Author Topic: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics  (Read 1856020 times)

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brawndolicious

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6840 on: December 13, 2009, 06:08:43 PM »
ohhhhh........shit.

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6841 on: December 13, 2009, 06:39:15 PM »
You know what's awesome?  Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman are apparently against the latest compromise in the health care bill in the Senate... even though they helped negotiate it!

At this point, I'm pretty much ready to concede that America is incapable of self-governance.  Maybe it would be for the best if the Chinese took us over and straightened us out.
yar

Boogie

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6842 on: December 13, 2009, 06:45:32 PM »
We're willing to make you our 11th province.

Or, y'know, we'll just go back to this old standby:

MMA

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6843 on: December 13, 2009, 10:52:36 PM »
You can't cure stupid.
yar

Boogie

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6844 on: December 13, 2009, 11:16:24 PM »
It's always something like "I like my health care."

But what about your fucking next door neighboor who just lost his job? What if he gets hit by a car tomorrow? WTF will he do then?

"Why should I have to pay to take care of his problem?"

There's no Picard gif big enough for this kind of shit.

It's the kind of fucking greed and complete lack of compassion that makes me hate conservatives so much. People who would rather lay off 500 employees than lose a dollar off their company's stock price. People who don't give a fuck about their neighbors who can't see a doctor without going bankrupt because we have this ridiculous idea that health care should be tied to a job or privately funded. Asshole stockholders who demand that their company's managers lay off 25% of the workforce rather than accepting a temporary reduction in profits. Douchebag bankers who have the gall to give themselves multimillion dollar bonuses after their companies wreaked havoc on the American middle class.

Sometimes I think I should just stay in Korea permanently.

The worst to me is my aunt living in California, who relays to me all of the absolutely false, slanderous shit that Republicans spout about health care in Canada.  Like, literally, the most insane lies you can think of, and everyone laps it up, and my aunt is forced to correcting and educating everyone against the propaganda machine.
MMA

The Fake Shemp

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6845 on: December 13, 2009, 11:35:32 PM »
Health care in Canada is horrible! All the health care is rationed and you have to wait hours in the emergency room while you die! If you need emergency surgery, you go on a waiting list - while you die! You can't pick your doctor! The health care is substandard to American health care! You don't get proper diagnostic tests!

Canada is a death trap!
PSP

Phoenix Dark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6846 on: December 13, 2009, 11:39:21 PM »
Soo Lieberman now says he's going to filibuster the bill if it has a medicare buy-in (for people 55-64).
Quote
It's starting to seem like it may just be better for Dems to try to make a deal with Olympia Snowe, kick Joe Lieberman out of the party and be done with it. The leadership in the senate thought that Lieberman was on board with the latest compromise. But in an appearance on Face the Nation and later in a sit-down with Sen. Reid, Lieberman said he'd join the Republican filibuster if the Medicare buy-in remained in the bill.

What's most telling about Lieberman isn't his positions, which are not that much different from Sen. Nelson's and perhaps Sen. Lincoln's. It's more that he seems to keep upping the ante just when the rest of the caucus thinks they've got a deal.

If it happened once, a misunderstanding might be a credible explanation. But it's happened too many times. Sen. Nelson has driven Dems to distraction on this bill. But his demands have been fairly consistent over time. Lieberman just doesn't seem to be negotiating in good faith. He keeps pulling his caucus to some new compromise, waiting a few days and then saying he can't agree to that either.

It's coming to a breaking point.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/12/lieberman_again.php?ref=fpblg

He can play this game forever. They'll keep watering shit down and before you know it, 2010 is here
010

Boogie

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6847 on: December 14, 2009, 12:02:21 AM »
Fuck Lieberman, fuck him up his droopy dog ass.

I'm with Triumph.

gg, America, you had a good run.  Damn shame you're going to take half the world down with you.
MMA

Oblivion

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6848 on: December 14, 2009, 12:20:24 AM »
It's always something like "I like my health care."

But what about your fucking next door neighboor who just lost his job? What if he gets hit by a car tomorrow? WTF will he do then?

"Why should I have to pay to take care of his problem?"

The funny thing is, if they end up filing bankruptcy, he'll end up paying for it anyway, unless he think that the hospitals don't mind eating the costs.

Quote
The worst to me is my aunt living in California, who relays to me all of the absolutely false, slanderous shit that Republicans spout about health care in Canada.  Like, literally, the most insane lies you can think of, and everyone laps it up, and my aunt is forced to correcting and educating everyone against the propaganda machine.

BUT DO YOU REALLY WANT A GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRAT MOOSE TO COME BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR DOCTOR?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 12:21:57 AM by Oblivion »

Phoenix Dark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6849 on: December 14, 2009, 12:25:30 AM »
Quote
In a move that senior leadership aides say has left them stunned, Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) has told Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) that he will filibuster a tentative public option compromise unless it's stripped of its key component: a measure that would allow people aged 55-64 to buy insurance through Medicare.

The development casts substantial doubt on whether or not a health care reform bill can pass in the Senate, and even more doubt on whether a bill that does pass the Senate will be reconcilable with substantially more progressive House legislation in such a way that a final reform package can once again pass in both chambers of Congress.

Lieberman told Reid this afternoon, after a contentious appearance on Face the Nation, that he's a "no" vote on the new compromise unless the Medicare buy-in is stripped, and he's not even waiting for the CBO to weigh in--a move one leadership aide described as "extremely unfair."

What makes the new turn even more outlandish in the eyes of leadership and others is that Lieberman ran for Vice President on a platform that included a Medicare buy-in for people not-yet eligible for the program. Last week, he and Reid clashed when Lieberman began raising less definitive objections to the plan.

This afternoon, on Face the Nation, Lieberman said that, to get 60 votes, "You've got to take out the Medicare buy-in. You've got to forget about the public option. You probably have to take out the Class Act, which was a whole new entitlement program that will, in future years, put us further into deficit. And you've got to adopt some of the cost containment provisions that will strengthen cost containment, that all of us favor."

Soon thereafter came the confrontation in Reid's office, and that's left the prospects of the Medicare buy-in--and the greater reform bill--very much in doubt.

On Friday, Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-ME) told me and other reporters that she opposes the Medicare buy-in but, when pressed, did not make an explicit filibuster threat, saying instead that she'd make her final decision when CBO weighs in. A report is expected early this week.

This past Wednesday, Sen. Ben Nelson (D-NE)--who is now skeptical of the Medicare buy-in proposal--was singing a somewhat different tune. Though he insisted his ultimate support for the public option compromise was contingent on a passing CBO score, he told me that he and other health care principals liked the idea in theory. "I'm not aware of anything that was raising serious objections about it, I think it was about, 'Well, that sounds okay, let's see how it scores,'" Nelson said.

The very next day, he told reporters he was concerned the Medicare buy-in would become a vehicle for single-payer, and cast doubt on its ultimate viability. "I wouldn't be surprised if this thing does not become a viable option," Nelson said. "I think it is going to be the lesser of the popular things, but I am keeping an open mind."

I asked him about his swift change in tone late Friday.

"Conceptually, I am concerned about the Medicare buy-in, the more I've thought about it," Nelson said. "I think the numbers will be very disturbing if for no other reason you already have underpayment in Medicare right now for providers, so shoring that up has to be accomplished--where does the money come from and what have you."

With Lieberman out, and with Snowe and Nelson leaning no, that leaves Reid shy of the 60 votes he needs to seal the deal.

So what happens if he strips the buy-in? That may do him no good. Sen. Roland Burris (D-IL) has suggested he'll filibuster a bill without a viable public option, and Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) has said he can not support a bill that includes only private insurance options for consumers, who will be required to have insurance under the terms of the legislation.

And even if their cloture votes can be won, it's not at all clear if a health care bill with no public option and no Medicare buy-in can pass in the House. In other words, it's going to be a long week. Stay tuned.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/health-care-reform-in-peril.php

Holy fucking shit. This is the same fucktard Obama campaigned for in 2006. The same fucktard who's head was taken off the chopping block by Obama last November. Obama has supported him for years, yet Lieberman stabs him in the back whenever he's given a chance. I can understand him not supporting various policies, but actively working to throw a monkey wrench into the process - whether it's by campaigning for the republican presidential candidate or attempting to destroy the most important legislation of your caucus - is beyond ridiculous and downright distinguished mentally-challenged.

In a perfect world the dems would kick this fucker out the party and nuke the filibuster. But that's not going to happen.
010

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #6850 on: December 14, 2009, 02:38:21 AM »
I have to admit that I haven't been following the health care reform debate much at all.  Is this bill even going to be a net positive?  As I understand it (which is not very well) the original health care reform concept was that we'd mandate insurance purchase to expand the pool, subsidize it to make sure everyone could afford it, and then add other stuff like the public option to keep private insurers from abusing the mandate/subsidies.  Without the public option, how does this not amount to a giveaway to private companies, like Medicare Part D?  At this point, would no bill at all be better than what's apparently likely to pass the Senate?
QED

Mandark

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The agnostic don't need to prove shit
« Reply #6851 on: December 14, 2009, 03:03:57 AM »
Once again, dude, you knew that this was a philosophic discussion about an intangible property.

No, it's something that you claim to be an indisputable, objective truth which actually exists wholly independent of human society or intuition.

That's a very strong claim, and one that happens to underlie 99% of your posts in political threads.  Since you obviously believe this, and since all your arguments boil down to this, wouldn't it be a better use of your time to explain the basis of your belief rather than complain about how other people aren't giving you the respect you deserve?  I assume you've given this some thought, and should be able to make your case without someone else having to tease it out of you.

I have to admit that I haven't been following the health care reform debate much at all.  Is this bill even going to be a net positive?  As I understand it (which is not very well) the original health care reform concept was that we'd mandate insurance purchase to expand the pool, subsidize it to make sure everyone could afford it, and then add other stuff like the public option to keep private insurers from abusing the mandate/subsidies.  Without the public option, how does this not amount to a giveaway to private companies, like Medicare Part D?  At this point, would no bill at all be better than what's apparently likely to pass the Senate?

The core is really regulation+subsidies, rather than mandates+subsidies.  The mandates are in there to keep gaming the system once insurers have to use community rating and can't deny coverage of pre-existing conditions.  The public option was really watered down even in the earlier, more "liberal" versions of the bill and it's taken on a totemic significance for progressives all out of proportion to its actual effects.  Expanded Medicare probably lowers peoples' costs more, and is as better long-term step for a single-payer system.

Without getting into the details, I think it has to be a net plus, if only because the insurers tried to make a PR push against the bill.  Plus, most of the savings that keep it revenue-neutral are from the elimination of the most baldfaced giveaways from the Medicare Part D bill (like Medicare Advantage) and that hasn't changed throughout the process.

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6852 on: December 14, 2009, 08:19:34 AM »
People are talking a lot about how the Democrats could lose seats in the House and Senate next year. Does that look really likely at this point? Is there any chance that they could actually make gains?

They are almost certain to lose seats in the House but due to the number of retiring Republicans in the Senate they could also gain a seat or two there.  Also, hopefully Harry Reid loses so that Dick Durbin can take over running the Senate.
yar

Phoenix Dark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6853 on: December 14, 2009, 11:20:19 AM »
Does it even matter who the senate majority leader is when you have a 60 majority featuring 3-4 senators willing to toe the corporate line on any major issue that comes up (health care, education reform, energy, etc). Seems like nothing can be done unless they just get rid of the filibuster, but even that seems very unlikely.

And if these fucktards can't get anything done right now, what will they do if even a couple seats are lost next year. The republicans don't need to take over the senate in order to cripple Obama's agenda.
010

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6854 on: December 14, 2009, 02:38:18 PM »
PD's got it.

For all the bitching about Reid and Obama, the real problem is the nature of the Senate and the idiocy of a small handful of senators.  The "centrist" Dems have all the leverage because they're okay with walking away and letting the deal fall apart, while the Dem leadership is desperate for something to get done and can't find the votes anywhere else.

I'm pretty surprised at Lieberman's rejection of the new compromise.  I knew that he never had any legit objections to the bill, but I figured he was just grandstanding so he could be the center of attention and feel like part of the process.  Now it looks like he's out to kill the bill entirely.



Lieberman Has Always Been Predictable

Quote from: Daniel Larison
Over time, he found that all of his strongest defenders were to be found among hawks in the GOP, and most of his fiercest critics were within his own party. It has become easier to side with his new friends rather than with other Democrats. In this way, Lieberman is just like McCain, whose flirtations with the Democratic Party and the occasional liberal legislative initiative were similarly driven by bitterness over his experience in the 2000 primaries. Arguably, the health care fight ought to have pulled Lieberman back into his party’s orbit and could have won him new respect among the party rank-and-file, but the problem is that he is too much like McCain. They both have an unusually inflated estimate of their own importance, they both tend towards sanctimonious moralizing, and they enjoy the attention they receive for breaking with their party leaders. The more contentious the issue, and the more the party’s base wants something, the more attractive breaking ranks becomes. The health care debate was too tempting.

Domestic policy is secondary to both McCain and Lieberman, and they take their positions on it based on what will make them appear “independent-minded” and secure their “centrist” reputations. He cannot emphasize his unflagging hawkishness as McCain did when the latter needed to rehabilitate himself with Republican primary voters, and the habits of years of hewing to the “centrist” line have finally made it impossible for him to align himself with progressives in a major domestic policy debate.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 02:51:03 PM by Mandark »

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6855 on: December 14, 2009, 04:10:45 PM »
While that's true about the idiot centrists Mandark, I seem to recall Republicans forcing their agenda down America's throat without 60 votes pretty reliably for 6 years there.  Democrats are just pussies and Harry Reid is a prime example.
yar

Phoenix Dark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6856 on: December 14, 2009, 04:28:16 PM »
Dems are definitely pussies but note the plurality. The GOP is like one giant pussy; it may not like it, but if it's going to get fucked it's going to get fucked as one. How many so called fiscal conservatives raised questions or fits over Bush's spending sprees, how many demanded a blueprint on how stuff would be payed for, etc.
010

Van Cruncheon

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6857 on: December 14, 2009, 04:32:10 PM »
truth be told, ayn rand didn't even buy her own bullshit. she was a totalitarian in her personal life and matters, so of course she'd see the "can't we all just leave each other alone" set as a bunch of pussies in need of the dominion of the elite. hell, what is atlus shrugged if not 800 pages of implicit complaint that the stupid status quo won't grant the perceived "best and brightest" total latitude over society?
duc

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #6858 on: December 14, 2009, 07:48:26 PM »
rand thought it was her philosophy that was really important, not its political implications.  if libertarians didn't buy into her philosophy, she wasn't going to cut them any slack just for having roughly similar policy preferences.  also compromise is always evil

"There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil. The man who is wrong still retains some respect for truth, if only by accepting the responsibility of choice. But the man in the middle is the knave who blanks out the truth in order to pretend that no choice or values exist, who is willing to sit out the course of any battle, willing to cash in on the blood of the innocent or to crawl on his belly to the guilty, who dispenses justice by condemning both the robber and the robbed to jail, who solves conflicts by ordering the thinker and the fool to meet each other halfway. In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube . . .

When men reduce their virtues to the approximate, then evil acquires the force of an absolute, when loyalty to an unyielding purpose is dropped by the virtuous, it’s picked up by scoundrels—and you get the indecent spectacle of a cringing, bargaining, traitorous good and a self-righteously uncompromising evil."

(from the long speech in Atlas Shrugged)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 07:51:52 PM by recursivelyenumerable »
QED

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6859 on: December 14, 2009, 08:15:59 PM »
Sadly, No! eviscerates the stoopit libertopian argument (basically "I got mine, screw you!") against the govt. intervening in the health care market here.

At this point I'm pretty much checked out on American politics.  Obama has proven to be the financial sector's power bottom and Presidents Lieberman, Nelson and Lincoln are going to torpedo any potential health care bill no matter how many compromises get made.  America is too stupid and dysfunctional to be governed- the sooner the Chinese take over and start killing people for being uppity fucktards the better.  In fact, I've been keeping a list if they want to take a look at it...
yar

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6860 on: December 14, 2009, 09:26:11 PM »
Sadly, No! eviscerates the stoopit libertopian argument (basically "I got mine, screw you!") against the govt. intervening in the health care market here.

"France has a demonstrably better health care system than the United States. It isn’t even close. There are no medical bankruptcies, there are no people denied treatment because they lack insurance..."


Hrm.  It's like he thinks the one sentence logically flows from the other, somehow, but it's just not making sense.

Wow, it's like that's the only thing he wrote.

Quote
For a dozen years now I’ve led a dual life, spending more than 90 percent of my time and money in the U.S. while receiving 90 percent of my health care in my wife’s native France. On a personal level the comparison is no contest: I’ll take the French experience any day. ObamaCare opponents often warn that a new system will lead to long waiting times, mountains of paperwork, and less choice among doctors. Yet on all three of those counts the French system is significantly better, not worse, than what the U.S. has now.

LOLLERSKATES

Quote
What’s more, none of these anecdotes scratches the surface of France’s chief advantage, and the main reason socialized medicine remains a perennial temptation in this country: In France, you are covered, period. It doesn’t depend on your job, it doesn’t depend on a health maintenance organization, and it doesn’t depend on whether you filled out the paperwork right. Those who (like me) oppose ObamaCare, need to understand (also like me, unfortunately) what it’s like to be serially rejected by insurance companies even though you’re perfectly healthy. It’s an enraging, anxiety-inducing, indelible experience, one that both softens the intellectual ground for increased government intervention and produces active resentment toward anyone who argues that the U.S. has “the best health care in the world.”

WOW HOLY SHIT WHO IS THIS HIPPIE

Oh it's Matt Welch, editor of Reason lol

ALL ABOARD THE FREE MARKET FAILBOAT
yar

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6861 on: December 14, 2009, 09:42:10 PM »
While that's true about the idiot centrists Mandark, I seem to recall Republicans forcing their agenda down America's throat without 60 votes pretty reliably for 6 years there.  Democrats are just pussies and Harry Reid is a prime example.

Yeah, Bush/DeLay had a pretty successful run there.  But let's call it four years, not six.  In fact, let's call it the four years immediately following the 9/11 attacks.

The success they enjoyed was because of a fluke of history, and because their agenda was 90% corporate giveaways.  Bad policy is easier to pass because it avoids hard decisions and buys out the relevant lobbies.

I'm sure they could find 60 votes in the Senate easy if the bill was as crappy as Medicare Part D (or the energy bill, or the bankruptcy bill, or NCLB, or the farm bill), but why would we want that?  Bush was working with a different coalition pursuing different goals.  It's crazy to look at him as a model for achieving liberal-progressive reforms.


Also, how do so many liberals write stuff like this without realizing that they're recapitulating the Green Lantern Theory of Geopolitics, except applying it to the legislative procedure.  "If only our guys were more masculine and tougher, and not so Frenchy, Ben Nelson would cower at our might and vote the right way!"

We're Democrats, damn it.  We shouldn't be the ones pining for powerful daddy figures.

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6862 on: December 14, 2009, 09:53:57 PM »
Yeah, but I'm a Hunter Thompson democrat dammit.  I like guns, drinking and general rowdiness.

Also, speaking of the good Dr. it looks like California is gonna maybe legalize weed next year.
yar

Van Cruncheon

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6863 on: December 14, 2009, 10:30:51 PM »
Yeah, but I'm a Hunter Thompson democrat dammit.  I like guns, drinking and general rowdiness.

:bow :bow :bow being liberal doesn't hafta mean being an uptight pussy :bow2 :bow2 :bow2
duc

Van Cruncheon

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6864 on: December 14, 2009, 10:33:26 PM »
While that's true about the idiot centrists Mandark, I seem to recall Republicans forcing their agenda down America's throat without 60 votes pretty reliably for 6 years there.  Democrats are just pussies and Harry Reid is a prime example.

Yeah, Bush/DeLay had a pretty successful run there.  But let's call it four years, not six.  In fact, let's call it the four years immediately following the 9/11 attacks.

The success they enjoyed was because of a fluke of history, and because their agenda was 90% corporate giveaways.  Bad policy is easier to pass because it avoids hard decisions and buys out the relevant lobbies.

I'm sure they could find 60 votes in the Senate easy if the bill was as crappy as Medicare Part D (or the energy bill, or the bankruptcy bill, or NCLB, or the farm bill), but why would we want that?  Bush was working with a different coalition pursuing different goals.  It's crazy to look at him as a model for achieving liberal-progressive reforms.


Also, how do so many liberals write stuff like this without realizing that they're recapitulating the Green Lantern Theory of Geopolitics, except applying it to the legislative procedure.  "If only our guys were more masculine and tougher, and not so Frenchy, Ben Nelson would cower at our might and vote the right way!"

We're Democrats, damn it.  We shouldn't be the ones pining for powerful daddy figures.

because some of us aren't coalition builders. fuck, some days, i'm not even sure i believe in elective democracy!
duc

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6865 on: December 14, 2009, 11:03:42 PM »
Mass cleansing based on those who would drink only Brawndo would probably be a good way to govern imo.
yar

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6866 on: December 14, 2009, 11:32:53 PM »
You legislate with the political institutions you have, not with the political institutions you wish you had.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6867 on: December 14, 2009, 11:42:17 PM »
duh! doesn't change what i *want*.
duc

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #6868 on: December 15, 2009, 09:12:15 AM »
Bunch of shit

Thanks for saving me the cash. I wanted to get the book and read what all the hooplah was about. But I now realize that I never would have finished it before its fiery demise.
©ZH

Bebpo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6869 on: December 15, 2009, 02:15:16 PM »
Also, speaking of the good Dr. it looks like California is gonna maybe legalize weed next year.

Please happen.

I want to live in a state that's not in horrible debt and filled with overcrowded prisons.

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6870 on: December 15, 2009, 10:53:38 PM »
I just read a market-based approach to the health care problem that seems to actually make sense. But I might be overlooking something. Anyone care to take a look? It's a good read.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200909/health-care

I'm through the first two sections and it's a coin flip if I'm going to give this a tl;dr.

So far it's a guy with apparently no background in the economics of health care saying things that are either truisms or (when he talks about the government subsidizing housing) suspiciously close to BS talking points.

Maybe it gets better.



edit:  Okay, I saw the phrase "moral hazard" and decided to search on page for "HSA".  Bingo.  This is ~90% Republican boilerplate.  Let the consumers directly assume more cost and more risk, and tell women to stop expecting pre-natal care.  Sluts knew what they were getting into.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 11:09:19 PM by Mandark »

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6871 on: December 15, 2009, 11:00:39 PM »
Why doesn't any journalist remind their viewers that Aetna  is one of Lieberman's "constituents"?
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The Fake Shemp

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6872 on: December 15, 2009, 11:01:36 PM »
WHY DOESNT ANY JOURNALIST REMIND THEIR VIEWERS THAT ACORN IS ONE OF OBAMA'S "CONSTITUENTS"?
PSP

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6873 on: December 15, 2009, 11:05:48 PM »
Was he ever linked though? I thought fox hated acorn because they "register voters that would most likely vote democrat". At least, that is what the fake pimp fox hero said.
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Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6874 on: December 15, 2009, 11:11:21 PM »
For whatever reason, it's considered uncouth in mainstream journalism to suggest that a particular politician is under the sway of a big lobby.  You're allowed to point out that an industry is spending a lot of money to defeat a bill, but you can't make the connection to a specific legislator who seems to be in their pocket.

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6875 on: December 15, 2009, 11:20:39 PM »
If they did that for all politicians it would make for greater transparency IMO.
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Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6876 on: December 15, 2009, 11:46:10 PM »
Man, I wish that post weren't so on target, Cohen.

WashPost had big front page stories on the lobbying behind the health bill two days in a row a couple months back, with color graphics of the money flow and quotes from lobbyists saying that there was nothing out of the ordinary going on.  Since then, bupkis.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6877 on: December 16, 2009, 12:32:53 AM »
edit:  Okay, I saw the phrase "moral hazard" and decided to search on page for "HSA".  Bingo.  This is ~90% Republican boilerplate.  Let the consumers directly assume more cost and more risk, and tell women to stop expecting pre-natal care.  Sluts knew what they were getting into.

You don't think there could be some validity to the idea that insurance really drives up costs, and if the majority of medical procedures were paid for out of pocket, the costs would fall to levels people could afford out of necessity?

dropping a procedure from $15K to $1.5K still ain't gonna make it affordable for most americans in an emergency. hence, insurance.
duc

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6878 on: December 16, 2009, 01:09:18 AM »
edit:  Okay, I saw the phrase "moral hazard" and decided to search on page for "HSA".  Bingo.  This is ~90% Republican boilerplate.  Let the consumers directly assume more cost and more risk, and tell women to stop expecting pre-natal care.  Sluts knew what they were getting into.

You don't think there could be some validity to the idea that insurance really drives up costs, and if the majority of medical procedures were paid for out of pocket, the costs would fall to levels people could afford out of necessity?

The underlying assumption behind the "skin in the game" theory of controlling costs is that health care behaves like the iconic Econ 101 Widget: producers compete to make it cheaper because the consumer can easily compare the costs with the utility they'd get out of the widgets.

But health care operates differently, for two reasons:

1)  Giant information costs.  There's a 99% chance you don't know enough to reliably diagnose yourself and decide on a course of treatment.  The cost of learning if you like a dish at a restaurant is ~$20 and an hour of your time.  The cost of making informed medical decisions is ~$90,000 and four years.  So we have professionals and rely on them.

2)  Cost-benefit analysis tends to get chucked out the window when death is on the line.  If your physician tells you that the pains are probably nothing, but there's a 5% chance that it's horrible cancer which will kill you in a year if you don't catch it, then you're getting that fancy new test, whether your insurance covers it or you're putting $2,000 on your credit card.

Because of these two, the high stakes and asymmetric information, doctors are the de facto decisionmakers for most patients.  If anyone's incentives should be changed, it's theirs. 

The current healthcare bill moves towards paying providers based on results, rather than a per-procedure fee which encourages overtesting.  The author of the Atlantic piece just assumes that doctors will change their fee structure because of the power of the market, which I seriously doubt.  Look at the credit industry: they deal directly with the customer all the time and their fee structures have gotten less and less fair.

The author also assumes that these problems will be solved by the emergence of a new profession of patient advocates, which basically translates as "well, you can always sue your doctor".  My guess is this would have about a gazillion unintended consequences, the most obvious one being that upper- and middle-class patients will scare doctors into behaving better for them than they do for the dirty poors.  More litigation, even if it's in a new, supposedly streamlined process, is almost never the best way to fix a system.

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6879 on: December 16, 2009, 06:46:47 AM »
The reason that some hospitals aren't making money is that some people don't pay for emergency care, thus necessitating the absurd prices on certain other stuff to people who can/will pay (i.e. those with insurance).  So instead of fucking around with "let's just dump the costs off on people, that'll fix things" ideas as a fix when that's ALREADY THE REASON THE SYSTEM IS FUCKED UP (certain people CAN'T pay) I would think that the better solution would be to make sure that as many people as possible are insured, or, you know, completely eliminate the "uninsured" category and just have universal coverage.
yar

Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6880 on: December 16, 2009, 10:42:42 AM »
So with the public option seemingly gone does this mean that Canada's population is going to increase?   :smug
+1

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6881 on: December 17, 2009, 08:07:33 AM »
Meet your swing vote on every important bill over the next year.

Quote
But in the interview, Mr. Lieberman said that he grew apprehensive when a formal proposal began to take shape. He said he worried that the program would lead to financial trouble and contribute to the instability of the existing Medicare program.

And he said he was particularly troubled by the overly enthusiastic reaction to the proposal by some liberals, including Representative Anthony Weiner, Democrat of New York, who champions a fully government-run health care system.

“Congressman Weiner made a comment that Medicare-buy in is better than a public option, it’s the beginning of a road to single-payer,” Mr. Lieberman said. “Jacob Hacker, who’s a Yale professor who is actually the man who created the public option, said, ‘This is a dream. This is better than a public option. This is a giant step.’”

But right here is the broken-ass epistemology of a pompous idiot.  He's not smart or interested enough to work out the details of the policy, so his shortcut is to see how other people react to something, and if it's praised too much by groups who he thinks as enemies, oppose it.

It's so dumb and tribal and petty.  Oh, and apparently he completely made up that quote by Hacker.

Tristam

  • Member
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6882 on: December 17, 2009, 08:54:39 AM »
Meet your swing vote on every important bill over the next year.

Quote
But in the interview, Mr. Lieberman said that he grew apprehensive when a formal proposal began to take shape. He said he worried that the program would lead to financial trouble and contribute to the instability of the existing Medicare program.

And he said he was particularly troubled by the overly enthusiastic reaction to the proposal by some liberals, including Representative Anthony Weiner, Democrat of New York, who champions a fully government-run health care system.

“Congressman Weiner made a comment that Medicare-buy in is better than a public option, it’s the beginning of a road to single-payer,” Mr. Lieberman said. “Jacob Hacker, who’s a Yale professor who is actually the man who created the public option, said, ‘This is a dream. This is better than a public option. This is a giant step.’”

But right here is the broken-ass epistemology of a pompous idiot.  He's not smart or interested enough to work out the details of the policy, so his shortcut is to see how other people react to something, and if it's praised too much by groups who he thinks as enemies, oppose it.

It's so dumb and tribal and petty.  Oh, and apparently he completely made up that quote by Hacker.

I read that earlier today. His reasoning barely registered in my mind as both silly and dishonest. I've become desensitized to stupidity.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had a few months ago with an American compatriot here in Korea. I asked him if he was paying attention to the political news back home; he replied no, saying that it was too discouraging. I said hey, that's not true--there's a new legislative bill that will guarantee universal health care! Then I acknowledged that many of its most useful provisions will probably be stripped from it; he remarked that it would be Swiss cheese when it emerged from both chambers of Congress. We both agreed that if it passed in that state, then it could potentially do even more harm than good. Then he looked at me and said, "Depressing, isn't it?" And I said, "Oh, yeah, I see your point."

EDIT: Btw, Green Shinobi, if you've used the medical system here in Korea, it should be obvious how it completely outclasses America's. The facilities and doctors are generally SUPERIOR to their American counterparts--and I pay FAR LESS in both tax and insurance payments than I do in America! To say nothing of how cheap the medical costs are across the board! An ER visit here is $20. In America I paid over $1,000 even with fantastic insurance (the hospital denied my claim that a kidney stone is an emergency).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 09:02:00 AM by Tristam »

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6883 on: December 17, 2009, 09:09:26 AM »
The good news is that the bill is definitely better than the status quo.

Still, I'd love to be free of the knowledge that assholes and idiots still wield a ton of power over my country.  It's alternately numbing and horribly frustrating.

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6884 on: December 17, 2009, 09:43:26 AM »
The good news is that the bill is definitely better than the status quo.

Still, I'd love to be free of the knowledge that assholes and idiots still wield a ton of power over my country.  It's alternately numbing and horribly frustrating.

Whoa whoa whoa... slow down there pardner.  As you well know, there's plenty of opportunities for this thing to get worse.  They're not done by a long shot in the Senate yet, and then you've got the inevitable conference committee shenanigans... and Ben Nelson is still apparently upset that Lieberman is getting all the attention and will likely have at least two or three more freakouts over abortion or something equally stupid.

It's funny to look back and think about it, but the Finance committee bill is honestly better than what's left at this point.  The thing that pisses me off the most is the mandate coupled with ABSOLUTELY NO COST CONTROLS on these fucking jackal insurance companies.
yar

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6885 on: December 17, 2009, 10:13:52 AM »
I dunno.  Industry lobbies generally know their own financial interest, and AHIP's still trying to kill this baby.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6886 on: December 17, 2009, 10:40:14 AM »
And the entire GOP is still going crazy. I was wondering if they'd declare victory after the public option/medicare buy-in were shitcanned but they're still going full speed. So when this passes what will they say
010

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6887 on: December 17, 2009, 10:46:43 AM »
And the entire GOP is still going crazy. I was wondering if they'd declare victory after the public option/medicare buy-in were shitcanned but they're still going full speed. So when this passes what will they say

THIS IS THE END OF AMERICA

NOBAMA

FIRST THEY CAME FOR THE RICH, AND I SAID NOTHING BECAUSE I WASN'T RICH
yar

Phoenix Dark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6888 on: December 17, 2009, 10:54:29 AM »
How can they top themselves, maybe shut down the senate or something? They wasted half their ammo in August, and the rest since. Now the year is almost over and a bill is going to be passed.

Too bad dems like Lieberman/Nelson/etc gave them cover, smh.
010

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #6889 on: December 17, 2009, 11:32:22 AM »
Quote
The thing that pisses me off the most is the mandate coupled with ABSOLUTELY NO COST CONTROLS on these fucking jackal insurance companies.

I guess this is what concerns me.  If companies are currently charging X, and we're going to be offering S amount of subsidies, what will keep them from just charging X+S, so that individuals end up have to pay the same amount, but the govt is spending more money?  If Econ 101 competition wasn't performing this function before, what will the bill do to change that -- especially since we're removing the competing option of "not buying insurance", which has proven fairly popular however shitty it may be?  With no public option, the regulations it does add seem to concentrate on restricting discrimination rather than controlling costs or enhancing competition.  What am I missing?
QED

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #6890 on: December 17, 2009, 11:45:05 AM »
I do like this comment on the Ezra Klein piece:

"In order to keep Joe Lieberman from doing any more damage, my official stance is "I am a liberal and I hate this bill! Man, it's awful! There's NOTHING left for me to be excited about! Bummer!"

Posted by: cog145 | December 15, 2009 10:30 AM | Report abuse"
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 11:48:33 AM by recursivelyenumerable »
QED

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6891 on: December 17, 2009, 02:34:11 PM »
The good news is that the bill is definitely better than the status quo.

Still, I'd love to be free of the knowledge that assholes and idiots still wield a ton of power over my country.  It's alternately numbing and horribly frustrating.

Whoa whoa whoa... slow down there pardner.  As you well know, there's plenty of opportunities for this thing to get worse.  They're not done by a long shot in the Senate yet, and then you've got the inevitable conference committee shenanigans... and Ben Nelson is still apparently upset that Lieberman is getting all the attention and will likely have at least two or three more freakouts over abortion or something equally stupid.

Wow, like clockwork or something.  Ben Nelson is now saying he won't vote for the bill.
yar

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6892 on: December 17, 2009, 10:23:54 PM »
Saw this tonight on SNL xmas special. I know its old but I lost it a few times.

http://onegoodmovemedia.org/movies/njenson/bluechristmas.html
©ZH

Mandark

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6893 on: December 18, 2009, 12:27:48 AM »
And the entire GOP is still going crazy. I was wondering if they'd declare victory after the public option/medicare buy-in were shitcanned but they're still going full speed. So when this passes what will they say

It'll be the usual.  They'll blame the bill for whatever economic or medical problems come along down the pike, no matter how specious the logic or how fake the crisis.  They blame the economy on the future possibility of a nebulous cap-n-trade bill, ferchrissakes.

Then 20 years down the road, when everyone's used to the benefits and some Democratic politicians are trying to expand the safety net, they'll tell everyone that the new legislation is trying to set up death panels and roll back what they opposed in the first place.



recursive:  The cost-control measures (which have been weakened from the House version, I think) are mostly aimed at providers rather than at the insurance companies.  The regulations on insurers are more cost-shifting than cost-reducing, but I don't think that's a bad thing.  See Jim Henley.




PS Hey!  "No, they exist because they do." on the newsfeed.  That makes me a little proud.

Boogie

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6894 on: December 18, 2009, 12:34:35 AM »

PS Hey!  "No, they exist because they do." on the newsfeed.  That makes me a little proud.

I'm almost more proud of that than I am of my own contribution to the newsfeed.

Almost.
MMA

Human Snorenado

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6895 on: December 18, 2009, 08:29:38 AM »
Yes.  Be proud of acting demonstrably petty and stupid.   ::)  Be proud of failing to engage in the conversation you demanded.

Last time I checked Mandark wasn't the one who responded like an eight year old.
yar

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6896 on: December 18, 2009, 09:03:53 AM »
I can't say I'm surprised about Ben Nelson's fuckwittery.  This is the Democrat who brought back the death penalty (electric chair to boot) to Nebraska while Governor after it was left alone by Republicans and Democrats for 35 years (1959-1994).  The guy whose 2006 Senate campaign ads prominently featured an endorsement from Bush about being willing to work with Republicans.

Edit: According to Wikipedia, he's been the only Governor after 1959 to use the death penalty.  The Republican successors did not use it, like wingnut Mike Johanns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Nebraska#List_of_individuals_executed_in_Nebraska_after_1976

I wouldn't expect anything from him.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 09:07:15 AM by T EXP »
🍆🍆

Barry Egan

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politi
« Reply #6897 on: December 18, 2009, 09:57:38 AM »
Yes.  Be proud of acting demonstrably petty and stupid.   ::)  Be proud of failing to engage in the conversation you demanded.

Last time I checked Mandark wasn't the one who responded like an eight year old.

It's petty because it is Triumph.  It's petty because it is.

The Fake Shemp

  • Ebola Carrier
Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6898 on: December 18, 2009, 10:32:41 AM »
I can't believe health care reform is being killed by the Senate. This is like watching a Redskins game, where they're up by a touchdown and somehow lose by a field goal in the final seconds.
PSP

Brehvolution

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Re: "A black sheriff?!": The Official Topic of Obama and New Era American Politics
« Reply #6899 on: December 18, 2009, 10:48:34 AM »
Corporation profits > American lives
©ZH