The NBA thread

[Smooth Groove]

I agree but I just think that Bron's scoring in the post is more of a mental adjustment than a skills/physical adjustment.  For whatever reason, he just doesn't like to just back down and turn on a defender in the post.  Marion was pretty much helpless whenever Bron did that yet he didn't want to keep going back to that option. 

[Stoney Mason]

Just a hint of a post game can do wonders to open up his game. Heck even Shawn Marion has a post game. It's a shitty looking post game. But he can back somebody down and get off his shot. Lebron can't be less effective in the post than Shawn Marion.

[Phoenix Dark]

Eh, all I've seen from Howard is a series of power plays. He's effective, but he could truly be great/unstoppable with some decent post moves, a jump shot, hell just some moves beyond catch and dunk.

I think Lebron needs as many ways to score as possible and an actual real legit post game could only help. No one is saying he needs to turn into the the dream all of a sudden but being able to score with his back to the basket in a variety of ways could only help. If one thing has been proven by this series, it's that Lebron is not going to be able to be just a slasher like Kobe or Wade is if he wants to score when it counts. He is simply too big and too easy of a target despite being a good ballhandler for his size. He needs diversity in his game to be really successful against a team playing him smart like the Mavs were and he didn't have it.

Exactly. Playing off the ball better would greatly help his game, whether he's in the post or the key, etc. Standing around on the perimeter only works for so long.

[Cormacaroni]

Where were you the first 600 times Stoney said that PD?

Day 1 of no basketball. IT BURNS

[Stoney Mason]

lol. Yeah I remember having this debate earlier in the season after watching Lebron have essentially the same problems he had in that finals. He's good enough to make you forgot about his deficiencies because of all his other talents but a series like that puts the whole thing in stark relief. Lebron has struggled like this to generate offense before and the Heat's offense has struggled exactly like it did against the mavs lots of times in the season. I watched a lot of Heat basketball this year. We all just kind of forgot about it after the bulls and the celtics.

[Smooth Groove]

I swear the media just fills in the blanks with most of their stories. 


All Vince Carter Lebron does is dunk.  Vince Lebron needs to get a jumper. 

What a wimp!  Why won't Vince Lebron drive anymore? 

[Cormacaroni]

Yeah, that's why I only read a handful of sports writers. Genuine insight is quite rare, and increasingly it seems to come from the numbers guys (Hollinger, Pelton et al), or the people that really follow one team or athlete closely (like Brian Windhorst on LeBron).

I really don't think LeBron struggled offensively in this series though. He just didn't show up. I've seen him try and fail before, I know what it looks like. This was just not trying.

[Beezy]

Day 1 of no basketball. IT BURNS

TV fucking sucks right now. There's nothing worth watching. Maybe I'll abuse netflix or start playing games for hours at a time again.

[Cormacaroni]

Basketball is literally the only sport I watch, and I also spend a bunch of time reading/listening to related blogs, books, and podcasts etc. Leaves a big hole to fill for sure. You can be pretty much a full-time fan these days.

[Smooth Groove]

We can be like football tards and pretend that the NBA draft is a real sporting event.

[Cormacaroni]

looks to be of interest this year only for the inevitable trades. Well, that and David Kahn.

[Beezy]

I don't follow college sports so I don't follow drafts really.

I watch football also, but I'm not that into it. Don't have a fav team, don't know many of the players, and I get bored pretty often while watching it.

I tried watching baseball during the world series last year. When it wasn't putting me to sleep, it was like the most stressful thing ever to watch. I can't do it.

[Phoenix Dark]

Does anyone care about the NBA draft, especially this year? The NFL one is always an event, even with a weak top crop (like this year).

Hopefully the NFL comes back later this year, plus there's NCAAF. I usually don't pay attention to NCAAB until conference play starts, which is when things get interesting/move beyond big name schools destroying small programs. And there's high school basketball; we've got posters in NY, LA, and Michigan, there's plenty of good HS ball to see.

[Brehvolution]

I'd like to see Jimmer Fredette go to the Clippers with Blake.

[BlueTsunami]

Its gonna be one fucking long year if theres no NFL. All we've got is Baseball from here on out

[Phoenix Dark]

I'd like to see Jimmer Fredette go to the Clippers with Blake.

Not unless Jordan snags him first

[Great Rumbler]

Now that the smoke's cleared, a few thoughts:

The Heat don't need to completely retool and trade some of their superstars away. Their problem isn't a skill problem [they've got tons of it], they're problem is in maximizing they skill they have [which is what Dallas was able to do incredibly well]. Three things come to mind, in that regard:

1. Coaching. Spoelstra may be a great coach down the road, but it's something he really has to grow into rather than simply being thrown into. As has been mentioned numerous time, he often was unable to make quick changes to react to the way the series played off and often stuck with losing schemes way past when it became obvious they weren't working. He also hasn't been able to get everyone on the same page and keep them there. A team like this most likely needs a veteran coach who's been there before and knows how to handle fickle, top-tier talent.

2. Team play. When the Heat have it, they're white hot. When they don't have, they look awful. There was no consistency to their play, or at least not enough consistency to take down a team with [arguably] less raw talent but that knew how to play off each other's strengths and weaknesses.

3. LeBron James. He's an amazing talent, no one's going to argue otherwise on that, but if he doesn't care then the Heat won't win a championship. Can't get anymore plain than that. And if LeBron can't work himself up enough to care about the last three games of a hotly contested Finals [including a final game on his home court], when is he going to start caring?

Look at Dirk. He had had a bad first half [even three quarters] of a game in Game 6, but what did he do? He kept coming back, he kept getting the ball and he kept shooting. That's the difference, and it paid off. His shot finally came back in the fourth quarter and he scored 10 points to keep the Heat from making a last minute rally. He didn't shy away from the ball, he didn't check himself out of the game and try to put it all on the somebody else. He played through.

Some Mavs thoughts:

What a win in that Game 6. A win for team play, as Kidd [I think] put it. There's a lot of truth to that. For years, it's been Dirk giving it his all and laying his heart out there on the court, trying to get a win when too often his teammates disappeared entirely. It's been painful too watch at times, because you know the guy wanted to win really, really badly. But it was different in that Game 6, it wasn't the superstar putting the team on his back and fighting through the other team to secure a victory. Dirk actually was playing poorly in the first half, but it didn't matter. Because what finally happened was that the rest of the team put Dirk on the their shoulders and carried him across the finish line. I think that means a lot, both for Dirk and for the team as a whole.

[etiolate]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jimmer ends up on the Kings.

[Cormacaroni]

GR - Before you throw his teammates under the bridge completely, let's not forget that Dirk was a weak passer for much of the last decade.

[Great Rumbler]

GR - Before you throw his teammates under the bridge completely, let's not forget that Dirk was a weak passer for much of the last decade.

I'm not saying that it was always Dirk carrying the load and a bunch of chumps hanging from the loops on his shoes. But it has been a problem in the past, with his support not really being there in critical moments. Some of that comes back to Dirk, as the team leader and even as a passer. But this was the biggest stage and the biggest moment in franchise history, and his crew jumped in to fill the void when he was struggling.

Anyway, I might've got a little carried away there in praising Dirk and bashing everybody [a lot of that was more towards Jason Terry specifically, who hasn't always been the strong number two player when Dirk's needed him], but it was definitely a case of everyone carrying the superstar than the other way around in Game 6.

[Cormacaroni]

To me, the biggest diff this year was just that they got a center who was mobile enough to cover for Dirk defensively, plus a PG who could create easy shots.

[Stoney Mason]

From the outside looking in, Chandler was a huge difference maker for that team. Especially in the playoffs. He logged major minutes and was a big factor in toughening their notorious softness.

[Cormacaroni]

I hear Chandler is an unrestricted free agent, as well as Barea. He just earned himself a shit-load of money, for someone that many people (inc. the Thunder, who traded for him but called it off...) thought was finished.

[Stoney Mason]

Rubio finally coming to Minnesota

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6671886

[Phoenix Dark]

Jimmer Fredette going in the lottery tells you everything you need to know about this draft

[Cormacaroni]

Yeah, it'll be 3 or 4 years before we find out what most of the guys can do, and it probably won't be a whole lot. A serious lack of interesting trades so far too. Lots of inconsequential activity, nothing juicy.

[Mandark]

Wizards picked an athletic, "project" type big man.  Cause they apparently don't have enough already.

Nothing dramatic happened, but the fact that the Lakers/Celtics/Spurs are all open to major changes is promising.  You know, if there's ever basketball again.

[Phoenix Dark]

Pistons took Kyle Singler in the second round. Finally a reason to head back to the Palace, just to boo his ass.

Darius Morris probably should have stayed in school. UM should be good this season, but they would have been even better if he stayed, and I'd imagine he would have gotten into the first round after a steller junior year. Oh well, Lakers could be a nice fit if he makes the team

[Mandark]

The NBA took away one of my favorite things about draft night when they implemented the one year rule:  hearing Dick Vitale rant angrily about preps-to-pros kids getting drafted ahead of college stars.

[Phoenix Dark]

I wish I had cable just to hear what he said about Fredette. Going into the draft I was hoping he'd get taken by the Knicks, just to hear Stephen Smith go crazy

[Smooth Groove]

While driving last week, I listened a couple of times to Stephen A's LA radio show last week.  It's pretty entertaining, definitely more so than your typical local shows which do little more than feed the delusions of overzealous fans.  Stephen A obviously still has to kiss up a little bit to the Lakers fanbase but he would still talk smack about them the way other DJs won't.  But he's most interesting when talking about other teams because then he just goes off with no reservations. 

Yesterday, Stephen A was talkikng about how there should be 3 yr guaranteed deals in the next CBA because it'd get the NBA players to behave better.  He says right now that the majority of black players, with their multitude of tattoos and pants falling off their asses, look like they just came straight out of prison.  He argued that's the reason why Stern still has a problem selling the NBA to white America and that 3yr deals are the solution. 

[Cormacaroni]

Well, that's certainly not racist, I'm ok with that

[Cormacaroni]

Tattoos enliven the NBA considerably. I mean, Jason Terry really took the shit to the next level this year. What might we see in response? LeBron getting a noose around his neck, or a pair of hands?

[Smooth Groove]

I'm not sure how I feel but I guess an argument can be made that how most black NBA players look and behave is more indicative of the lower elements of black society rather than mainstream black society. In that regard, then what Stephen A's points are not racist because people don't want their kids or role models looking like gangsters or criminals.  

[Smooth Groove]

Tattoos enliven the NBA considerably. I mean, Jason Terry really took the shit to the next level this year. What might we see in response? LeBron getting a noose around his neck, or a pair of hands?

Stephen A says that he's fine with one or two but the problem now is that they're everywhere, including the face and neck, which take them from hip to scary. 

I'm now sure what the 3yr deals would do though.  Would kids really start looking and acting like Magic and Jordan again instead of players now? 

[Cormacaroni]

I feel like we've beat this topic to death, really.

Any employer can implement a dress code. Targeting black players explicitly, or recommending it, or associating black players with criminals, is straight-up racist though.

[Cormacaroni]

Tattoos enliven the NBA considerably. I mean, Jason Terry really took the shit to the next level this year. What might we see in response? LeBron getting a noose around his neck, or a pair of hands?

Stephen A says that he's fine with one or two but the problem now is that they're everywhere, including the face and neck, which take them from hip to scary. 

I'm now sure what the 3yr deals would do though.  Would kids really start looking and acting like Magic and Jordan again instead of players now? 

More regular 'contract years' would be a great thing for the sport, I think. Imagine if the likes of Erick Dampier was on a 2-3 yr contract all the time. That would probably have added 5-8pts and 4 boards to his career averages. How can that not be a great thing?

The whole thing about 'locking up your franchise player' is bullshit since they end up getting traded all the time anyway.

[Smooth Groove]

They certainly need to do something about players using their expiring contracts to dictate where they'll go and then forcing their former teams to take worse deals.

[Cormacaroni]

In the old days, they used to occasionally compensate teams for losing a major player, with draft picks and such. I REALLY can't see that happening these days, giving the animosity created by the likes of the Patrick Ewing draft.

I think everyone is used to the reality that a 7yr contract is basically only 6yrs long, now. You can see that in the way many deals are backend-heavy, so some other team is gonna be stuck with the painful last year. It doesn't necessarily screw a team though - witness the Jazz's efficient and timely disposal of Deron Williams.

[Mandark]

The other way to look at it is that if you sign a player to a five year contract, you get that player for five years.  "But we might get nothing in year six!"  Well, yes.  That's sort of baked in to the concept.

[Cormacaroni]

of course, that does tend to kill your team for years and make you a laughingstock i.e. post-Shaq Orlando

[etiolate]

The Salmons trade for the Kings makes no sense. It's negation by addition. =/

I'm fine with the Jimmer pick.

[ferrarimanf355]

I don't understand what the Heat did, but the player they drafted sounds good.

[Mandark]

of course, that does tend to kill your team for years and make you a laughingstock i.e. post-Shaq Orlando

Actually, Orlando didn't dip under .500 after losing Shaq (yeah I had to look that up), and were able to sign two of the best players in the league as free agents a few years later.  They would have gotten even better results if either Penny Hardaway or Grant Hill hadn't turned into a what-if story.  When Hill's injury and really bad GMing made them blow it all up, Dwight Howard lands in their laps.

If anything, the Magic are evidence that a team can be very resilient with the current personnel rules in place.


What I was getting at in my post was how the owners (and a lot of fans) seem to think a player's contract with a team entitles the team to anything more than X years of service from the player.  The whole point of a trade is that you're getting something in return for the opportunity cost of the remaining year's a player would have been on your team.  Suddenly it's a problem that you don't get anything in return if you don't make a trade, or that you get less for giving away four months of a player than you do for giving away four years?

[Mandark]

Really, any system you put in place will have to deal with the nature of professional basketball:  A single player can have a HUGE impact on a team, and players like that are relatively easy to spot at an early age.  That's at the root of most people's gripes and it's not something that can be changed.  If they can't move around freely things could get stagnant quick, but if they can then the threat of them leaving will always be there.

Personally, if they have to lower salaries I'd like to see a system like the one we have now, but with the cap raised and the luxury tax threshold lowered so they're the same amount.  When most teams exceed the cap it doesn't lower spending, it just distorts how money is spent, with the weird salary-matching in trades and the tendency to overpay players before your young stars finish their rookie contracts (Rashard Lewis, Carlos Boozer, all of LeBron's old Cavs teammates).

[Smooth Groove]

Who's this chick? 

I'm usually not into black women but she's pretty hot. 

[benjipwns]

 

Really, any system you put in place will have to deal with the nature of professional basketball:  A single player can have a HUGE impact on a team, and players like that are relatively easy to spot at an early age.  That's at the root of most people's gripes and it's not something that can be changed.  If they can't move around freely things could get stagnant quick, but if they can then the threat of them leaving will always be there.

That's one thing I've had to point out to people who compare it to MLB or NFL or what have you, that one single player is so much more valuable in the NBA than other sports because he's one of five on the court and one of eight or nine guys on the team who play when it counts. And you can point to what happened to the Cavaliers, or in the past the Bulls or the year Robinson was injured for the Spurs to see how much impact one or two guys can have.

I think that's also one reason the union is weak, especially now where it's protecting guys like Derek Fisher and Matt Bonner instead of being headed by Ewing and the guys who were in charge back in '95 and '99. And even then Shaq helped break them because he hadn't been through the explosion of the game vs. the low, long-term salaries the others were in the late 80s.

Yeah, I'm new here, I joined back (and had tried once before) during the playoffs because I liked the laid back discussion style you guys have but forgot I was actually accepted this time until I saw all the new people joining the forum today.

[demi]

Yeah, I'm new here, I joined back (and had tried once before) during the playoffs because I liked the laid back discussion style you guys have but forgot I was actually accepted this time until I saw all the new people joining the forum today.

I deal with lot of spammy names, I must have accidentally got you grouped in. My bad

[benjipwns]

No, that's alright, I thought it might have been because my old e-mail looked spammy. It worked out in the end.

[Cormacaroni]

http://www.nba.com/

[Great Rumbler]

 

[naff]

ruh roh

[etiolate]

Will there be no interviews about teams with players? They rushed to interview everyone involved in the Hickson/Casspi trade today.

[Cormacaroni]

Teams aren't allowed any contact with players or to use them in their publicity etc. Stern says there will be million dollar fines for violations so I'd imagine teams will be very very circumspect for the duration.

[Mandark]

Yeah, say what you will about Stern, but under him the NBA's always been super strict about teams interfering with or pitching woo at players when they're not meant to.  I think Cuban got fined heavily for making a fairly generic statement about loving to sign Kobe if it was ever possible.

[Great Rumbler]

Between this and the NFL lockout, professional sports is looking kinda sucky for the next year.

[CajoleJuice]

Maybe I'll get into soccer.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[Mandark]

This even kills the offseason for me.  I can't try to game out how new parts are going to fit together or even just look forward to next season without having to think about the lockout, and pretty soon the leaks and negotiating minutiae that will come with it.

  to this.

[Cormacaroni]

Yeah, best to just ignore it and play some vidya or something. It'll sort itself out eventually.

[pilonv1]

Start following Rugby League

Also the Tour De France starts tomorrow