Author Topic: The NBA thread  (Read 1519568 times)

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etiolate

  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5040 on: April 23, 2012, 09:08:54 PM »
I haven't been as high on the Clips as a playoff force since Billups got injured. I think CP3 will be stuck having to do it all in the playoffs again and face defenses set to deny him. Blake's offensive game is pretty limited and they need either Mo or Foye to play awesome to win a tough series.

Beezy

  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5041 on: April 23, 2012, 09:26:38 PM »
:bow Tyson Chandler :bow2

DJ_Tet

  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5042 on: April 23, 2012, 09:32:01 PM »
It's just funny how many shitty centers Cuban signed over the years and he finally gets a good one, and a championship, and just lets him walk.
TIT

Cormacaroni

  • Poster of the Forever
  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5043 on: April 23, 2012, 09:47:42 PM »
Yeah, but on the other hand, they've never had a real shot at a marquee free agent in the Cuban era, and this D-Will thing sure seems like it could happen
vjj

DJ_Tet

  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5044 on: April 23, 2012, 10:06:20 PM »
Yeah D-Will is a huge pickup no doubt.  No way they could have kept Chandler and still gotten D-Will?

Still wasted their 'repeat' year and one of Dirk's prime years, but D-Will would make a huge difference.
TIT

Cormacaroni

  • Poster of the Forever
  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5045 on: April 23, 2012, 10:16:59 PM »
Well, they won't be resigning Kidd, or Terry I imagine. Possibly they could amnesty Brenda. I'm not super-hip on their cap situation but possibly there was a way they could have swung it. I think the big sticking point was Shawn Marion's contract - if Cuban had been able to dump it without taking too much money back...but that hasn't happened.
vjj

Cormacaroni

  • Poster of the Forever
  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5046 on: April 23, 2012, 10:48:06 PM »
DJ Tet - Hollinger dissects the Bobcats, truly painful to read. Can't imagine how bad it was to watch

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sam Sharpe/US Presswire
Kemba Walker and the Bobcats have won just seven games this season.
Worst. Team. Ever.

With three games left, the Charlotte Bobcats are careening toward infamy. Losers of 20 straight, they stand at 7-56, and if they don't win one of their final three contests, their 7-59 mark would be the worst winning percentage in NBA history. Although it would not be the fewest wins in pro basketball history -- the Providence Steamrollers of the old BAA, featuring jump shot inventor Kenny Sailors, went 6-42 in 1947-48 -- by virtually any other standard this team has a strong claim on the title of worst ever.

Consider Sunday night, for instance, when the Bobcats lost to Sacramento … at home … by 26. Do you know how bad you have to be to get blown out at home by the Kings? Sacramento hadn't won a game by 26 points all season, had won one road game since the All-Star break and had only four double-digit wins in its previous 63 outings. My Power Rankings rate the Kings the league's fourth worst team, and they still completely outclassed the Cats.

Charlotte has three more chances to get a win, with the best hope seeming to be Monday's road game in Washington. Emphasis on "seeming" -- the Wizards have actually been a real basketball team for the past month or so, winning five of their past seven (including a 28-point romp in Charlotte) and all but eliminating Milwaukee with an upset win on Wednesday.

The other two games are in Orlando on Wednesday and the finale at home against the Knicks on Thursday. If Charlotte loses on Wednesday it'll probably play the Knicks' backups on Thursday -- an Orlando win eliminates New York's shot at the No. 6 seed -- and its best shot at the elusive eighth win may come against Jerome Jordan, Toney Douglas and the rest of the Knicks' bench.

In the meantime, let's look a little closer at the many levels of Charlotte's awfulness, starting with its staggeringly awful scoring margin.

The Bobcats have been outscored by 13.70 points per game this season; that's more than double the margin of the next worst team, Cleveland (-6.73). Of late they've redoubled their efforts; during the current 20-game losing streak, 14 of the defeats have been by double figures and an astounding nine have been by 20 points or more.

Amazingly, this isn't the worst scoring margin in NBA history, and it represents Charlotte's best argument for not being the worst team ever. The 1992-93 Mavericks went 11-71 and were outscored by 14.68 points per game; the only way the Bobcats can equal that is if they lose by a combined 106 points over the final three games. While I wouldn't put this past them, this is a tall order even for lowly Charlotte.

Charlotte is set to join that Mavs team in another category of awfulness: The Bobcats are on pace to finish last in both offensive and defensive efficiency. (The 1986-87 Clippers also managed this; in any debate about bad teams, you must never overlook the Clippers). Charlotte is virtually assured of finishing last in offense, with a mouth-dropping 92.4 mark that is five points worse than the next worst team. (Comparison point: five points is what separates No. 3 Denver from No. 20 Dallas). If you're looking for further lowlights, consider their appalling 48.5 team true shooting percentage -- basically, everybody shoots like Rajon Rondo, Terrence Williams or Sebastian Telfair.

On defense, however, they have some competition. Sacramento and New Jersey both stand just one point ahead of them; while it would require some pretty severe results to pass them over the course of just three Charlotte games and two apiece for the Kings and Nets, it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

And finally, there's this: at least Dallas had Derek Harper. Harper finished with a respectable 15.9 PER. And at least the 1972-73 Sixers had Fred Carter, as well as two other players who finished with a PER above the league average.

The Bobcats? You can make a credible argument that not one player on their roster would start for most teams.

Most notably, they're threatening to not have a single player with a PER above the league average of 15.00. Thanks to a late charge, rookie Kemba Walker has pushed his mark up to 15.28, which for the moment has him dangling over the precipice of respectability. He has three games not to screw it up.

The next closest Bobcat is Derrick Brown at 14.41. (If you're reading this, you're probably a big fan. But probably not so big that you know who Derrick Brown is, or what he looks like, or where he went to school. NBA players do not come more obscure than Derrick Brown).

Surprisingly, the Bobcats actually have a lot of halfway-decent, rotation-caliber players. Walker, Brown, D.J. Augustin, Corey Maggette, Byron Mullens, Gerald Henderson and Bismack Biyombo all are good enough to crack virtually any team's top nine. So was Boris Diaw, as he's proven in San Antonio. And D.J. White and Reggie Williams aren't terrible, either.

What ails the Cats more than anything, it seems, is their complete and total lack of star power, particularly on offense. The hope was that Tyrus Thomas could be something of a go-to guy, but he's been shockingly awful and frequently miscast as a small forward.

You can go through the roster with similar disappointments. The hope was that Augustin could build on his strong finish to last season, but he's proven to be no more than a decent backup. The hope was that Maggette could provide offense, but he's been injured half the year (not a surprise) and his effectiveness has declined markedly when he's played (a bit more of a surprise). The hope was that Diaw would lay off the brie and arrive in shape … actually, that was hopeless from the start.

Unfortunately, most of what can go wrong has. But even if everything went right, this team was doomed to be terrible because of the moves of the past five seasons. From Larry Brown's arrival up until the middle of last season, virtually every Charlotte move ended up torching the 2011-12 roster.

While trading Tyson Chandler for Erick Dampier remains the piece de resistance (in a "salary dump," mind you, that saved no money), they've also had multiple draft tragedies highlighted by Alexis Ajinca and Adam Morrison, dealt a lottery pick in 2007 and had no first-rounders in 2009 or 2010.

And, of course, they've had no luck with stars. Gerald Wallace was the closest thing they've had to one, and the Bobcats rightly cashed in his stock at the trade deadline a year ago.

In other words, it isn't easy being this bad, which explains why only a couple of teams in the past seven decades can rival Charlotte's awfulness. And it may get worse before it gets better -- thanks to the "let's be average now rather than good later" mindset of the Brown era, the Bobcats still owe the Bulls a future first that becomes completely unprotected in 2016.

In the meantime, they still have three games to avoid the history books. As you might imagine, they'll be heavy underdogs in all three.

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John Hollinger | email
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NBA Insider for ESPN.com since 2005
Developed PER, Pace Factor and other key metrics
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bigbaddave15
It's going to be a sad day if the Bobcats don't even get the 1st overall pick after all this, and that has been happening more often than not the past few years (the worst team doesn't end up drawing the 1st pick)
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COMMENTARY
Just how bad are the Bobcats?
Charlotte needs a win to avoid the history books (PER Diem: April 23, 2012)
Updated: April 23, 2012, 11:44 AM ET
By John Hollinger | ESPN.com
13
19
EMAIL
PRINT

Sam Sharpe/US Presswire
Kemba Walker and the Bobcats have won just seven games this season.
Worst. Team. Ever.

With three games left, the Charlotte Bobcats are careening toward infamy. Losers of 20 straight, they stand at 7-56, and if they don't win one of their final three contests, their 7-59 mark would be the worst winning percentage in NBA history. Although it would not be the fewest wins in pro basketball history -- the Providence Steamrollers of the old BAA, featuring jump shot inventor Kenny Sailors, went 6-42 in 1947-48 -- by virtually any other standard this team has a strong claim on the title of worst ever.

Consider Sunday night, for instance, when the Bobcats lost to Sacramento … at home … by 26. Do you know how bad you have to be to get blown out at home by the Kings? Sacramento hadn't won a game by 26 points all season, had won one road game since the All-Star break and had only four double-digit wins in its previous 63 outings. My Power Rankings rate the Kings the league's fourth worst team, and they still completely outclassed the Cats.

Charlotte has three more chances to get a win, with the best hope seeming to be Monday's road game in Washington. Emphasis on "seeming" -- the Wizards have actually been a real basketball team for the past month or so, winning five of their past seven (including a 28-point romp in Charlotte) and all but eliminating Milwaukee with an upset win on Wednesday.

The other two games are in Orlando on Wednesday and the finale at home against the Knicks on Thursday. If Charlotte loses on Wednesday it'll probably play the Knicks' backups on Thursday -- an Orlando win eliminates New York's shot at the No. 6 seed -- and its best shot at the elusive eighth win may come against Jerome Jordan, Toney Douglas and the rest of the Knicks' bench.

In the meantime, let's look a little closer at the many levels of Charlotte's awfulness, starting with its staggeringly awful scoring margin.

The Bobcats have been outscored by 13.70 points per game this season; that's more than double the margin of the next worst team, Cleveland (-6.73). Of late they've redoubled their efforts; during the current 20-game losing streak, 14 of the defeats have been by double figures and an astounding nine have been by 20 points or more.

Amazingly, this isn't the worst scoring margin in NBA history, and it represents Charlotte's best argument for not being the worst team ever. The 1992-93 Mavericks went 11-71 and were outscored by 14.68 points per game; the only way the Bobcats can equal that is if they lose by a combined 106 points over the final three games. While I wouldn't put this past them, this is a tall order even for lowly Charlotte.

Charlotte is set to join that Mavs team in another category of awfulness: The Bobcats are on pace to finish last in both offensive and defensive efficiency. (The 1986-87 Clippers also managed this; in any debate about bad teams, you must never overlook the Clippers). Charlotte is virtually assured of finishing last in offense, with a mouth-dropping 92.4 mark that is five points worse than the next worst team. (Comparison point: five points is what separates No. 3 Denver from No. 20 Dallas). If you're looking for further lowlights, consider their appalling 48.5 team true shooting percentage -- basically, everybody shoots like Rajon Rondo, Terrence Williams or Sebastian Telfair.

On defense, however, they have some competition. Sacramento and New Jersey both stand just one point ahead of them; while it would require some pretty severe results to pass them over the course of just three Charlotte games and two apiece for the Kings and Nets, it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

And finally, there's this: at least Dallas had Derek Harper. Harper finished with a respectable 15.9 PER. And at least the 1972-73 Sixers had Fred Carter, as well as two other players who finished with a PER above the league average.

The Bobcats? You can make a credible argument that not one player on their roster would start for most teams.

Most notably, they're threatening to not have a single player with a PER above the league average of 15.00. Thanks to a late charge, rookie Kemba Walker has pushed his mark up to 15.28, which for the moment has him dangling over the precipice of respectability. He has three games not to screw it up.

The next closest Bobcat is Derrick Brown at 14.41. (If you're reading this, you're probably a big fan. But probably not so big that you know who Derrick Brown is, or what he looks like, or where he went to school. NBA players do not come more obscure than Derrick Brown).

Surprisingly, the Bobcats actually have a lot of halfway-decent, rotation-caliber players. Walker, Brown, D.J. Augustin, Corey Maggette, Byron Mullens, Gerald Henderson and Bismack Biyombo all are good enough to crack virtually any team's top nine. So was Boris Diaw, as he's proven in San Antonio. And D.J. White and Reggie Williams aren't terrible, either.

What ails the Cats more than anything, it seems, is their complete and total lack of star power, particularly on offense. The hope was that Tyrus Thomas could be something of a go-to guy, but he's been shockingly awful and frequently miscast as a small forward.

You can go through the roster with similar disappointments. The hope was that Augustin could build on his strong finish to last season, but he's proven to be no more than a decent backup. The hope was that Maggette could provide offense, but he's been injured half the year (not a surprise) and his effectiveness has declined markedly when he's played (a bit more of a surprise). The hope was that Diaw would lay off the brie and arrive in shape … actually, that was hopeless from the start.

Unfortunately, most of what can go wrong has. But even if everything went right, this team was doomed to be terrible because of the moves of the past five seasons. From Larry Brown's arrival up until the middle of last season, virtually every Charlotte move ended up torching the 2011-12 roster.

While trading Tyson Chandler for Erick Dampier remains the piece de resistance (in a "salary dump," mind you, that saved no money), they've also had multiple draft tragedies highlighted by Alexis Ajinca and Adam Morrison, dealt a lottery pick in 2007 and had no first-rounders in 2009 or 2010.

And, of course, they've had no luck with stars. Gerald Wallace was the closest thing they've had to one, and the Bobcats rightly cashed in his stock at the trade deadline a year ago.

In other words, it isn't easy being this bad, which explains why only a couple of teams in the past seven decades can rival Charlotte's awfulness. And it may get worse before it gets better -- thanks to the "let's be average now rather than good later" mindset of the Brown era, the Bobcats still owe the Bulls a future first that becomes completely unprotected in 2016.

In the meantime, they still have three games to avoid the history books. As you might imagine, they'll be heavy underdogs in all three.

RECOMMEND13COMMENTS19EMAILPRINT

John Hollinger | email
ESPN Insider contributor
[close]
vjj

T-Short

  • hooker strangler
  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5047 on: April 24, 2012, 12:34:40 PM »
地平線

DJ_Tet

  • Senior Member
Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5048 on: April 24, 2012, 12:43:10 PM »
DJ Tet - Hollinger dissects the Bobcats, truly painful to read. Can't imagine how bad it was to watch

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sam Sharpe/US Presswire
Kemba Walker and the Bobcats have won just seven games this season.
Worst. Team. Ever.

With three games left, the Charlotte Bobcats are careening toward infamy. Losers of 20 straight, they stand at 7-56, and if they don't win one of their final three contests, their 7-59 mark would be the worst winning percentage in NBA history. Although it would not be the fewest wins in pro basketball history -- the Providence Steamrollers of the old BAA, featuring jump shot inventor Kenny Sailors, went 6-42 in 1947-48 -- by virtually any other standard this team has a strong claim on the title of worst ever.

Consider Sunday night, for instance, when the Bobcats lost to Sacramento … at home … by 26. Do you know how bad you have to be to get blown out at home by the Kings? Sacramento hadn't won a game by 26 points all season, had won one road game since the All-Star break and had only four double-digit wins in its previous 63 outings. My Power Rankings rate the Kings the league's fourth worst team, and they still completely outclassed the Cats.

Charlotte has three more chances to get a win, with the best hope seeming to be Monday's road game in Washington. Emphasis on "seeming" -- the Wizards have actually been a real basketball team for the past month or so, winning five of their past seven (including a 28-point romp in Charlotte) and all but eliminating Milwaukee with an upset win on Wednesday.

The other two games are in Orlando on Wednesday and the finale at home against the Knicks on Thursday. If Charlotte loses on Wednesday it'll probably play the Knicks' backups on Thursday -- an Orlando win eliminates New York's shot at the No. 6 seed -- and its best shot at the elusive eighth win may come against Jerome Jordan, Toney Douglas and the rest of the Knicks' bench.

In the meantime, let's look a little closer at the many levels of Charlotte's awfulness, starting with its staggeringly awful scoring margin.

The Bobcats have been outscored by 13.70 points per game this season; that's more than double the margin of the next worst team, Cleveland (-6.73). Of late they've redoubled their efforts; during the current 20-game losing streak, 14 of the defeats have been by double figures and an astounding nine have been by 20 points or more.

Amazingly, this isn't the worst scoring margin in NBA history, and it represents Charlotte's best argument for not being the worst team ever. The 1992-93 Mavericks went 11-71 and were outscored by 14.68 points per game; the only way the Bobcats can equal that is if they lose by a combined 106 points over the final three games. While I wouldn't put this past them, this is a tall order even for lowly Charlotte.

Charlotte is set to join that Mavs team in another category of awfulness: The Bobcats are on pace to finish last in both offensive and defensive efficiency. (The 1986-87 Clippers also managed this; in any debate about bad teams, you must never overlook the Clippers). Charlotte is virtually assured of finishing last in offense, with a mouth-dropping 92.4 mark that is five points worse than the next worst team. (Comparison point: five points is what separates No. 3 Denver from No. 20 Dallas). If you're looking for further lowlights, consider their appalling 48.5 team true shooting percentage -- basically, everybody shoots like Rajon Rondo, Terrence Williams or Sebastian Telfair.

On defense, however, they have some competition. Sacramento and New Jersey both stand just one point ahead of them; while it would require some pretty severe results to pass them over the course of just three Charlotte games and two apiece for the Kings and Nets, it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

And finally, there's this: at least Dallas had Derek Harper. Harper finished with a respectable 15.9 PER. And at least the 1972-73 Sixers had Fred Carter, as well as two other players who finished with a PER above the league average.

The Bobcats? You can make a credible argument that not one player on their roster would start for most teams.

Most notably, they're threatening to not have a single player with a PER above the league average of 15.00. Thanks to a late charge, rookie Kemba Walker has pushed his mark up to 15.28, which for the moment has him dangling over the precipice of respectability. He has three games not to screw it up.

The next closest Bobcat is Derrick Brown at 14.41. (If you're reading this, you're probably a big fan. But probably not so big that you know who Derrick Brown is, or what he looks like, or where he went to school. NBA players do not come more obscure than Derrick Brown).

Surprisingly, the Bobcats actually have a lot of halfway-decent, rotation-caliber players. Walker, Brown, D.J. Augustin, Corey Maggette, Byron Mullens, Gerald Henderson and Bismack Biyombo all are good enough to crack virtually any team's top nine. So was Boris Diaw, as he's proven in San Antonio. And D.J. White and Reggie Williams aren't terrible, either.

What ails the Cats more than anything, it seems, is their complete and total lack of star power, particularly on offense. The hope was that Tyrus Thomas could be something of a go-to guy, but he's been shockingly awful and frequently miscast as a small forward.

You can go through the roster with similar disappointments. The hope was that Augustin could build on his strong finish to last season, but he's proven to be no more than a decent backup. The hope was that Maggette could provide offense, but he's been injured half the year (not a surprise) and his effectiveness has declined markedly when he's played (a bit more of a surprise). The hope was that Diaw would lay off the brie and arrive in shape … actually, that was hopeless from the start.

Unfortunately, most of what can go wrong has. But even if everything went right, this team was doomed to be terrible because of the moves of the past five seasons. From Larry Brown's arrival up until the middle of last season, virtually every Charlotte move ended up torching the 2011-12 roster.

While trading Tyson Chandler for Erick Dampier remains the piece de resistance (in a "salary dump," mind you, that saved no money), they've also had multiple draft tragedies highlighted by Alexis Ajinca and Adam Morrison, dealt a lottery pick in 2007 and had no first-rounders in 2009 or 2010.

And, of course, they've had no luck with stars. Gerald Wallace was the closest thing they've had to one, and the Bobcats rightly cashed in his stock at the trade deadline a year ago.

In other words, it isn't easy being this bad, which explains why only a couple of teams in the past seven decades can rival Charlotte's awfulness. And it may get worse before it gets better -- thanks to the "let's be average now rather than good later" mindset of the Brown era, the Bobcats still owe the Bulls a future first that becomes completely unprotected in 2016.

In the meantime, they still have three games to avoid the history books. As you might imagine, they'll be heavy underdogs in all three.

Recommend13Comments19EmailPrint

John Hollinger | email
ESPN Insider contributor
FollowArchive
NBA Insider for ESPN.com since 2005
Developed PER, Pace Factor and other key metrics
Former author of "Pro Basketball Forecast"

ESPN Conversations
19
comments
+ Add your comment
View all comments

bigbaddave15
It's going to be a sad day if the Bobcats don't even get the 1st overall pick after all this, and that has been happening more often than not the past few years (the worst team doesn't end up drawing the 1st pick)
1 fan likes this.
5 Hours Ago
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COMMENTARY
Just how bad are the Bobcats?
Charlotte needs a win to avoid the history books (PER Diem: April 23, 2012)
Updated: April 23, 2012, 11:44 AM ET
By John Hollinger | ESPN.com
13
19
EMAIL
PRINT

Sam Sharpe/US Presswire
Kemba Walker and the Bobcats have won just seven games this season.
Worst. Team. Ever.

With three games left, the Charlotte Bobcats are careening toward infamy. Losers of 20 straight, they stand at 7-56, and if they don't win one of their final three contests, their 7-59 mark would be the worst winning percentage in NBA history. Although it would not be the fewest wins in pro basketball history -- the Providence Steamrollers of the old BAA, featuring jump shot inventor Kenny Sailors, went 6-42 in 1947-48 -- by virtually any other standard this team has a strong claim on the title of worst ever.

Consider Sunday night, for instance, when the Bobcats lost to Sacramento … at home … by 26. Do you know how bad you have to be to get blown out at home by the Kings? Sacramento hadn't won a game by 26 points all season, had won one road game since the All-Star break and had only four double-digit wins in its previous 63 outings. My Power Rankings rate the Kings the league's fourth worst team, and they still completely outclassed the Cats.

Charlotte has three more chances to get a win, with the best hope seeming to be Monday's road game in Washington. Emphasis on "seeming" -- the Wizards have actually been a real basketball team for the past month or so, winning five of their past seven (including a 28-point romp in Charlotte) and all but eliminating Milwaukee with an upset win on Wednesday.

The other two games are in Orlando on Wednesday and the finale at home against the Knicks on Thursday. If Charlotte loses on Wednesday it'll probably play the Knicks' backups on Thursday -- an Orlando win eliminates New York's shot at the No. 6 seed -- and its best shot at the elusive eighth win may come against Jerome Jordan, Toney Douglas and the rest of the Knicks' bench.

In the meantime, let's look a little closer at the many levels of Charlotte's awfulness, starting with its staggeringly awful scoring margin.

The Bobcats have been outscored by 13.70 points per game this season; that's more than double the margin of the next worst team, Cleveland (-6.73). Of late they've redoubled their efforts; during the current 20-game losing streak, 14 of the defeats have been by double figures and an astounding nine have been by 20 points or more.

Amazingly, this isn't the worst scoring margin in NBA history, and it represents Charlotte's best argument for not being the worst team ever. The 1992-93 Mavericks went 11-71 and were outscored by 14.68 points per game; the only way the Bobcats can equal that is if they lose by a combined 106 points over the final three games. While I wouldn't put this past them, this is a tall order even for lowly Charlotte.

Charlotte is set to join that Mavs team in another category of awfulness: The Bobcats are on pace to finish last in both offensive and defensive efficiency. (The 1986-87 Clippers also managed this; in any debate about bad teams, you must never overlook the Clippers). Charlotte is virtually assured of finishing last in offense, with a mouth-dropping 92.4 mark that is five points worse than the next worst team. (Comparison point: five points is what separates No. 3 Denver from No. 20 Dallas). If you're looking for further lowlights, consider their appalling 48.5 team true shooting percentage -- basically, everybody shoots like Rajon Rondo, Terrence Williams or Sebastian Telfair.

On defense, however, they have some competition. Sacramento and New Jersey both stand just one point ahead of them; while it would require some pretty severe results to pass them over the course of just three Charlotte games and two apiece for the Kings and Nets, it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

And finally, there's this: at least Dallas had Derek Harper. Harper finished with a respectable 15.9 PER. And at least the 1972-73 Sixers had Fred Carter, as well as two other players who finished with a PER above the league average.

The Bobcats? You can make a credible argument that not one player on their roster would start for most teams.

Most notably, they're threatening to not have a single player with a PER above the league average of 15.00. Thanks to a late charge, rookie Kemba Walker has pushed his mark up to 15.28, which for the moment has him dangling over the precipice of respectability. He has three games not to screw it up.

The next closest Bobcat is Derrick Brown at 14.41. (If you're reading this, you're probably a big fan. But probably not so big that you know who Derrick Brown is, or what he looks like, or where he went to school. NBA players do not come more obscure than Derrick Brown).

Surprisingly, the Bobcats actually have a lot of halfway-decent, rotation-caliber players. Walker, Brown, D.J. Augustin, Corey Maggette, Byron Mullens, Gerald Henderson and Bismack Biyombo all are good enough to crack virtually any team's top nine. So was Boris Diaw, as he's proven in San Antonio. And D.J. White and Reggie Williams aren't terrible, either.

What ails the Cats more than anything, it seems, is their complete and total lack of star power, particularly on offense. The hope was that Tyrus Thomas could be something of a go-to guy, but he's been shockingly awful and frequently miscast as a small forward.

You can go through the roster with similar disappointments. The hope was that Augustin could build on his strong finish to last season, but he's proven to be no more than a decent backup. The hope was that Maggette could provide offense, but he's been injured half the year (not a surprise) and his effectiveness has declined markedly when he's played (a bit more of a surprise). The hope was that Diaw would lay off the brie and arrive in shape … actually, that was hopeless from the start.

Unfortunately, most of what can go wrong has. But even if everything went right, this team was doomed to be terrible because of the moves of the past five seasons. From Larry Brown's arrival up until the middle of last season, virtually every Charlotte move ended up torching the 2011-12 roster.

While trading Tyson Chandler for Erick Dampier remains the piece de resistance (in a "salary dump," mind you, that saved no money), they've also had multiple draft tragedies highlighted by Alexis Ajinca and Adam Morrison, dealt a lottery pick in 2007 and had no first-rounders in 2009 or 2010.

And, of course, they've had no luck with stars. Gerald Wallace was the closest thing they've had to one, and the Bobcats rightly cashed in his stock at the trade deadline a year ago.

In other words, it isn't easy being this bad, which explains why only a couple of teams in the past seven decades can rival Charlotte's awfulness. And it may get worse before it gets better -- thanks to the "let's be average now rather than good later" mindset of the Brown era, the Bobcats still owe the Bulls a future first that becomes completely unprotected in 2016.

In the meantime, they still have three games to avoid the history books. As you might imagine, they'll be heavy underdogs in all three.

RECOMMEND13COMMENTS19EMAILPRINT

John Hollinger | email
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Thanks for the article.  I used to begrudge fans as a kid that left early.  Now I begrudge no one who spends their money to watch these games.  If you want to leave more power to you.

No one should have to sit through this shit.  During the Kings game we left at the end of the 3rd to go have some dinner.  A lot of people have stopped showing up.

I not only know what Derrick Brown looks like, I know he went to Xavier and was sad when we traded him last year.  Glad we got him back, he's been one of the few bright spots, and the ONLY 2nd round draft pick the Bobcats have ever had that worked out into an NBA player.

edit:  Just a quick look at one of the Bobcats main problems.  The starting PG DJ Augustin has been battling knee and foot problems all year, leading him to miss about 1/3rd of the season and have his worst season shooting as a pro.  That left us with a PG rotation consisting of rookie combo guard Kemba Walker with undrafted rookie Corey Higgins as his backup.  Corey's main claim to fame is that his dad is Bobcats player personnel/VP Rod Higgins.  I call him Nepo, Jr.  He's horrible and wouldn't be on another roster, and he's a combo guard too who can't pass.  That's just the start but seeing how PG is the most important position a lot of our defensive issues start there.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 01:10:10 PM by DJ_Tet »
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5049 on: April 24, 2012, 05:41:02 PM »
Don't fuck with Fisher when the game is on the line. dayumm
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Joe Molotov

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5050 on: April 24, 2012, 05:50:06 PM »
Billy Hunter just can't help it that his DNA somehow produces people perfect for handling NBPA business!
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Flannel Boy

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5051 on: April 24, 2012, 09:34:04 PM »
Seven games? meh

In unrelated news, I'm changing my name to Metta Has Sex a Lot

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5052 on: April 24, 2012, 09:46:34 PM »
sadly ronartest.com is down so we can't see his no-doubt amazing statement about it. He has promised a podcast later though!
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5053 on: April 25, 2012, 12:54:53 AM »
Attn: pilonv1

Bay Area Sports Guy ‏ @BASportsGuy  Reply  Retweet  Favorited · Open
There's poetry, and there's the Warriors goaltending on a last-second Marco Belinelli layup to lose to the 21-44 Hornets.

:rofl

I'm actually going to check this out on LP now to see just how blatant it was
vjj

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5054 on: April 25, 2012, 01:22:05 AM »
Quote
In an odd scene, many Warriors fans were actually cheering for the Hornets.

Golden State has to finish in the bottom seven of the league after the draft lottery to keep its protected first-round pick, acquired by Utah in a previous trade. The Warriors are eighth-worst in the league entering Thursday night's season finale at home against San Antonio.

But yeah, the Bobcats are tanking  ::)
TIT

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5055 on: April 25, 2012, 01:39:44 AM »
Dwight Howard redeemed, JJ was never my favorite dookie and now I know he's just a shithead.  Won't be fretting when he gets booed in Charlotte anymore, bitter little shit.  Way to nut in the tournament EVERY FUCKING YEAR JJ you fucking douche.

Quote
When I ask Tyler about his worst personal moment, his expression turns bitter for the first and only time all day. It was during the Super Fans era, he says, when a small group walked by the court while the Orlando Magic were stretching. J.J. Redick saw them in their wigs and overalls and other paraphernalia.3

"You guys look ridiculous," he said. Once you meet Tyler and see the pride he takes in his identity as a Bobcats fan, this remark seems almost unimaginably cruel. His natural enthusiasm is gone while he tells the story. But then he gets to the part where Dwight Howard and a couple other members of the Magic came to their defense by saying, "you look ridiculous, J.J. Those are basketball fans," and the smile is back.


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7849198/the-scene-charlotte-bobcats-flirt-worst-record-nba-history
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pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5056 on: April 25, 2012, 05:57:02 AM »
Attn: pilonv1

Bay Area Sports Guy ‏ @BASportsGuy  Reply  Retweet  Favorited · Open
There's poetry, and there's the Warriors goaltending on a last-second Marco Belinelli layup to lose to the 21-44 Hornets.

:rofl

I'm actually going to check this out on LP now to see just how blatant it was

Wasn't that bad honestly



The shots before were dumber.
itm

Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5057 on: April 25, 2012, 03:07:55 PM »
Game on the night of this final regular season. New York at Charlotte on TNT.

Quote
This season's Charlotte team is 7-57, has lost 21 straight and needs to defeat the Magic Wednesday or the Knicks on Thursday to avoid going into the record books as the owner of the league's worst-ever winning percentage. The 1972-73 Philadelphia 76ers hold the mark at .110, going 9-73 in that full season, but a 7-59 finish in this strike-shortened season would leave the Bobcats at .106.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5058 on: April 25, 2012, 03:10:09 PM »
Quote
"It's one thing for me to get fired, but I have four or five assistants and they're out there not able to work," said the 71-year-old Brown, who was named SMU coach this week. "And it was the worst. And when your hero fires you... I just couldn't believe it. You know I love the guy, think he's brilliant, but he's around people who don't have a clue. And they won't challenge him. And the more you challenge him, the more you get from him.

"I was sick about it. I haven't spoken to him since. I don't like seeing what's going on."

In 2009-10, Brown guided the Bobcats to a 44-38 record and their only playoff appearance. After a slow start the next season, Jordan replaced Brown with Paul Silas. That team finished 34-48.

"I'm sick about it because we made the playoffs the first time they ever made the playoffs. We got rid of Raymond Felton without getting anything back -- one of the greatest kids I ever coached in my life. We got rid of Tyson Chandler who only played 50 games or so for us."

Jordan has been blasted for some of his personnel moves over the years, infamously drafting high schooler Kwame Brown No. 1 when he was in the Washington Wizards' front office.

Brown says it's not a lack of knowledge of the game that hurts Jordan.

"When I was able to visit with him and pick his brain, he knows, but he's got people around him that just make you sick," Brown said to Patrick. "And it was not comfortable. It was almost like there were spies wondering what you were doing and getting back to him. I should have spent more time face to face with Michael because I do see the passion. I think he's hurt right now.

"We all make bad decisions. This draft thing is not a perfect science, but when I talk to him about players, you know strengths and weaknesses, what we need to do to be successful, he's right on point. But he has all these other people that will get in the way, and you can't do it like that."
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7853845/larry-brown-wanted-more-michael-jordan-time-charlotte-bobcats

I tend to get the impression Jordan simply doesn't do his homework, not that he's surrounded by idiots; obviously both can be true. Basically the basketball Matt Millen
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Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5059 on: April 25, 2012, 03:14:18 PM »
Just because he's Jordan doesn't mean he's anymore likely to coach a winner, gm a winner, or own a winner. Being a great player has little in relation to job skills to those other things.

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5060 on: April 25, 2012, 03:19:06 PM »
Larry Brown quit on the team, anything else is revisionist history from Larry Brown.  That said, he's a great coach with a shitty track record and I pretty much got exactly what I expected when we hired him.  A few good years, a playoff run, and ultimately him leaving/getting fired in an ugly manner.  That's all a reflection on Brown and not the owner, it's been his MO for decades.

The final game might be interesting, there is a group of Hornets fans who came to one game earlier this year and are planning on coming to that game as well.  Will be interesting to see if their chants can be heard on the national tv broadcast or if there is any mention of it.  'We want our name back.  Charlotte Hornets' etc etc.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5061 on: April 25, 2012, 03:21:32 PM »
You're right Stoney, and there is plenty of evidence for that (again, Matt Millen). I do think he generally understands the game, but that doesn't mean he can make good personnel decisions. I can't imagine him in the film room or at college games scouting players.
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DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5062 on: April 25, 2012, 03:28:04 PM »
Jordan wasn't the only one who would have taken Kwame #1, he was a consensus #1 pick that year.  He also wasn't the only person high on Adam Morrison (hi Bill Simmons.)

A lot of revisionist history there.  Biggest mistake the Bobcats made in the draft came before Jordan was around, when we won extra games while other teams were tanking and blew our chance to get Paul or Deron Williams.  And then, we were still offered the chance to trade up one spot for Paul by giving up #5 and #13 (Felton and May) but decided not to do it.

As much as I liked Paul in college, I thought Felton would be a star as well.  At the time I didn't think moving up one spot was in our best interest, that said I was pissed when we drafted May.

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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5063 on: April 25, 2012, 03:42:37 PM »
Jordan wasn't the only one who would have taken Kwame #1, he was a consensus #1 pick that year.  He also wasn't the only person high on Adam Morrison (hi Bill Simmons.)

A lot of revisionist history there.  Biggest mistake the Bobcats made in the draft came before Jordan was around, when we won extra games while other teams were tanking and blew our chance to get Paul or Deron Williams.  And then, we were still offered the chance to trade up one spot for Paul by giving up #5 and #13 (Felton and May) but decided not to do it.

As much as I liked Paul in college, I thought Felton would be a star as well.  At the time I didn't think moving up one spot was in our best interest, that said I was pissed when we drafted May.

Yea it's hard to fault that pick. Looking back at 2001 scouts were big on more than a few HS and international players who didn't pan out. Still, I think Brown could have been somewhat decent if he had been developed more effective. Look at Andrew Bynum; if he wasn't with the Lakers or another organization who put the work in to develop him, he'd probably be a bust by now too.

So while I give Jordan slack there, I can't give him any for Morrison. He didn't play a minute of defense in college and there was debate on whether he could create his own shot against bigger/more athletic teams. Gonzaga had a pretty average schedule during his junior year iirc. Indiana kind of exposed him in the tournament, and while he played well in his final game he didn't take over.
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DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5064 on: April 25, 2012, 03:45:50 PM »
I wasn't crazy about the Morrison pick either but the other main consideration was Brandon Roy who already retired cause of the knees that caused him to fall in the draft.  That draft was pretty shitty.

Morrison actually had a few decent games in his rookie year, went off for 30 in a win in San Antonio and had a few other games where he scored a ton.  His main downfall besides smoking, being diabetic and not giving a shit about his health, was that he blew out his knee in the preseason of his second year.  Robbed him of any lateral quickness and made him into a spot shooter.  He lost his confidence and that was that.


edit:  Kwame was actually very serviceable last year for the Bobcats, I was sad we didn't keep him around.  He chased the money to be a back up in Golden State, can't fault him but he got injured and will never see a $7 mil contract again.  He could have played a TON of minutes in Charlotte this year, he should have stayed.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5065 on: April 25, 2012, 03:47:59 PM »
I wasn't crazy about the Morrison pick either but the other main consideration was Brandon Roy who already retired cause of the knees that caused him to fall in the draft.  That draft was pretty shitty.

Morrison actually had a few decent games in his rookie year, went off for 30 in a win in San Antonio and had a few other games where he scored a ton.  His main downfall besides smoking, being diabetic and not giving a shit about his health, was that he blew out his knee in the preseason of his second year.  Robbed him of any lateral quickness and made him into a spot shooter.  He lost his confidence and that was that.


edit:  Kwame was actually very serviceable last year for the Bobcats, I was sad we didn't keep him around.  He chased the money to be a back up in Golden State, can't fault him but he got injured and will never see a $7 mil contract again.  He could have played a TON of minutes in Charlotte this year, he should have stayed.

While I never thought Morrison would be good, I would have NEVER guessed JJ Reddick would have a significantly better NBA career than him.
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DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5066 on: April 25, 2012, 03:54:43 PM »
I wouldn't have either.  As a Duke fan I absolutely did NOT want JJ on my team.  I knew he would have a decent career as a backup but he's exceeded my expectations.

Here's the 2006 draft:

3: Morrison
4: Tyrus Thomas  :lol
5: Sheldon Williams  :lol
6: Roy
7: Randy Foye :lol
8: Rudy Gay
9 Patrick O'Bryant  :lol :lol :lol
10: Mohamed Sene  :lol :lol :lol
11: JJ Redick
12: Hilton Armstrong  :lol :lol :lol
13: Thabo Sefalosha


Wow that's a shitty draft.  With the exception of Roy, Gay, Redick, Thomas, Sefalosha and Foye, Morrison was still the best damn player. 


Best player was Rondo at 21, but you can't really count that as a 'miss' on Jordan.  There will always be guys that low that exceed expectations.  You can only really compare guys drafted right around the #3 pick, top two were Aldridge and Bargnini.  So if it wasn't Jordan busting on Morrison it would have been someone else.  Barkley said he advised Jordan to take Roy, and I know Roy was considered, but at the time we still had high hopes for Felton and were concerned with Roy's knees.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 03:58:09 PM by DJ_Tet »
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Stoney Mason

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5067 on: April 25, 2012, 08:04:43 PM »
lulz. I just realized I went through the entire day thinking it was thursday. That bobcats game is tomorrow.

Joe Molotov

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5068 on: April 25, 2012, 09:50:38 PM »
They lost by single digits tonight, pretty amazing stuff.
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etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5069 on: April 25, 2012, 09:56:42 PM »
Lakers/Kings tomorrow. I think there will be some protests planned regarding the Magoofs. Curious to see if any Sell the Team chants make it onto the air or if it just slides into Beat LA chants as usual.

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5070 on: April 26, 2012, 06:25:09 PM »
Any Laker or Celtic fan could watch their team win a title, I'm about to go watch HISTORY tonight fellas.


 :'(
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pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5071 on: April 26, 2012, 09:12:33 PM »
some ridiculous tanking going on today
itm

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5072 on: April 26, 2012, 09:14:14 PM »
The Kings could follow to 7th spot in the draft if they win tonight.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5073 on: April 26, 2012, 10:06:21 PM »
I hope they do, for the same reason I don't want the Bobcats to get a high pick (already went through this with DJ Tet. Sorry but that's still how I feel). They just don't deserve it. Any great player who goes either of those places is going to basically waste 4-5 years of their career.
vjj

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5074 on: April 26, 2012, 11:05:34 PM »
Lakers trying to screw the Kings draft luck over by sending out their Bobcats squad.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5075 on: April 26, 2012, 11:15:14 PM »
Another test of Kobe's maturity and veteran leadership tonight - will he kill Mike Brown by getting injured in his 42nd minute of play while taking 35 shots in an attempt to beat out Durant for the scoring title? :o
vjj

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5076 on: April 26, 2012, 11:17:08 PM »
The Kings could follow to 7th spot in the draft if they win tonight.

The lowest they can go is 6th. If the Warriors win they're tied for 7th with Toronto, Kings would be tied with Nets for 5th if they win

Bobcats  7-59
Wizards 20-44
Hornets 21-45
Cavs 21-45
Kings 22-44
Nets 22-44
Raptors 23-43
Warriors 23-43 (if they lose)

If the Kings lose they'll be tied 3rd with the Hornets and Cavs.
itm

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5077 on: April 26, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »
I just realized: JaVale McGee in the playoffs, whoo hoo

Fire up your youtubes gentlemen

Also, good night and good luck to Brad Miller, one of the most entertaining centers I've seen. Peace out and kill some motherfuckin' deer homeboy
vjj

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5078 on: April 26, 2012, 11:25:31 PM »
You can enjoy watching his 2010s version then - Byron Mullens :teehee
itm

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5079 on: April 26, 2012, 11:29:11 PM »
Nope, apparently Kobe sat out. Props where they're due!

Celtics finish 24-10 since the All-Star break. Not many teams are categorically playing better!
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5080 on: April 26, 2012, 11:43:50 PM »
Al Horford out for the whole of round 1, Pachulia in a walking boot unf unf
vjj

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5081 on: April 27, 2012, 12:08:13 AM »
Celtics finish 24-10 since the All-Star break. Not many teams are categorically playing better!

Besides the Wizards. :smug

Beezy

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Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5083 on: April 27, 2012, 12:32:58 AM »
yeah, uh, see you in the Conf Finals there beezy :teehee
vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5084 on: April 27, 2012, 12:42:42 AM »
So, pretty cruddy regular season, as expected. First month was a write-off with all the weird line-ups, no practices, the occasional out of shape player, everyone getting used to back-to-back-to-backs on the road etc...and the last 2-3 weeks have been Tankapalooza vs Restzilla.

But let's accentuate the positive! What were your favorite games of the regular season (so I can go back and check them out on LP! :lol)? I think I'm gonna have to go with the Minnesota-OKC 2OT thrilla.
vjj

pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5085 on: April 27, 2012, 01:33:18 AM »
tank stage 1 successful
stage 2 11am tomorrow
final stage draft lottery
itm

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5086 on: April 27, 2012, 01:37:23 AM »
The Kings could follow to 7th spot in the draft if they win tonight.

The lowest they can go is 6th. If the Warriors win they're tied for 7th with Toronto, Kings would be tied with Nets for 5th if they win

Bobcats  7-59
Wizards 20-44
Hornets 21-45
Cavs 21-45
Kings 22-44
Nets 22-44
Raptors 23-43
Warriors 23-43 (if they lose)

If the Kings lose they'll be tied 3rd with the Hornets and Cavs.

Unfortunately, the Kings really needed one of the defensive guys that will go top 4.

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Will the Bobcats win again this season?)
« Reply #5087 on: April 27, 2012, 01:40:07 AM »
I hope they do, for the same reason I don't want the Bobcats to get a high pick (already went through this with DJ Tet. Sorry but that's still how I feel). They just don't deserve it. Any great player who goes either of those places is going to basically waste 4-5 years of their career.

Sorry but that's still bullshit.

Did you feel that way when LeBron went to Cleveland?
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pilonv1

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5088 on: April 27, 2012, 01:46:07 AM »
Reke + Kings pick to the Wizards for #2.
itm

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5089 on: April 27, 2012, 01:50:19 AM »
They don't 'deserve' it  :lol

Fucking insular league.  If we don't 'deserve' it maybe they should just contract back to 8 franchises.  Sorry but that shit pisses me off.  Without fans like me the NBA would have some serious fucking problems.  And you wouldn't have 15 games to watch every night on your precious League Pass.

We had the worst winning percentage of all time.  We didn't openly tank.  We led the league in attendance for a decade and they still ripped our team away.

We fucking deserve something.


edit:  Sacramento has hard-core fans that support a shitty franchise for a long time as well.  But no, they don't 'deserve' a good pick.  Just put Davis on the Lakers or Celtics and be done with it  :lol
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 01:54:16 AM by DJ_Tet »
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etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5090 on: April 27, 2012, 01:57:56 AM »
Reke + Kings pick to the Wizards for #2.

A Wall/Evans backcourt :lol

I would watch for the hilarity.

So the Kings actually finished with a better winning percentage than they had last year or the two years before that, which is surprising considering all the fuckups in the past year. They ended up 16-17 at home and otherwise awful on the road.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 02:08:58 AM by etiolate »

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5091 on: April 27, 2012, 02:05:13 AM »
I hope they do, for the same reason I don't want the Bobcats to get a high pick (already went through this with DJ Tet. Sorry but that's still how I feel). They just don't deserve it. Any great player who goes either of those places is going to basically waste 4-5 years of their career.

Sorry but that's still bullshit.

Did you feel that way when LeBron went to Cleveland?

Cleveland made more of an effort to keep some quality players around over the years than the Bobcats have done.

It has nothing to do with the loyalty of the fans, or what they deserve. By that token, sure, the Bobcats and the Kings would deserve great picks every year (but so would the Lakers and the Knicks!)

 It's about what the organization will do to the player. I don't want to see LeBron going to Cleveland or Blake Griffin on the Clippers or Davis going to the Bobcats - I want them on teams that can cultivate their talent to the fullest - the Texas teams, for instance.  The Bobcats haven't shown they can do that.
vjj

etiolate

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5092 on: April 27, 2012, 02:12:00 AM »
Losing organizations look bad because of the superstar system. If you let potential superstars go where they please straight out of college, you might as well kill off the league.  The horrible tanking is a product of the league's issues as a whole. If assembling a lot of good talent with good draft picks and good FA signings was a legit way to win a title then you wouldn't have a quarter of the league tanking every year. There is only two ways to build a contender. Win the lottery or be a big market that has players force their way to you. It's fucked up.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5093 on: April 27, 2012, 02:26:45 AM »
Winning the lottery has historically been proven to be a terrible strategy, actually. Everyone is high on it right now because of OKC but historically, it doesn't work out very well.

vjj

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5094 on: April 27, 2012, 02:28:52 AM »
I could go on about this stuff all day but I'd just be quoting True Hoop's excellent series of posts on fixing tanking and the draft really.

It also occurs to me that Euro soccer at least has no draft and yet has become the biggest sport in the world.
vjj

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5095 on: April 27, 2012, 02:31:49 AM »
As a soccer and basketball fan, I can't but laugh when people complain about NBA players having too much leverage over where they play.

Try a league with no draft, no salary cap, a no-trade clause for every player, and contracts that are renegotiated from scratch whenever a player moves.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5096 on: April 27, 2012, 02:36:05 AM »
Indeed.

Would also love to hear etiolate tell me whether Dallas last year was a lottery winner, or a big market team that players forced their way to. I mean, I could go back through the past decade of 'contenders' but I don't think I even have to go very far to utterly refute that. Nobody was forcing their way to the Pistons either. Boston traded for KG and Allen and drafted Rondo very low. Kobe was drafted at #7 or something, Pau they traded for and Bynum was drafted low. Good organizations, all.
vjj

Mandark

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5097 on: April 27, 2012, 03:04:04 AM »
It's not as if there's a strict dichotomy between the teams players flock to and the teams they leave, either.  Orlando might lose both Shaq and Dwight, but they got T-Mac and Grant Hill when both were blue chip free agents.

Cormacaroni

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5098 on: April 27, 2012, 03:11:04 AM »
The Spurs year-in, year-out, fill out their roster with guys I've never heard of and somehow turn them into highly efficient and productive players (or create the illusion of doing so, by putting them in a role that fits the talents they always had....). Teams like the Bobcats and the Kings take high draft picks and trade for expensive players and turn them into shit, again and again.
vjj

DJ_Tet

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Re: The NBA thread (Playoffs edition)
« Reply #5099 on: April 27, 2012, 03:15:57 AM »
I hope they do, for the same reason I don't want the Bobcats to get a high pick (already went through this with DJ Tet. Sorry but that's still how I feel). They just don't deserve it. Any great player who goes either of those places is going to basically waste 4-5 years of their career.

Sorry but that's still bullshit.

Did you feel that way when LeBron went to Cleveland?

Cleveland made more of an effort to keep some quality players around over the years than the Bobcats have done.

It has nothing to do with the loyalty of the fans, or what they deserve. By that token, sure, the Bobcats and the Kings would deserve great picks every year (but so would the Lakers and the Knicks!)

 It's about what the organization will do to the player. I don't want to see LeBron going to Cleveland or Blake Griffin on the Clippers or Davis going to the Bobcats - I want them on teams that can cultivate their talent to the fullest - the Texas teams, for instance.  The Bobcats haven't shown they can do that.

Before LeBron Cleveland was a wasteland of talent for nearly a decade.  You talk about the Spurs and the Rockets, and those two franchises are to be commended.  But where would the Spurs have been without getting Duncan in the lottery?  Would they have been able to keep Ginobli and Parker?  Does it not take a little luck to get players like that deep in the draft?

What about DeJuan Blair?  That guy was considered a borderline lottery pick but fell to the second round.  Convenient.

You talk about the Rockets, but they missed the playoffs this year.  So much for nothing.  And like we've been over before, you discount the fact that they too got a franchise center at the top of the draft.

None of these teams were built of a strong farm system like you can do with baseball, every team you mention won the lottery at some point or another.  Bobcats have never had the #1 pick. 
TIT