Phil Fish (Compare your life to mine and then kill yourself :drops mic)

[Cerveza mas fina]

Japanese games suck and should get with the times. Here is a level from my smash indie hit

[Cerveza mas fina]

 

[fistfulofmetal]

Well again, I don't care about if they are good at making games or not. It's irrelevant to what's being said. If the criticism is valid and the points back up the claim, his own skills at making game shouldn't matter. Separating the man from the products is a problem for a lot of people clearly. I find it silly and pointless.

[brob]

your argument is too soft Soulburn. Braid is a puzzle game. You can jump n shit, but it's hardly a platformer. The story is often criticized, but it's the puzzling that's held up as what makes Braid a good game. Also the crux of Blow's argument is that games are babby and hold your hand too much. Obviously this occurs in western games as well, but it's unfair to paint Blow's own games with that brush as his core philosophy in making games is to take the audience's intelligence seriously. 

And I don't think Blow is "supposed to be some "I'm a genius and my games are art" pretentious douche who's always there to fucking shit on everyone else's games and talk up his". Rather he speaks his mind and aspires to make things that are non-perfunctory, but he doesn't go around talking about how big of a cock he has and how everyone else are assholes for him to fuck ala Fish. You can even see it in the video were Fish is shitting on the japanese dude, Blow makes a proper effort to stop Fish's ridicule and answer his question.

[Cerveza mas fina]

How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

[fistfulofmetal]

@Bro, I was going to discuss Braid in relation to his criticism but I haven't really played it so I can't speak with any authority against it. But thanks for that post since my perception of Braid is that it's a puzzle game that forces the player to figure stuff out without spelling out game mechanics... which is exactly what he was speaking against in the video.

[Rufus]

Furthermore it would mean by extension that anyone who hasn't made a game can't critizise games either, which is bollocks. If you can make a case for why something is bad then the argument stands on its own.
But I guess it's far more important to be popular and argue well than it is to just argue well. Which is also why modern politics are a crock of shit, all in all.

[frod]

Fez was a videogame I enjoyed playing through. Pretty rare these days.

[Human Snorenado]

I don't really give a fuck about the person behind the game. Is the game good? Yes? awesome, I'll play. No? awesome, I'm not gonna play.

Buncha weirdos basing their opinions on some personality bullshit like it really matters.

meh I disagree.  I find that in art sometimes the annoying parts of peoples personalities come out. I cant listen to music by Eminem or The Game because I hate the fuck out of them.  On the other hand I can tolerate Wagner and Burzum's racism etc because the music is good enough. Its a fine balance and seemingly doesnt apply to most games but I find that it becomes more relevant with smaller personal projects or games that are more aggressively trying to be art. This is one of those games.

Yeah, for me this argument is perfectly presented with the curious modern case of Troy Duffy and Boondock Saints.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overnight

Basically, someone with no real formal training sells a script, gets to direct his movie, his band will provide the soundtrack and get a recording deal, and oh yeah bro- Harvey Weinstein is gonna buy the bar you work at and let you run it!  F'realz.

Shockingly, dude turns out to be a colossal, egomaniacal prick that burns every bridge he comes to, often before he's even able to cross it.  It's everyone's fault but his, obviously.  OBVIOUSLY.

...also, Boondock Saints sucks.

[brob]

I was mostly directing shit Fish, but Blow annoys me at times as well.

I've played and beat Braid, so I understand how it's more of a puzzle game. But it still is mid-tier IMO. I loved it when I first played, went back to it and thought it was overrated.

EDIT: I usually ignore how bad a person or his viewpoints are if I enjoy their music/movies/videogames/etc. But if a dude is everywhere criticizing everything like a Phil Fish, then I have every right to write him and his opinions off.

So your argument is that Blow shouldn't voice negative opinions about other games because he made a mid-tier game? Because that's annoying?

[Human Snorenado]

I think what most people who find Blow annoying think is that he should maybe make a few more games (and maybe some better ones) before he tries to brosplain game developing to everyone.

[brob]

Blow has been giving seminars and writing about games for longer than he has made games. Anyway, I think people's opinion on Blow is often largely based on press writers asking him questions and presenting his opinions as if he showed up at the town square and started shouting and I have a hard time blaming Blow for that.

[Brehvolution]

 

[Lucretius]

I think what most people who find Blow and Fish annoying think is that they should maybe make a few more games (and maybe some better ones and ones that don't have game breaking bugs that they refuse to fix) before he tries to brosplain game developing to everyone.

Fixed it

[Shaka Khan]

I'm trying to decide whether to blame the media or Blow/Fish Re: vocalness vs. number of games developed. Going into the next generation, both crazy fankids and websites relying on their clicks are just looking for the most potent ammo and they found plenty in those guys' repertoire.

[brob]

Blow has been giving seminars and writing about games for longer than he has made games. Anyway, I think people's opinion on Blow is often largely based on press writers asking him questions and presenting his opinions as if he showed up at the town square and started shouting and I have a hard time blaming Blow for that.

Maybe so. And yes, I might be jumping the gun on Blow when it comes to that.

All I'm saying is I can agree with the opinions of people I dislike and think are assholes, or people who have no skill or ability whatsoever in whatever we are talking about cause that doesn't mean they can't make valid points. What I am saying is at some point the amount of shit you talk will be measured up to your own results if all you do is talk shit, and that's certainly why I write off the Phil Fish of the world and won't pick up their games.

Phil Fish has never given a well reasoned opinion on anything as far as I've heard, so I don't care about him. Blow's criticisms against the babbying of games is very fair and the games he makes fundamentally opposes such design. So it seems feeble of you to ignore his arguments "whether it's valid or not" - when he has a pretty decent pedigree in games criticism and when he actually made a game he stuck to his principles and was successful at it. I didn't like the few minutes I spent with Braid, but I respect his efforts.

[Stoney Mason]

Blow and Fish get a lot of shit because they've each made one well known game but each seem to have an opinion about nearly everything going on in the industry and how things should be. There are people who have been in the industry for nearly their entire adult life and don't have that sort of arrogance.

Like I said earlier, personally it doesn't overly bother me. Strong Opinions are fine. People certainly have them on this forum for instance. But when you want to be treated as a professional there is a certain way of going about that. And they seem to struggle with it. Fish clearly more so.

[Human Snorenado]

Blow has been giving seminars and writing about games for longer than he has made games. Anyway, I think people's opinion on Blow is often largely based on press writers asking him questions and presenting his opinions as if he showed up at the town square and started shouting and I have a hard time blaming Blow for that.

So, he's some sort of authority about games, yet has only managed to shit out one average, derivative puzzler and a Myst clone.  Dude is SO FUCKING AWESOME AND HIS OPINIONS ARE SO VALID.  You're totes right.

[Human Snorenado]

For the record, I actually agree with Blow about a lot of what he says, and share many of his opinions!  Yet, and this part is likely to make heads 'asplode coming from me... HE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SUCH A RAGING CUNT ABOUT IT.  If your goal is to have an honest discussion about a subject and change people's opinion to your way of thinking, how you present your argument has a HUGE amount of importance.  Blow fails spectacularly in that regard.  It's almost like his goal is to actually talk about Jonathan Blow and be a raging cunt.

Phil Fish is just fucking insane, in comparison.

[chronovore]

I liked Braid just fine, and Blow's reasonable answers to the proffered question were clearly based in strong opinions but stated with a modicum of respect.

I'm willing to go with Brobzoid's statement that Blow's interview responses are not the same as standing on a street corner and bellowing capital-T "Truths." At worst, Blow is a theorist who has at least shipped something innovative, and is overly impressed with himself for it. Or is someone going to bring up Blinx?

Fish can DIAF.

[Rufus]

So, he's some sort of authority about games, yet has only managed to shit out one average, derivative puzzler and a Myst clone.  Dude is SO FUCKING AWESOME AND HIS OPINIONS ARE SO VALID.  You're totes right.

Don't be such a fuckhead COG. WTF kind of reasoning is that? Making a game means his opinions are worth even less than that of any random shmoe? Fuck off.

[fistfulofmetal]

I just don't see what about Blow is making people say he's a cunt? He's a calm and reasonable person. Yeah, he's one of those pie in the sky types like Molyneux but there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. I've never seen him say anything without backing it up with an explanation.

[hampster]

I keep getting Jonathan Blow confused with Jonathan Mak

I never hear Mak's opinion on stuff. Guess he's too busy making awesome games
Everyday Shooter Sound Shapes

[fistfulofmetal]

Eschaton and I made pretty much the same exact post with almost the same exact wording.

[Stoney Mason]

I guess for me the comparison would be Markus Persson who would be the indie god that most people don't hate. You don't see tons of people hating on notch because while I'm sure he has opinions on lots of things and has created a game with a bigger cultural impact than Braid and Fez by a great magnitude, you don't get the sense the guy is constantly telling you how it is.

And maybe his role is less of a critic role while Fish and Blow seem to embrace the critic role.

You need critics. But you also need people who just do the work and let the public decide.

[Rufus]

I guess for me the comparison would be Markus Persson who would be the indie god that most people don't hate. You don't see tons of people hating on notch because while I'm sure he has opinions on lots of things and has created a game with a bigger cultural impact than Braid and Fez by a great magnitude, you don't get the sense the guy is constantly telling you how it is.

And maybe his role is less of a critic role while Fish and Blow seem to embrace the critic role.

You need critics. But you also need people who just do the work and let the public decide.

Notch either doesn't get asked for comment or refuses to offer comment more often. He is (or was) plenty vocal on Twitter. I remember him putting his foot in his mouth a couple times, not nescessarily about game's industry issues, but he did get a LOT of flak on occasion, which might be why we don't hear a whole lot of him any more.

If you want to listen what it's like to hear people constantly tell how it is, go anywhere on the internet. You'll find it here. In audio form even! I don't see how it's different coming from Blow, besides the amount of attention that's focused on him and others when they do it.

I honestly think the hang-up people have with Blow is that he has the audacity to be vocal while not making a (series of) near perfect games. I just don't get that attitude. You might have to earn the public's sympathies to get their ear, but you can speak sense without it. I can sympathize with the emotional response to preaching, but don't try and wrap your dislike into logic and pass it off as a more sensible opinion than it actually is.

And you have PLENTY of people who just do their work. So why shit on the few people that don't? Unless you actually want every creator to just shut the fuck up and keep their head down I don't see how some vocal developer-critic hybrids can be this upsetting.

For the record, I actually agree with Blow about a lot of what he says, and share many of his opinions!  Yet, and this part is likely to make heads 'asplode coming from me... HE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SUCH A RAGING CUNT ABOUT IT.

I guess I must have missed those episodes then.
The only thing that stands out to me as spectacularly bad was the coverage on the 1UP Show. That was framed and executed in the most ball-washing, "start of a new era"-wankery kind of way that it was too hard to watch. Ranks among the top 5 of 1UP proxy shame fests, along with their LBP coverage and the GTAIV "why this is nothing but a 10/10" round table.

[Shaka Khan]

Eschaton and I made pretty much the same exact post with almost the same exact wording.

Why don't you guys blow each other at the back of you van?!

[magus]

For the record, I actually agree with Blow about a lot of what he says, and share many of his opinions!  Yet, and this part is likely to make heads 'asplode coming from me... HE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE SUCH A RAGING CUNT

 

[fistfulofmetal]

Eschaton and I made pretty much the same exact post with almost the same exact wording.

Why don't you guys blow each other at the back of you van?!

  black men

[brob]

smh fistful

he's brown

[fistfulofmetal]

I'll be totes honest. I have no idea if he's black or not. I just assume because I'm prejudicial.

[thisismyusername]

Blow has been giving seminars and writing about games for longer than he has made games. Anyway, I think people's opinion on Blow is often largely based on press writers asking him questions and presenting his opinions as if he showed up at the town square and started shouting and I have a hard time blaming Blow for that.

It certainly doesn't help when writers fellate him as some sort of high-class artist and has an entire article about philosophy with him or something.

I forget what site or magazine wrote that but it was so 

[Stoney Mason]

Blow has been giving seminars and writing about games for longer than he has made games. Anyway, I think people's opinion on Blow is often largely based on press writers asking him questions and presenting his opinions as if he showed up at the town square and started shouting and I have a hard time blaming Blow for that.

It certainly doesn't help when writers fellate him as some sort of high-class artist and has an entire article about philosophy with him or something.

I forget what site or magazine wrote that but it was so 

I would categorize this more as a media problem but yeah certainly part of the backlash is certainly due to the inordinate amount of press both receive. They both have come to represent the indie movement which is the current hot topic in gaming.

And it was the Atlantic.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/the-most-dangerous-gamer/308928/

[Huff]

Thought blow sounded pretty interesting and put together on the giant bomb e3. Couldn't really get into braid though. Maybe I'm just too dumb.

Therefore blow>blow

[Lucretius]

(Image removed from quote.)

Hideki Kamiya
Arthur to Astaroth no Nazomakaimura: Incredible Toons
Resident Evil
Resident Evil 2
Devil May Cry
Resident Evil Zero
Viewtiful Joe
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trials and Tribulations
Viewtiful Joe 2
Viewtiful Joe: Double Trouble!
Okami
Bayonetta
The Wonderful 101
Bayonetta 2

Phil Fish
Fez (still not adequately patched on 360)

[Lucretius]

I do have to concede that Blow generally seems reasonable compared to Fish.

[brob]

I would categorize this more as a media problem but yeah certainly part of the backlash is certainly due to the inordinate amount of press both receive. They both have come to represent the indie movement which is the current hot topic in gaming.

And it was the Atlantic.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/the-most-dangerous-gamer/308928/

I think the enthusiast press really really wants prominent creators to exist because it adds credence to the idea that video games are creative expressions and that the industry has merit beyond being children's entertainment, time-wasters and stress-relievers.

[thisismyusername]

Kamiya didn't create Resident Evil. He may have had a hand in it, but why is it a major highlight on that list?  2 he was a producer of, so that can stay.

[demi]

He only voiced Godot in Trials and Tribulations too, lol

Cmon Lucretius

[Stoney Mason]

I dont see anything wrong with guys like Blow either, infact I wish the creators of games like Amnesia, Chivalry, FTL, Dear Esther type indie games would speak up a little more... but it seems you gotta be a console dev to make real noise....

What do you think this speaking up that they should do would achieve? That is rather than letting the work speak for itself which it is already doing. I don't understand this idea. These people often have personal blogs or give post mortems or design talks already in places like gamasutra.

[brob]

Esch, the Amnesia developers actually do write a fair bit about other games, trends, game design and other things on their blog.

http://frictionalgames.blogspot.se/

[Stoney Mason]

Esch, the Amnesia developers actually do write a fair bit about other games and trends and such on their blog.

http://frictionalgames.blogspot.se/

Lots of people do. Gamers by and large just don't care. Actual real game dev talk is generally much different than what happens when Blow or Fish make the blogs.

[Tasty]

Frictional

[Cerveza mas fina]

Wait I just read that Fish has quit the gaming industry.

Drama queen

[brob]

Esch, the Amnesia developers actually do write a fair bit about other games and trends and such on their blog.

http://frictionalgames.blogspot.se/

Lots of people do. Gamers by and large just don't care. Actual real game dev talk is generally much different than what happens when Blow or Fish make the blogs.

I was a bit surprised when Frictional's post about Dead Space 2 (which offered a very negative and strong opinion) didn't kick off some shit-tossing on forums.

http://frictionalgames.blogspot.no/2011/02/thoughts-on-dead-space-2.html

[Human Snorenado]

So, he's some sort of authority about games, yet has only managed to shit out one average, derivative puzzler and a Myst clone.  Dude is SO FUCKING AWESOME AND HIS OPINIONS ARE SO VALID.  You're totes right.

Don't be such a fuckhead COG. WTF kind of reasoning is that? Making a game means his opinions are worth even less than that of any random shmoe? Fuck off.

I don't think it's fuckheadish to expect someone who is supposedly such an authority on games that he gets to give lectures about how to make them to have produced something better than Braid, especially when he comes across as a condescending douchecanoe.

Calling him a raging cunt is probably overstating things, but as someone else said, he's big on the whole "games as art" mindset, and we all know where I stand on that.

[brob]

I feel like I often see articles that are fair, well written, respectful and correct (imo) get turned into ammo for forum shit tossing contests, but maybe I'm being overly cynical.

[Joe Molotov]

Wait I just read that Fish has quit the gaming industry.

Drama queen

For today.

[Rufus]

I don't think it's fuckheadish to expect someone who is supposedly such an authority on games that he gets to give lectures about how to make them to have produced something better than Braid, especially when he comes across as a condescending douchecanoe.

Calling him a raging cunt is probably overstating things, but as someone else said, he's big on the whole "games as art" mindset, and we all know where I stand on that.

He didn't take that supposed authority all by himself and I don't think he's held any editors at gunpoint for an interview either. There are enough people, in the press especially, who grant and ascribe authority to him willingly, along with a platform to speak. Maybe he's more eager than average to take the opportunity, more convinced of his opinions and speaks openly about what he sees as problems in the industry. Maybe he does get an undue amount of attention. Lay that at his (and the media's) feet, fine.

But as Brob has said, what he critizises in other games he avoided in Braid, so he sticks to his convictions at least. That it wasn't the second coming or that inane details of its design won't fill shitty trivia threads in 20 years' time like Super Mario and the like do is besides the point.

I feel like I often see articles that are fair, well written, respectful and correct (imo) get turned into ammo for forum shit tossing contests, but maybe I'm being overly cynical.

Maybe, but that's my impression as well. All it takes is one phrase to start a shitstorm, with or without context.

There's also a tendency to repeat stories, because they're automatic winners as far as clicks and attention go. "Again, [xy] said something" because it's like a continuation of a familiar story. Eventually that's all they're now for and it becomes a running joke, like Molyneux's out there verbal fumblings about imaginary features. Applies any entity, really. "A new Edge is out. Behold these low numbers!"

[brob]

I remember liking this skype interview Destructoid did with Blow. I also remember the interviewer being a bit obnoxious with his open fawning, but he doesn't pull his dick out or anything so it's not that much of a hassle.

[Lucretius]

He only voiced the coolest character in the coolest series ever.

Cmon Lucretius

Fixed

[Himu]

(Image removed from quote.)

Kamiya lookin a little

[demi]

He only voiced the coolest character in the coolest series ever.

Cmon Lucretius

Fixed

[Himu]

I dont see anything wrong with guys like Blow either, infact I wish the creators of games like Amnesia, Chivalry, FTL, Dear Esther type indie games would speak up a little more... but it seems you gotta be a console dev to make real noise....

What do you think this speaking up that they should do would achieve? That is rather than letting the work speak for itself which it is already doing.

open discussion about games development... which I think is healthy as long as egos stay in check. Not just for the sake of getting other people to reexamine their work, but also because I and many others find that commentary very interesting
....

Check out Zeboyd Games entries about rpg design.

http://zeboyd.com/category/development/

[Human Snorenado]

I dont see anything wrong with guys like Blow either, infact I wish the creators of games like Amnesia, Chivalry, FTL, Dear Esther type indie games would speak up a little more... but it seems you gotta be a console dev to make real noise....

What do you think this speaking up that they should do would achieve? That is rather than letting the work speak for itself which it is already doing.

open discussion about games development... which I think is healthy as long as egos stay in check. Not just for the sake of getting other people to reexamine their work, but also because I and many others find that commentary very interesting
....

Check out Zeboyd Games entries about rpg design.

http://zeboyd.com/category/development/

They also have a pretty interesting take on this whole situation

http://zeboyd.com/2013/07/29/there-is-no-internet-war-on-creatives/

IMAGINE THAT

[brob]

if we're posting random musings from developers Imma throw this one from Kayin (I Wanna Be The Guy) out too

http://kayin.pyoko.org/?p=2501

[Human Snorenado]

if we're posting random musings from developers Imma throw this one from Kayin (I Wanna Be The Guy) out too

http://kayin.pyoko.org/?p=2501

Since Phil’s departer from game design

...Arvie is a developer???   

[magus]

this thread ->

[Himu]

this thread ->

STOP STEALING ROB VAN DAM'S SHIT



ROB

VAN

DAMME

[Rufus]

They also have a pretty interesting take on this whole situation

http://zeboyd.com/2013/07/29/there-is-no-internet-war-on-creatives/

IMAGINE THAT

Although I'm willing to bet that Fish is simply incapable of just walking away. From internet drama at least.

if we're posting random musings from developers Imma throw this one from Kayin (I Wanna Be The Guy) out too

http://kayin.pyoko.org/?p=2501

Why be Phil Fish when you can be Jonathan Blow instead? Why be Phil Fish when you can be Edmund McMillen and Tommy Refenes? Why be Phil when you can be Bennett Foddy or Doug Wilson? Cactus, Rorher, Auntie fucking Pixelante? Why not be Konjak, or Derek Yu… Pixel or Niffles? Why not be DanC, or Chris Hecker? Why not be Terry Cavanagh? He has a great accent! Why not be Jenova Chen? Hell, why aim small. Why not be Hideo Kojima, a Hidetaka Miyazaki, or a Hideki Kamiya? Why not more of whatever you are? Just try not to be a dick!