Author Topic: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics  (Read 1866611 times)

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Positive Touch

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19140 on: September 27, 2012, 04:28:26 PM »
ROMNEY? HE SUCKS - BAD

yeah this is my new ringtone
pcp

Joe Molotov

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19141 on: September 27, 2012, 04:40:10 PM »
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/akin-mccaskill-wasnt-ladylike-in-debate

During a legitimate debate, a woman's body has a way to shut that whole thing down.
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Oblivion

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19142 on: September 27, 2012, 05:30:50 PM »
Quote from: Chris Rock
Polls getting so bad for Mitt Romney this morning I saw a guy scraping a Romney bumper sticker off his car. It was Paul Ryan. #GOP2012

Human Snorenado

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yar

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19144 on: September 27, 2012, 08:55:10 PM »
If you just can't get enough polling crack, TPM has your back

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/09/the_heat_is_on_2.php?ref=fpblg
yar

Great Rumbler

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19145 on: September 27, 2012, 09:28:54 PM »
Obama is now officially a job creator:

In January 2009, the United States had 133,561,000 total non-farm payrolls. The revised BLS figures put him into positive territory by July 2012, when the number is now deemed to have been 133,631,000.
dog

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19146 on: September 28, 2012, 12:13:25 AM »
Just in time for the first debate over domestic policy!
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Joe Molotov

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19147 on: September 28, 2012, 12:14:33 AM »
I've never heard of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, sounds like some left-wing think tank.
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Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19148 on: September 28, 2012, 12:59:59 AM »
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2012/09/an-essay-only-a-white-person-could-write

Ah yes, another white liberal who speaks for the downtrodden and minorities, citing privilege and luxury, while at the same time single-handedly creating a racial divide for something that never was.

More than that, the article gives off the assumption that because you aren't voting for Obama, you fully support Romney. It even gives off the air that if you're well off, vote for Obama because otherwise you're against abortion, healthcare, and hate the poor! In the comments, the author argues that voting for third party makes your vote really just a sad case of narcissism. I can take issue with Connor not even mentioning Jill Stein in this rant, but it's really hard to fault the message in his article even if it's a one-issue.

The fact that Loomis makes the article title about race - such an impertinence - is the icing on the cake. The fact that Obama has given less funding towards the poor than Bush makes his final quip about "luxuries" and "privilege" even more hilarious and inane.

Loomis tosses the idea of things not being equal between races, especially at the poverty rate but then goes on to make the hypocritical statement that no way a minority couldn't write that, ever. Or hold that position or opinion, ever. It reeks of smug white liberal appeal to being open-minded to people, while at the flip of the hat, making a clear racial division that no non-white person could ever hold. As a non-white, I find it insulting.

Shut the fuck up about race, white people.
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19149 on: September 28, 2012, 01:01:38 AM »
Sorry, I can't stand white liberals who hate themselves. It felt good to get that out.
IYKYK

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19150 on: September 28, 2012, 01:24:19 AM »
We'll stfu about race when you stfu about EVERYTHING.
yar

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19151 on: September 28, 2012, 01:47:44 AM »
There have been a number of posts at LGM recently about the third-party option for disaffected liberals.  Loomis, djw and Lemieux have all posted about it.

And you know, I think Loomis (who's the leftest writer on the site) has a point.  Most of the progressives who plan on not voting for Obama* are privileged white dudes, and that has a lot to do with the way they frame the issue of voting.  They're secure enough from the worst effects of a Republican government that they can afford to vote symbolically.

I think the same effect was pretty prevalent during a lot of the administration's legislative sausage-making.  People with white collar jobs and good healthcare plans saying they should have gone for single-payer come hell or high water, people with job security saying unemployment insurance wasn't worth a temporary extension of the Bush cuts, etc.  Liberals on the Stoller/Taibbi/Greenwald axis, for the most part, are not organizing because they feel directly threatened, but because they are committed to a certain political philosophy, and are generally leading secure enough lives that they can afford politics as a passtime.

That's not to dis middle-class political amateurs; that's basically my tribe.  But I think it really behooves liberals such as myself to remember that the fights are really not about us, they are about the actual effects government can have on people's lives.  If you're gonna vote to make yourself feel better by associating yourself with a person or group you admire, that's your call.  But you don't get to lecture other people about their vote, and you don't get to claim to be some sort of pure True Liberal while turning your back on those less fortunate than yourself.




*Exceptions for people who are in safe states and trying to get the third party of their choice to the 5% threshold or whatever.  We're talking about people like Matt Stoller who argue that the two parties are indistinguishable and that costing Obama the election wouldn't be a bad thing.

Oblivion

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19152 on: September 28, 2012, 08:13:31 AM »
Quote
The Reason-Rupe September 2012 poll includes our favorite ideological questions to differentiate libertarians from liberals and conservatives. Using three questions, we can define libertarians as respondents who believe “the less government the better,” who prefer the “free market” to handle problems, and who want government to “favor no particular set of values.” These fiscally conservative, socially liberal voters represent 20% of the public in the Reason-Rupe poll, in line with previous estimates.

Among these likely libertarian voters, the presidential horserace currently stands:

Romney 77%
Obama 20%

Other 3%

Romney’s share of the libertarian vote represents a high water mark for Republican presidential candidates in recent elections.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/09/28/funny-definition-of-libertarian-you-boys-have-here/

Glad that wasn't my imagination after all.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19153 on: September 28, 2012, 08:37:23 AM »
Most libertarians I've run across on the internet are right wing authoritarians.  Most of them just aren't religious or want to have weed legal.  Quite a bit of them are of the belief that voting for anyone other than a Republican is like casting a vote for a Democrat.
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Joe Molotov

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19154 on: September 28, 2012, 09:52:21 AM »
Bibi says it's time to send a clear message to Iran by drawing a red line on their cartoon bomb.



 :wtf
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Mupepe

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19155 on: September 28, 2012, 10:25:19 AM »
Most libertarians I've met enjoy a subpar understanding of everything they "care" about including foreign policy, economics, history and a vast number of conspiracy theories.  But they're pretty well versed in any and all studies on the benefits of marijuana. 

Eric P

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19156 on: September 28, 2012, 10:36:51 AM »
Have you ever read any Locke on WEED?
Tonya

Mupepe

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19157 on: September 28, 2012, 10:45:39 AM »
Have you ever read any Locke on WEED?
                                                          /
                                                        /
                                                      /

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19158 on: September 28, 2012, 10:47:31 AM »
Most libertarians assume that they won't be the one who sweeps the factory floor for company scrip/5 cents an hour.

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Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19159 on: September 28, 2012, 11:23:57 AM »
There have been a number of posts at LGM recently about the third-party option for disaffected liberals.  Loomis, djw and Lemieux have all posted about it.

And you know, I think Loomis (who's the leftest writer on the site) has a point.  Most of the progressives who plan on not voting for Obama* are privileged white dudes, and that has a lot to do with the way they frame the issue of voting.  They're secure enough from the worst effects of a Republican government that they can afford to vote symbolically.

I think the same effect was pretty prevalent during a lot of the administration's legislative sausage-making.  People with white collar jobs and good healthcare plans saying they should have gone for single-payer come hell or high water, people with job security saying unemployment insurance wasn't worth a temporary extension of the Bush cuts, etc.  Liberals on the Stoller/Taibbi/Greenwald axis, for the most part, are not organizing because they feel directly threatened, but because they are committed to a certain political philosophy, and are generally leading secure enough lives that they can afford politics as a passtime.

That's not to dis middle-class political amateurs; that's basically my tribe.  But I think it really behooves liberals such as myself to remember that the fights are really not about us, they are about the actual effects government can have on people's lives.  If you're gonna vote to make yourself feel better by associating yourself with a person or group you admire, that's your call.  But you don't get to lecture other people about their vote, and you don't get to claim to be some sort of pure True Liberal while turning your back on those less fortunate than yourself.




*Exceptions for people who are in safe states and trying to get the third party of their choice to the 5% threshold or whatever.  We're talking about people like Matt Stoller who argue that the two parties are indistinguishable and that costing Obama the election wouldn't be a bad thing.

The dissonance is that caring about people being killed overseas is equivalent to white people problems according to Loomis. Meanwhile, living in a country that is disaffected from such drone strikes on BROWN PEOPLE and forgiving Obama for it just because OH WELL, ROMNEY WOULD DO IT WORSE is a sum for sum example of first world privilege.

Some other guy on SA said it far better than I ever could:

In other words, we apparently have to forgive Obama for bombing mourners and imprisoning people without trial because there are poor people and people who need abortions here in America. I didn't realize that caring for impoverished Americans and having a sane foreign policy were mutually exclusive. The most glaring problem with Loomis's analysis is that the victims of Obama's foreign policy are about the furthest you can get from privileged white people. On the other hand, supporting a president who kills foreign civilians because he's in a position to make life better for Americans is about the purest expression of first-world, or "white", privilege I can think of.

Given that Loomis probably doesn't have to worry much about extrajudicial assassination or be concerned about having an unwanted drone strike killing kids in his neighborhood, it's a luxury for him to be a lesser-of-evils voter.


Never the mind the mere simple fact that Friedersdorf raises multiple issues, not just the one that Loomis supposes he does. Also, the fact that there are white people not voting for Obama does not really form a solid argument in Loomis' favor.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 11:28:12 AM by Stringer Bell »
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19160 on: September 28, 2012, 11:41:39 AM »
Also, while we're on the subject, it's pretty funny how Democrats have really tried to sweep Obama's covert war crap under the rug.

10 years ago: PRESIDENT BUSH IS A WAR CRIMINAL, HE SHOULD BE IMPEACHED.

Now, after going around congress to bomb the fuck out of whistle blower brown people: OH, WELL, WAR IS JUST LIKE THAT. OKAY?

At the very least, have a bit of consistency with your argument. Especially from the same party who claims to be for tolerance and peace and love.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 11:43:13 AM by Stringer Bell »
IYKYK

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19161 on: September 28, 2012, 12:07:26 PM »
stfu, hippie
yar

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19162 on: September 28, 2012, 12:08:58 PM »
:heartbeat
IYKYK

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19163 on: September 28, 2012, 12:32:15 PM »
Voted early :smug

spoiler (click to show/hide)
For Obama  :o

I was going to vote for Stein but opted not to.  While Iowa is in the bag for Obama, I just wanted to make sure he got it and not Romney.

I still don't buy the cult set stuff that Mandark posted earlier.  While he's done a lot of good things, he's done a lot of bad things, things that would have caused foaming-at-the-mouth outrage had Bush or McCain done it but is spun or glossed over because "he's our guy."  Yep, it was a Not Romney vote, much like how most of the election will turn out.  They will either be voting against Obama or against Romney.
[close]
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Joe Molotov

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19164 on: September 28, 2012, 12:33:10 PM »
I'm pretty sure most Democrats aren't too happy with the whole "kill brown people with flying robots" thing, but they just think it'll be worse with Romney (i.e. full scale war with Iran). Once Mitt the Great is defeated, then we can all go back to being critical of Obama. It's like how everyone forgot how terrible the regular refs are when confronted with the true horror of the scab refs.

also, stfu hippie
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Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19165 on: September 28, 2012, 03:14:08 PM »
Himuro:  That rather misses the point of what I said and the parallel discussion over at LGM and Crooked Timber.

The problem with that SA quote is that the poor brown folks being killed in the tribal regions of Pakistan are fucked regardless of who wins.  By throwing the election to Romney, you're not trading reproductive rights, gay rights, health insurance and economic relief for the poor in order to win a more humane foreign policy.  You're giving those away for nothing.

I remember a friend-of-a-friend on FB saying last year he wasn't going to vote for Obama because he didn't want those drone strikes to be "in his name."  To him it's about exculpating himself, while knowing full well that it won't actually stop or even slow any of the crimes he's allegedly protesting.  And by doing that, he's saying that his own feeling of superiority or innocence is worth more to him than the tangible benefits (relative to Romney, duh) that would come from a second Obama term.

Now if Romney was a Paul-style libertarian who was going to gut the gut the welfare state while retrenching America's global military presence, you might have an interesting dilemma.  That's pretty clearly not the case, though.

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19166 on: September 28, 2012, 03:16:40 PM »
It's too bad Amurica cares more about refs than teachers. :usacry
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Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19167 on: September 28, 2012, 03:24:46 PM »
Himuro:  That rather misses the point of what I said and the parallel discussion over at LGM and Crooked Timber.

The problem with that SA quote is that the poor brown folks being killed in the tribal regions of Pakistan are fucked regardless of who wins.  By throwing the election to Romney, you're not trading reproductive rights, gay rights, health insurance and economic relief for the poor in order to win a more humane foreign policy.  You're giving those away for nothing.

I remember a friend-of-a-friend on FB saying last year he wasn't going to vote for Obama because he didn't want those drone strikes to be "in his name."  To him it's about exculpating himself, while knowing full well that it won't actually stop or even slow any of the crimes he's allegedly protesting.  And by doing that, he's saying that his own feeling of superiority or innocence is worth more to him than the tangible benefits (relative to Romney, duh) that would come from a second Obama term.

Now if Romney was a Paul-style libertarian who was going to gut the gut the welfare state while retrenching America's global military presence, you might have an interesting dilemma.  That's pretty clearly not the case, though.

HE'S MOVING THE OVERTON WINDOW, BRO
yar

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19168 on: September 28, 2012, 03:27:03 PM »
A lot of people talk about voting for "the lesser of two evils" as if it's some unfair burden they bear or some flaw in the system that would be corrected by more parties.

Look, in any democracy you're going to need 50%+1 votes to get a governing caucus.  Does anyone really believe that their first choice candidate, who agrees with them on all the issues they feel are important, is going to realistically also be the first choice of ~70 million other voters, and that there's some cosmic injustice or institutional failure that's presenting this?

Having a share of power in a democracy means ceding a share of power to those with different beliefs and priorities.  In FPTP systems, that basically means two parties which each house pretty large internal coalitions.  With proportional representation, you get a lot of parties that have to negotiate after elections and form alliances.  Which is arguably worse, because the party you supported might wind up in bed with the party you oppose the most (eg the Lib Dems joining the Tory govt in the UK).

The opportunity to, even in a small way, minimize the evil in office is a feature of democracy, not a bug.

Mupepe

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19169 on: September 28, 2012, 03:58:48 PM »
Agreed, Mandark.  Too many people fail to realize how coalitions work in other democracies as well and that our parties are just large coalitions.  I have this argument everytime I hear somebody start talking about the need of a new party to fit their own personal ideologies.  They just don't get that in the end they'll end up in bed with the same group of people anyways most likely.

Dickie Dee

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19170 on: September 28, 2012, 03:59:54 PM »
VOTE SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE PARTY
___

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19171 on: September 28, 2012, 04:10:21 PM »
Mups: I think it's a lot easier to think that the obstacles in the way are just the current set of corrupt pols and parties than it is to face the reality: you can't implement your preferences until they're the preferences of a majority, and that takes forever to accomplish if it ever happens (and it usually doesn't).  It's almost like facing your own mortality.

Likewise, if I were a conservative, it'd be a lot more tempting to say "Bush betrayed our principles with all that spending!" than admit that SS, publicly-funded education, and Medicare are super-popular and any Republican who wants to win is going to suck up to those programs and their respective constituencies.

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19172 on: September 28, 2012, 04:21:05 PM »
Mandark, most of my issue with Erik's article stem from the hostility. I'm more open to discuss things if there is no name calling about.

And a similar article - but much more articulate and less hostile - I came across today showed up. I highly suggest it.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175598/tomgram%3A_rebecca_solnit%2C_we_could_be_heroes/#more
IYKYK

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19173 on: September 28, 2012, 04:33:37 PM »
Agreed, Mandark.  Too many people fail to realize how coalitions work in other democracies as well and that our parties are just large coalitions.  I have this argument everytime I hear somebody start talking about the need of a new party to fit their own personal ideologies.  They just don't get that in the end they'll end up in bed with the same group of people anyways most likely.

In my case at least, it's mostly just the frustration that a giant amount of my views - which are mostly standard progressive views, nothing out of the ordinary in any way - don't even have much representation. Just because a third party would likely fall in bed with the corporations doesn't really mean you've won the argument. It also doesn't mean that that electoral reform is a fruitless endeavor, or the fact that our two parties are stripping people's voices - Stein and Johnson aren't allowed to participate in the debates at all. Even if what you say is true, it doesn't mean nothing should be done or that people shouldn't raise a stink about it.
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19174 on: September 28, 2012, 04:35:54 PM »
Mandark, most of my issue with Erik's article stem from the hostility. I'm more open to discuss things if there is no name calling about.

And a similar article - but much more articulate and less hostile - I came across today showed up. I highly suggest it.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175598/tomgram%3A_rebecca_solnit%2C_we_could_be_heroes/#more

Oh no, name calling?  Heaven forfend!  Wait, didn't you already make a blanket accusation of hypocrisy against Dems?  Hasn't Greenwald spent the last three years calling anyone who disagrees with him a party apparatchik?  I don't really mind that stuff.  Being called a stooge and rube for Obama and the DNC is small beer after half a dozen years of being called a stooge and a rube for Saddam and Osama.  But if you're gonna come out swinging, don't cry foul when you forget to tuck your chin in.

More importantly, content matters more than tone.  This is something I internalized in the early 00's when Krugman et al were constantly being dismissed for "shrill" criticism of Bush's tax cuts and the Iraq war.  Whoopsie!  Loomis is right, that dude at SA is wrong, and pretending otherwise because Loomis was gruff doesn't actually help anyone.

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19175 on: September 28, 2012, 04:37:11 PM »
Himu, do you feel that the debates should include someone representing the Stormfront viewpoint and that American democracy is being stifled because of this?

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19176 on: September 28, 2012, 04:37:49 PM »
Name calling is fine. But if someone is trying to make an argument and I really, really want to understand their point, for the sake of communication, articulating in a reasonable way is far better way of handling things than Loomis' article. I also called no names when I called out Democrats.
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19177 on: September 28, 2012, 04:41:45 PM »
Shut the fuck up about race, white people.

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19178 on: September 28, 2012, 04:43:14 PM »
Himu, do you feel that the debates should include someone representing the Stormfront viewpoint and that American democracy is being stifled because of this?

No, don't be ridiculous. You're equating hate speech to equal representation under presidential debates? That's just silly.
IYKYK

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19179 on: September 28, 2012, 04:48:48 PM »
Himu, do you feel that the debates should include someone representing the Stormfront viewpoint and that American democracy is being stifled because of this?

No, don't be ridiculous. You're equating hate speech to equal representation under presidential debates? That's just silly.

Ridiculous how?  There are a lot of European democracies where explicitly nativist/racist parties are able to flourish because of the multiparty system, and in the last 100 years in the US, the third party candidates that won the most states were Strom Thurmond and George Wallace, running on segregationist platforms.

If you want fringe groups to be given a larger megaphone, that's going to mean hearing more from people whose views you find despicable.

Oblivion

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19180 on: September 28, 2012, 04:55:11 PM »
Being called a stooge and rube for Obama and the DNC is small beer after half a dozen years of being called a stooge and a rube for Saddam and Osama. 

Matter of opinion. :smug

Himu

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19181 on: September 28, 2012, 04:56:25 PM »
Hmm, you have a good point Mandark. But at the very least, wouldn't it be appropriate to include the largest candidates into the debates? I don't see why the Democrats and Republicans should have a monopoly on it. But you make a good point that I didn't consider.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 04:59:00 PM by Stringer Bell »
IYKYK

Mupepe

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19182 on: September 28, 2012, 05:00:04 PM »
Agreed, Mandark.  Too many people fail to realize how coalitions work in other democracies as well and that our parties are just large coalitions.  I have this argument everytime I hear somebody start talking about the need of a new party to fit their own personal ideologies.  They just don't get that in the end they'll end up in bed with the same group of people anyways most likely.

In my case at least, it's mostly just the frustration that a giant amount of my views - which are mostly standard progressive views, nothing out of the ordinary in any way - don't even have much representation. Just because a third party would likely fall in bed with the corporations doesn't really mean you've won the argument. It also doesn't mean that that electoral reform is a fruitless endeavor, or the fact that our two parties are stripping people's voices - Stein and Johnson aren't allowed to participate in the debates at all. Even if what you say is true, it doesn't mean nothing should be done or that people shouldn't raise a stink about it.
I didn't say it was a fruitless endeavor.  The beauty of grassroots movements is that they do hold sway.  They can influence a party and election.  What Mandark said much better than I is that it comes down to the fact that your views are just not popular.  Reconciling that is more important than giving a mic to people just for the sake of being fair or some other notion.  It has to do with really making your voice heard and doing enough stomping and real political groundwork to be noticed and start a movement.  But most people prefer to resort to finger wagging and saying that the system is stacked against them. 

Edit: When it comes down to it, it's not just that the general population doesn't care about a lot of these issues, it's that so many of these supporters are only willing to go so far as their front door to push their agenda.  Too many people expect to sit on the sidelines and cry that "people just don't get it" instead of going out there and working for the change they want to see.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 05:03:15 PM by Mupepe »

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19183 on: September 28, 2012, 05:04:56 PM »
I'm not sure if my views are really that unpopular. When you lack the representation, of course it's not going to seem popular, because most people don't even know about it. Then again, I'm all for scaling down the military funding, pumping more into the sciences, education, and nasa. I know a lot of people are for more a more powerful military, as defensive measures, so maybe you're right.

To be fair, Occupy is a part of the movement I agree with, and they're definitely not sitting on the sidelines. I've even been to a few Occupy rallies.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 05:07:37 PM by Stringer Bell »
IYKYK

Mupepe

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19184 on: September 28, 2012, 05:11:58 PM »
I'm not sure if my views are really that unpopular. When you lack the representation, of course it's not going to seem popular, because most people don't even know about it. Then again, I'm all for scaling down the military funding, pumping more into the sciences, education, and nasa. I know a lot of people are for more a more powerful military, as defensive measures, so maybe you're right.
You might catch people who agree with it in theory but as I said, they don't care enough.  They don't understand how these things might affect them and in their bubble they have no reason to learn.  It's not a uniquely American thing.  Most people the world over just don't give a rat's ass about politics.  They'll say "oh yeah that's a great idea" just like when you ask them about the deficit.  But when it comes to the nitty gritty details of slashing this or raising that tax you're going to run into opposition guaranteed. 

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19185 on: September 28, 2012, 05:20:30 PM »
I'm not sure if my views are really that unpopular. When you lack the representation, of course it's not going to seem popular, because most people don't even know about it. Then again, I'm all for scaling down the military funding, pumping more into the sciences, education, and nasa. I know a lot of people are for more a more powerful military, as defensive measures, so maybe you're right.
You might catch people who agree with it in theory but as I said, they don't care enough.  They don't understand how these things might affect them and in their bubble they have no reason to learn.  It's not a uniquely American thing.  Most people the world over just don't give a rat's ass about politics.  They'll say "oh yeah that's a great idea" just like when you ask them about the deficit.  But when it comes to the nitty gritty details of slashing this or raising that tax you're going to run into opposition guaranteed.

Honestly, I think voting is like going to college. Most people only do it because they feel pressured into it rather than because they think will get any real, tangible benefit from it.

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19186 on: September 28, 2012, 05:37:56 PM »
If you want to look at how a fringe movement can influence a major party and have a serious impact on policy discussion in the US, you need to look at the Tea Party.  They did what was necessary- took a more extreme viewpoint of one of the major parties, identified how to infiltrate and influence the power structure and make people in the party beholden to them, then applied leverage.  THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT.  You don't do it by whining about wanting to be in debates.  You don't do it by sitting in a goddamn park for months on end and having drum circles, you stupid fucking hippies.  And you sure as fuck don't do it by voting for a vanity candidate that's never going to win and even if, all of a sudden she was receiving massive support and had a credible chance to win, would be a massively unqualified person to hold the office. 

No.  Co-opting existing power structures is how to do it, you fucking moron.  Want to have a seat at the table and have your views represented?  Organize within the Democratic party power structure for fucks sakes.  Pull a Grover Norquist and make it impossible for them to ignore you.  Have purity purges and primary challenges for people who don't vote the way you want them to within the party. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)
This rant ignores the inconvenient truth that the Tea Partiers were all basically Republicans beforehand, but still they were able to freak out and impose their no surrender, no compromise bullshit onto the entire party by freaking out because zomg black man in the white house! but FUCKING STILL, this is better advice if you genuinely care about this horseshit than voting for a vanity 3rd party candidate.  And I should know motherfucker, I voted for Nader TWICE.
[close]
yar

Mupepe

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19187 on: September 28, 2012, 05:42:36 PM »
So you voted for Bush then, COG.  FUCKING FANTASTIC! 

Steve Contra

  • Bought a lemon tree straight cash
  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19188 on: September 28, 2012, 05:53:35 PM »
I'm not sure if my views are really that unpopular. When you lack the representation, of course it's not going to seem popular, because most people don't even know about it. Then again, I'm all for scaling down the military funding, pumping more into the sciences, education, and nasa. I know a lot of people are for more a more powerful military, as defensive measures, so maybe you're right.
You might catch people who agree with it in theory but as I said, they don't care enough.  They don't understand how these things might affect them and in their bubble they have no reason to learn.  It's not a uniquely American thing.  Most people the world over just don't give a rat's ass about politics.  They'll say "oh yeah that's a great idea" just like when you ask them about the deficit.  But when it comes to the nitty gritty details of slashing this or raising that tax you're going to run into opposition guaranteed.

Honestly, I think voting is like going to college. Most people only do it because they feel pressured into it rather than because they think will get any real, tangible benefit from it.
Jobs aren't real tangible benefits?
vin

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19189 on: September 28, 2012, 05:54:44 PM »
So you voted for Bush then, COG.  FUCKING FANTASTIC!

:fbm
yar

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19190 on: September 28, 2012, 06:19:13 PM »
Triumph's right.  I don't have an ideological preference for how to achieve reform, but using a major party has an infinitely better track record in modern US history than third parties, radical activism, etc.  The New Deal, the Great Society, the Reagan tax cuts, civil rights legislation, the Clean Air and Water Acts, the Americans with Disabilities Act, pretty much everything has been achieved either by making it an important goal for one of the parties, or by creating a public consensus across the parties (both of which are happening, at different speeds, with gay rights).


And Mups is right about support being squishy.  There are a ton of issues where you can find great support in the polls, but where the respondents don't really care that much and they're giving a gut reaction to the question you asked.  Which is why you can word a question differently and get widely varying results.

The key test is how many people you can get to really believe in an issue and treat it as a priority, and then when it's time to try to get it passed, how much public support you can maintain in the face of attacks from the opposition.  You have to assume that any reforms you try to pass are going to be attacked viciously and dishonestly, and you'll need to mobilize a ton of pressure from your own side to overcome that.

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19191 on: September 28, 2012, 08:29:10 PM »
I forgot about this from tbogg in 2008, but it seems topical!

http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2008/02/25/your-mumia-sweatshirt-wont-get-you-into-heaven-anymore/

Quote
Every year in Happy Gumdrop Fairy-Tale Land all of the sprites and elves and woodland creatures gather together to pick the Rainbow Sunshine Queen. Everyone is there: the Lollipop Guild, the Star-Twinkle Toddlers, the Sparkly Unicorns, the Cookie Baking Apple-cheeked Grandmothers, the Fluffy Bunny Bund, the Rumbly-Tumbly Pupperoos, the Snowflake Princesses, the Baby Duckies All-In-A-Row, the Laughing Babies, and the Dykes on Bikes. They have a big picnic with cupcakes and gumdrops and pudding pops, stopping only to cast their votes by throwing Magic Wishing Rocks into the Well of Laughter, Comity, and Good Intentions. Afterward they spend the rest of the night dancing and singing and waving glow sticks until dawn when they tumble sleepy-eyed into beds made of the purest and whitest goose down where they dream of angels and clouds of spun sugar.

You don’t live there.

Grow the fuck up.
yar

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19192 on: September 28, 2012, 09:15:34 PM »
I'm not sure if my views are really that unpopular. When you lack the representation, of course it's not going to seem popular, because most people don't even know about it. Then again, I'm all for scaling down the military funding, pumping more into the sciences, education, and nasa. I know a lot of people are for more a more powerful military, as defensive measures, so maybe you're right.
You might catch people who agree with it in theory but as I said, they don't care enough.  They don't understand how these things might affect them and in their bubble they have no reason to learn.  It's not a uniquely American thing.  Most people the world over just don't give a rat's ass about politics.  They'll say "oh yeah that's a great idea" just like when you ask them about the deficit.  But when it comes to the nitty gritty details of slashing this or raising that tax you're going to run into opposition guaranteed.

Honestly, I think voting is like going to college. Most people only do it because they feel pressured into it rather than because they think will get any real, tangible benefit from it.
Jobs aren't real tangible benefits?

Yes every candidate says they'll make more jobs. But the methods that they propose can be completely different and I don't think the average voter assumes they have a good understanding of how effective each solution is (or isn't). They just trust that politicians will figure it out for them.

Most people are usually middle-of-the-road on social issues (guns, abortion, gay marriage) but can be easily swayed to an extreme on complicated problems like economic or foreign policy. It takes a lot more information to make an informed decision on those things.

Therefore, people just go with their biases. I think.

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19193 on: September 28, 2012, 09:31:01 PM »
I'm pretty sure he meant as a benefit from college

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19194 on: September 28, 2012, 10:29:20 PM »
Tons of people get a degree with no idea what they want to actually do as a career. And often they go into something totally unrelated to their degree. Wasn't Boogie a history major?

Yes, a diploma is better than none on your resume but as a society, we do push kids into college often before they know what direction they want to go in.

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19195 on: September 28, 2012, 11:19:45 PM »
think i'm gonna skip this page
010

Positive Touch

  • Woo Papa
  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19196 on: September 28, 2012, 11:26:27 PM »
i think its time for an updated/revised version of this:

http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=18904.msg460364#msg460364
pcp

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19197 on: September 29, 2012, 01:17:24 AM »
Nice addition to the topic at hand, PT. Keep fucking those chickens.
IYKYK

Positive Touch

  • Woo Papa
  • Senior Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #19198 on: September 29, 2012, 07:33:46 AM »
any time, buddy
pcp