Author Topic: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics  (Read 1866203 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
Yeah, but she presented herself as someone who wasn't part of any organization or anything, and there she is ORGANIZING 9/12 MEETUPS all over the internets. 
yar

Mandark

  • Icon
Well, yeah.

Each one of these clowns takes pains to present themselves as unaffiliated and independent, and they're all lying.  It's a given at this point.

Everybody gets that people will listen more to a Concerned Citizen than to someone who's been active in partisan politics.  That goes double for Republicans, now that their party's pissed away its brand.

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
I think you're grossly underestimating the impact of these astroturf temper tantrums at the town halls.  I'm saying this as someone who thinks the whole thing stinks.
PSP

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
I think people are starting to disapprove because they're tired of hearing it.  The longer this thing gets dragged out, the lower the approval rating will be for the reform.
🍆🍆

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
It's just odd that MSM is gathering her an the gun toting dude to voice their opinion.

Both toiled with making their stance seem rational IMO.

i.e repub plants.

Strong retorts but not having opinions based on facts....only GOP talking points.
©ZH

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
Has anyone investigated the behind-closed-doors shenanigans between Obama and Pharma?
PSP

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
Has anyone investigated the behind-closed-doors shenanigans between Obama and Pharma?

There's nothing to really investigate- Obama fucked up.  Sure getting 80 billion back from pharma would be nice, but even IF they do (and there's no real guarantee pharma will cough up the money to my knowledge) the fact is that they're still leaving tens of billions more on the table that pharma is overcharging.  It's the kind of bs backroom deal that make people wary of govt. in general and this bill in particular.  The only thing for sure that the administration is getting is that pharma isn't fucking with the reform effort, and actually is helping to underwrite some pro-reform ads.  But if they expect to get much more than that on what's basically a handshake deal, they're fucking delusional. 
yar

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
 :piss CHANGE :piss2
PSP

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
How much money could I make as a GOP "independent" voice? Seems like they're in need of some black plants
010

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
How much money could I make as a GOP "independent" voice? Seems like they're in need of some black plants

You'd do well, since you're homeskoold and all.  You just have to practice saying mind numbingly stupid shit without cracking up.  Oh, and also be cool with getting called an Uncle Tom a lot.
yar

Mandark

  • Icon
The deal with pharma is the worst thing the administration's done so far, except maybe the doubling down in Afghanistan.

It was also maybe a bit inevitable.  Health care reform wasn't going to get done without paying off one or more of the big stakeholders.  Hell, when Hillary was asked at a campaign stop how she'd get a health bill passed, she said she'd line up the AMA, pharma, the nurses, and large employers to override the insurance lobby.

This is why we need serious campaign finance and lobbying reform.  The deck is always stacked in favor of organized lobbies with huge amounts of money to dole out (as campaign contributions, as jobs for relatives, as a board of directors seat when you retire).

I'm anticipating similar frustration getting the energy bill passed.

Dickie Dee

  • It's not the band I hate, it's their fans.
  • Senior Member
Makiing backroom deals with Big Pharma is so awful I don't know where to begin, seeing as how they are the #1 Hydra head that needs to be cut for anything meaningful to happen.
___

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
I wouldn't go that far, imo AHIP and all of the plans they represent are the main problem.  You could still have a pharma industry if you replaced private insurance with a single player plan.
yar

Dickie Dee

  • It's not the band I hate, it's their fans.
  • Senior Member
Not using your high card (bargaing power and economy of scale) shows that you just aren't willing to take the proper steps.

The fact that they're pussing out so early is disheartening.
___

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
I hate to say it, but it's looking more and more that people like Frag were right- Obama's desperate need to try and appear post-partisan is going to sabotage the stuff he gets through from being more effective.  Having a mean bastard of a politician that didn't give a shit about the Republicans or being seen as cuddly would be mighty useful right about now...
yar

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Having a mean bastard of a politician that didn't give a shit about the Republicans or being seen as cuddly would be mighty useful right about now...

Like Hillary Clinton? :smug
010

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
Change. :-\
PSP

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
[youtube=560,345]fRdLpem-AAs[/youtube]

Quote
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened.” -Norman Thomas


Mandark

  • Icon
You know, I've thought on and off of posting that Reagan thing for months.

Quote from: St. Ronnie of Hollywood
But let's also look from the other side. The freedom the doctor uses. A doctor would be reluctant to say this. Well, like you, I am only a patient, so I can say it in his behalf. A doctor begins to lose his freedom, it’s like telling a lie. One leads to another. First you decide the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the  various doctors by the government, but then the doctors are equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him he can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go some place else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.

This is a freedom I wonder if any of us has a right to take from any human being. I know how I’d feel if you my fellow citizens, that to be an actor I had to be a government employee and work in a national theatre. Take it into your own occupation or that of your husband. All of us can see what happens once you establish the precedent that the government can determine a man’s working place and his working methods, determine his employment. From here it is a short step to all the rest of socialism, to determining his pay and pretty soon your son won’t decide when he’s in school where he will go or what he will do for a living. He will wait for the government to tell him where he will go to work and what he will do.


Basically, Reagan was saying that if Medicare passed, we'd wind up with the government telling people how much they could earn, in what profession, and where they'd practice.  It's almost half a century later and we're still waiting.

Tells you how seriously to take all these slippery slope ZOMG COMMUNISM arguments.

Dickie Dee

  • It's not the band I hate, it's their fans.
  • Senior Member
Holy shit! I started playing that assuming it was posted ironically and halfway through I glanced over at the poster and realized he was attempting a point.

Troll or distinguished mentally-challenged fellow? I report YOU DECIDE.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 02:51:50 PM by Mamacint »
___

Mandark

  • Icon
Quote from: Reagan
Walter Reuther said, “It’s no secret that the United Automobile Workers is officially on record of backing a program of national health insurance. And by national health insurance, he meant socialized medicine for every American.

Yep.  Walter Reuther was a big advocate of universal health care.  He offered to let the Big Three off the hook for employee hospitalization costs in return for them supporting UHC.

They turned him down, and hey!  Remember that time the auto companies were getting crushed under the burgeoning costs of health care obligations to their retirees?  Sure worked out great for them.

Flannel Boy

  • classic millennial sex pickle
  • Icon
Holy shit! I started playing that assuming it was posted ironically and halfway through I glanced over at the poster and realized he was attempting a point.

Troll or distinguished mentally-challenged fellow? I report YOU DECIDE.

Why choose? I vote a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow's troll account.

etiolate

  • Senior Member
I am waiting for the Government funded Pills for Polacks program. I'm going habve to trade Kosma for some pain killers, because Karakaland is bound to trade himself in.

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
I hate to say it, but it's looking more and more that people like Frag were right- Obama's desperate need to try and appear post-partisan is going to sabotage the stuff he gets through from being more effective.  Having a mean bastard of a politician that didn't give a shit about the Republicans or being seen as cuddly would be mighty useful right about now...

Considering how the GOP shits their tightie whities any time Obama and the Democrats try to introduce some legislation, he might as well just forget the post-partisan attitude and make full court presses to get his legislation passed.  The longer this thing is debated, the less likely it will be to pass or at least watered down to the point where it isn't worth passing.
🍆🍆

Oblivion

  • Senior Member
Destroying Jane the plumber wasn't enough. Lawrence O'Donnell continues the onslaught against another pinhead republican.



:bow :bow2
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 09:46:44 PM by Oblivion »

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
LARRY, LARRY, LARRY
yar

Dickie Dee

  • It's not the band I hate, it's their fans.
  • Senior Member
I try not to be a fan of any cable news bobblehead, but once in a while you see Lawrence O'Donnell whip out a 10" truth cock and the ensuing annihilation just makes you go fffffuuuuuck.
___

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
I don't want to eliminate that socialism, just this one.  bu bu bu bu $600B in grant money yadayadayada
©ZH

AdmiralViscen

  • Murdered in the digital realm
  • Senior Member
I still don't understand why we're even acknowledging the idea that the current health care proposals are anything anywhere near socialism.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
I still don't understand why we're even acknowledging the idea that the current health care proposals are anything anywhere near socialism.

Yeah thats a good point. Why do we consider socialized medicine socialism at all?

Mandark

  • Icon
I still don't understand why we're even acknowledging the idea that the current health care proposals are anything anywhere near socialism.

It's not an argument built to persuade.

You hear it because there's a large chunk of the population that doesn't just disagree with or dislike the president, but considers him quite literally to be an enemy.

That's why you get quotes like "I'm scared of Obama because he's a socialist".  That's why you hear about death panels and FEMA concentration camps.  That's why Katy Abram said she didn't want the country turning to socialism "like Russia", even though Russia has one of the lowest-spending governments in the world.

It's the same tribal fears that fueled the Muslim rumors, the Ayers rumors.  More generally, the ones that make people worry about the NAFTA highway and reconquista, or UN black helicopters.  It's the sense that people who are different from us and who hate us are going to take over our lives.

So it really doesn't matter that the proposed plans would re-entrench private insurance's role in the economy, or that end-of-life counseling is not murder.  This is emotional identity politics.

To steal a line from a British blogger writing about the town hall mobs, "It's not that I don't understand their thought processes: it's that what they say doesn't resemble thinking."

Flannel Boy

  • classic millennial sex pickle
  • Icon
I still don't understand why we're even acknowledging the idea that the current health care proposals are anything anywhere near socialism.

Yeah thats a good point. Why do we consider socialized medicine socialism at all?

By your reasoning, America has been a socialist country for a long time thanks to "socialized" armies, libraries, roads, water systems, schools, post offices, fire departments, and police forces. (hint: America, like pretty much every nation, has a mixed economy)

Mandark

  • Icon
I'm developing a spiel on hardcore libertarians as religious zealots.
« Reply #4832 on: August 15, 2009, 09:39:49 PM »
That's about where the "ZOMG socialism!" loses its effectiveness.

"This is socialism!"

"By that definition, so are [wildly popular government programs].  You want to get rid of those?"

At which point you've got two options:

1)  Sputter impotently and reach for the nearest talking points,

or

2)  Say "Yes, we want to do away with all that!" followed by humiliating electoral defeat, comforted only by your own smug moral certitude.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 09:44:06 PM by Mandark »

Flannel Boy

  • classic millennial sex pickle
  • Icon
I still don't understand how fully privatized sewers and roads are supposed to work, especially without government granted monopolies and public easements. :(

AdmiralViscen

  • Murdered in the digital realm
  • Senior Member
I still don't understand why we're even acknowledging the idea that the current health care proposals are anything anywhere near socialism.

It's not an argument built to persuade.

You hear it because there's a large chunk of the population that doesn't just disagree with or dislike the president, but considers him quite literally to be an enemy.

That's why you get quotes like "I'm scared of Obama because he's a socialist".  That's why you hear about death panels and FEMA concentration camps.  That's why Katy Abram said she didn't want the country turning to socialism "like Russia", even though Russia has one of the lowest-spending governments in the world.

It's the same tribal fears that fueled the Muslim rumors, the Ayers rumors.  More generally, the ones that make people worry about the NAFTA highway and reconquista, or UN black helicopters.  It's the sense that people who are different from us and who hate us are going to take over our lives.

So it really doesn't matter that the proposed plans would re-entrench private insurance's role in the economy, or that end-of-life counseling is not murder.  This is emotional identity politics.

To steal a line from a British blogger writing about the town hall mobs, "It's not that I don't understand their thought processes: it's that what they say doesn't resemble thinking."

I'm not questioning why Republicans are calling it socialism, I'm questioning why health care reform's defenders are even responding to the argument. The way things are going it probably won't even have a public option, and it sure as hell isn't single-payer, so why get wrapped up in the argument? Anti-birthers don't bother getting mired in the other side's talking points, they just call it stupid and say why.

The negro-fearers arguments never resemble thinking and they are usually scoffed at, but in this debate I see a bunch of people sticking their neck out and defending the concept of socialized medicine even though that is not what is being proposed by our 'liberal' Congress.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 10:21:19 PM by AdmiralViscen »

Mandark

  • Icon
Well, I don't think the administration or their institutional allies have been defending socialized medicine.  They've got their talking points, first of which is "if you like the plan you have, you can keep it".

They're going with basically the same strategy they used during the campaign dealing with the Seekrit Muslim rumors.  Try to flood the environment with the correct info and hope it doesn't get lost in the noise.

If you're talking about arguing with conservatarians about the more general merits of having a government provide social goods, then hell, that's what message boards were put on this planet for.

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
A large part of why Democrats and their allies have to respond to these absolutely stoopit arguments is that the media are a bunch of spineless wimps who, instead of treating these unbelievably moronic assertions with the derision and/or non coverage they so richly deserve, instead choose to have the same gang of idiots on to talk about them on Very Serious Broadcasts and treat them with deference.  "Up next we'll have former Congressman Tom Tancredo on to talk about how health care reform is, according to some, just a socialist plot to give free abortions to illegal immigrants and kill your white granny, and Governor Howard Dean who will tell you about the public option." 
yar

AdmiralViscen

  • Murdered in the digital realm
  • Senior Member
Eh. That Lawrence O'Donnell thing was a waste of time too. The message is getting lost.

Mandark

  • Icon
We'd be kidding ourselves if we thought a bill would have been passed already if only we liberals had better message coordination.

I know despondency's a reflex at this point, but let's not worry too much about the crazies dominating the news cycle.

Dickie Dee

  • It's not the band I hate, it's their fans.
  • Senior Member
I think Libs/Dems were honestly caught flatfooted on this. I think they assumed general acknowledgment that the system is so fucked that no one could possibly defend it, then proposed reforms so weak they assumed there would be little opposition apart from a few special interest groups sqawking. Getting the full force of Wingnuttia comparing these reforms to Nazism and seeing how much purchase this FUD would get does seem to be something they didn't anticipate.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 11:34:34 PM by Mamacint »
___

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
[youtube=560,345]K21_teAW0Zg[/youtube]



Pretty awesome juxtaposition between lunatics screaming about Hitler, socialism and God knows what the fuck else and people who HAVE JOBS AND INSURANCE having to wait in line for upwards of a dozen hours to get necessary treatment that is being denied to them, provided by an organization that was founded to give medical care to third world countries.  I just want to say THANK GOD that the media is covering the first story so much and not the second one.  Maybe if they carried crazy signs and shouted insane shit they'd get some coverage?
yar

ToxicAdam

  • captain of my capsized ship
  • Senior Member
I said it during the main election, UHC is merely a pipe dream among the left. It shipwrecked the Clinton presidency and looks to be doing the same to the Obama one.

Obama gave it a good try, but he (or future people) would be better off implementing reform in small bites. Trying this approach only invites big disappointment.

That being said, they can still salvage something out of this.

Oblivion

  • Senior Member
Sell your food stamps, it's all over.

Quote
WASHINGTON – Apparently ready to abandon the idea, President Barack Obama's health secretary said Sunday a government alternative to private health insurance is "not the essential element" of the administration's health care overhaul.

The White House indicated it could jettison the contentious public option and settle on insurance cooperatives as an acceptable alternative, a move embraced by some Republicans lawmakers who have strongly opposed the administration's approach so far.

Officials from both political parties reached across the aisle in an effort to find compromises on proposals they left behind when they returned to their districts for an August recess. Obama has been pressing for the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's almost 50 million uninsured.

Sebelius said the White House would be open to co-ops instead of a government-run public option, a sign Democrats want a compromise so they can declare a victory on the must-win showdown.


"Change" indeed. More like "Chang3"

 :'( :'( :'(

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
That sucks but it is to be expected.  The thing was dragged out for too long, giving way so the GOP could significantly jack up the fearmongering.  Also, his pharmaceutical compromise was crappy as well.  Besides the Dow is around 9000 so many Americans think the economy is just fine without health care reform; that there was nothing really wrong going on other than corrupt banking practices.  If the Dow slumped under 6000, the outcome might have been different.

I said it during the main election, UHC is merely a pipe dream among the left. It shipwrecked the Clinton presidency and looks to be doing the same to the Obama one.

Obama gave it a good try, but he (or future people) would be better off implementing reform in small bites. Trying this approach only invites big disappointment.

That being said, they can still salvage something out of this.

The best time to implement UHC was 60-70 years ago.  Either during the Great Depression or right after World War II, where they could just implement UHC because of the millions of new veterans that would get government health care anyway.  I doubt it would have been a significant transition either.  It was also before the significant increases of peacetime defense spending wrt the cold war.
🍆🍆

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
The best time to implement UHC was 60-70 years ago.  Either during the Great Depression or right after World War II, where they could just implement UHC because of the millions of new veterans that would get government health care anyway.  I doubt it would have been a significant transition either.  It was also before the significant increases of peacetime defense spending wrt the cold war.

We should start a think tank that argues a government sponsored terrorist attack is the only way to ensure UHC is passed.

brb going to law school, see you in the cabinet in 20yrs
010

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
I fucking hate this country, at times. I swear, if I could make films in another country with the talent pool we have here, I'd jet in a fucking second.
PSP

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
I fucking hate this country, at times. I swear, if I could make films in another country with the talent pool we have here, I'd jet in a fucking second.

What happened to canada. That place was a film making hotbed.

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
Not really.

Vancouver is a production hotbed - nobody makes films there.  You just shoot your films there.
PSP

Stoney Mason

  • So Long and thanks for all the fish
  • Senior Member
I said it during the main election, UHC is merely a pipe dream among the left. It shipwrecked the Clinton presidency and looks to be doing the same to the Obama one.

Obama gave it a good try, but he (or future people) would be better off implementing reform in small bites. Trying this approach only invites big disappointment.

That being said, they can still salvage something out of this.

Roughly agreed.

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
I highly doubt any major healthcare or energy reforms will get passed in the next few years.  Obama will probably still get reelected though since he'll get the credit for the improving economy.  And then maybe we'll see actual reforms getting passed in the second term.

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
I saw a quote on gaf that sums it up for me:

"The call has been made for the serfs to protect their corporate lords."

As Hitokage put it:

"The plantation owners have the slaves campaigning for slavery."
©ZH

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
I highly doubt any major healthcare or energy reforms will get passed in the next few years.  Obama will probably still get reelected though since he'll get the credit for the improving economy.  And then maybe we'll see actual reforms getting passed in the second term.


Fuck the health of the people AND their environment. It hurts profits.
©ZH

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
I highly doubt any major healthcare or energy reforms will get passed in the next few years.  Obama will probably still get reelected though since he'll get the credit for the improving economy.  And then maybe we'll see actual reforms getting passed in the second term.

That makes no sense.
PSP

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
  • Icon
Some sort of lame half-assed insurance reforms will get passed this fall; more likely than not, co-ops will be a part of it.  Of course, BCBS started out as a co-op and look at it now!  The administration will trumpet it as a win but it is most likely not gonna be anything worth writing home over. 

Obama's best bets to gain leverage for the 2010 and 2012 elections (to say nothing of actually getting shit passed) will probably be to have the economy keep improving and to either catch or kill bin Laden.
yar

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Osama's probably dead.
I highly doubt any major healthcare or energy reforms will get passed in the next few years.  Obama will probably still get reelected though since he'll get the credit for the improving economy.  And then maybe we'll see actual reforms getting passed in the second term.
That makes no sense.
What?

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
If the Dow is going up, he'll be fine.

The idea of UHC is probably dead for another 15 years.  Maybe we'll get it in less than 200 years after Germany implemented it.
🍆🍆

Mandark

  • Icon
I highly doubt any major healthcare or energy reforms will get passed in the next few years.  Obama will probably still get reelected though since he'll get the credit for the improving economy.  And then maybe we'll see actual reforms getting passed in the second term.

That's just not how it works.  It's much harder for a president to push through major legislation in their second term.  Look at FDR, LBJ, Reagan and Dubya.  Realistically, it's the next couple years or bust.

I said it during the main election, UHC is merely a pipe dream among the left. It shipwrecked the Clinton presidency and looks to be doing the same to the Obama one.

Obama gave it a good try, but he (or future people) would be better off implementing reform in small bites. Trying this approach only invites big disappointment.

That being said, they can still salvage something out of this.

That would be nice if that were true, but the nature of health insurance makes "small bites" problematic.

It's not like environmental public health issues, for example.  Lead in the water, smoke in the air, mercury in the food chain.  You pass a bill dealing with all of it, or pass several narrower bills, and it will basically have the same effect.  Failure to clean up one thing won't undermine your efforts to clean up something else.

Ditto pilot programs dealing with education/crime/drug.  A needle exchange in Baltimore will work or fail regardless of what the policy is in Oakland.

Health care, not so much.

The way the system is, you can't even somewhat effectively address either of the big problems (exploding costs and uninsured Americans) without either 1) a massive expansion of government or 2) a bill with a lot of moving parts to keep people from cheating the system so badly it collapses.

Say you want to make it so people don't worry about losing their coverage if they lose their job.  That was a goal of both Obama and McCain's plans during the campaign, is a wildly popular idea, and certainly sounds less ambitious than a revamp of the entire system.

If you do it by replacing the employee healthcare subsidy with individual vouchers, employers will offer coverage to fewer workers.  These workers then use the vouchers to buy plans on the market.  But if they're over 40 or have been in the hospital the last year, they probably won't be able to afford a plan on the individual market.  So the government has to step in and regulate insurance companies so they use community rating and ignore pre-existing conditions.  But if someone knows a pre-existing condition won't disqualify them from coverage, their best bet is to not spend any money on insurance (getting only what the voucher will pay for), they'll wait until they or a loved one gets sick, then sign up for the nice, low-deductible comprehensive plan.  So then you need to implement either a surtax or a mandate on people with little or no coverage to keep them from gaming the system.  But that would mean taking money from poor people who can't afford coverage, which you could get around by either helping pay for their costs or waiving the surtax/mandate.  Also, you'd need to implement some system for tracking and enforcing compliance with these rules for both the insurers and customers.

Which gets us *long inhale* in the neighborhood of the current plan.

Basically, any tweak to the system that's not completely insignificant needs to be packaged with another billion rule changes to keep it from being exploited.

ToxicAdam

  • captain of my capsized ship
  • Senior Member
That last point is a very good one, Mandark. Never thought of it.

At least the Dems will get some political capital out of this. They can still paint the Republicans as enemies of change due to their public campaign of FUD and manufactured outrage. But the truth is that Blue Dogs were the real ones that gummed up the works on this deal. It's always been the achilles heel of the left, they are a party of such varied interest groups that it's hard to get them all lockstep on the big issues. Whereas the Republicans are quite the opposite (sometimes leading each other over a cliff, as it were).


FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52602
Quote
Self-identified conservatives outnumber self-identified liberals in all 50 states of the union, according to the Gallup Poll.


Ru-roh

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
I'm shocked by that news omgwtfbbqqqqqqqqqq
010