Sales Bore | Media Create And Other Sale Numbers |OT|

[Himu]

Or any King of Fighters final boss. Or the last boss of Street Fighter IIITS.

[tiesto]

You do have a point, but I still think there's a difference between Ghouls and Ghosts being hard as fuck to extend its playtime so people wouldn't trade it in right away and a game with the difficulty level of Ghouls and Ghosts with a big flashing popup when you die that says "buy this special weapon for $2 that will make the game a shitload easier". I guess I preferred when games were a bit more subtle with their monetization.

Everyone's got shit but some people have much more shit than others.

Why do people bring this up when most if not all f2p games that do this are crap games anyways? It's like you're using bottom of the barrel examples to prove a point. It is unrealistic and not true for most f2p of note - of which there are many. To be honest, your double standard is showing here. You bring up crap games that say "buy this to make this game a lot easier" while defending a medium - arcade games in this instance - that have a long history of fucking the player over. That one Double Dragon game being a great example.

I guess you missed the post where I said there are some examples of F2P I am perfectly fine with, instead everyone here wanted to jump on me because I don't like some of the things its used for. The Bore's gotten to be a bit of a hivemind lately (steam good! pc good! mobile good! console bad! nintendo reeeeealllly bad!) and my tastes definitely differ from the general consensus on here.

Double Dragon 3 arcade sounds terrible. I just remember the Acclaim port for NES being too challenging to get past the first level (1 life, no continues, wtf?)

Also, the guy is a grade-A asshole but Icycalm's article on arcade gaming is a decent read (a read that some people have taken so much to that they'll stan for the guy even if he's a blatant holocaust-denier/racist/mysogynist/homophobe) and why I'm willing to put up with inflated arcade difficulty over something like Candy Crush: http://insomnia.ac/commentary/arcade_culture/

[Himu]

But why are you comparing candy crush to arcade gaming? You don't realize how silly that it is? It is like comparing tony Hawk 2 to BMX XXX. Or Duke Numem 3d to that shitty free chex fps. Why not compare Candy Crush to Dragon's Lair? Why all the emphasis on Candy Crush when Candy Crush sucks anyways? How in the world is Candy Crush a threat?

[Himu]

Also, wasn't it unanimously agreed Nintendo won E3 at the bore?

[Himu]

Re: hive mind. There isn't really a hive mind. When I said 2014 is the worst year I've ever seen for console gaming and I've been playing games since I was 4, people disagreed and they expressed their disagreement in a very vocal way - which is their right. There is no hive mind. We have two or three camps at this point, and there's a lot of mobile/f2p dissent on this board. Hell, you guys are probably the majority!

[Human Snorenado]

But why are you comparing candy crush to arcade gaming? You don't realize how silly that it is? It is like comparing tony Hawk 2 to BMX XXX. Or Duke Numem 3d to that shitty free chex fps. Why not compare Candy Crush to Dragon's Lair? Why all the emphasis on Candy Crush when Candy Crush sucks anyways? How in the world is Candy Crush a threat?

Candy Crush is a threat because everyone who was never going to play games Tiesto liked is playing it, or something.

In reality, people consider it a threat because it's popular, and game companies will ape new popular shit at the expense of stuff gamers like in their quest for more money.

[Tasty]

Also, wasn't it unanimously agreed Nintendo won E3 at the bore?

Maybe I am the hive mind now

[Himu]

Tiesto, I think most of us here want the same thing. We just have a different idea as to how to get there.

[tiesto]

I actually don't mind the Wily boss rush - they're usually a good endurance test and by that time you have all the weapons so it allows for some extra experimentation (and how good is it killing Metal Man with 1 hit with his own weapon?).

Candy Crush is afaik the most widely played mobile games and one of the most blatant with its F2P. It's the elephant in the room. Any discussion of monetization in F2P games will inevitably mention it. Like how Call of Duty bears the brunt of the blame for frustrations with "AAA" game tropes. Dragon's Lair was a quarter-muncher that was nearly indecipherable but upon its release it was a blip on the radar in the arcade scene, a big game but not the biggest one.

Really the thing I hate about F2P is stuff like the Tales of Phantasia port (the original is a favorite of mine):

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/tales-of-phantasia-mobile-and-other-phantastic-rip-offs
http://toucharcade.com/2014/01/27/tales-of-phantasia-review/

[Great Rumbler]

I just wanna buy games that interest me and then be able to play them as much as I want without ever being asked to spend any more money. I also don't like MMOs either, but there are other reasons for that, too.

[Himu]

You have that option. That doesn't explain why you're threatened by f2p or mobile. Most games on steam are premium. So I'm not seeing or understanding the hostility. Most of the games you champion - KS titles - have no goal of being f2p anyways. So the whole f2p hate thing makes even less sense.

[huckleberry]

Goddam arcade games. What a love/hate relationship I had with them. I was one of those kids who had to stand around and watch other people play because my parents never gave me enough money to finish any game (no matter how good I was). I would actually give money to people who had gotten far enough in a game (like Shinobi) just to see them get deeper into the game.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Jesus thats some devotion.

[huckleberry]

Not devotion, just thirst. Those were the days before SNES and Genesis. Arcade games were fucking incredible compared to console stuff.

[Cerveza mas fina]

To me the height of the arcade was with Sega Rally, Daytona etc.

But yeah those earlier times where cool as well.

Never went to the arcade much but I always thought it was magic to spend a few coins.

[huckleberry]

I have some good arcade memories. I also have some memories of standing too close to dudes with zipped up Members Only jackets who hadn't bathed in years from the smell. Whenever they would start mashing buttons too quickly the smell would escape the jacket and damn near smother me. 25 years later and I can still smell it.

Fuckin' neckbeards never change.

[magus]

if you guys are such big arcade fan then why thebore never had a mame thread?

[Himu]

We've had multiple. Mostly by dcharlie and shonuff.

[huckleberry]

if you guys are such big arcade fan then why thebore never had a mame thread?

I'm not a big arcade fan....just old.

Looking back on how much money I wasted in arcades only serves to remind me why I hate f2p and iap.  You guys can like whatever the fuck you want. I don't like that shit and won't participate. If that makes me out of touch then fuck it. If it makes me seem like an elitist prick fuck it. It's my money and I spend it how I see fit.

[huckleberry]

I don't recall making any attacks on anything.

[Stoney Mason]

I'm not even sure exactly what the argument is anymore.

If it's still about f2p then the basic discussion is what it is. Some people don't like it. Some people recognize why it makes sense for certain platforms or certain genres of games.

There seems to be fear that one method is gonna completely destroy another when that's not very likely at least any time soon. At least if you are playing on a platform where f2p isn't currently the dominant model.

[huckleberry]

I'm not even sure exactly what the argument is anymore.

If it's still about f2p then the basic discussion is what it is. Some people don't like it. Some people recognize why it makes sense for certain platforms or certain genres of games.

There seems to be fear that one method is gonna completely destroy another when that's not very likely at least any time soon. At least if you are playing on a platform where f2p isn't currently the dominant model.

Much of my dislike for f2p and iap stems from having children. I have all the self control in the world when it comes to gaming and how I spend my money. Kids have no self control whatsoever. It was a constant battle to explain to my daughter why she couldn't just spend whatever money she needed from my credit card to buy some stupid fuck coins in whatever frp game she was playing at the time. Mobile is fucking overrun with that kind of shit.
I completely realize that there are plenty of legitimate f2p games out there. I just think that the model is as insidious as it gets. And I am not entirely understanding of why I should be more understanding of a pay model like f2p but, at the same time, be able to complain to the high heavens about lack of content in a game I buy at Gamestop.

[Stoney Mason]

I'm not even sure exactly what the argument is anymore.

If it's still about f2p then the basic discussion is what it is. Some people don't like it. Some people recognize why it makes sense for certain platforms or certain genres of games.

There seems to be fear that one method is gonna completely destroy another when that's not very likely at least any time soon. At least if you are playing on a platform where f2p isn't currently the dominant model.

Much of my dislike for f2p and iap stems from having children. I have all the self control in the world when it comes to gaming and how I spend my money. Kids have no self control whatsoever. It was a constant battle to explain to my daughter why she couldn't just spend whatever money she needed from my credit card to buy some stupid fuck coins in whatever frp game she was playing at the time. Mobile is fucking overrun with that kind of shit.
I completely realize that there are plenty of legitimate f2p games out there. I just think that the model is as insidious as it gets. And I am not entirely understanding of why I should be more understanding of a pay model like f2p but, at the same time, be able to complain to the high heavens about lack of content in a game I buy at Gamestop.

At its worst extremes I think the model can be insidious also. I wouldn't even mind regulation on some of these aspects. That being said, the easiest way to tackle this problem is for Apple to have better parent guards and regulations about how they handle IAP and that's its not easy for any kid to just go and easily buy this stuff. I think it should be very hard for anybody under age to buy IAP.
 
Maybe it is. I wouldn't know as I don't have any kids. That being said, I know there is a large market of adults who actually prefer these kind of experiences rather than spending larger sums of money on traditional videogames. And clearly Dota and Lol prove there is a market for this kind of stuff in the PC space if operated in a manner where the user finds the tradeoffs worth it.

My main takeaway in all this stuff is rather than railing against the gods that people should have the same taste as my opinion, is to instead look at how do you curb the excesses in any format since the market is going to go the way it wants no matter how I feel about it. (Not aimed at anyone in particular)

[Joe Molotov]

Was never a big arcade gamer, but I did pay ~$5 to beat Dimahoo once.

[Stoney Mason]

I loved arcades and arcade games. I have a particular love and nostalgia for them because of their history and how they once justified their existence. Even before this whole f2p thing started it was a bit obvious to me that the mobile scene initially in many ways closely resembled the early arcade scene from jump. Cheap, fun, mostly throwaway games that had to hook you from the start.

There is a real knack and talent to designing a great arcade game that was gone once consoles became dominant and arcades became a relic.

[Himu]

I'm fine with both models. There's room for both, but depends on a contextual basis.  I'm just surprised and shocked at the fact people treat f2p as like some dormant enemy threatening to take over their hobby when for the most part, the software they prefer tend to be premium priced. The whole f2p is evil/the devil movement confuses me. Especially when you really dig in and find to see it can be viable and even better than premium in some cases.

Also, I'm not including IAP in my argument. I have yet to pay for a single IAP.

[huckleberry]

I should clarify that while I'm pretty okay with F2P, I think the presence of consumable IAP in games should automatically bump a game's rating to 18+.  If it's a game for kids, either make it ad-supported or stick a price tag on it and call it a day.

More than anything I think Apple and Google (and Amazon etc...) need to market games better in general.  It is so goddam hard to wade through the piles of shit and iap nonsense that I have pretty much given up on mobile gaming. I would love to see legitimately good games be promoted from within the store and separated from the crap in some way. 

[Stoney Mason]

I should clarify that while I'm pretty okay with F2P, I think the presence of consumable IAP in games should automatically bump a game's rating to 18+.  If it's a game for kids, either make it ad-supported or stick a price tag on it and call it a day.

More than anything I think Apple and Google (and Amazon etc...) need to market games better in general.  It is so goddam hard to wade through the piles of shit and iap nonsense that I have pretty much given up on mobile gaming. I would love to see legitimately good games be promoted from within the store and separated from the crap in some way.

I don't know. When you go to the app store on an ipad at least, the best games are generally there in the featured section and you can sort by category. Outside of that I don't know much more they can do other than also duplicating that page on a regular website. I think steam is a terrible storefront for locating the good stuff but hardcore gamers don't seem to have a problem separating the wheat from the chaff on that market.

[Himu]

I should clarify that while I'm pretty okay with F2P, I think the presence of consumable IAP in games should automatically bump a game's rating to 18+.  If it's a game for kids, either make it ad-supported or stick a price tag on it and call it a day.

More than anything I think Apple and Google (and Amazon etc...) need to market games better in general.  It is so goddam hard to wade through the piles of shit and iap nonsense that I have pretty much given up on mobile gaming. I would love to see legitimately good games be promoted from within the store and separated from the crap in some way.

Apple already does this via Collections. Google doesn't because Play Store sucks.



Apple does a fantastic job of letting you know what's good on their store.

Example.

[huckleberry]

I should clarify that while I'm pretty okay with F2P, I think the presence of consumable IAP in games should automatically bump a game's rating to 18+.  If it's a game for kids, either make it ad-supported or stick a price tag on it and call it a day.

More than anything I think Apple and Google (and Amazon etc...) need to market games better in general.  It is so goddam hard to wade through the piles of shit and iap nonsense that I have pretty much given up on mobile gaming. I would love to see legitimately good games be promoted from within the store and separated from the crap in some way.

I don't know. When you go to the app store on an ipad at least, the best games are generally there in the featured section and you can sort by category. Outside of that I don't know much more they can do other than also duplicating that page on a regular website. I think steam is a terrible storefront for locating the good stuff but hardcore gamers don't seem to have a problem separating the wheat from the chaff on that market.

Steam is horrible in that regard. And it has gotten much much worse as of late.

[magus]

I'm fine with both models. There's room for both, but depends on a contextual basis.  I'm just surprised and shocked at the fact people treat f2p as like some dormant enemy threatening to take over their hobby when for the most part, the software they prefer tend to be premium priced. The whole f2p is evil/the devil movement confuses me. Especially when you really dig in and find to see it can be viable and even better than premium in some cases.

Also, I'm not including IAP in my argument. I have yet to pay for a single IAP.

it really shouldn't confuse you, there are a lot of explotaitive bad F2P games, stuff like farmville,the simpsons tapped out,candy crush,dungeon keeper and dare to say even clash of clans...

... and they all get more attention than any other mobile games because somehow they are also the titles that rake in the most money

The Chinese MMO ZT Online has the most devious implementation of this I've ever seen. The game is full of these treasure chests that may or may not contain a random item and to open them, you need a key. How do you get the keys? Why, you buy them with real-world money, of course. Like coins in a slot machine.

Wait, that's not the best part. ZT Online does something even the casinos never dreamed up: They award a special item at the end of the day to the player who opens the most chests.

And that's hardly the most ridiculous aspect of the game.

Now, in addition to the gambling element, you have thousands of players in competition with each other, to see who can be the most obsessive about opening the chests. One woman tells of how she spent her entire evening opening chests--over a thousand--to try to win the daily prize.

She didn't. There was always someone else more obsessed.

this is what people think when they think of F2P, that and game where you issue an order only to see it executed 12 hours later

[huckleberry]

I really don't have a problem at all with the f2p model itself, especially when its treated like a demo-  download the first few levels in the game and, if you like it, you can purchase the game itself. I do think that iap has completely ruined f2p (at least in my mind) because so often iap is place in f2p games to disastrous results.

[Himu]

I'm fine with both models. There's room for both, but depends on a contextual basis.  I'm just surprised and shocked at the fact people treat f2p as like some dormant enemy threatening to take over their hobby when for the most part, the software they prefer tend to be premium priced. The whole f2p is evil/the devil movement confuses me. Especially when you really dig in and find to see it can be viable and even better than premium in some cases.

Also, I'm not including IAP in my argument. I have yet to pay for a single IAP.

it really shouldn't confuse you, there are a lot of explotaitive bad F2P games, stuff like farmville,the simpsons tapped out,candy crush,dungeon keeper and dare to say even clash of clans...

... and they all get more attention than any other mobile games because somehow they are also the titles that rake in the most money

The Chinese MMO ZT Online has the most devious implementation of this I've ever seen. The game is full of these treasure chests that may or may not contain a random item and to open them, you need a key. How do you get the keys? Why, you buy them with real-world money, of course. Like coins in a slot machine.

Wait, that's not the best part. ZT Online does something even the casinos never dreamed up: They award a special item at the end of the day to the player who opens the most chests.

And that's hardly the most ridiculous aspect of the game.

Now, in addition to the gambling element, you have thousands of players in competition with each other, to see who can be the most obsessive about opening the chests. One woman tells of how she spent her entire evening opening chests--over a thousand--to try to win the daily prize.

She didn't. There was always someone else more obsessed.

this is what people think when they think of F2P, that and game where you issue an order only to see it executed 12 hours later

It confuses me because all of those are bad games and I don't play bad games and there's no point in wasting ones time or emotions on bad games.

[magus]

but the bad games are the majority and they are EVERYWHERE

heck in fact i think the only reason i've started to like mobile games it's because PAD is a thing, PAD isn't even avaiable in europe, i had to steal it from the american market... you know what's avaiable in europe and what's the first game that will pop out if i search for popular games on the android market? clash of clans and candy crush saga

the mobile market doesn't have only bad games but it's mostly defined by bad games

[Himu]

All of that has more to do with Play Store being dog shit and the fact that Android gamers tend to have awful taste.

[Stoney Mason]

but the bad games are the majority and they are EVERYWHERE

heck in fact i think the only reason i've started to like mobile games it's because PAD is a thing, PAD isn't even avaiable in europe, i had to steal it from the american market... you know what's avaiable in europe and what's the first game that will pop out if i search for popular games on the android market? clash of clans and candy crush saga

the mobile market doesn't have only bad games but it's mostly defined by bad games

There are plenty of games that aren't this style of game on mobile. But that being said, I'll even defend the energy system games because if people weren't getting enjoyment out of them, they wouldn't play them. You may not like them. But there are people who like Simpsons tapped out. Clash of Clans, etc. And these people are fine with a tradeoff of playing a game for a bit and then stopping and never having to drop a dime in the game. They aren't going to sit on their ipad or iphone and play a game for hours. They have lives and gaming is a side activity. Not a main hobby or their #1 hobby.

There will always be this divide. If that bothers you there are platforms that exist where f2p doesn't attract a more casual market. And its fine for someone to prefer those markets. I just don't quite understand being overly concerned about something you don't like. It's like me railing on about Transformers movies. Yeah they suck. Don't go see them if you don't like them. There are plenty of other movies out there.

[magus]

All of that has more to do with Play Store being dog shit and the fact that Android gamers tend to have awful taste.

the big software house like square-enix also do a terrible job that once again aiming to exploit the player first and making a decent game later

what you'd expect a square-enix freemium mobile game to look like



what you get instead

There are plenty of games that aren't this style of game on mobile.

i'm not saying there aren't, just that these are the one that get talked/noticed the most and as long as they are the one that get talked/noticed the most, freemium games will always be seen with a bad eye

[Stoney Mason]

i'm not saying there aren't, just that these are the one that get talked/noticed the most

by who? And for what reason?

If you are talking business types then yeah. If you are talking about your mom or father. then probably yeah too. But on forums or hardcore enthusiast sites, those aren't the most talked about and popular games on that format.

[huckleberry]

All of that has more to do with Play Store being dog shit and the fact that Android gamers tend to have awful taste.

Android ports are, in large part, half assed. It's not because Android owners have awful taste. gtfo with that appletard shit.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I know you trolling 

[close]

[demi]

The Bore's gotten to be a bit of a hivemind lately (steam good! pc good! mobile good! console bad! nintendo reeeeealllly bad!) and my tastes definitely differ from the general consensus on here.

You know that's not true. We were jacking our chubby little dicks to Nintendo just a week ago.

[magus]

My Square-Enix F2P games look like Agito and Rise of Mana.  They're really pretty.

i hope you choke on sushi, you kuso-weeaboo!

[Tasty]

I should clarify that while I'm pretty okay with F2P, I think the presence of consumable IAP in games should automatically bump a game's rating to 18+.  If it's a game for kids, either make it ad-supported or stick a price tag on it and call it a day.

Isn't the EU moving in that direction?

Then again those fucks made "gambling" in games an automatic 14+ or whatever which means no more Game Corner in my Pokemans. 

[Himu]

All of that has more to do with Play Store being dog shit and the fact that Android gamers tend to have awful taste.

the big software house like square-enix also do a terrible job that once again aiming to exploit the player first and making a decent game later

what you'd expect a square-enix freemium mobile game to look like



what you get instead

There are plenty of games that aren't this style of game on mobile.

i'm not saying there aren't, just that these are the one that get talked/noticed the most and as long as they are the one that get talked/noticed the most, freemium games will always be seen with a bad eye

SE recently have been putting out high quality titles like Hitman Go and Deus Ex.

More than that, we have things like Monster Hunter on the way. Which again, isn't for Android.

You bring up Deadman's Cross and not this:

http://m.

Or this

http://m.



What about Agito?

Your argument couldn't be more skewed or biased, friend. Not only are you playing on the wrong platform, you're playing bad games. Play good games only.

[Stoney Mason]

Final post on the subject. I get that people dislike f2p and what it can do. It can fundamentally change the nature of what makes a game enjoyable.

Plants versus Zombies the original is one of my favorite games of all time.

Plants versus Zombies 2 is one of the most disappointing games of all time to me. And its not even a bad offender when it comes to f2p. It's very possible to play through that entire experience without dropping a dime.

Even still it took something that felt charming, and warm to me and it felt it like it turned it into a cold, calculated, grind without any charm or class or humour.

So I completely get it. It depends on the property. It depends on how it's designed. And it depends a bit on what your expectations were going in.  That's certainly one side of mobile. It's not the only side though.

[demi]

Here is a F2P Square Enix game

http://www.ign.com/prime/promo/deus-ex-free

[Himu]

Agreed. It can be good or bad. But at the same time Tomb Raider retailed at 60 dollars. I beat that game in like two days on a rental. Good game, but sixty dollars? Neither price point is perfect, and I wish people would treat the situation as it actually is rather than having some odd vendetta against mobile which is a platform where hardcore gamers could subsist on for a long, long time.

[magus]

none of those two games are freemium himu

and yes agito is a thing, but it's a thing NOW... i'm not sure it can wash the bad taste of all the bad freemium game square-enix has released so far

[Himu]

Yes, SE has released bad games. But they've been releasing mediocrity for a generation of games anyways. Now that SE realizes that mobile is a viable platform for hardcore gamers, I think we will start to see better games from them, and as shown on this page, we already have. No big deal. No need to hold a grudge. Good games are good games.

[archie4208]

Thar she blows

[etiolate]

That's not enjoyment of a game. That's some ridiculous gesture of excess.

[Great Rumbler]

That's probably some Wall Street exec's kid. I'd do the same thing if my dad was loaded.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Don't forget the king of SE's shitpile, which they had the audacity to charge people for before making it F2P months later.



By contrast, I'm actually kind of excited to play FFVII: G-Bike, which is apparently F2P.

[The Legend of Sunblade]

Hence "which they had the audacity to charge people for before making it F2P months later".  I think it still counts because it's really easy to tell just by playing it for a little bit that the game was completely designed around being F2P but was instead given a price tag just because they could get away with it.

I don't really have a bone to pick with F2P anyway, good games are good games. I just like to pick on how awful SE's output could get in the past few years.

[magus]

none of those two games are freemium himu

and yes agito is a thing, but it's a thing NOW... i'm not sure it can wash the bad taste of all the bad freemium game square-enix has released so far

That'd be Deadman's Cross, Guardian Cross, Pictlogica, a couple of a la carte music games, and a few shareware games?  I don't think those are particularly heavy sins to carry.

TATANKA MAGUS DOESN'T FORGET!

spoiler (click to show/hide)

of course i doubt 2 final fantasy spinoff people have probably long forgotten or even played really matters but just to add in the square-enix pile of shame

[close]

also i'm not sure at what level square-enix is involved (pretty sure they just publish and they only publish in asia so i wouldn't point my finger too hard) but they are also involved with this bundle of horribad non-game

[Positive Touch]

keep on reaching like they havent been releasing full-length rpgs for years now, magoose

[Cerveza mas fina]

I just downloaded Champ Man (lol) , a football manager game by Square Enix.

It lets you choose a team to manage so i choose Ajax.

It then asks me 1.5 euro to do this.

This within 20 secs of starting the game.

Deleted

I know they make a lot of bigger games but this is absurd

[Eel O'Brian]

http://www.gamevice.com

[Himu]

God fucking dammit.

Nintendo HAD to start this stupid ass ANALOG ON TOP OF FACE BUTTONS movement with the wii u. And now every fucker is copying it.

ANALOG STICKS GO BELOW FACE BUTTONS.

[Eel O'Brian]

It's got R/L triggers and shoulder buttons, too. Of the various iOS controllers, this seems to have the most complete feature set.

[Himu]

It does. I may get one.