Author Topic: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics  (Read 1867051 times)

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Fragamemnon

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Is the GOP's core health care argument going to be that people actually like their health care coverage (and don't want any changes) now that there's an option out there that is scored up to be very affordable?

I mean, I have great employer coverage but I detest it. Mostly because it is tied to my employment, and somewhat because I know that if there was a medical calamity in the household I'd still probably be out tens of thousands of dollars after all the dust settled.
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The Fake Shemp

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Health insurance should not be a cash cow.
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Brehvolution

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Health insurance should not be a cash cow.

Because?
Because profiting off the illness of others is morally reprehensible. Denying care is even worse.
©ZH

Mandark

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Health insurance should not be a cash cow.
Because?

Because they're rent-seekers.

The profit motive doesn't drive them to innovate or improve services, products, or delivery.  It makes them seek out clients who will pay more in premiums than they use in coverage.

The failings of the human body being what they are, that means seeking out the young and healthy while denying coverage to the old and sick, ie those who need it.  Individual insurance markets are a nightmare for anyone over 40 whose patient history isn't up to David Dunn's standard.

The only way to keep those people covered is through pooling.  So you get things like fraternal insurance and later health care through employers.  But that puts small businesses at a disadvantage, and the big companies only play along thanks to federal subsidies or union pressure.

A purely free market system of health insurance based on individual negotiation would be dysfunctional, with tons of people lacking coverage and companies heading into adverse selection death spirals.

If you want to argue that private insurance is the only moral choice because we've all been gifted with the Natural Rights to Contract and Property by YHWH or Equivalent, by all means go ahead.  "It's so terrible that things are this bad, but we have to stick to our principles."  Something like that.

But this is one area where you can't argue the power of the market, where self-interest doesn't translate to more efficient results.  The market outcome is worse than the social democratic one by any criteria.  That's just how it is.

The Fake Shemp

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Well said.

Also, nice Unbreakable reference!
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The Fake Shemp

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[youtube=560,345]iPF9-o-YHGM[/youtube]

:lol
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The Fake Shemp

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There's a difference between making living wages equal to your peers and the quality of health provided, and getting rich off of the health of others.

The latter is morally reprehensible.  If you can't see that, then there's probably no hope for you.
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The Fake Shemp

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Again, you're talking about practitioners and not health insurance companies.  As stated, nobody is really against medical physicians making a wage from practicing.

But health insurance companies, health care manufacturers and suppliers have been price gouging the average American for decades.  It's not only morally reprehensible - it isn't even sustainable!

I know some conservatives quote the party line that the world's elite and wealthy come to our country for the best medical care and that in itself should highlight the problem here.
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Mandark

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It makes sense for practitioners, along with pharma researchers and equipment makers, to have some kind of profit motive.  You want a certain amount of doctors, along with improving drugs and machines.

But the incentives aren't necessarily aligned for better care or cost control.  That's why you get physicians behaving like they were in that Atul Gawande article Prole posted a while back, drug companies making superfluous changes to their more profitable molecules, and a shrinking pool of overworked general practitioners.

This just isn't the Econ 101 widget economy.

The Fake Shemp

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Chris Matthews is tearing apart of this Congressman who is co-sponsoring a bill to make Presidential nominees provide proof of American citizenship on Hardball.

:rofl :rofl :rofl

I can't wait 'till this gets uploaded on Huffington Post - this guy is rambling incoherently! :lol
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Phoenix Dark

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but that birth certificate was made in 2001!

010

Van Cruncheon

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HOW CAN A BLACK MAN BE BORN IN THESE WHITE UNITED STATES. IT IS JUST TOO WEIRD.
duc

Mandark

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The idiocy doesn't even stand out for me in that clip, I'm so numb to it.

What surprises me is how Campbell lets Matthews speak for so long without interrupting or talking over him.  I thought everybody in Congress had been schooled on basic cable etiquette, but he just got steamrolled for a solid minute.


edit:  Okay, watched to the end.  "This bill is not about Barack Obama."  The sheer chutzpah is almost admirable.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 11:22:46 PM by Mandark »

The Fake Shemp

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but that birth certificate was made in 2001!



Hasn't it been verified that Hawaii state officials have the original document in their possession?
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Phoenix Dark

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but that birth certificate was made in 2001!



Hasn't it been verified that Hawaii state officials have the original document in their possession?
stfu

[youtube=560,345]gDlzSQcRoPg[/youtube]
:rock
010

Phoenix Dark

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[youtube=560,345]pMu6wCqdeyQ[/youtube]
no words  :lol
010

Van Cruncheon

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oh sweet god
duc

The Fake Shemp

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Universal healthcare will be the doom of us all!
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Brehvolution

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My take on religo-cons is this:

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Unless he doesn't have good health insurance and gets sick which makes him declare bankruptcy and loses his house. Which then sits on the market for a long time only to be bought at a much lower price which lowers the property value of my house, but fuck 'em.
©ZH

FlameOfCallandor

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I went to a Local Sub place yesterday and I couldn't afford to pay for my lunch so I turned to the guy behind me and told him that it was his responsibility to pay because it would make everyones quality of life better if he bought me lunch because I really needed it.

So really I was doing him a favor.

I'm such a good citizen.  :D

archie4208

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Are you really comparing a sandwich to the health of a human being? ???

FlameOfCallandor

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Are you really comparing a sandwich to the health of a human being? ???

Are you suggesting that I can serve society without food? Shame on you. Why are you so greedy? Stop being selfish and start paying for my lunch.

Kestastrophe

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Because ~60% of personal bankruptcies are caused by sandwich costs  ::) But I guess it all depends on what your definition of "need" is
jon

bachikarn

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It's funny because he thinks he is making a good analogy.

Van Cruncheon

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actually it's not funny, it just shows how libertarians lack a functional amygdala -- it's actual social distinguished mentally-challenged
duc

demi

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:lol i wish healthcare cost the same as a $5 footlong, i really do
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EmCeeGrammar

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I think its a poor analogy because you choose to go into a sub place with no money.  Who chooses to get in a car wreck that mangles their body and requires years of rehabilatation?  This girl I knew at work has faulty ovaries.  She wanted to look into procedures that would help here get preggers.  But her insurance wouldn't cover it because it was a pre-existing condition.  Its a goddam racket.

Lately I've been more receptive to letting some segments of the market being allowed to die for their stupidity and stubborness. Albeit regulation is still needed to protect the average consumer. They don't know how or don't have the time to research every publicly available datapoint about a company or product.

But- the fact that the Medical and Legal practices are profit driven undermines what are basic services necessary for a healthy and productive society.  Some things should not be in the hands of businessmen.
sad

Phoenix Dark

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Good analogy or not, clearly FoC has framed the issue for us.
010

Mandark

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recursive's theory of random conservatarian capitalization strikes again!
« Reply #4590 on: July 22, 2009, 11:54:53 PM »
I went to a Local Sub place yesterday and I couldn't afford to pay for my lunch so I turned to the guy behind me and told him that it was his responsibility to pay because it would make everyones quality of life better if he bought me lunch because I really needed it.

So really I was doing him a favor.

I'm such a good citizen.  :D

Wait.  You're still young.

Over the course of your lifetime, what percentage of your food have you paid for?  Your clothes?  Your education?

No way the answer to any of those is even half.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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I'll LOL if FOC is on welfare a few years from now.
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The Fake Shemp

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Did he really compare healthcare to Subway?!
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Van Cruncheon

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you have no actual rights, period, save what society -- and by extension, the government -- choose to grant you, so your whole line of reasoning is moot
duc

FlameOfCallandor

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you have no actual rights, period, save what society -- and by extension, the government -- choose to grant you, so your whole line of reasoning is moot


FlameOfCallandor

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We've come so far as a human race and yet liberals think we still live under mob rule and not the rule of law.


Dickie Dee

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smh
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Van Cruncheon

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so who gives these rights that others must respect

if they are invisible and have no clear manifestation, i presume i must simply believe they exist, and that we must all share in that belief

this is sounding a lot like religion to me
duc

Dickie Dee

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No, at least religion contains some supernatural being for folks to hide behind to give them innate rights.

Lolbertopians are just weirdos that wish to demand certain innate things ipso facto.
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Van Cruncheon

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magical thinking is magical!
duc

Fragamemnon

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manacint- they always have Supply Side Jesus to believe in. And they have also canonized Milton Friedman, whose ideas have now thankfully relegated to the ash pile of history.

hex

Dickie Dee

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Don't forget St. Reagan!
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Van Cruncheon

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really. what are these rights.

(i'd argue YOU have no place discussing rights until you've read locke and rousseau for a nice compare and contrast, which may help you break out of your magical thinking)

duc

Van Cruncheon

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"If you take the tack that they don't exist at all, the word should never cross your lips and you have no real argument for intervening in healthcare, to boot."

possibly the stupidest thing ever said in the endless internet natural rights vs social contracts debate
duc

The Fake Shemp

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I am pretty sure since our founding fathers had wooden teeth and used leeches that modern healthcare didn't cross their mind as a right at the creation of our country.
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Phoenix Dark

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Well certainly not for coloreds
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TakingBackSunday

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These "rights" aren't innate and they aren't real.  It's not like we have a "rights" gene in our DNA.  "Human rights" were are ARE created by, duh, humans.  You think back when the Neolithic Age started, humans all of a sudden were like "well shit, that other tribes woman is already taken, guess I'll refrain from taking action..."?  Not until the apostles in early Judaism did the notion of "human rights" get invented.

Human rights don't exist.  They are, though, crucial to humanity's development.
püp

The Fake Shemp

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Here's my solution.

If you do not believe education, healthcare and basic human services are worth pitching in for, we'll jettison you to the moon where you can create a perfect society based on your ideals.
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brawndolicious

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You can't point at some genes and say that they give you certain "human" rights.  You are biologically identical to the mass murderers 5,000 years ago.

The most important step in making civil, democratic societies is the advancement of technology.  Self-preservation is easy today, so now we can focus on making ourselves happier by looking for the most "fair" system possible.  It was Malthus and Darwin that figured out that we still breed more than we can support like any other animal in the evolutionary hope of PHYSICALLY adapting to our habitats, which is what lead to our exponential population growth.

We have a mental control of our society, but there's very little if any sort physical control of our destructive natures.

Anyways yeah..uh, screw health insurance companies.

Van Cruncheon

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really. what are these rights.

(i'd argue YOU have no place discussing rights until you've read locke and rousseau for a nice compare and contrast, which may help you break out of your magical thinking)

You can argue what you like, you're just wrong, and where Locke and Rousseau differ, so is Rousseau.

we need a :hurpdurp emoticon
duc

Van Cruncheon

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Quote from: jaydubya, true believer!
These "rights" aren't innate and they aren't real.  It's not like we have a "rights" gene in our DNA.

No, but due to our biological characteristics (which as I understand are somewhat influenced by our genetics ;)) we do possess them, as would other sapient beings should we ever meet them.

Freedom of, say, expression is as fundamental a property of our existence as being obligate oxygen-breathers.

Quote
"Human rights" were are ARE created by, duh, humans.  You think back when the Neolithic Age started, humans all of a sudden were like "well shit, that other tribes woman is already taken, guess I'll refrain from taking action..."?  Not until the apostles in early Judaism did the notion of "human rights" get invented.

Rights can exist just fine while being routinely violated, or in the absence of a society that protects them; indeed, that is the framework for any sort of moral claim about such situations, or the impetus that drives the formation of a society that actually will protect them.

Quote
Human rights don't exist.  They are, though, crucial to humanity's development.

This is going to end up like a discussion about free will.  Some things simply are, or are not; and then of course there's those things we can't know but it's just objectively better, in a pseudo-Pascal's-wager-sort-of-way, to proceed as if they are.

please prove these "rights" exist

when you're done, please also defend the existence of god in the affirmative
duc

Olivia Wilde Homo

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The Constitution, God's most sacred parchment, proves that these rights are very real.
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Bebpo

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Here's my solution.

If you do not believe education, healthcare and basic human services are worth pitching in for, we'll jettison you to the moon where you can create a perfect society based on your ideals.

Isn't the ocean closer?
They can form the new Atlantis!

...or drown /whistles away

Kestastrophe

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No, but due to our biological characteristics (which as I understand are somewhat influenced by our genetics ;)) we do possess them, as would other sapient beings should we ever meet them.
:teehee
jon

Barry Egan

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You can't point at some genes and say that they give you certain "human" rights.  You are biologically identical to the mass murderers 5,000 years ago.

The most important step in making civil, democratic societies is the advancement of technology.  Self-preservation is easy today, so now we can focus on making ourselves happier by looking for the most "fair" system possible.  It was Malthus and Darwin that figured out that we still breed more than we can support like any other animal in the evolutionary hope of PHYSICALLY adapting to our habitats, which is what lead to our exponential population growth.

We have a mental control of our society, but there's very little if any sort physical control of our destructive natures.

Anyways yeah..uh, screw health insurance companies.

 :dizzy

Mandark

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Well, we got to the inevitable phase of all JD arguments.  How long did that take?  Anyone keeping time?

I'll probably waste a lot of time later writing a Serious Bizness post, but for now all I gotta say is that this

My solution is that if you don't find these truths to be self-evident, you're not part of "We," and as such you're welcome to STFU&GTFO of the nation founded by said "We."

is particularly hilarious.

FlameOfCallandor

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My solution is that if you don't find these truths to be self-evident, you're not part of "We," and as such you're welcome to STFU&GTFO of the nation founded by said "We."

is particularly hilarious.

I think he was specifically replying to willco's comment
Quote
If you do not believe education, healthcare and basic human services are worth pitching in for, we'll jettison you to the moon where you can create a perfect society based on your ideal

Barry Egan

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context matters

context matters?  That's funny.  I thought that as Libertarians we were supposed to remove certain documents from their specific con-text in order to deify them, present them as timeless truths, and sanctimoniously disregard any conflicting information that might serve to oppose those documents as they arise over the course of history.  Help plz, as a Libertarian I get really anxious when presented with ambiguous data.

Barry Egan

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a Post-modernist who espouses authorial intent?  Who?  I'm asking seriously.  Every literary critic I would ever consider post-modernist has veered away from authorial intent, even looking all the way back to the New Critics. 

Also I don't follow political threads so closely that I would know what it is that you've argued in the past.  I don't find it surprising that you advocate for contextual analysis in some places, but my point is that as a Libertarian you must, by necessity, ignore it in others.  Literally every time you espouse "inalienable rights" as the foundation for a political argument, for instance, you've chosen an abstract a-historical principle over the contextual reality of any given situation. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 03:01:33 PM by Chipopo »

brawndolicious

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And then there's the fucktards that try to screw with the meaning of "well-regulated militia..."
well how the fuck do you interpret something as a "militia"?

besides thousands of people die every year from guns that are technologically beyond the scope of anything those wig-heads could imagine.  we have to seriously weigh the pragmatic value of the 2nd amendment and as I see it, that amendment hasn't really been used since the civil war.