Author Topic: The NBA thread  (Read 1519578 times)

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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3960 on: February 19, 2012, 11:49:36 PM »
When Lin starts about 20 games, we'll see Prof Hollinger go to town on it, I think. It's pointless for him to do so now. That said, the stats are absurd. He has lead the league in scoring since his first start!
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3961 on: February 19, 2012, 11:50:22 PM »
Miami has always had shitty fans. 

I know but try watching those two games back to back. The drop-off is just shocking, considering what the Heat fans are seeing on the court.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3962 on: February 19, 2012, 11:54:24 PM »
The other thing that has happened is that the Knicks have become the Heat of last year for me at least on an interest level. A team I must watch. I barely bothered watching the knicks this year because they were fucking awful and now I can't miss a freaking game because its so exciting. Every night I'm watching them now.

Hell I can't wait for tomorrow night and Carmelo coming back. That team has JR Smith, Carmelo Anthony, and the soon to be added Baron Davis. Three of the biggest ball hogs of all time. And they are going to sometimes be on the floor all at the same time! How could you not want to watch that.  :)

Baron is going to get a bunch of backup PG minutes for sure, and he's at his best in front of a revved-up crowd. It just depends on how much his body has left (probably quite a bit given how much he has coasted throughout his career).

I said on twitter earlier that JR shoots it like he stole it - then again, he has been trained to do so by Melo. Only Linsanity can keep it out of their hands! In theory though, if they stick to their spots and trust Lin to get them the ball, they could be absolutely deadly. The flipside is that you trade offense for defense, and you know which one D'Antoni will run with.
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Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3963 on: February 20, 2012, 12:14:23 AM »
Anyone read The Wages of Wins and know what a win produced or WP48 is?

After some initial skepticism, I'm inclined to believe that it's a better metric than Hollinger's Per.


http://www.thenbageek.com/faq

http://www.thenbageek.com/players

http://wagesofwins.com/faq/

Using WP48, Durant is not even close to being in the conversation for being MVP.  He's basically twice as good as an average player as his position.  His overall wins produced is still pretty good but that's more due to high minutes. 



Lebron putting on another monster performance.  He's determined to get everyone to STFU.  I hope it continues. 

minor clarification: He's trying to get everyone talking about HIM. The sheer egotism of his Cleveland comments were just unreal. He must be insufferable to deal with off court.

Really?  I didn't really pay attention as I thought it was just another smear job by the media.  Lebron really should learn to just keep quiet when being goaded into saying something stupid. 

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3964 on: February 20, 2012, 12:16:11 AM »
Wins produced for the last decade:

http://wagesofwins.com/wins-produced/

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3965 on: February 20, 2012, 12:19:50 AM »
Wages of Wins is Dave Berri, right?  I remember reading about some of his metrics (maybe WP48) and the reasoning behind the weighting seemed pretty flawed in a couple instances.  I get the sense that he's not really part of the basketball stat geek discussion, but has his own independent sideline going.

The trick in basketball right now is that tools like PER are severely limited by the stats traditionally kept and made available by the league, while better measures would rely on more in-depth stuff.  Which is being tracked now, but the information is hoarded by teams and stat services to gain a competitive advantage.

Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3966 on: February 20, 2012, 12:26:58 AM »
Their main criticism of PER is that players are rewarded for shooting more.  For example, a 40% shooter would have a significantly higher PER if he maintains the same accuracy while taking 5 more shots. 

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3967 on: February 20, 2012, 12:39:46 AM »
WP48 favors traditional bigs and discounts volume scoring and overrates efficiency by low volume scorers who are unable to create anything. Is Tyson Chandler going to shoot anywhere near 70% if he takes 20 shots?

09/10

09-10
Where's Bryant or Dirk? Wallace, Camby, Smith, Lee, Boozer, Iguodala, Randolph, Horford, and Lamar fucking Odom create more wins? (this isn't much of an argument--just because it doesn't pass a common-sense sniff-test doesn't mean it's wrong).

Anyway, I can't imagine any formula showing anything other than James smashing the competition.

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3968 on: February 20, 2012, 12:44:08 AM »
Miami has always had shitty fans. 

I know but try watching those two games back to back. The drop-off is just shocking, considering what the Heat fans are seeing on the court.

It's not shocking if you know that Miami has always had shitty fans.  Last year didn't change that, winning a championship didn't change that, nothing will apparently change that.

*Bitter Charlotte fan who saw his team get ripped away after leading the league in attendance for a decade
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Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3969 on: February 20, 2012, 12:52:12 AM »
I look at all those statistics as just a window into evaluation. I think all of them have their flaws including PER. I think it is a useful shorthand to evaluate certain things. Basketball is a harder sport to evaluate with that stuff because I really do think it involves chemistry and other hard to inspect intangibles. It's not like baseball where most of the dynamics are 1 on 1 matchups and more easily lend themselves to those type of statistical breakdowns.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 12:54:23 AM by Stoney Mason »

Himu

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3970 on: February 20, 2012, 12:55:59 AM »
Miami has always had shitty fans. 

I know but try watching those two games back to back. The drop-off is just shocking, considering what the Heat fans are seeing on the court.

It's not shocking if you know that Miami has always had shitty fans.  Last year didn't change that, winning a championship didn't change that, nothing will apparently change that.

*Bitter Charlotte fan who saw his team get ripped away after leading the league in attendance for a decade

at least the Zo years were good to you. I guess.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3971 on: February 20, 2012, 01:00:22 AM »
Sure, and when all the stats say LeBron is way ahead of Durant, you can use that to support what your eyes tell you. My bottom line is always - I've got first pick in a one-and-done tournament, and can pick from all players in the NBA. Do I pick LeBron ahead of Durant like the stats say? Hell yes. That can be supported by both the stats, basketball reasons (match-ups, the various things each brings to the table or takes away) and what your own eyes tell you.

(OK, the stats were wrong about Lin before Linsanity kicked off! But over time, they've corrected, and will continue to do so I trust. Hollinger was actually relatively high on him before the season...)
vjj

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3972 on: February 20, 2012, 01:09:23 AM »
Miami has always had shitty fans. 

I know but try watching those two games back to back. The drop-off is just shocking, considering what the Heat fans are seeing on the court.

It's not shocking if you know that Miami has always had shitty fans.  Last year didn't change that, winning a championship didn't change that, nothing will apparently change that.

*Bitter Charlotte fan who saw his team get ripped away after leading the league in attendance for a decade

at least the Zo years were good to you. I guess.

Charlotte had a lot of good teams in the regular season, we had finished .500 or better for 8 straight years before they moved to NO, despite not being able to keep a solid roster together for more than 3 years at a time.

Zo made the biggest shot in Charlotte Hornets history.  But he also bitched his way out of town, so fuck Zo and everyone who looks like him.

Hated Miami just cause they were expansion brothers but Zo going there took the hate to a whole other level.

<---hated Miami way before it was cool
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Smooth Groove

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3973 on: February 20, 2012, 01:12:55 AM »

WP48 favors traditional bigs and discounts volume scoring and overrates efficiency by low volume scorers who are unable to create anything. Is Tyson Chandler going to shoot anywhere near 70% if he takes 20 shots?


http://tinyurl.com/7ko7h6b

Book actually addresses how bigs are overvalued by this formula. 

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3974 on: February 20, 2012, 01:23:11 AM »
I pick Durant in that hypothetical tournament game.  :)

You're gonna have to explain your reasoning if you want people to take you seriously. I understand that you don't like LeBron but to not pick him, you'd have to not like winning.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3975 on: February 20, 2012, 01:25:48 AM »
Smooth, I read a devastating takedown of Dave Berri's stuff somewhere but damned if I can remember where. I almost never see his stuff referenced seriously by other stat geeks though.  It sounds fine in theory but I think it produces some really weird results.
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Cormacaroni

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Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3977 on: February 20, 2012, 01:40:54 AM »
I think Lebron is having an amazing MVP like season and he would be the first pick of anybody in the league if I was building a team.

That being said I like most people want to see where his head goes when he's in the conference finals or the finals and the pressure is on. That's where the question marks are as always. He's run up amazing seasons before. What he hasn't done is put it all together into a title run. If it doesn't happen this year it will never happen.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3978 on: February 20, 2012, 01:51:28 AM »
I agree that he gets visibly tight in the last 2 mins of close games a fair bit, but it's not like they matter any more than any other 2 minutes of the game. It's just when everyone is paying attention.

Not hearing anything to suggest that Durant is better. I'm a huge fan but come on, he struggled against Dallas just as bad as LeBron did.

vjj

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3979 on: February 20, 2012, 06:47:10 AM »
Anything is better than PER.
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benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3980 on: February 20, 2012, 08:40:00 AM »
As mentioned, the largest problem with WP is that it has no accounting of possession usage.

Look at this hypothetical team:
PlayerMPGWP48Wins
Chuck Hayes36.0.20612.7
Kris Humphries36.0.25415.6
Shane Battier36.0.18611.4
Landry Fields36.0.23714.6
Beno Udrih36.0.1599.8
Andrea Bargnani24.0-0.13-5.2
Gilbert Arenas24.0-0.05-1.9
Darko Milicic12.0-0.05-1.1
Total Wins55.9
It's difficult to accept a projection that a team with that rotation would go 56-26.

My little projection tool seems to have a more plausable result (2008-09 stats and used two replacement players):
PlayerMPGPPGRPGAPGW
hayes,chuck36.34.210.61.41.5
humphries,kris36.317.19.61.33.6
battier,shane36.38.55.12.52.3
brewer,ronnie36.317.04.22.53.3
udrih,beno36.314.03.55.82.4
bargnani,andrea24.213.04.11.01.9
davis,baron24.211.42.65.81.1
milicic,darko12.14.33.10.40.9
Total Wins16.9
(Using 2009-10 for Battier and Hayes from the first non-Yao year moves them up to 24-58.)

Even using the same WP data for 2008-09 finds a more optimistic result for the team:
PlayerMPGWP48Wins
Chuck Hayes36.0.1519.3
Kris Humphries36.0.1187.3
Shane Battier36.0.19011.7
Ronnie Brewer36.0.18611.4
Beno Udrih36.0.0432.6
Andrea Bargnani24.00.000.1
Baron Davis24.0-0.00-0.1
Darko Milicic12.00.061.2
Total Wins43.5

Plus when they changed the formula (again) they deleted all the old stuff because it was "no longer valid." Which means all of Berri's old predictions and projection tables from 2005-2011 are gone from what I can tell.

Here's a chart of various predictions compared to the actual results: http://weaksideawareness.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/nba-predictions-accuracy-2010-111.pdf

Rman

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3981 on: February 20, 2012, 09:13:21 AM »
Enjoyed the Knick game.  Lin is something else.  Nice to see Knicks fans excited again.  The Orlando/Miami game was a snoozefest.  Man, Orlando just doesn't have any heart in them anymore.

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3982 on: February 20, 2012, 10:00:43 AM »
http://freedarko.blogspot.com/2007/01/dave-berris-dismal-science.html

Quote
The problem of underinvestment is further compounded once we consider that players themselves can, at any given moment, choose between scoring (risky) and non-scoring (risk-less) production. Thus, rather than take a high-percentage field-goal attempt, a player may opt for a potential assist (WS = +.5), or focus on grabbing an offensive rebound (WS = +1). The problem here is analogous to the one identified by economist Joseph Stiglitz in his analysis of the sharecropping system. Stiglitz argues that in situations where workers can choose between more- and less-risky farming techniques, there will arise “a conflict of interest between the landlord and workers. At any specified share contract, the landlord wants only to have the worker choose whatever technique or crop maximizes expected output; the worker is willing at the margin to sacrifice some mean output for a reduction of risk”. For above-average scorers, shooting will generate more overall career utility than, say, offensive rebounding. Yet offensive rebounding may nevertheless be more attractive since it poses essentially no risk of a loss. If scoring was “priced” on the basis of Win Score, even the most efficient shooters would likely under-produce on offense, choosing instead to maximize other, less-risky forms of production.

Quote
The recognition that scoring is a uniquely risky mode of production, and that determining its “price” is fraught with uncertainty, affords a far more convincing explanation of its disproportionate value and compensation. What first appears as irrational, suboptimal behavior under the orthodox assumptions of neoclassical economics can now be understood as economically rational (if not perfectly efficient) outcomes in situations of uncertainty. Consider the question of why scoring is valued more than possession statistics, even though their marginal effect on wins is the same. Traditional economics tells us that in equilibrium, the price of labor depends on its quality (i.e. marginal productivity): if scoring and rebounding are equally productive activities, their prices should be equivalent. In contrast, Stiglitz and other economists have shown that in situations of uncertainty, quality often depends on price: here, workers with a certain labor capacity will only expend the necessary effort if they are paid an above-market wage. Put simply, the production of points in the NBA – due to the relative uncertainty of success – requires that scorers receive more than the value of their marginal product. Otherwise, players with the capacity to shoot efficiently WOULDN’T TAKE THE RISK OF TRYING TO SCORE.



Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3983 on: February 20, 2012, 10:25:58 AM »
It's perfectly fair to compare Kobe Bryant's efficiency with LeBron James'. Both play similar positions (a SF should get some easier baskets), have similar roles (moreso when James was with the Cavs), and take a high-volume of shots. Thus if a formula wants to discount the value of scoring and increase the value of efficiency, to any arbitrary level, neither player is being that unfairly treated. This arbitrariness, however, becomes problematic when comparing players with different roles who take different shots.

On most possessions in the NBA, an offense cannot get an easy basket as the number of high-percentage shot opportunities (e.g. tip-ins, alley-oops, open ten-foot jumpers) is very limited against a professional defense. These opportunities are disproportionately given to low-volume scorers who are unguarded or close to the basket (see: Tyson Chandler).

Since the number of high-efficiency shots is limited, an offense needs players to take the medium- or high-difficulty shots. These shots are disproportionately taken by high-volume scorers (See: Jeremy Lin). Someone has to, for example, take a shot with the shot clock running out 25 feet from the basket while guarded by Shawn Marion.

The net result is that some players take very few shots and most of them are easy baskets while others take a lot of shots and most of them are not at all easy to make.

The same logic, to some degree, applies to turnovers.

 . . . .

I can't touch on the statically methodology or the team adjustments.

. . . .

The player adjustments seem to reflect Berri's own biases. When a player meets or surpasses his expectation for what a player should be, he's rewarded. If he doesn't, he's punished.


Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3984 on: February 20, 2012, 11:19:30 AM »
Yeah, the nature of basketball makes individual player ratings a lot trickier than in baseball.  You don't have the equivalent of a batting order where every player on the floor goes through their chance to take a shot and is personally responsible for the results.

Instead, each shot is the result of interactions of teammates (or in the cases of the Kings, a deliberate choice to not interact with ones' teammates).  So Bill James gets to use "what if a standardized crappy player used this plate appearance?" as his counterfactual, but basketball geeks don't have anything as simple.  A player who can take a high volume of shots and shoots 40% is "better" and probably more valuable than a player who takes fewer shots with the same FG% and TO rates.  But at some point you get diminishing returns from taking away shots from the guys who only dunk or shoot corner threes.  Figuring out that point just from using traditional stats is basically impossible.

But yeah, Dave Berri's kind of a goof.

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Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3986 on: February 20, 2012, 11:44:22 AM »
But at some point you get diminishing returns from taking away shots from the guys who only dunk or shoot corner threes.

This is true: not all high difficulty shots are necessary. On the other hand, players who take away some shots from teammates also create a lot of easy shots for them (see: Lin and Novak yesterday). The latter probably outweighs the former. Sometimes they do it without even touching the ball (see: Shaq or Duncan).

This Berri stuff happens in hockey even though scoring is so very infrequent. "OMG that gritty player with two goals all season sure plays the game the right way unlike that showboating, cherry-picking Russian with 55."

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3987 on: February 20, 2012, 11:45:57 AM »

The writer responsible for that headline has been fired:

http://www.neontommy.com/news/2012/02/espn-writer-fired-over-racist-jeremy-lin-headline

I eagerly await his complaint letter entitled "ESPN Gypped Me."

Joe Molotov

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3988 on: February 20, 2012, 11:53:32 AM »
ESPN is such a niggardly company, always trying to jew down their employees' contracts.
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T-Short

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3989 on: February 20, 2012, 12:00:21 PM »
It did seem to be a pretty slanted headline
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Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3990 on: February 20, 2012, 12:03:31 PM »
In reality, he deserved to be fired for yellow-journalism.

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3991 on: February 20, 2012, 12:08:45 PM »
Quote
Federico, 28, said he understands why he was axed. "ESPN did what they had to do," he said.

He said he has used the phrase "at least 100 times" in headlines over the years and thought nothing of it when he slapped it on the Lin story.

Federico called Lin one of his heroes - not just because he's a big Knicks fan, but because he feels a kinship with a fellow "outspoken Christian."

Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3992 on: February 20, 2012, 12:29:25 PM »
Yeah I thought it was an over-reaction. You see that phrase a thousand times in sports journalism. Yes in this case it shouldn't happen but I think ESPN is just trying to save face. Why don't they work on the rest of their shitty journalism.

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3993 on: February 20, 2012, 01:20:29 PM »
What Whitlock said was 1000x more offensive, especially given his penchant for screaming about perceived racism.  It showed a true understanding into what he sees and what he doesn't.

But he didn't get fired because he actually has some talent. 
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Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3994 on: February 20, 2012, 05:00:33 PM »



« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 06:32:00 PM by Stoney Mason »

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3995 on: February 20, 2012, 07:06:43 PM »
Watched the Thunder - Nuggets game late last night - worth staying up for. Good old fashioned barn-burner! The Ibaka block where he reached out to his right mid-air to flick the ball away was amazing, no idea how he got to that cleanly. 

D-Will presumably will be out for blood against Lin tonight....
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3996 on: February 20, 2012, 07:13:27 PM »
This should be obvious but anyway: 'Chink in the armour' is inoffensive applied to a non-Asian.  It is doubly offensive when applied to Lin, because he is Taiwanese-American, since it both applies a racial epithet to him, AND implies that Taiwan is part of China. If you have any Taiwanese-American friends who know two shits about their country or its politics, just try calling them a Chink and see what happens. I bet it's not pretty.

If we're supposed to believe that the headline was not actually aimed at Lin, then :lol I saw a gazillion variations on that on twitter that day, all tagged #linsanity
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Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3997 on: February 20, 2012, 07:17:38 PM »
I don't think anyone thinks that calling people chinks is okay. I don't know this writer but what I have a hard time believing is that he is deliberating slipping in racist puns into his headlines for lulz. I think retracting the headline and apologizing is enough because I can see as a reasonable person how such a slip up can occur.

I think what's more likely is indeed lazy writing and using cliche headlines and catchphrases. Maybe they should work on fixing that.

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3998 on: February 20, 2012, 07:24:17 PM »
I just wish people got fired for being shitty writers and absolute twats at the same rate they did for racial twattery.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #3999 on: February 20, 2012, 07:25:08 PM »
A guy was fired at my company for using 'WTF' in a headline that never even reached publication stage recently. Reputation is far more valuable than a single employee. I'd have fired that guy in a cocaine heartbeat.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4000 on: February 20, 2012, 07:26:36 PM »
I just wish people got fired for being shitty writers and absolute twats at the same rate they did for racial twattery.

So much of the ESPN stuff is sub-literate. It's hard to imagine it gets edited at all. Most of it seems to be just thrown up there like a blog post now.
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Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4001 on: February 20, 2012, 07:30:47 PM »
From the company's standpoint it probably doesn't matter whether it was deliberate.  If your job is writing headlines, then avoiding stupidly predictable controversies has to be considered a fairly important skill.

Anyway, how great would it be if Amare's knees held up enough that he could go back to being STAT and Carmelo's able to flourish?  Throw in a couple decent bench players from free agency or the draft, and the next couple years the Knicks might throw a scare into the Heat and Bulls.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4002 on: February 20, 2012, 07:37:27 PM »
Watching Amare yesterday depressed me all over again. Get offensive rebound, go back down, try to get fouled, fail to complete the play...ugh. In Phoenix he'd have taken off from 10 feet out and dunked that shit on the first bounce.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4003 on: February 20, 2012, 07:38:48 PM »
I think he's basically going to be late-period Karl Malone from now on. If he's included in the offense in the right way (i.e. pick and roll with Lin), he can be really effective. If not, he's going to struggle to get anything by himself.
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Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4004 on: February 20, 2012, 07:40:10 PM »
 :(

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4005 on: February 20, 2012, 07:47:52 PM »
Well, that's still a pretty solid 3rd option, no? He's so invisible lately that it's hard to imagine him being a 1st option again.
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Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4006 on: February 20, 2012, 07:54:56 PM »
Yeah, he could still be really valuable in an offense that uses the pick and roll heavily.  But it's always a little sad to see a player known for their athleticism lose that part of their game, especially if that time arrives sooner because of injury.

There's still fun in watching someone transform into the Savvy Veteran, but dammit I want my Amare dunking on people and stealing highlight time from Blake Griffin.

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4007 on: February 20, 2012, 07:57:24 PM »
I think he's basically going to be late-period Karl Malone from now on.

He wishes.

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4008 on: February 20, 2012, 07:58:26 PM »
post-surgery Webber?

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4009 on: February 20, 2012, 07:59:31 PM »
Yeah, he could still be really valuable in an offense that uses the pick and roll heavily.  But it's always a little sad to see a player known for their athleticism lose that part of their game, especially if that time arrives sooner because of injury.

There's still fun in watching someone transform into the Savvy Veteran, but dammit I want my Amare dunking on people and stealing highlight time from Blake Griffin.

Absolutely. But after 2 major knee surgeries, it's amazing he can even do what he does....
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4010 on: February 20, 2012, 08:03:53 PM »
Ugh, leave Chandler in the game and let him foul out if need be. I hate when coaches deliberately disrupt their whole game / substitution pattern 'cause of a few fouls early.

On the other hand....Novakaine!
vjj

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4011 on: February 20, 2012, 08:36:42 PM »
A Larry Brown special!

"What do you mean you're our best player and this is a close game, you have two fouls, that means you're sitting until the second half!"

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4012 on: February 20, 2012, 08:43:30 PM »
This happened recently with Chris Paul and one of the stat-heads tweeted that CP has fouled out of 0.3% of his career games to date. OK, Chandler is more foul-prone than CP but there is still nothing to suggest that the 4th quarter is any different than the 1st quarter in terms of importance. It's just one of the few areas in which coaches can directly impact the game, so they tend to do it. Despite the example of say, Phil Jackson.
vjj

benjipwns

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4013 on: February 20, 2012, 08:48:17 PM »
Oden had microfracture surgery again due to additional damage: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AlPhbW47GMoJd0iswB_72tC8vLYF?slug=ap-trailblazers-oden

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4014 on: February 20, 2012, 08:56:35 PM »
I think his goal is to keep having knee surgeries til his legs are the same length
vjj

Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4015 on: February 20, 2012, 09:06:42 PM »
Dirk has 17 points and ten boards with 3 minutes left in the first half.


Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4016 on: February 20, 2012, 09:11:12 PM »
deep down, you know you are the only one who cares
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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4017 on: February 20, 2012, 09:12:13 PM »
Not that Dirk is not interesting. But we have Baron Davis, Melo, Amare and JR Smith playing at the same time here
vjj

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4018 on: February 20, 2012, 09:18:41 PM »
010

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Lin>Tebow)
« Reply #4019 on: February 20, 2012, 09:32:55 PM »
D-Will putting a hurtin' on the Knicks as predicted
vjj