THE BORE
General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: Wobedraggled on July 19, 2007, 06:20:44 PM
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Dyack just signed his own death warrant.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=14759
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According to a statement from Epic's Mark Rein sent to leading news outlets including Gamasutra, the Unreal Engine 3 creator is the subject of a lawsuit from licensor Silicon Knights, presumably regarding UE3-utilizing Xbox 360 title Too Human.
Rein's statement, sent out to the media this afternoon, reads as follows: "This morning we were served with a lawsuit by Silicon Knights. We believe the claims against us are unfounded and without merit and we intend to fully defend against them."
The Epic VP continues: "We'd love to tell you more about it but unfortunately our lawyers want us to save our comments for the courthouse so we're going to do our best to comply with their wishes."
He concludes: "In that vein we'd appreciate if our friends in the industry and media would refrain from asking us about the suit because we're only going to say "no comment". We just wanted to share the news directly before the rumor mill starts churning."
Representatives from Silicon Knights were not immediately available for comment, but Gamasutra will update this story when more information about the contents of the lawsuit are made available.
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Silicon Knights too incompetent to make a good-looking game with Unreal Engine 3; sues creators. Good job.
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I want to see the legal briefing. I bet the header is something like:
"Knowing none but savage ways, a Brute."
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SK has the biggest case of not-our-faultitis of any B-grade developer I've ever seen.
Between selling them and selling Rare, Nintendo made a lot of good acquisitions last gen.
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So is this the sound of Dyack imploding? Wow
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No matter what they are suing over, SK is done after this. Nobody is going to want to touch them. No publishers will want to work with them, big companies like Nintendo or MS will no longer want to fund them. They are dead. Done. Kaput. They just bit the hand of one of the most important companies in gaming.
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Dyack replies back
"We stand behind everything in our complaint and believe it is highly unfortunate that Epic forced us into this situation. We would rather spend our time focusing on making great games, but as stated in our complaint, Epic simply refuses to acknowledge the inadequacies of the Unreal Engine 3 code it provides to its licensees," he said, "and refuses to accept the fact that its code has caused serious damage not only to Silicon Knights, but a number of other developers in the industry. We look forward to successful resolution of our claims in this court proceeding."
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No matter what they are suing over, SK is done after this. Nobody is going to want to touch them. No publishers will want to work with them, big companies like Nintendo or MS will no longer want to fund them. They are dead. Done. Kaput. They just bit the hand of one of the most important companies in gaming.
sega :lol :lol
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No matter what they are suing over, SK is done after this. Nobody is going to want to touch them. No publishers will want to work with them, big companies like Nintendo or MS will no longer want to fund them. They are dead. Done. Kaput. They just bit the hand of one of the most important companies in gaming.
Dyack is certainly done for. I would also probably go ahead and either quit (if the finances were ok personally) or start looking for a new job ASAP if I worked there.
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No matter what they are suing over, SK is done after this. Nobody is going to want to touch them. No publishers will want to work with them, big companies like Nintendo or MS will no longer want to fund them. They are dead. Done. Kaput. They just bit the hand of one of the most important companies in gaming.
No SK Wii games, I weep.
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:meeble
And yes, Frag has it right, if you are working there you should get the HELL OUT OF DODGE now
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Coincidence that just recently he said he would gladly jump to Wii? lol
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Silicon Knights sucks.
SK has the biggest case of not-our-faultitis of any B-grade developer I've ever seen.
SK is C-grade.
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Microsoft tossed them a big fat drop-dead timeline for the game probably a few weeks ago after they fessed up to not having poop for E3, I bet. This is desparation at its very worst-truly the only thing that would be sadder is if Dyack assaulted Epic's Coke machine.
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Like I said in that thread, Frag, they laughed at me when I compared Dyack to Smart.
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Like I said in that thread, Frag, they laughed at me when I compared Dyack to Smart.
I didn't see that yet, but yeah the comparison is perfect.
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Doesn't Dyack post on gaf? I would assume gaf serves him some shit anytime his name comes up.
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Doesn't Dyack post on gaf? I would assume gaf serves him some shit anytime his name comes up.
Hes posted on occasion (when his name comes up)
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After the Bell incident I'm sure Dyack is avoiding GAF in fear of his info being posted
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seriously, though, I dunno what Dyack is doing. this is going to kill the company.
the sad thing is--as crazy as he is--I think he knows that. which means that this move was seen as PREFERABLE to trying to finish the game...ever.
wow, SK siphons money, delivers subpar product years too late, who could have seen this coming except everyone ever
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I think SK is just some front development company that allows Dyack to launder his opium money
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the sad ? thing is, even if SK had a case, it doesn't matter. they are now anathema.
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Even if they win the case, no publisher will ever want to touch them. MS can't be happy that they just stirred shit in the family, and I doubt any other publisher will want to roll these shitty dice again.
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yeah I mean, business is shitty and lots of shit is shit
BUT IT STAYS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS
nobody likes a snitch!
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The best possible side effect of this story would be if notable GAF loser ARK-AMN killed himself out of depression when SK goes under from this.
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I've been hating SK since before hating SK was cool!
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yeah I mean, business is shitty and lots of shit is shit
BUT IT STAYS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS
nobody likes a snitch!
Exactly. I look at the GAF thread and see people saying shit like SK HAS A CASE! EPIC MISSED DEADLINES. Working in software, I see that shit happens all the goddamned time. It's standard business for software, and up until now, nobody in gaming has gotten sued because some especially shitty developers couldn't work around the issue.
SK, as far as the software industry goes, has no real case. The shit they cited is all par for the course.
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It would be funny if everytime someone I worked with missed a deadline I sued them.
I know I said I would watch Dexter but I haven't yet! Please don't sue me!
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I like Eternal Darkness. What other games are SK responsible for?
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I like Eternal Darkness. What other games are SK responsible for?
Legacy of Kain Blood Omen (PC / PSX)
Twin Snakes (GCN)
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UE3 is difficult for some devs though
Midway has a team dedicated just for UE3
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Dyack's complaint goes into detail about the E3 showing. I knew that was where this stemmed from.
Scenester: You liked Eternal Darkness? Yeesh
Well it was broken and dumb as fuck... but I found it to be pretty enjoyable and funny
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I liked Eternal Darkness too. Borrowed it from a friend and played through the whole game.
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And it gets even more ridiculous. . .Dyack wants ALL THE PROFITS from GoW!
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I think I understand Dyack's plan now. Instead of making a good game that will sell on their own, they decided to sue Epic to reclaim GoW's profits.
Oh Denis, you unlovable idiot you.
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Man, this is some drama I can get behind
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holy shit :rofl
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He wants all the profits from Gears of War? WHAT THE FUUUUCK?
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this is almost a non-sequitur!
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Remember Jeff Bell? Yeah, me neither!
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Internets lolz
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Dyack is officially insane
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DEREK DYACK
My guess is this-Dyack DID get UE3 at the same time as everyone else, but found some bugs in the code drop, asked Epic to fix them, they probably did but the next driver had some different bugs, and instead of doing what everyone else does and just fix the bugs and add features, and freeze your engine at some point, Dyack never clamped down on it to actually get his game in a servicable, testable shape where they could start adding content and testing things in.
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And it gets even more ridiculous. . .Dyack wants ALL THE PROFITS from GoW!
What a dumbfuck.
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Too Human better come out - I put $5 down on it!
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Here's the deal, does anyone remember my E3 impressions from last year?
Y'know, the ones where I came and called out Too Human as the worst game of the show. I'm serious. It had a disastrous framerate, shitty animation, wonky controls and hideous art direction. When I covered E3, I was used to sitting through some serious shit - we're talking multi-platform shovelware here (Spongebob Rapes Patrick: The Game, Bratz! The Morning After Pill, etc.) all over the floor. But Too Human was the only game that made me pity the poor goons hired to stand by and apologize for its awfulness. I didn't hate Eternal Darkness, but damn if Silicon Knights fell off my radar after that.
But the point was, that Ark dude on GAF basically threw me underneath the bus when I posted my impressions, and people believed his lies because nobody but him and I really even talked at any length about the game.
WELL FUCK YOU NOW, SIR.
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Too Human better come out - I put $5 down on it!
you know it's gonna be rushed to market and filled with missing content, bugs, half-assed implementation issues, and a borked endgame. the first 3-5 hours will probably play great, and it'll fall completely apart after that, because sk doesn't know how to keep a schedule worth shit.
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HOW MANY LUNCH BREAKS CAN DYACK FIT IN A DAY
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Man, it looks like I work harder than the guys at SK, and I was pretty sure that was impossible.
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Here's the deal, does anyone remember my E3 impressions from last year?
Y'know, the ones where I came and called out Too Human as the worst game of the show. I'm serious. It had a disastrous framerate, shitty animation, wonky controls and hideous art direction. When I covered E3, I was used to sitting through some serious shit - we're talking multi-platform shovelware here (Spongebob Rapes Patrick: The Game, Bratz! The Morning After Pill, etc.) all over the floor. But Too Human was the only game that made me pity the poor goons hired to stand by and apologize for its awfulness. I didn't hate Eternal Darkness, but damn if Silicon Knights fell off my radar after that.
But the point was, that Ark dude on GAF basically threw me underneath the bus when I posted my impressions, and people believed his lies because nobody but him and I really even talked at any length about the game.
WELL FUCK YOU NOW, SIR.
Too Human > The Darkness
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I liked Eternal Darkness, it was mindless fun.
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The only way this makes any sense to me is that Too Human is so far behind schedule and so over budget that it was never, ever going to be released, and that an insane Hail Mary internicine lawsuit was actually perceived to be the best business decision. It's hard to imagine a project being that fucked.
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Then its a good thing you dont have to imagine this happening, as it is indeed, happening.
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"In fact, at this juncture the Silicon Knights Engine should, at a minimum, be described under the Agreement as an "Enhancement" of Epic's Engine, which, as defined by the Agreement, is technology developed by Silicon Knights that improves upon the Engine and is therefore the property of Silicon Knights. Moreover, as development of the Silicon Knights Engine continues, the amount of code from Epic's Engine employed by Silicon Knights continues to decrease. After the release of Silicon Knights' Too Human, all Epic code will be removed from the Silicon Knights Engine."
What can we learn from this statement?
1) Dyack admits that Too Human uses UE3 code. However, he doesn't think he should have to pay for it.
2) SK has made additions to the UE3 engine, or a derivative work. Dyack believes this means SK now owns the deriviative work as well as the entire original work, the UE3 engine.
3 Dyack totally promises to stop using UE3 code, soon, honest. But he's not paying for anything, okay!
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Unfortunately, SK will not go away and TH will be coming out.
I am enjoying the doomsayers, but I doubt anything bad will happen to SK. Sadly.
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I can't tell if the Silicon Knights apologists over at GAF are carefully disguised trolls. Really. I can't fathom why folks would rally to support Dyack.
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Unfortunately, SK will not go away and TH will be coming out.
I am enjoying the doomsayers, but I doubt anything bad will happen to SK. Sadly.
Nope, this is it. Unless this turns into an I AM SPARTACUS moment, SK is dead. Nobody will want to be associated with them at all. If disputes like this arise, they are generally handled without whining to a court. Nothing out of the ordinary happened here, Denis just apparently didn't do proper research before giving the thumbs up to middleware. And now he just sank his own company.
And what with TH still being more than 6 months off (at least--I see another delay in the cards), I'd totally understand if MS pulled the plug on funding right now.
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Wow, there are not words to describe how far my eyes popped out of my skull when I saw the 'GoW profits' addition to this madness. Are SK claiming that the code they've added to the UE3 engine during TH's development was re-merged back into the primary UE3 engine codebase and then shipped out in GoW without credit? Unless that's what happened, I don't see how they can possibly make a case where they pull GoW or GoW's profits into it at all. Even if it were, I'd be amazingly shocked if Epic wasn't smart enough to put some kind of provision in the licensing agreement covering the addition of licensee code back into the UE3 codebase if they had any intention of ever doing actually doing so. You don't just embark on a wacky course like that without talking to your legal department first to make sure your ass is thoroughly covered.
Either way, Goodbye SK. LoK would have been good if you'd fixed the camera, ED PARGON was PARGON asstastic PARGON, and I never played TS but from what I heard the controls were borked. I agree with the earlier poster: good riddance.
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(http://i19.tinypic.com/4v35oab.jpg)
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:lol
Best Star Trek reference ever.
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[23:01] Will: Rein or Dyack - who would you fist?
[23:01] Doug: can't it be both?
[23:01] Will: NO THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE
[23:01] Doug: but probably dyack
[23:01] Will: Why?
[23:02] Doug: because he would misquote lovecraft as i massaged his prostate
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When a developer buys an engine they take out the parts of the code that limit their game so that it runs smoother but it doesn't make sense to think that SK with 15 years of experience put on a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow hat and told a lawyer to file this. I mean I realize the guy makes 1 game a generation but other than GoW, there hasn't been another UE3 game released and the fully operable version of the engine had supposedly been out for a year.
For the GoW code, that's either "engine-specific" or "game-specific" depending on who you ask but ID lets their licensees use all the code in their games and even beta or unused code. SK has said that they're going to make their own engine that does not benefit from the UE3 source code so for the goal of getting out of the licensing agreement with Epic, it seems they can at least get a refund.
Games like R6:Vegas that are called UE2.5 used a modified UE2 engine, Epic has still not released a fully operable version of UE3 on PS3 6 months after they agreed to release it. This could greatly affect holiday games.
For those pointing at how shit Too Human ran at E306, they were supposed to get the UE3 for 360 in march (2 months before E3) but got it in november.
I'd imagine that if SK can get a refund than a lot of developers will want one. Pretty much all games with UE3 got a delay.
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The point of all this.
SK is done, too human might not even see the light of day.
Epic will rage one and make assloads of cash.
bye bye Dyack.
He reminds me of Vic Ireland, a little too Ego based for the market.
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I can't believe the whole codebase thing. Its utterly amazing that he thinks that Epic actually used a modified UE3 that had some of Dyack's codeing within it? What? omfg hilarious
and the SK apologists seem to be Xbox 360 fans that were looking forward too "Too Human". They trumpeted the game last year (before the E3 shit) and did a whole lot of "bububu"ing when the E3 debacle occured. Now the game looks like its not even going to come about (or will have to get pushed way back) and Dyack is blaming it on someone else (shock).
I love how a certain poster on GAF actually tried to flip it and called everyone against "Dyack" PS3 fanboys who are happy with Epic and UT2K7, when it really is the exact opposite. You cannot defend Dyack with this, the dudes a douche.
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I can't believe the whole codebase thing. Its utterly amazing that he thinks that Epic actually used a modified UE3 that had some of Dyack's codeing within it? What? omfg hilarious
and the SK apologists seem to be Xbox 360 fans that were looking forward too "Too Human". They trumpeted the game last year (before the E3 shit) and did a whole lot of "bububu"ing when the E3 debacle occured. Now the game looks like its not even going to come about (or will have to get pushed way back) and Dyack is blaming it on someone else (shock).
I love how a certain poster on GAF actually tried to flip it and called everyone against "Dyack" PS3 fanboys who are happy with Epic and UT2K7, when it really is the exact opposite. You cannot defend Dyack with this, the dudes a douche.
who?
also, are you permabanned? :-\
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I can't believe the whole codebase thing. Its utterly amazing that he thinks that Epic actually used a modified UE3 that had some of Dyack's codeing within it? What? omfg hilarious
and the SK apologists seem to be Xbox 360 fans that were looking forward too "Too Human". They trumpeted the game last year (before the E3 shit) and did a whole lot of "bububu"ing when the E3 debacle occured. Now the game looks like its not even going to come about (or will have to get pushed way back) and Dyack is blaming it on someone else (shock).
I love how a certain poster on GAF actually tried to flip it and called everyone against "Dyack" PS3 fanboys who are happy with Epic and UT2K7, when it really is the exact opposite. You cannot defend Dyack with this, the dudes a douche.
who?
also, are you permabanned? :-\
Naw, just banned till the 31st of July. A slap on the wrist really when you concider the picture I had Photoshopped :lol
Oh and the poster is Chiggs.
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SK's claims are that they didn't get a fully functional version of UE3 even though Epic had it and that hurt their game's first E3 showing and is possibly going to delay other games that they have. If true, than SK certainly has a case.
I don't think SK is saying Epic used any of their code. In court, wtf knows who's going to win?
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SK's claims are that they didn't get a fully functional version of UE3 even though Epic had it and that hurt their game's first E3 showing and is possibly going to delay other games that they have. If true, than SK certainly has a case.
I don't think SK is saying Epic used any of their code. In court, wtf knows who's going to win?
I just think SK is looking for excuses, and saw others were having minor issues with the engine and decided to go for it, this could have been sorted out outside court, but Epic will bleed SK dry and the case will be dropped.
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SK: I am Spartacus!
Other guys: ...yeah, he's Spartacus all right.
EPIC: Take him away!
SK: :(
Also, he doesn't think that Epic used a modified codebase with SK's code in it. Dunno where you're getting that. He just seems utterly confused about derivative works. Like thinking that remixing a song gives you the rights to the original song, too.
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After reading more of it, donīt you guys think SK actually has a case?
I thought Vegas was using UE3, but it seems it used UE2.5 with some custom mods.
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man, i got all sorts of good conspiracy theories about this. remember sco linux?
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Unfortunately, SK will not go away and TH will be coming out.
I am enjoying the doomsayers, but I doubt anything bad will happen to SK. Sadly.
Nope, this is it. Unless this turns into an I AM SPARTACUS moment, SK is dead. Nobody will want to be associated with them at all. If disputes like this arise, they are generally handled without whining to a court. Nothing out of the ordinary happened here, Denis just apparently didn't do proper research before giving the thumbs up to middleware. And now he just sank his own company.
And what with TH still being more than 6 months off (at least--I see another delay in the cards), I'd totally understand if MS pulled the plug on funding right now.
I hope so, but I don't see it happening. SK will sell another stupid bunch of suits on their revolutionary next-gen idea, and Denis will use that capital to pay his employees to sit around and get back tattoos.
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After reading more of it, donīt you guys think SK actually has a case?
I thought Vegas was using UE3, but it seems it used UE2.5 with some custom mods.
SK does not have a "case" in the sense of "case that can be won." It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, if Epic did or didn't support them properly. They are going about this in full-on crazy homeless man and the industry is just going to turn their backs to them. Just like when they license a game engine, they don't understand the code.
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People keep saying that buggy middleware and missed deadlines are par for the course in software industry. That may be, but I'm not entirely sure if a judge is going to care about what's standard, even if poor service is the standard. I can see this gaining a little traction, but it probably won't reach court anyhow.
I've been hating SK since before hating SK was cool!
Your dismantling of Eternal Darkness has been a long-time inspiration for many.
ROVIAS IS SAVIOR SPELLED BACKWARDS!
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ROVIAS IS SAVIOR SPELLED BACKWARDS!
Well, it is.
Maybe hero K. Cayd Senid will come to bail SK out of their current fiasco??
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someone link me to patel's utter defenstration of eternal darkness. that was a good read.
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I don't remember writing one myself but there's a pretty good evisceration here (http://yukihime.com/?p=290)
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ooo, the former drinky crow -- i miss him
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really hope SK wins. denis dyack is a sweet guy that really doesnt deserve all the flack he receives at GA.
cliffy b is such a tool, but mark rein is even worse! he's so full of himself.
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Here is the complaint. Itīs not a "they donīt understand the code" thing. Its a breach of contract.
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/siliconknights_epic/siliconknights_epic.pdf (http://www.shacknews.com/extras/siliconknights_epic/siliconknights_epic.pdf)
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I'm gonna play Eternal Darkness again and raise my lighter to Dyack
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Silicon Knights was founded in 1992 by Denis Dyack. After graduating from
Canadas Brock University in 1991, Dyack formed Silicon Knights while in graduate school,
with a partner who left the company a few years later. It was the first corporate venture for Mr.
Dyack, and despite the various industry changes, the numerous financial difficulties faced by
nearly all videogame developers, and the fact that literally hundreds of such developers have
come and gone since 1991, Dyack has shepherded Silicon Knights through it all. To the extent
Silicon Knights has succeeded, it has been largely due to Mr. Dyacks perseverance and his
uncompromising dedication to a singular philosophy: gather talented individuals together and
allow them to create groundbreaking videogames.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
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Eternal Darkness was very well made. Production values were top-notch and voice acting was superb. It's as if Ubisoft modeled their entire company after Eternal Darkness and SK's vision of turning games more into cinema-like experiences.
Eternal Darkness was the first real next-gen "cinema" games.
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Silicon Knights was founded in 1992 by Denis Dyack. After graduating from
Canadas Brock University in 1991, Dyack formed Silicon Knights while in graduate school,
with a partner who left the company a few years later. It was the first corporate venture for Mr.
Dyack, and despite the various industry changes, the numerous financial difficulties faced by
nearly all videogame developers, and the fact that literally hundreds of such developers have
come and gone since 1991, Dyack has shepherded Silicon Knights through it all. To the extent
Silicon Knights has succeeded, it has been largely due to Mr. Dyacks perseverance and his
uncompromising dedication to a singular philosophy: gather talented individuals together and
allow them to create groundbreaking videogames.
hahhaaaha, ohhhhh Dyack!
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Eternal Darkness was very well made. Production values were top-notch and voice acting was superb. It's as if Ubisoft modeled their entire company after Eternal Darkness and SK's vision of turning games more into cinema-like experiences.
Eternal Darkness was the first real next-gen "cinema" games :)
this is what happens when you get a film school education
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Denis is a visionary. ED influenced and changed the industry more than you all think.
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After reading more of it, donīt you guys think SK actually has a case?
I thought Vegas was using UE3, but it seems it used UE2.5 with some custom mods.
Not at all. Unless they draw a judge that has no knowledge of the software industry, or if Epic has a poorly written licensing agreement (and since licensing has been one of Epic's main games for years, I bet they have a very tightly written one).
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Denis is a visionary. ED influenced and changed the industry more than you all think.
No, he's not a visionary. He's a con artist that rips off existing works of art and smashes them (poorly) together to make fairly competent games.
I like ED. It has some major problems, but in 2002 it was really fun for a kid in 9th grade like I was. However, once you realize that his "inspirations" are more like "copying points," the whole vision begins to break down.
The worst thing about it is he has no sense of humor at all when he approaches this shit. At least Kojima has soldiers pissing and shitting on people and gay vampires; Dyack thinks his reimagining of the Edda in game form is a serious work of art.
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Denis is a visionary. ED influenced and changed the industry more than you all think.
No, he's not a visionary. He's a con artist that rips off existing works of art and smashes them (poorly) together to make fairly competent games.
I like ED. It has some major problems, but in 2002 it was really fun for a kid in 9th grade like I was. However, once you realize that his "inspirations" are more like "copying points," the whole vision begins to break down.
The worst thing about it is he has no sense of humor at all when he approaches this shit. At least Kojima has soldiers pissing and shitting on people and gay vampires; Dyack thinks his reimagining of the Edda in game form is a serious work of art.
You're such a bore, kid. :lol
Everything is inspired from a source, idiot. Whether it be from a mother or mother nature itself, it's all inspired from SOMEWHERE. The fact that denis, like Bungie did with Halo, combined a lot of great qualities from various sources doesnt diminish his vision. His vision was something new at the time, period.
The fact is: Before ED came out, hardly any games featured such high-production value, fresh gameplay mechanics, mature plot, excellent voice acting, etc.
ED is very underrated and Denis is very underappreciated. You're just clueless, kid. :lol
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heads up, kids: this is louegi's schtick.
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Denis is a visionary. ED influenced and changed the industry more than you all think.
No, he's not a visionary. He's a con artist that rips off existing works of art and smashes them (poorly) together to make fairly competent games.
I like ED. It has some major problems, but in 2002 it was really fun for a kid in 9th grade like I was. However, once you realize that his "inspirations" are more like "copying points," the whole vision begins to break down.
The worst thing about it is he has no sense of humor at all when he approaches this shit. At least Kojima has soldiers pissing and shitting on people and gay vampires; Dyack thinks his reimagining of the Edda in game form is a serious work of art.
You're such a bore, kid. :lol
Everything is inspired from a source, idiot. Whether it be from a mother or mother nature itself, it's all inspired from SOMEWHERE. The fact that denis, like Bungie did with Halo, combined a lot of great qualities from various sources doesnt diminish his vision. His vision was something new at the time, period.
The fact is: Before ED came out, hardly any games featured such high-production value, fresh gameplay mechanics, mature plot, excellent voice acting, etc.
ED is very underrated and Denis is very underappreciated. You're just clueless, kid. :lol
let's look at dd's latest.
[youtube=425,350]hACsCnWg3NM[/youtube]
this is not inspired by x it's clearly a rip-off of the movies we've seen in 80s and 90s. it's as generic as they come.
bububu the nietzche quote, lol.
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Halo is just Aliens vs. Predator with better physics.
Any game can be diminished in such a way.
Name your game. There is no such thing as a perfect, original game.
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I thought we had higher standards from our trolls than this on the 'bore. No sass or creativity at all in that post.
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heads up, kids: this is louegi's schtick.
my schtick? what's that, friend? ardency? enthusiasm? loyalty? denis doesnt deserve to be hunted down by you bitches. what is this, a bitch hunt? :lol
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The complaint is pretty nasty. If you ask SK, this isn't a case of middleware that simply doesn't deliver on its promises, but a company that has intentionally lied about their product from Day 1. Supposedly Epic intended to fuck them over, and wanted for them to fail. How this makes any sense for a middleware company is beyond me, but oh well.
From the complaint:
"Epic's actions were intended to and did cause one or more of Silicon Knights' business partners to rescind their contracts with Silicon Knights and replace them with contracts whose terms were substantially less favorable to Silicon Knights...."
Sounds like they are taking it up the ass from Microsoft, after missing a bunch of milestones. :lol
Multiple times they re-iterate that they were on the verge of going out of business, and would have done so had they not started work on their own engine. That may just be made-up drama to paint them in a more sympathetic light.
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I thought we had higher standards from our trolls than this on the 'bore. No sass or creativity at all in that post.
im not trolling, you bore. go to GA if you wish to play 'trolling'. im simply expressing myself, perhaps blandly! :lol
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Denis is a visionary. ED influenced and changed the industry more than you all think.
No, he's not a visionary. He's a con artist that rips off existing works of art and smashes them (poorly) together to make fairly competent games.
I like ED. It has some major problems, but in 2002 it was really fun for a kid in 9th grade like I was. However, once you realize that his "inspirations" are more like "copying points," the whole vision begins to break down.
The worst thing about it is he has no sense of humor at all when he approaches this shit. At least Kojima has soldiers pissing and shitting on people and gay vampires; Dyack thinks his reimagining of the Edda in game form is a serious work of art.
You're such a bore, kid. :lol
Everything is inspired from a source, idiot. Whether it be from a mother or mother nature itself, it's all inspired from SOMEWHERE. The fact that denis, like Bungie did with Halo, combined a lot of great qualities from various sources doesnt diminish his vision. His vision was something new at the time, period.
The fact is: Before ED came out, hardly any games featured such high-production value, fresh gameplay mechanics, mature plot, excellent voice acting, etc.
ED is very underrated and Denis is very underappreciated. You're just clueless, kid. :lol
let's look at dd's latest.
[youtube=425,350]hACsCnWg3NM[/youtube]
this is not inspired by x it's clearly a rip-off of the movies we've seen in 80s and 90s. it's as generic as they come.
bububu the nietzche quote, lol.
That trailer is awesome. What's your point? That quote from Beyond Good & Evil is awesome as well. Although the book itself is trashish.
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heads up, kids: this is louegi's schtick.
so glad he's here.
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im simply expressing myself, perhaps blandly! :lol
I can see why you're enamored of Dyack, to be sure.
oh, im simply not a critical person, like you. but i do like how it sounds when you say "to be sure," as if you were smarter and more sophisticated than you actually are. :lol
to be sure, indeed. :lol
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YOU'RE SUCH A BORE, BILLY
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(don't feed the trolls)
Is anyone else as astounded by the sheer amateur nature of the complaint as I am? I mean it's not a legal document, it's a GAF post, chockful of self-aggrandizing praise, sob stories, emotional appeals, etc. Even if SK had a case (which they don't), this document--which Dyack clearly wrote himself--would absolutely not be the way to go about it.
Do you think SK even has a lawyer?
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if any game turned game developpers to a new paradigm of cinematic gameplay experiences and maturity, it's Metal Gear Solid, not ED
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Mondain, STOP TALKING TO THE TROLL
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if any game turned game developpers to a new paradigm of cinematic gameplay experiences and maturity, it's Metal Gear Solid, not ED
actually, youre right.
ED helped pave the way, though, especially on the gamecube. ED was one of the FEW truly cinematic games around during that era.
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also, is it a coincidence that the two companies collaborated on a MGS game? I think not. They share a lot in common, my point PRECISELY.
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heads up, kids: this is louegi's schtick.
Makes more sense now. Carry on then.
just put him on ignore. he's a classic oa contrarian who has probably participated in the futami account at some point!
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heads up, kids: this is louegi's schtick.
Makes more sense now. Carry on then.
just put him on ignore. he's a classic oa contrarian who has probably participated in the futami account at some point!
i am? examples? ive just conceded a solid-snake of a point above and yet im still a contrarian? everything ive said in here has been valid and hardly far-fetched. you dont even know me, only my false reputation that has been lionized over the years. dont believe the hype.
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just put him on ignore. he's a classic oa contrarian who has probably participated in the futami account at some point!
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sorry, little duder, praise for eternal darkness is so indefensible as to be considered a troll, and a pretty amateurish one at that. :'(
if you need to play contrarian and take shots at perceived elitist groupthink, may i suggest the similarly titled "the darkness" as a better target for rousing the rabble! see: jewco; transformers
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the darkness=eternal darkness
the = eternal
h = ernal
Japanese perversion = renal
the kidneys? seriously? oh, Japan
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
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sorry, little duder, praise for eternal darkness is so indefensible as to be considered a troll, and a pretty amateurish one at that. :'(
if you need to play contrarian and take shots at perceived elitist groupthink, may i suggest the similarly titled "the darkness" as a better target for rousing the rabble! see: jewco; transformers
how is eternal darkness so indefensible? IGN scored it a 9.6. i dont think it's too far-fecthed (my opinion), regardless of whether or not it's actually SUBJECTIVE in the end. heh, youre just ultra critical of denis the man, i suspect. what didnt you enjoy about the game?
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
ED is not a chore to control.
ED > Darkness
They are surprisingly similar otherwise!
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....
ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....
ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?
Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."
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TVC did I tell ya I met the guy who invented BF1942 at a party last weekend
move to the OC (don't call it that), I'll let you move in mah social circles
Eternal Darkness had a Xenogears-sized impact on the industry. which is to say, a lot of fanboys got hot and bothered and nobody else noticed
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TVC did I tell ya I met the guy who invented BF1942 at a party last weekend
move to the OC (don't call it that), I'll let you move in mah social circles
Eternal Darkness had a Xenogears-sized impact on the industry. which is to say, a lot of fanboys got hot and bothered and nobody else noticed
If I could find employment there, I would definitely move there, even if only to be closer to my precious Corny.
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....
ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?
Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."
ok, fine.
now how about come up with a game of the same "genre." resident evil, perhaps. yeah...
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Silent Hill 2 came out before ED and had better graphics, story, presentation, and FEAR FACTOR
WHY AM I ARGUING WITH YOU
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Not to mention that Silent Hill 1 came out even before Silent Hill 2! :o :o
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....
ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?
Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."
ok, fine.
now how about come up with a game of the same "genre." resident evil, perhaps. yeah...
Metroid Prime came out that same year, and despite one being a FIRST PERSON ADVENTURE, I think they share pretty much the same strengths, and weaknesses, and they are similarly overrated.
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vagrant story! :o :o :o
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I know you people are just reading DDīs self-bloating.
Read the thing starting in page 25. I havenīt read the entire document, but it seems Epic fucked up. DDīs claims of "sabotage" are stupid, but I can understand why he is so pissed off.
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I know you people are just reading DDīs self-bloating.
Read the thing starting in page 25. I havenīt read the entire document, but it seems Epic fucked up. DDīs claims of "sabotage" are stupid, but I can understand why he is so pissed off.
There's nothing particularly damning in pages of 25 to 40, which is where I stopped reading. These are the common complaints that everyone knows about it.
Denis just doesn't know shit about working with middleware, and it bit him in the ass.
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....
ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?
Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."
ok, fine.
now how about come up with a game of the same "genre." resident evil, perhaps. yeah...
Metroid Prime came out that same year, and despite one being a FIRST PERSON ADVENTURE, I think they share pretty much the same strengths, and weaknesses, and they are similarly overrated.
first of all, MP was not really cinematic, not in the sense of storytelling/cutscenes. the graphics were impressive and the gameplay -- at times -- was pretty impressive. i thought all the backtracking and enemy respawning was tiresome though.
metroid prime is indeed overrated, but ED? not really, as seen by all the hate in this and other threads.
the strength of ED was found in its story and cinematics, coupled with all the innovative gameplay ideas (e.g., insanity effects, unique enemy targeting system, flawless camera, etc.).
metroid only had one half of what ED had to offer, in whole. the story for metroid just wasnt there. it was the missing cinematic link.
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Silent Hill 2 came out before ED and had better graphics, story, presentation, and FEAR FACTOR
WHY AM I ARGUING WITH YOU
Yeah, but how was Silent Hill's camera and combat/gameplay? :lol GTA has better combat. :lol
Exactly.
ED married all of that and more.
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yeah, I don't know what to think about SK (not a huge fan but I don't think they're horrible) but it honestly doesn't look like it's hard to convince a judge that Epic has not done everything they agreed to and that SK could be given back their money. The GoW profits thing will be thrown out as BS.
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Eternal Darkness probably is better than The Darkness, when all is said and done.
considering the darkness came out in 2007, years after ED, it cant really be compared. similar... except years apart? right....
ED was unique for its time. Combat was original for an action game of its vein, story and characters were interesting, chapter progression was sweet, graphics were nice, voice acting was really really good... i mean what more could you want from a game of that era?
Being that, off the top of my head, BF1942 came out in 2002, people could have wanted quite a bit more out of a game of that, er, "era."
Battlefield 1942 looks bad compared to ED. Even BF2 has terrible graphics by comparison. It was just a run-of-the-mill multi-player FPS. ED on the other hand, introduced fresh gameplay mechanics, had an interesting narrative and spared no attention to detail. It also did an admirable job of telling story from multiple perspectives in a way that hasn't been achieved since the days of Maniac Mansion/Day of the Tentacle.
And yes, Silent Hill is definitely in the same league as ED. SH had the edge in graphic design, but ED had far better voice acting and script.
As far as this court case goes, it sounds like they may have a case, but these technology cases can go either way. There are certainly are a lot of armchair experts on the subject. I'd be interested to know what credentials they have. Probably nothing more than a hard-on for Mark or Denis. Personally I think they've both been knobs in the past. I'm all for whichever outcome brings Too Human to store shelves the earliest.
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Rein unleashes a counter-attack
http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=17095
Rein, however, insists that Epic has "done nothing wrong." He added, "We continue to be committed to fully defending against Silicon Knights' unfounded allegations."
Epic has filed a counterclaim in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina, which states that SK "decided to misappropriate Epic's licensed technology" and that their lawsuit "lacks factual or legal merit."
"Indeed, the plain language of the Silicon Knights' Complaint makes clear that Silicon Knights wants to take Epic's Licensed Technology, pay nothing for it, and use it any way it pleases," Epic said.
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After reading more of it, donīt you guys think SK actually has a case?
I thought Vegas was using UE3, but it seems it used UE2.5 with some custom mods.
Not at all. Unless they draw a judge that has no knowledge of the software industry, or if Epic has a poorly written licensing agreement (and since licensing has been one of Epic's main games for years, I bet they have a very tightly written one).
How can you say they have "no" case though? Too Human isn't the only UE3.0 game that's run into big delays, problems, and cancellations. Isn't GoW the only full UE3.0 game that's been released so far?
I don't know if Dyack is finished after this, but I'd imagine that Too Human won't be released this generation, at least not on the Xbox 360. Epic holds enough sway over MS to influence that kind of decision; there's already some tension between the two companies, and I doubt MS would even consider sitting back and allowing GoW2 to go multiplatinum.
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Epic Games' VP Mark Rein today sent select members of the media, including GameDaily BIZ, and update on the company's legal battle with developer Silicon Knights. Silicon Knights' President Denis Dyack believes that Epic kept a usable version of the Unreal Engine to itself for Gears of War development and provided Silicon Knights (SK) with the kit far too late. SK alleges that Epic harmed development of Too Human, as well as other Epic licensees.
Rein, however, insists that Epic has "done nothing wrong." He added, "We continue to be committed to fully defending against Silicon Knights' unfounded allegations."
Epic has filed a counterclaim in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina, which states that SK "decided to misappropriate Epic's licensed technology" and that their lawsuit "lacks factual or legal merit."
"Indeed, the plain language of the Silicon Knights' Complaint makes clear that Silicon Knights wants to take Epic's Licensed Technology, pay nothing for it, and use it any way it pleases," Epic said.
In the counterclaim, Epic outlined that it's "setting forth claims for copyright infringement, breach of contract, misappropriation of trade secrets, and for the imposition of a constructive trust, results from Silicon Knights' wrongful conduct, which is continuing... Epic seeks injunctive relief, compensatory and punitive damages, the destruction of infringing goods, including infringing computer code, and attorney's fees and costs."
[UPDATE] We're still combing through several super long legal documents that were provided to us. Some other important points in the counterclaim include the fact that Silicon Knights actually received a "substantial discount" on Unreal Engine 3 because it promised to use the engine on all of its upcoming 360, PS3 and PC titles. Also, Epic says that SK knew when it signed on that Epic was still working on certain features of Unreal Engine 3 and that features would continue to be developed and added as Epic completed Gears of War. As such, Epic claims that "SK knew when it committed to the licensing agreement that Unreal Engine 3 may not meet its requirements and may not be modified to meet them."
Furthermore, Epic said that SK admitted to developing a competing engine, "Silicon Knights Engine," as early as May 2006, and that this engine incorporates Epic's Licensed Technology, including code from Unreal Engine 3. Therefore, Epic is claiming that SK has "made unauthorized use of Epic's Licensed Technology and has infringed and otherwise violated Epic's intellectual property rights, including Epic's copyrighted works, trade secrets, know how and 'Confidential Information' as defined in the License Agreement."
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After reading more of it, donīt you guys think SK actually has a case?
I thought Vegas was using UE3, but it seems it used UE2.5 with some custom mods.
Not at all. Unless they draw a judge that has no knowledge of the software industry, or if Epic has a poorly written licensing agreement (and since licensing has been one of Epic's main games for years, I bet they have a very tightly written one).
How can you say they have "no" case though? Too Human isn't the only UE3.0 game that's run into big delays, problems, and cancellations. Isn't GoW the only full UE3.0 game that's been released so far?
If they draw a judge that knows anything about the software industry, they have no case. Just about everything I remember of Dyack's original document is par for the course for the software industry. Shit gets delayed, but people don't sue over it. It's the nature of the biz.
I don't know if Dyack is finished after this, but I'd imagine that Too Human won't be released this generation, at least not on the Xbox 360. Epic holds enough sway over MS to influence that kind of decision; there's already some tension between the two companies, and I doubt MS would even consider sitting back and allowing GoW2 to go multiplatinum.
I don't think TH will be released on any predictable schedule now. They'll run out of money soon, and MS has been known to put lagging developers like Doublefine to the curb before, even when close to releasing a product.
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the games are pretty expensive. i think it was $80mln for the entire trilogy lol.
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It doesn't seem like he's upset solely about the delays. He's saying Epic knowingly deceived them, giving them faulty software after taking their money. A court will decide what's what of course, but right now it seems to me like he's not pulling tapeworms out his ass here. But you and Drinky definitely know more about software than I do.
Good point on Doublefine. Dyack's interesting comments about working with Nintendo came after this lawsuit. I think it's very likely that MS won't be publishing any SK game's soon. Dyack made a huge fuss about Nintendo's current direction, and his urge to work with actual next gen tech. Now that he's proven he can't even do that, will he attempt to fall back to the Wii? If so I doubt Nintendo will provide much support.
And where is Sega in all of this? SK is developing a game for them.
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It doesn't seem like he's upset solely about the delays. He's saying Epic knowingly deceived them, giving them faulty software after taking their money. A court will decide what's what of course, but right now it seems to me like he's not pulling tapeworms out his ass here. But you and Drinky definitely know more about software than I do.
Those claims, that Epis knowingly deceived them and tried to SABOTAGE the development of their game are patently ridiculous. Do you really think Epic was so worried about Too Human that they had to sabotage the game? That's ridiculous, and I think even making that claim casts the more legit-sounding things in a sour grapes-y light.
And where is Sega in all of this? SK is developing a game for them.
Heh. <zips lip>
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Those claims, that Epis knowingly deceived them and tried to SABOTAGE the development of their game are patently ridiculous. Do you really think Epic was so worried about Too Human that they had to sabotage the game? That's ridiculous, and I think even making that claim casts the more legit-sounding things in a sour grapes-y light.
They probably weren't worried about the game, but perhaps they simply didn't follow through on their obligations with their partners. Like I said, TH isn't the only game using this engine that's run into heavy problems. If this goes to court expect people from Namco to be called by the defense to discuss Frame City Killer, as well as other developers.
Heh. <zips lip>
OMG TELL ME. Well strike that: is the game still in existence, and if so is the development going ok? You don't have to name the game/break NDAs you probably haven't signed anyway :-* :-*
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Those claims, that Epis knowingly deceived them and tried to SABOTAGE the development of their game are patently ridiculous. Do you really think Epic was so worried about Too Human that they had to sabotage the game? That's ridiculous, and I think even making that claim casts the more legit-sounding things in a sour grapes-y light.
They probably weren't worried about the game, but perhaps they simply didn't follow through on their obligations with their partners. Like I said, TH isn't the only game using this engine that's run into heavy problems.
We can't know what was in the writing SK and Epic signed, but we *do* know that in the lawsuit, SK did make ridiculous claims about Epic trying to SABOTAGE their game. Only one side here (so far) is making patently ridiculous statements in legal documents.
If this goes to court expect people from Namco to be called by the defense to discuss Frame City Killer, as well as other developers.
It's a lawsuit. Third parties don't really get called to the stand unless they want to be.
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I want to know more about this Sega issue!
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holy crap, me too, PD. White Man, tell us about how much shit Phantasy Star V is in.
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I think we have to offer our virgin asses to him before getting the info. IS IT A GROUP QUEST?