you want more than flash then you'll learn to D up regardless of the players you like.

[TakingBackSunday]

to be fair, curry played great D in that third quarter

[Smooth Groove]

you have no jumper, do you smooth

i can tell

I pattern my game after the best player

:troll

no jumper

I hate it when people are playing 1s and 2s

It's even harder to have a consistent jumper when lifting heavy

Defense is an ability/pride thing. I know that's not a technical argument, but Curry isn't an example of someone showing you shouldn't bother with defense. If you are a young player and think that you can skate by with no D because some NBA scorer does then you're a victim of your own foolishness. If you want more than flash then you'll learn to D up regardless of the players you like.

Curry could be much better on D though.  I don't buy that a player can be that quick on offense but not defense. 

But I guess why bother when most fans only care about how much a player's doing on offense? 

You won't believe how often Antawn Jamison is credited by Lakers fans as one of the good guys

[Cormacaroni]

Curry's style is hella entertaining, and times are changing - the 3pt shot is the most important part of the game, and there is plenty of evidence that Curry is the best we've yet seen at it. He can't guard Ty Lawson but Lawson can't guard him either. Curry also distributes plenty and can get into the paint enough to keep the D honest. Would be nice if he could guard as well but go on, name some All-Star quality 2 way PGs, I'm waiting. You got Chris Paul making every one else look bad, basically

[Smooth Groove]

I don't expect Curry to be a two-way beast but there's no excuse for him not even being able to guard the current Steve Nash

At the least, he should be a Tony Parker like defender.  Not great but also not someone who is a pushover on every isolation. 

[Cormacaroni]

do you remember what Tony Parker was like at Curry's age? He was a sieve

[Cormacaroni]

anyway, i am Team Curry although i agree with everything that has been said about his limitations

[Smooth Groove]

Was Parker that bad? 

I can't find the box scores but I remember him doing alright against Jason Kidd in the finals

Parker also held his own against Chris Paul in the Hornets five years ago

I thought CP3 was gonna destroy him

[Cormacaroni]

Parker is perfectly solid now but he was their weakest link for years. He has the major advantage of being able to funnel guards at Duncan of course so you didn't see him getting burned in isolation much.

Curry may never improve, especially if his ankles keep playing up and limiting his lateral quickness, but his frame by itself is not necessarily an indication that he can't be good - just look at Avery Bradley.

I am being denied any games today - kid is off school and hogging the TV :'(

[Smooth Groove]

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9207333/stephen-curry-big-shot

This article made me like Curry more



Btw, is Pistol Pete one of the top 5 most overrated of all time?  Great college player, good player at best in the NBA

No way should he have been 1st ballot HOF or top 50 all time


edit-wrong about HOF, 2nd time but he did make the top 50 list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

[Cormacaroni]

Pistol Pete wasn't shooting no 45% from 3 on 300-plus attempts, i'll tell you that much for free

[Mandark]

Those Spurs championships against the Nets and Pistons almost feel like a different era.  Lots of physical post play and you built your defense around stopping elite centers and wing guys and not worrying too much about PG's.  Loved watching Timmy vs. the Wallaces, but that style of basketball can get real ugly when the teams aren't that talented.

I also think you're being short-sighted to think the OKC move and further moves won't hurt the league, but I guess sticking with the status quo is your tendecy.

Just to make clear before anyone gets confused: Sac arena won't be paid for through taxes.

I'm sure there's some hypothetical threshold for the rate of franchise relocation past which the league and team brands get significantly devalued.  But with a few decades of experience for three or four major pro sports leagues, is there any reason to think we're close to that point or that it's going to ramp up really soon?  The NFL moved teams around at a similar pace in the 90's, baseball in the 50's and 60's.  Relocation's always been a feature of the North American model (closed league/limited teams/shifting population centers) and it's not going to destroy a sport in and of itself.

The Kings arena is going to be funded with parking money, right?  Maybe there's a good argument why this particular case is different, but generally public funds are public funds.  Money's fungible and whether the state/municipality is raising it through taxes, transit fees, or gambling, you're still talking about a government-collected revenue stream that's being diverted to a private business.

[Smooth Groove]

Pistol Pete wasn't shooting no 45% from 3 on 300-plus attempts, i'll tell you that much for free

There was no 3pt shot in NBA until the 79-80 season, Pete's last season

I guess that helps Pete's legacy since he easily could have scored 3 pts more per game on the same attempts if his range was as good as it's reputed to be

[Smooth Groove]

OKC obviously has no problems selling out but what about TV ratings vs Seattle, locally and nationwide?

[Phoenix Dark]

“Whether it’s a free country or not, you should be free to act and do as you want to do, as long as it’s not violent. I came here in a Cookie Monster shirt because I wanted to,” World Peace told reporters at the Lakers' practice facility in El Segundo. “And I was going to wear the pants but I thought you [media] guys were going to judge me. And I was going to wear the hat, too, but I figured you guys would judge me.... I should have wore it. You should be free to do and act how you want to act.”

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-ln-metta-world-peace-cookie-monster-jason-collins-20130429,0,492529.story


"you're joking...but perhaps you're right"

[Flannel Boy]

Confused.

So the city is giving away revenue from parking garages, parking meters, and tickets in the city while, at the same time, handing over a 2,700 parking garage to the Kings for free (revenue the city won't get from parking). Plus it's giving away land for the arena and additional land for six billboards.

If the city is giving away revenue and assets, this must be made up from another source--like taxes.

[Mandark]

OKC obviously has no problems selling out but what about TV ratings vs Seattle, locally and nationwide?

OKC's obviously going to be more of a national TV draw now than the Sonics were by the end, but a Durant/Westbrook contender was going to get ratings no matter where they played.  Plus OKC crowds were way bigger and more enthusiastic for the Hornets in the one transplant season and for the Thunder when they were losing than Seattle crowds had gotten, but again there's definitely a honeymoon effect.

I think a pretty significant factor in sending a team there was that OKC has no other major sports teams, like Utah/Sacramento/San Antonio.

Either way it's a real stretch to see how it's detrimental to the league's health.  We're not moving the Lakers to Fargo here.

[Flannel Boy]

There are a lot of lakes to the east of Fargo. And Fargo is just a short distance away from a major world class city, Winnipeg!

[etiolate]

Wish I could find more info on the arena deal for Sacramento. There was a link to the term sheet but now it's a dead link.

The cost is split:

Details are still a bit scarce, but reports indicate that the deal is for a $448 million arena with the city putting in $258 million and the private investors putting in $190 million.

Pre-development costs covered by investors.

The investors will pay $6 million in pre-development costs. The Maloofs had never agreed to do that in 2012, apparently. The investors have included their willingness to do that in the term sheet, so we won't have to worry about that hiccup in May or June.

As for the parking revenue:

The investors are making no claim on city parking revenues on game nights. The Maloofs did make such a claim, which basically negated the benefit of using city parking revenue to finance the arena and boost said parking revenue. The investors will only reap benefits from some existing parking under Downtown Plaza that will be preserved. That will 2,700 spots, 1,000 of which will be premium spots. Those spots will all still be city-owned, but the investors will be able to operate them for the length of the arena lease.

In this term sheet, the investors are pledging up to $500 million in investment at the Plaza and nearby city properties. (I note that this is more pledge than guarantee -- there are a lot of "up to X square feet" references in this section. But given what Burkle did in Pittsburgh and the financial wherewithal and interest in investing here, it's better than the prospects were in the Railyards.)

So yeah it involves city help being repaid via parking revenue. It's not a tax burden like some Seattle people seem to think. It's also a 35 year lease, so there won't be a repeat of relocation talks in a handful of years. As a former Sacramento inhabitant, I can say it's important to have another attraction in downtown as the area is the most interesting part of the city and a way to make the city more attractive. People think Sacramento sucks because they have a half-assed idea. They either go the burbs where there's nothing but strip malls or live in the burbs and never leave.

I'd rather have ownership groups pay for their arenas, but Sacramento needed another big attraction in the downtown area as well. There were plans to do such for many years and the Kings/Arena situation got pulled into that deal.

[Flannel Boy]

The investors are making no claim on city parking revenues on game nights.

Yet, they're indirectly, through a bond backed by city wide parking revenue, making a claim to parking revenues every night.

The investors will only reap benefits from some existing parking under Downtown Plaza that will be preserved. That will 2,700 spots, 1,000 of which will be premium spots. Those spots will all still be city-owned, but the investors will be able to operate them for the length of the arena lease.

operate = collect money and stash it in their jeans.

[etiolate]

I am not sure what you're on about. I said the arena plan won't be paid for through city taxes. It's not a tax burden. It could eventually fall on the city if the parking revenue does not repay the loan, but even that is unclear on whether that could impact the city's general funds. There will be a hotel tax as a source of extra padding for that 260 million.

I am not for public funding which seems to be the angle you're trying to put on me. I'm glad this is partially public funded only and I realize that there would have been public funding and government involvement to continue pushing the development of the downtown area without the arena existing. There had already been such dealings with the Taylor group.

[Mandark]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically the city is borrowing money to fund the arena, then raising the funds to pay off the debt by taxing parking and hotels, no?

[TakingBackSunday]

Back to curry for a minute

did you guys forgot that the dude had like three steals in the third quarter?

He can play D when he really dials in, but I think he's better as a fast break defender.  One-on-one, dem ankles will show up.

[Mandark]

That one-man fast break where he stole the ball and then leaned in on a 3 was one of the greatest heat checks I've ever seen.

[Flannel Boy]

I said the arena plan won't be paid for through city taxes. It's not a tax burden. It could eventually fall on the city if the parking revenue does not repay the loan, but even that is unclear on whether that could impact the city's general funds.

I fail to see the distinction between a city financing a stadium through $250 million in bonds backed by municipal parking assets and revenues (minus 2700 spaces) and a city financing a stadium through $250 million in tax revenue.

[etiolate]

I said the arena plan won't be paid for through city taxes. It's not a tax burden. It could eventually fall on the city if the parking revenue does not repay the loan, but even that is unclear on whether that could impact the city's general funds.

I fail to see the distinction between a city financing a stadium through $250 million in bonds backed by municipal parking assets and revenues (minus 2700 spaces) and a city financing a stadium through $250 million in tax revenue.

One of the bigger differences is that the part of the public that want the arena and arena events will be contributing to the payment of the arena instead of the entirety of the city/county paying taxes for it regardless of whether they have any interest in it.

[Flannel Boy]

I said the arena plan won't be paid for through city taxes. It's not a tax burden. It could eventually fall on the city if the parking revenue does not repay the loan, but even that is unclear on whether that could impact the city's general funds.

I fail to see the distinction between a city financing a stadium through $250 million in bonds backed by municipal parking assets and revenues (minus 2700 spaces) and a city financing a stadium through $250 million in tax revenue.

One of the bigger differences is that the part of the public that want the arena and arena events will be contributing to the payment of the arena instead of the entirety of the city/county paying taxes for it regardless of whether they have any interest in it.

They won't be contributing much if they happen to park in the 2700 spaces the city is gifting.

The indifferent public who park on city streets or parking garages or pay parking tickets will also be contributing.

[Stoney Mason]

That was a nasty ass Durant dunk.

[Stoney Mason]

wtf harden

[Stoney Mason]

Ibaka blows the layup. That Rockets offense in crunch time though was terrible.

[Cormacaroni]

Harden throws all his efficiency out the window in the last 2 mins of a close game. Horrible hero ball there but par for the course for him this season.

[Mandark]

http://eyeonsacramento.com/2013/03/an-eye-on-sacramento-report-on-the-arena-proposal/

Watchdog report on the proposed SAC arena deal, for whoever's interested.

[pilonv1]

congrats etiolate

[etiolate]

http://eyeonsacramento.com/2013/03/an-eye-on-sacramento-report-on-the-arena-proposal/

Watchdog report on the proposed SAC arena deal, for whoever's interested.

thanks

It seems that report doesn't know about the general fund protection either. Somewhere, I think I found an update on that and the 600k figure in there. It may have just been more talk about the TOT hotel fund.

sacramentan stuff
They also see K street mall as the area to renovate and the public assistance programs there being a roadblock. I would rather they note wipe out the public assistance systems there, but I also understand that the Lightrail system has a stop there and it's sort of a damning image to get off the train to a collection of 'dirty poors'. I also wouldn't be surprised if the regrowth starts to succeed that it won't instead move towards the waterfront than continuing in the direction of K Street. The current location of the downtown plaza that is to be reformed into an arena is right between Old Sacramento and the Capitol Building, with the K street mall area connecting the space between the Capitol Building and the Plaza. So it's between the two biggest tourist attractions/traps in a city with not a lot of tourism. However, the riverfront area is directly north of Old Sacramento and doesn't have the 'dirty poors' issue.

The one thing I feel is left out is that they compare the cost of creating smaller urban renewal jobs and the permanent jobs formed from that to the jobs created via construction and the jobs associated with the arena. We don't know how many people the new ownership will employ and the staff size of the new arena compared to the old one. We also don't know that any businesses that prop up from any smaller urban renewal will last. Retaining tenants has been a problem in the downtown area, while a pro team on a 35 year lease is a more assured employment at a much higher cost of creation.

So the plan could be better. It is impacted by the rush to assemble it, but it was also done once before so it's not as rushed as it would seem according to the Seattle move timeline. It still could be improved upon and I am wondering if things like letting private companies work the parking garages will end up happening before the arena is built.

I don't see it as something done to force an arena deal past critical eyes. The Maloofs simply were out to kill the team in the city. They already had their rushed arena deal and backed out over unreasonable, last-minute demands. They had a tax funded arena deal shot down by their own public stand against it days before it went to vote. They kept asking the locals to build them an arena or they'd move, then kill the arena deal when it started to progress. 

Malek, yes people who use the general area will be paying towards the arena. Some visitors will be paying towards the arena via hotel taxes. So it's not related to use of the arena, but use of the area. It's also not falling on the locals in that way.  The aim is also for the general area to have growth. I still don't see your aim though and I don't think anyone cares.