"A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics

[Great Rumbler]

I guess this is the page where we pretend liberals didn't go apeshit over Bush. Hey guys, remember how we were going to attack Iran imminently, and Bush would declare martial law to cancel the 2006 (and 2008) elections? Trutherism, or the more tame "Bush knew and did nothing to justify war" arguments?

Dunno what you guys were doing in the aughts but I was knee deep in the Randy Rhodes and antiwar.com trenches

Not saying things aren't worse now, just saying liberals had plenty of crazy shit for 8 years

There's a complete difference between that stuff (which all happened WELL AFTER the bullshit Iraq war) and what the GOP did re: Benghazi.  That's complete and total false equivalence.  Show me the Democrat saying Bush was incompetent and a pussy on 9/12, because that's what we're talking about here.  You can't equate some crazy ass leftist activists calling Bush Hitler in 2006 to the GOP nominee attempting to exploit a terrorist attack like that.  You're either being willfully obtuse or (more likely) trolling the shit out of me.

I was making a general point on the idea that insane conspiracy theories/crazy emails/etc are predominantly exclusive to one group. There's no question the Libya shit has been disgusting, not just from the fringe folks (which is to be expected) but from mainstream republicans as well.

Uh...yeah, that's the whole point, PD.

[Brehvolution]

I guess this is the page where we pretend liberals didn't go apeshit over Bush. Hey guys, remember how we were going to attack Iran imminently, and Bush would declare martial law to cancel the 2006 (and 2008) elections? Trutherism, or the more tame "Bush knew and did nothing to justify war" arguments?

Dunno what you guys were doing in the aughts but I was knee deep in the Randy Rhodes and antiwar.com trenches

Not saying things aren't worse now, just saying liberals had plenty of crazy shit for 8 years

There's a complete difference between that stuff (which all happened WELL AFTER the bullshit Iraq war) and what the GOP did re: Benghazi.  That's complete and total false equivalence.  Show me the Democrat saying Bush was incompetent and a pussy on 9/12, because that's what we're talking about here.  You can't equate some crazy ass leftist activists calling Bush Hitler in 2006 to the GOP nominee attempting to exploit a terrorist attack like that.  You're either being willfully obtuse or (more likely) trolling the shit out of me.

I was making a general point on the idea that insane conspiracy theories/crazy emails/etc are predominantly exclusive to one group. There's no question the Libya shit has been disgusting, not just from the fringe folks (which is to be expected) but from mainstream republicans as well.

The nation was united for Afghanistan. Then Iraq came out of left right field and the nation was fooled that Iraq was part of the problem.

 When Rupert fucking Murdock says he was trying to sell the Iraq war to the people, realize the hatred toward right wing media earned is earned.

[TakingBackSunday]

PD fucking shut up.  you and I both know obama has this locked down 70/30.  you're gaf trolling has gotten worse and worse

[Phoenix Dark]

Which is what I think is the biggest problem here, Great Rumbler. Rush going crazy is one thing, but having elected officials give credence to nearly every Obama conspiracy theory is something else. They're so focused on ensuring they secure the votes (and money) of their crazy base that they're willing to outright cosign or insinuate ("that's an interesting question....I've heard that too....that's a good point...") agreement with some nasty shit.

Which ties into the congressional obstruction: if you've called Obama a threat to America, democracy, someone who doesn't understand or care for America, etc...how do you help him do anything, even stuff you agreed with in the past?

[Mandark]

Dunno what you guys were doing in the aughts but I was knee deep in the Randy Rhodes and antiwar.com trenches

Yeah, well I was reading Brad DeLong, Juan Cole, and Paul Krugman. 

[Mandark]

And seriously, PD.  You gonna argue that liberals have adopted the chain email/FB copypasta as a tool for spreading ideas/FUD to anywhere near the degree that conservatives have?  Rilly?

[Phoenix Dark]

And seriously, PD.  You gonna argue that liberals have adopted the chain email/FB copypasta as a tool for spreading ideas/FUD to anywhere near the degree that conservatives have?  Rilly?

No, I wouldn't argue that; there are simply too many old people to exploit for liberals to catch up with conservatives in that regard. And liberals don't have the Fox News/conservative radio machine to propagate shit as fast. And yet liberals peddled a whole lot of bullshit for eight years. As I said, we can't just pretend like liberals don't go crazy too

[Great Rumbler]

But it's not comparable at all, as you yourself just explained.

[Phoenix Dark]

Guess I'll re-post my post

I guess this is the page where we pretend liberals didn't go apeshit over Bush. Hey guys, remember how we were going to attack Iran imminently, and Bush would declare martial law to cancel the 2006 (and 2008) elections? Trutherism, or the more tame "Bush knew and did nothing to justify war" arguments?

Dunno what you guys were doing in the aughts but I was knee deep in the Randy Rhodes and antiwar.com trenches

Not saying things aren't worse now, just saying liberals had plenty of crazy shit for 8 years

Not a comment on who has the most nonsense, or propagates it most effectively.

[Mandark]

Except the conversation to that point was about how FUD was spread.  You're addressing a different point only to the degree that you were preemptively calling people hypocrites for shit they hadn't said, which is not a good look.

[Phoenix Dark]

Actually Great Rumbler's post argues that liberals have some nasty attacks, but at least they're rooted in some facts
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=28125.msg1571790#msg1571790

I don't think there's a tangible difference between the worse of the left and right; again, unless you pretend many on the far left weren't arguing 911 was an inside job, Bush was going to declare martial law, etc.

While I'd rather make presidential comparisons in terms of FUD, Romney is also getting accused of being racist and being some Israeli puppet/Bibi butt buddy. I wouldn't say it's nearly as overt or saturated as what Obama deals with as president (or even before he became president, tbh) but again, my point is that both sides are guilty of this. I hate to play the role of Willco, but it's the truth

[Himu]

The thing that make the Obama conspiracy theories and insults more ridiculous than the "Bush is a fascist" crap, is they seem random and insults for the sake of insults. My favorite of which being that Obama is a socialist which usually is just another word for "distinguished black fellow".

[Mandark]

Yeah yeah, both sides are guilty if you define "both sides" as encompassing everyone and "guilty" as "containing a subset of crazies".  Well no shit.  You're not going to get a sample size in the tens of millions without getting some cranks.  But what point are you trying to make by nutpicking?

Great Rumbler's relatives aren't "the worst" of the right, they're right around the median.  That's the difference.

[Phoenix Dark]

Out of interest, how would you describe the median of Bush criticism (at the time)?

[Positive Touch]

yes jesus christ it's not that hard - right wing CANDIDATES and major media personalities on the right spread the foulest fucking lies that internet scum and other assorted fools come up with about their opponents. left wing candidates and media personalities ignore the shit that forum freaks come up with and go with other lines of attack.

Out of interest, how would you describe the median of Bush criticism (at the time)?

do you not remember that in the run-up to the iraq war it was damn near IMPOSSIBLE to find a critic on a major news station? that for years after 9/11 most complaints of the administration were left to the blogs and the occasional op-ed?

[Great Rumbler]

PD is definitely right about playing the role of Willco in this thread, that's for sure.

[Himu]

Bush criticism from democrats in the 00's was high, especially once we went to war with Iraq. Remember how it was a joke that Bush looked like a monkey? And many claims that Bush was the worst president ever? Bush criticism was rife, and common. For Democrats, Bush was treated as the worst thing to happen to America in our life times. Remember Fahrenheit 9-11? Super Size Me?

It's funny how Michael Moore, THE poster child of anti-Bush movement, to my knowledge has yet to make similar films about Obama. That the two parties members are only interested in partisan gymnastics shouldn't come as a shock. But Mandark is right in that for the MOST PART, Republicans tend to swing towards an extremism that Democrats just don't embody.

[Great Rumbler]

...Super Size Me? I thought that was about McDonald's?

[Mandark]

It's funny how Michael Moore, THE poster child of anti-Bush movement, to my knowledge has yet to make similar films about Obama.

Yeah, it's funny how Michael Moore, whose career was made by a documentary on the plight of Flint, Michigan, wouldn't be equally as critical of Barack Obama, the guy who bailed out General Motors.  Hollow partisanship must be the only explanation!

And yeah, Super Size Me?  Huh?



PD:  How bout you tell me what the median criticism was, cause you seem to be implying that trutherism was basically standard issue.

[Human Snorenado]

Guys, guys, guys.  Don't you see?  A powerless protest marcher held up a sign calling Bush Hitler in 2006.  That's basically the same thing as Mitt Romney, Republican nominee for President, jumping on the death of four American diplomats less than 24 hours after they had died as a political attack.  BOTH SIDES DO IT!

[Phoenix Dark]

PD:  How bout you tell me what the median criticism was, cause you seem to be implying that trutherism was basically standard issue.

I never said that. Still, I'm curious what you'd label the median criticism from the left to be, as you brought it up first.

[Mandark]

You want a serious discussion or you just want internet thrust-and-parry?  Cause I'm down for either but I gotta know what to spec for.

[Phoenix Dark]

You want a serious discussion or you just want internet thrust-and-parry?  Cause I'm down for either but I gotta know what to spec for.

Serious discussion. Real talk. I don't think I'm out of bounds here. It's true Clinton and Obama faced a shit ton of FUD from a rather well oiled outrage machine. My only point is that Bush dealt with a lot of nonsense from the left as well. And I readily admit that  we didn't see mainstream elected democrats participate in shit like this - ie giving credence to the most gutter shit for votes.

[Eric P]

Well, what are the UN stormtroopers going to come take away if you don't have any guns?

...white women?

True, that's why I keep a several safely stored in my underground binder for emergencies.

[Himu]

...Super Size Me? I thought that was about McDonald's?

[Dickie Dee]

You want a serious discussion or you just want internet thrust-and-parry?  Cause I'm down for either but I gotta know what to spec for.

Serious discussion. Real talk. I don't think I'm out of bounds here. It's true Clinton and Obama faced a shit ton of FUD from a rather well oiled outrage machine. My only point is that Bush dealt with a lot of nonsense from the left as well. And I readily admit that  we didn't see mainstream elected democrats participate in shit like this - ie giving credence to the most gutter shit for votes.

So you're saying that other than not being comparable at all...they're totally the same thing?

Not sure why y'all are keeping up the arguement with PD when he's already troll-two-stepped himself out of having any real point at all

[Mandark]

Saying "there was craziness on the left" is both true and insignificant.  There are millions of people on The Left!  Some are gonna be fucking crazy.  So?

Now, a lot of what Great Rumbler was getting at is true and significant.  There's a chain email/talk radio/Fox News echo chamber that spreads a remarkable amount of bad information, it's very popular among mainstream conservatives, it has no real equivalent on the liberal side, it's been bent on painting Obama as nefarious since before he took office and it's influential in Republican electoral politics and movement conservative organizing.  It's a huge part of why the GOP successfully maintained lockstep opposition in Obama's first couple years in office.

This is stuff that's shaping our politics.  To the degree that the stuff we type in here isn't a complete waste of time (haw haw haw) it's worth discussing, and not dismissing.  And hell, if you don't think the situations are equivalent, then why make the comparison?  Really, why?  What point are you getting at?  What are you saying, or trying to say?

[recursivelyenumerable]

Discussion of any contentious topic on the internet - political, technical or whatever - is going to involve a lot of shit from all sides (+ linkbaiting pundits in between) that is fucking crazy and/or just fucking stupid (intellectually lazy). That is the assumed baseline, any non-pointless discussion has to be about value-added craziness/stupidity on top of that.

[Phoenix Dark]

I feel like we're discussing different things. My response to GR's post was clearly focused on the idea that there is extremist language/views on both sides, as seen during the Bush years when many on the left went crazy; likewise many in the right are going crazy now.

We all agree that the right wing spreads nonsense more effectively, more rapidly, and in higher concentrations.  I don't think the left fails at it for lack of trying - there were plenty of anti Bush chain mails in the aughts. But it's always going to be easier to boogeyman the government than oil men and corporations. Like wise the black guy with the funny name is gonna be the target of very ugly fud that resonates with a largely older audience.

I took his post to mean when liberals attack, they get some basic facts right whereas the right is just way off in crazy land. So yeah, that's where the confusion and disagreement is.

[Mandark]

Discussion of any contentious topic on the internet - political, technical or whatever - is going to involve a lot of shit from all sides (+ linkbaiting pundits in between) that is fucking crazy and/or just fucking stupid (intellectually lazy). That is the assumed baseline, any non-pointless discussion has to be about value-added craziness/stupidity on top of that.

Yep.

[ToxicAdam]

With the two party system, you basically only have to convince your faithful (and fence sitters) that the other side is [blank]. So you just scour the country for news stories, interviews,  proposals, quotes that continually reinforce those ideas. There has been entire networks of media built on this and more and more people seem comfortable to get all their information through these channels.

Humans are xenophobic by nature, so if you can successfully 'other' the opposing party, you have a clan member for life. That's what makes politics so gross to me, it's mostly about playing upon people's weaknesses in order to get votes. There's really no new ideas.

[AdmiralViscen]

You want a serious discussion or you just want internet thrust-and-parry?  Cause I'm down for either but I gotta know what to spec for.

Serious discussion. Real talk. I don't think I'm out of bounds here. It's true Clinton and Obama faced a shit ton of FUD from a rather well oiled outrage machine. My only point is that Bush dealt with a lot of nonsense from the left as well. And I readily admit that  we didn't see mainstream elected democrats participate in shit like this - ie giving credence to the most gutter shit for votes.

Was the government shut down under Bush? Was he impeached? The worst he got was bumper stickers saying "When Bush lied people died"

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I know they will be loath to admit it but GAF != mainstream Democratic politics

I know there was a very vocal subset there that would blame Bush for things that weren't even tangentially related to anything he did, however, that really didn't creep into the mainstream Democratic party.  The GOP however, even prominent Republicans, embraced what used to be embraced by freepers, dark corners of LGF, etc. especially after 2008.  I don't think the two are relatable.

Although if Romney wins (lulz), I would expect that hot button issues under Bush but continued under Obama, such as holding suspected terrorists indefinitely, to suddenly be relevant and discussed again now that the President isn't "their guy."

[Great Rumbler]

What I meant with my post is that Fox News is gutter scum.

[Human Snorenado]

Final dagger in the "we're talking about two different things here" argument with PD- I just saw someone use "trickle down government" in an argument on fb.  The Right Wing Noise Machine works, which is why it's so objectionable.  There's nothing institutionalized like it on the left.  If you keep trying to argue your point, you're just trollin.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Looks like the last debate is tomorrow.  This one should be the most interesting because Romney has to kill it just to be competitive in the final stretch.  So he can be either total shitballs insane as he claws for a couple more points to try to turn Ohio around or he will try to tone it down versus his last debate's performance.

[TakingBackSunday]

I just can't fathom Obama losing in a debate that is absolutely his bread and butter from his first term.  Iraq = done, Afghanistan = ending, Iran = negotiations beginning, Osama bin Laden = dead.  Libya is a hiccup but nothing near the disaster the republicans are tying to frame it, like the Carter fiasco.

[AdmiralViscen]

Looks like the last debate is tomorrow.  This one should be the most interesting because Romney has to kill it just to be competitive in the final stretch.  So he can be either total shitballs insane as he claws for a couple more points to try to turn Ohio around or he will try to tone it down versus his last debate's performance.

I wouldn't go that far. If a handful of swing states go the wrong way Romney can still put this one away.

[Brehvolution]

Looks like the last debate is tomorrow.  This one should be the most interesting because Romney has to kill it just to be competitive in the final stretch.  So he can be either total shitballs insane as he claws for a couple more points to try to turn Ohio around or he will try to tone it down versus his last debate's performance.

I wouldn't go that far. If a handful of swing states go the wrong way Romney can still put this one away.

Obama has a team that watches fox news 24/7(or they sub-contract the work out to The Daily Show's team). They know everything he's gonna say.
Then again, McCain had god tier levels of FP experience over Obama and it didn't change anything.

[AdmiralViscen]

Looks like the last debate is tomorrow.  This one should be the most interesting because Romney has to kill it just to be competitive in the final stretch.  So he can be either total shitballs insane as he claws for a couple more points to try to turn Ohio around or he will try to tone it down versus his last debate's performance.

I wouldn't go that far. If a handful of swing states go the wrong way Romney can still put this one away.

Obama has a team that watches fox news 24/7(or they sub-contract the work out to The Daily Show's team). They know everything he's gonna say.
Then again, McCain had god tier levels of FP experience over Obama and it didn't change anything.

I'm not saying Obama won't win the debate, I'm saying Romney doesn't have to kill it to win, or even be competitive. He is already competitive.

[Oblivion]

Holy shit, David Gregory must have been looking at naked pics of Soledad O'Brien or something, cause he actually asked a great question today:

http://readingisforsnobs.blogspot.com/2012/10/david-gregory-wins-award-for-best.html

I've been waiting for someone, ANYONE in the mainstream media to point this shit out.

[Barry Egan]

Looks like the last debate is tomorrow.  This one should be the most interesting because Romney has to kill it just to be competitive in the final stretch.  So he can be either total shitballs insane as he claws for a couple more points to try to turn Ohio around or he will try to tone it down versus his last debate's performance.

I wouldn't go that far. If a handful of swing states go the wrong way Romney can still put this one away.

Obama has a team that watches fox news 24/7(or they sub-contract the work out to The Daily Show's team). They know everything he's gonna say.
Then again, McCain had god tier levels of FP experience over Obama and it didn't change anything.

I'm not saying Obama won't win the debate, I'm saying Romney doesn't have to kill it to win, or even be competitive. He is already competitive.

Yea, Romney is now within the MoE in every swing state.  Nowadays what gives me hope is Obama's exceptional ground game and the unaccounted for Latinos Who Dont Take Poll Calls But Still Votes Democrat on Election Day that Nate Silver talked up a couple weeks ago.  Which basically puts me in the same category as the conservative belief in a Silent Majority, I realize.

[ToxicAdam]

Obama/Biden are blitzing Ohio with visits this week and the Romney camp has none scheduled ...

[Phoenix Dark]

[Dickie Dee]

pronounced downward trend

[Howard Alan Treesong]

Barry, as mentioned I put my faith not just in Ohio but in Ohio Early Voting which is tantamount to putting your faith in tachyon-driven time travel ballots. OBAMA'S VICTORY WILL COME FROM BEFORE THE FIRST DEBATE

[ToxicAdam]

Obama wins by 3.5 percentage points and 52 electoral votes. That's my official prediction.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

I'm guessing 2.5 and 45.

[Great Rumbler]

I'm guessing 10.5 and 250.

[Mr. Gundam]

I'm going to a conference for work today in Corvalis, OR and will be staying at a hotel with a coworker. I have no clue about his political leanings, but I really want to watch the debate tonight. Might just sit at a bar somewhere and watch it.

[Brehvolution]

Alcohol and politics sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Phoenix Dark]

2% popular vote margin
Obama 303-235 (Obama wins co, ia, va, oh, nh; loses fl and nc)

[TakingBackSunday]

My predictions have ultimately remained unchanged since september, for the most part.  The states that were already pretty close and hard for Obama to win just got even harder and more likely for Romney, that's all.  VA, FL, and CO.  But Obama remains strong in OH, WI, NV, and relatively strong in IO thanks to early voting.  I could see Obama even snagging VA and Romney swiping CO, but I think in terms of likelihood:

1) Obama wins OH, NH, WI, IO, CO, and NV -- that's 290
2) Obama wins OH, NH, WI, IO, VA, and NV -- that's 294
3) Obama wins OH, NH, WI, IO, VA, NV, AND CO -- that's 303
4) Obama wins OH, NH, WI, IO and NV only -- he's still at 281

the worries about NH are mostly noise that happens every four years.  mumblemumble rich white men mumblemumble, it still breaks blue when it has to.

I'm going with Bams - 290, Romney - 248..

[Steve Contra]

Alcohol and politics sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Alcohol, politics and work.  He should slip in a few religious references during the debate as well.

[Van Cruncheon]

i'm predicting a romney win

[TakingBackSunday]

no you're not

[Barry Egan]

Drinky must rub elbows with the hyper-functional Fuck You, Got Mine demo every day, it wouldn't surprise me if his particular gestalt leads him to conclude a Romney victory

[Great Rumbler]

Drinky is part of the 1%.

[Joe Molotov]

I'm predicting a Ron Paul win, he's got top secret electors in the EC, believe.

[Human Snorenado]

This is kind of where I'm at.

http://www.270towin.com/2012_election_predictions.php?mapid=NQO

Although every day something else happens that freaks me the fuck out.  Today, it's TPM moving PA to a swing state.  I looked at the polls and can't really figure out why, though.