The NBA thread

[Stoney Mason]

Honestly I was watching westworld for 15 minutes and I came back to the game and it was over.

I didn't see what happened.

[Nola]

Honestly I was watching westworld for 15 minutes and I came back to the game and it was over.

I didn't see what happened.

Pels shook, refs wearing gold under their stripes, Dubs doing Dubs things.

[Stoney Mason]

I think Rockets are gonna win it all

That is the great experiment. They have created a competing vision of how to play modern basketball and while I personally don't find it that enjoyable to watch, it does work. I just have a feeling, it won't be enough against the Warriors.

[Nola]

I think Rockets are gonna win it all

That is the great experiment. They have created a competing vision of how to play modern basketball and while I personally don't find it that enjoyable to watch, it does work. I just have a feeling, it won't be enough against the Warriors.

The Warriors playing on all cylinders still feels like a level above the Rockets when it comes to a 7 game series. So I'm with you on that, even though I am beyond tired of seeing the Warriors in the Finals. To the point I will actually root for the Rockets if it comes to it.

[Stoney Mason]

My new favorite hobby I picked up this season was reading the game threads and post game threads on reddit for each team. It basically gives really good insight into the mind's eye of every franchise. Not to mention you get good random salt posts.

Bean315 3 points 2 minutes ago
I want to reiterate how much of a human cum receptacle Chris Webber is. How can this mother fucker talk about what it takes to win when he lost a championship by calling a timeout?

Seriously this Warriors bukkake party is really pissing me off. Fuck Chris Webber and fuck KD- he’s only good because he can hit mid range jumpers.

–]realstekcor 1 point 4 minutes ago
yeah so these refs need to calm down in how much they are favoring the larriors. like anyone with a clear brain can see how hard they're rigging this. every ticky tac touch on the larrior is a foul. i know these mfer's are the poster childs but at least be some what fair. jrue, moore, and clark all in foul trouble with fouls which should be a no call

lol. I'm not saying they are wrong or untitled to their opinions or anything. It just always tickles me. Each team has its own little memes and personalities.

Btw every team hates their coach except for like 3.

[Nola]

Can't say I don't feel where they are coming from. Even if I think we are just getting outmatched and shook even without some of the BS.

I mean Durant out here getting FT's on swing throughs that the league specifically emphasized not giving FT's in good part because of him.

[Nola]

Pels shook, scared to do anything defensively, can't get out of their own heads and focus offensively, this game feels done....Not that it didn't after that 19 point run in the second.

[Stoney Mason]

https://twitter.com/celtics/status/990414241126649856

[El Babua]

Bron 7-7 Tristan 7 REB, Pacers can't buy a shot

Stay strong Stro

[benjipwns]

all these years later, LeBron in murder everybody mode is still crazy to watch happen

his speed and size makes it look more like he's really physically controlling the game like prime Shaq versus say, Jordan's (or Bird) "no mistakes" style of efficiency

spoiler (click to show/hide)

defense rules/mentality changes help as you can see everyone on the court instinctively start to shift as the ball heads towards him/Shaq

[close]

[benjipwns]

also i heard a rumor that Kevin Love once averaged 25/12 and even had a 20/15 season, crazy if true

[Stoney Mason]

Lebron had an insane series of course. Maybe the best of his career.

Averaged 34.4/10.1/7.7/1.4/1.0 on a 65.5 TS%

Series was crazy close all throughout. Pacers easily could/should have advanced.

I think they may be the capper for the season for the cavs because its hard to see them upending toronto over 7.



Rockets will beat Jazz in 5 or 6.

[etiolate]

Some of the Pacer players weren't quite ready for a game 7 atmosphere. Sabonis struggled in this game and the Cavs were leaving him open all the time.

[Stoney Mason]

For all the shit he has gotten Tristan was big today. He was ready for the game in a way Nance hasn't been the entire series. Clarkson also seemed lost the entire series when he was the best bench scorer during the season for the cavs.

[benjipwns]

I know you were talking about a single series and we all have misgivings about PER, but often overlooked is LeBron 1.0's 2009 playoffs, which are still by some margin the all time leader in playoff PER at 37.4 (for minimum five games, 100 minutes...LeBron had 14 games, 580 minutes), and it was similarly absurd in the first two rounds when he abused Detroit and Atlanta in sweeps, bringing in the game one loss by one point against Orlando he was at 34.7/9.3/6.9/2.0/0.9 on 65.4% TS through nine games.

His 2018 run so far currently ranks...second easily.

Third place is George Mikan in 1954, his last run before the shot clock, 19.4/13.2 at 54.3% TS and 33.6 PER. Kareem in 1977 is fourth when he averaged 34.6/17.7/4.1/1.7/3.5 over 11 games at 64.6% TS and 32.4 PER.

Jordan's 1991 is next and the only one sans Mikan to result in a title, 31.1/6.4/8.4/2.4/1.4 at 60% TS, 32.0 PER. (Though other title winning ones are farther down the list, these are actually remarkable because they were for so many games which normally would weed out the absurd ones.)

By PER, Hakeem, I believe still has the highest rated playoff series ever from 1988, he averaged 37.5/16.8/1.8/2.3/2.8 on 64% TS giving him a 39.0 PER. But it was a 1-3 loss to Dallas. And the game Houston won was Sleepy Floyd throwing up 42 points on 73% FG% next to Hakeem's 41/26/2/3/4.

[Nola]

On a personal note, and it doesn't really change much of the historical parallels you are making, Lebron has had some serious GOAT tier performances, but I have always hated the use of TS% when analyzing performances outside of the modern era. Since the enormous value emphasis shift on the three point shot, which is reflected in the weight of the statistic, makes it a bit of an unfair marker to judge past performances with.

The fact Jordan had a 60% TS% in 1991 taking 2 3 point shots a game is actually insanely impressive considering the context of the era. While Lebron was basically averaging as many 3PA's as the entire Bulls team was averaging over it's season: 5.8 vs 6.

[benjipwns]

You might be thinking more about eFG% than TS%. TS generally more evens out the efficiencies from shooting only at the hoop (all-time leader DeAndre Jordan), racking up FT's you're automatic at (Adrian Dantley), bombing in threes (Reggie Miller), doing purely the latter two (Chauncey Billups), for example. Stephen Curry is the only guy in the top seven NBA leaders in TS to take more than 40 three point attempts in their whole career. Reggie Miller is next, then it's Chuck and then Durant.

LeBron's career 58.6% TS vs. Jordan's career 56.9% isn't purely from threes, LeBron has surpassed Jordan in general FG% too now. Where LeBron most benefits off threes is that his superior three point making (Jordan never was a good three point shooter when the line was longer except for short periods) makes up for his inferior FT%.

Since LeBron went to Miami and came back, his FG% is 53.4%. Taking Jordan's seven best seasons, his FG% is 51.8%. LeBron's taken and made twice as many threes at 36% vs. Jordan over those years hitting 35% (most of which come from two seasons, one of which, plus his 17 game comeback, being at the shorter line) but that generally evens out the fact that LeBron has taken one less FT a game while making two fewer since he shot 74% vs. Jordan's 84%. It's the FG% that separates them more now.

Where TS% probably most underrates is players who didn't even have the three point line. It also really hurts their points. I saw a blog post where someone gave Jerry West, Pete Maravich and Rick Barry hypothetical 3PT shots that weren't even like Miller/Allen/etc. levels and it could add up to five points a game to their averages. Not to mention anecdotal evidence about how often they shot from out there but only got two points for it.

Even without it, the relative performance of some of those guys was pretty impressive even if they never could hit the 60% range without, Big O:

Code: [Select]

1960-61 NBA .555 (1st)
1961-62 NBA .554 (2nd)
1962-63 NBA .588 (2nd)
1963-64 NBA .576 (2nd)
1964-65 NBA .561 (3rd)
1965-66 NBA .563 (2nd)
1966-67 NBA .583 (2nd)
1967-68 NBA .588 (2nd)
1968-69 NBA .579 (2nd)
1969-70 NBA .577 (3rd)
1970-71 NBA .563 (7th)West:

Code: [Select]

1961-62 NBA .524 (8th)
1963-64 NBA .561 (4th)
1964-65 NBA .572 (2nd)
1965-66 NBA .573 (1st)
1966-67 NBA .559 (4th)
1967-68 NBA .590 (1st)
1968-69 NBA .557 (6th)
1969-70 NBA .572 (6th)
1970-71 NBA .571 (5th)
Rick Barry has the advantage of the seasons he played in the ABA giving us a peak at the possibilities even though he took 1.5 a game at 28%:

Code: [Select]

1968-69 ABA .616 (1st)
1969-70 ABA .582 (1st)At 35, his final season, he took 3 a game and hit 33% in the NBA's first season with the line.

for comparison, LeBron and Jordan and Curry:

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

2011-12 NBA .605 (9th)
2012-13 NBA .640 (3rd)
2013-14 NBA .649 (2nd)
Active .586 (10th)
Career NBA .586 (37th)

Code: [Select]

1988-89 NBA .614 (6th)
Career NBA .569 (88th)

Code: [Select]

2013-14 NBA .610 (6th)
2014-15 NBA .638 (4th)
2015-16 NBA .669 (1st)
2016-17 NBA .624 (10th)
2017-18 NBA .675 (1st)
Active .621 (3rd)
Career NBA .621 (5th)
Tyson Chandler:

Code: [Select]

2006-07 NBA .620 (4th)
2007-08 NBA .632 (5th)
2010-11 NBA .697 (1st)
2011-12 NBA .708 (1st)
2012-13 NBA .671 (1st)
2014-15 NBA .697 (2nd)
Active .625 (2nd)
Career NBA .625 (4th)

[close]

[benjipwns]

Speaking of playoff runs and TS%, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention James Donaldson in 1986.

He had a TS of 83% over ten games. 410 minutes! 9.6 ppg!

The Birdman in 2013 out did him by shooting 81% from the floor vs. Donaldson's disgustingly poor 75% FG%. But Donaldson was the better FT man, so Andersen only finished with a 82% TS over the 20 games the Heat took to win the title.

[Nola]

IMO both of them have their shortcomings in general and when measuring across eras, EFG% definitely more so. I honestly don't really look at EFG% much.

But where you are going into the weeds gets closer to why I have personally shied away from really having GOAT discussions anymore.

On the pro-Jordan GOAT side I could say if you "modernized Jordan's game" to give him a more fair shake in these metrics, and take Jordan's ~22FGA and shot selection per game and instead of coaching him to shoot 22 of them inside the arc, shift 3-4 more of those on his 38% playoff 3P percentages across the 90-93 seasons and a few less of his long mid range jumpers into attacking the basket - where he was more efficient -  his TS% likely looks even better. Straight insane. But the anti-Jordan side could point to the way the rules are different now, how defenses are more complex, look at the teams in which Jordan had and what a player like Lebron has done with less, and the overall efficiency of Lebron over Jordan especially when you include the assists. And the pro-Jordan side can come back and argue how the neutering of the big man and the lack of hand-checking has made it even easier for games like Lebron's to thrive. On and on and on.



When you drill down into it, at least when I have, you get lost and end up arguing any number of side issues into oblivion and never settling on anything.

[benjipwns]

i long ago transitioned to only really considering players against their era, and for cross-era it being like something resembling "he dominated his era more in x, y and z"

i mean even something as simple as Wilt and Russell having to fly commercial, playing back-to-back-to-backs regularly, "put ice on it" solutions, high level racism, etc. versus having chartered jets designed for tall men, modern medicine, modern 24/7 coaching/development resources, the whole infrastructure for players lives, etc.

[benjipwns]

i think it might have been Elgin Baylor, who had he had his first, less serious, knee injury five years later, doctors would have done something completely different and it would have cut in half the chances of his second knee injury that started his decline and caused his third fatal-to-his-career knee injury (which left him with like no cartilage in either knee) that led to him retiring just before the Lakers won 33 straight and the title finally

not to mention just a couple years earlier in his career when he had to miss half the season to hang out around army barracks doing who knows what that probably wasn't very "pro-career"

[Stoney Mason]

Zache Lowe article on the OKC situation with Westbrook

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23364202/zach-lowe-russell-westbrook-oklahoma-city-thunder-nba


Vegas odds for teams making the finals.

Eastern Conference

Code: [Select]

Team                      Odds
Philadelphia 76ers        6/5
Toronto Raptors                8/5
Cleveland Cavaliers       17/4
Boston Celtics                18/1

Western Conference

Code: [Select]

Team                     Odds
Golden State Warriors       5/8
Houston Rockets             5/4
New Orleans Pelicans    51/1
Utah Jazz            51/1


[Stoney Mason]

Should be a brutal slugfest of a series. Boston is completely outmanned talent wise but they play hellacious annoying defense and Stevens is great. I'll say 76ers in 6 or 7.

I was 6-2 in that first round. Missed on Portland and Utah. 

[Stoney Mason]

Now Marcus Smart looks like he re-injured that thumb after a great Celtics first half  :'(

[Stoney Mason]

Not a rookie chant at Ben Simmons

 

[Stoney Mason]

I can't emphasize enough how nuts what the Celtics do is. They are truly the new Spurs.

[Stoney Mason]

He's a rookie chant for Tatum. Crowd is at maximum troll levels.

[Nola]

https://mobile.twitter.com/MicahAdams13/status/991155371514499072

 

[etiolate]

https://twitter.com/swish41/status/991349838221598721

Dirk

[Stoney Mason]

I'm actually gonna pick the Raptors in 6 or 7 in this one. Not that the Cavs can't win. I just don't think Lebron can keep up this pace with this workload, and the raptors have so many looks and bodies they can throw at the Cavs.

[El Babua]

This is the worst clock management/timeout usage I've seen down the stretch in a playoff game.

Playoff Raps have arrived

[Akala]

Has been an entertaining stretch.

Hopefully pels hang a bit better tonight.

[benjipwns]

you just can't rely on drake to come through in the playoffs, they need to think about acquiring a different sideline rapper

[benjipwns]

Detroit Pistons owner Tom Gores wants Stan Van Gundy to return as coach for the final year of his contract, but would prefer for that scenario to include structural changes to the franchise's front office, league sources told ESPN.
...
Bower -- whom Van Gundy hired and trusts to run the day-to-day operations of his front office -- is set to meet separately with Gores this week, league sources said.

Bower is in the final year of his contract.

Van Gundy has one year and $7 million left on his original five-year deal, but most of his front office and coaching staff are in the final year of their contracts.

Atlanta, this is how you fire the guy you stupidly made your GM/Coach with $$$ left on his deal, you figured out the "first take away one job, then isolate him" part well enough but blew your wad too soon even though the team will still be garbage anyway

[agrajag]

Herculean effort by Lebron and co. to pull this one out.

[etiolate]

y u do this toronto

[Stoney Mason]

Raptors are such a weird team. They have too much talent to just absolutely suck balls on offense for such long stretches. That loss is on them. Cleveland gave them plenty of opportunities to win it.

[agrajag]

Lowry just isn't that good imo. Cleveland don't have a decent point guard either, but you don't need one with Lebron

[Nola]

Man, Solomon Hill shouldn't even be getting minutes on a non tanking team.....We are paying him 12.5 million a year to brick wide open shots and play average defense.

[benjipwns]

Cavs had only five turnovers, three of which were LeBron and Love's, who combined to Westbrick at 15/43 including 2/12 from three, and LeBron went 1/6 at the line...but the rest of the team shot 12/21 from three and 14/15 at the line

[Nola]

Need to clean up the rotations on defense and not let ourselves try and match their threes with our threes.

But other than that, we are playing in a way that we still have a punchers chance, which is about the ceiling I had for any game in Golden State.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Helps the officiating has been even-handed tonight 

[close]

[etiolate]

So hilarious seeing Warrior fans act astonished that someone would want to punch Dray.

[team filler]

https://twitter.com/anthonyVslater/status/991556757745881088

[benjipwns]

Chuck's obviously got to throw him through a plate glass window now.

[benjipwns]

Also that had looked like a Rondo Warning™ to me. A punch in the face is the least of your worries Draymond, family members need to be moved to secure locations.

[Stoney Mason]

Jazz

 

[Stoney Mason]

Rockets play in such a bitchy manner. So hard to enjoy them.

[Stoney Mason]

That being said when they turn it on, they turn it on.

[Stoney Mason]

Nice Jazz win. I'm glad the rocket's flopping bullshit wasn't rewarded this game.

[etiolate]

FT attempts pretty even. Jazz bench way outscored the Rockets bench.

[Brehvolution]

That Donovan Mitchell put back dunk. 

[Stoney Mason]

Damn it. Knicks hired real coach instead of some of the joke candidates that would have been trainwreck funny.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23396895/david-fizdale-agrees-deal-become-new-york-knicks-head-coach

[agrajag]

Lebron is an animal

[Stoney Mason]

Raptors

[Stoney Mason]

Jesus Christ those two Lebron fadeaways

[Stoney Mason]

That was a snatch your soul game from Toronto.

[Stoney Mason]

Furious rally by the Celtics there

[agrajag]

man Boston is good. And without their two starters

[Stoney Mason]

Simmons has been bad tonight

[Stoney Mason]

Another impressive Celtics win