THE BORE
General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Prost on July 24, 2007, 01:16:39 PM
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Oh my GOD!
I can't believe this shit is actually happening HERE in America. 30,000,000 evangelicals? Is that a for real number? That's what the movie said....
I don't know if I believe that but..... what the fuck
The lady on that show is FUCKING CRAZY, they get a ton of kids together and tell them what pieces of shit they are, make them cry, and make them "talk in tongue" which is the most hilarious yet saddest thing I think I've ever seen.
This kids are going to grow up as motivated individuals who's only purpose will be to "serve god's will."
That's some fucked up shit right there. They think Bush is a god, and that new judge is a god. Fucking crazy people. You want to reach through the screen and punch the fuck out of them every second of the movie...
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It's an army in itself.
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This movie is a PERFECT example of someone taking a small chunk of people and attempting to paint an entire group of people by that example. It's pathetic, and you shouldn't let yourself fall into that tired old trap.
Seriously, just pause for a moment and think of all the groups of people out there, and how easy it would be to paint an entire group based on a group of similar, but completely different people. A perfect example would be someone seeing a documentary on a group of inner city gangbangers and their gangsta lifestyles, and someone walking away from the movie saying "Thats crazy, are all inner city black folks really that messed up?". The answer is of course not, and thats the same answer that can be applied to Jesus Camp.
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This movie is a PERFECT example of someone taking a small chunk of people and attempting to paint an entire group of people by that example. It's pathetic, and you shouldn't let yourself fall into that tired old trap.
Seriously, just pause for a moment and think of all the groups of people out there, and how easy it would be to paint an entire group based on a group of similar, but completely different people. A perfect example would be someone seeing a documentary on a group of inner city gangbangers and their gangsta lifestyles, and someone walking away from the movie saying "Thats crazy, are all inner city black folks really that messed up?". The answer is of course not, and thats the same answer that can be applied to Jesus Camp.
Maybe so, but the fact that there is ANYONE out there like this is disturbing, no matter the numbers.
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This movie is a PERFECT example of someone taking a small chunk of people and attempting to paint an entire group of people by that example. It's pathetic, and you shouldn't let yourself fall into that tired old trap.
Seriously, just pause for a moment and think of all the groups of people out there, and how easy it would be to paint an entire group based on a group of similar, but completely different people. A perfect example would be someone seeing a documentary on a group of inner city gangbangers and their gangsta lifestyles, and someone walking away from the movie saying "Thats crazy, are all inner city black folks really that messed up?". The answer is of course not, and thats the same answer that can be applied to Jesus Camp.
Maybe so, but the fact that there is ANYONE out there like this is disturbing, no matter the numbers.
Once again, there are lots of crazy people out there. If you want to pick a group of crazy people to punch through the tv though, I'd hope the Jesus Camp people would be pretty low on that list. I'd think you'd choose to punch people who blow themselves up in the middle of a market in Baghdad first. Or any other sick activities that people undertake everyday in this world.
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People that are telling little children to pray to George Bush are pretty high on my list of people that deserve punchings.
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People that are telling little children to pray to George Bush are pretty high on my list of people that deserve punchings.
Absolutely, and I guess I should make it perfectly clear that anyone praying to any other human being are pretty freaking crazy. I wasn't trying to defend their actions, but I think they're a pretty small minority in the big picture.
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Yeah, praying to a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush ranked up there as really disturbing on MY list, and I grew up in the Bible Belt.
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Who are we painting? Evangelicals? The freaks are not the minority among them. I grew up attending a pentacostal church weekly and waaaay before george bush and harry potter people were still speaking in tongues and getting slain in the spirit and casting demons and afflictions out of each other. They also liked to swarm like a hive of bees on any perceived evil.
Yeah, praying to a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush ranked up there as really disturbing on MY list,
Luckily most evangelicals can't spell or define blasphemy.
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Luckily most evangelicals can't spell or define blasphemy.
Yeah. 99% of evangelicals are full of shit.
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I always find it interesting how many of you grew up in a "christian" home. What I find sad is how many of you have let people taint your image of God, but I understand your feelings. I have yet to see this movie, maybe I'll rent it this week. :)
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Praising George Bush is not consistent with Christianity. I can see them saying to vote for him as he lesser of two evils, but to say he is a good Christian is nuts.
I was under the impression that churches were unable to make political statements outright supporting one candidate or party, and maintain tax-free satus.
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what is this God
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A fairy tale people tell each other to make death less scary.
It's ok, turn the light back off.
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A fairy tale people tell each other to make death less scary.
It's ok, turn the light back off.
how long has it been since you've gone? just curious
Edit: Bloodwake too
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i go to church when i visit the in-laws 'cuz they look so sad if me and my wife say "no". the pews in their little evangelical church are decent for sleeping in, unlike the nasty ones in catholic churches, so that's a +1 for baptists
still, what is this God
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still, what is this God
blame yourself or Him
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what is this God
A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETS!
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It's been under six months, because my dad makes me go whenever I'm in the house.
I've found ways around it though, so it's still been a while.
I think the last two times I went, the sermons were about how evil Harry Potter was and how Muslims are single handedly destroying America and bringing about the end of the world. I'm not kidding either.
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:lol
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A fairy tale people tell each other to make death less scary.
It's ok, turn the light back off.
how long has it been since you've gone? just curious
Edit: Bloodwake too
I stopped when I was 13. I've only been back in churches since then for weddings and funerals.
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I've never been to a church out side of weddings and funerals.
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I've got a theory that the more children are pushed into organized religion, the harder they rebel against it as they get older. I'm very thankful that my parents never made me go to church and let religion be a personal decision for me. This applies doubly for people who went to religious schools, they tend to turn out priests and athiests, almost to exclusion of anything in the middle.
I had been to church a handful of times growing up, no more than 10. I now go two or three times a month. I'm not sure what it helps, but it helps calm my nerves during a shitty week.
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actually people forced into islam just turn into alcoholics.
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I think we should all form our own online nation of islam church.
Whiteman can be minister.
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I think we should all form our own online nation of islam church.
Whiteman can be minister.
I am gonna send you a PM of what it will be like once I fuck the Jesus out of you.
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what is this God
A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETS!
I don't know if you were going for irony here, but if you were, brilliant.
If it was just the average Castlevania joke, then yeah, haha. But at this point i'd suggest sticking to the irony story(if you like I can explain to you just why it is ironic)
I still think this was the scariest movie I've ever seen and I show it to everyone who ever asks me to watch a "scary" movie when they're at my house. They're like, oh hey thats just my house why it is scary is it on fire HAVE I WRONGED MY GOD?
Meh, that wasn't too great.
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I just got an image of whiteman in blackface wearing a kufi.
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I think we should all form our own online nation of islam church.
Whiteman can be minister.
I am gonna send you a PM of what it will be like once I fuck the Jesus out of you.
you could focus your first sermon around it!
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I've got a theory that the more children are pushed into organized religion, the harder they rebel against it as they get older.
Well, if your parents are not pushing a religion on you, than what exactly are you rebelling against?
"Believe what you want dear."
"FUCK NO, I'M REBELING. I'M GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU GUYS BELIEVE."
Most parents who push organized religion down their children's throats actually produce credulous believers, not rebels. The Amish don't produce many atheists and Afghanistan doesn't produce many agnostics. Most children grow up to believe what their parents believe. However, children who are intelligent, educated, and sceptical tend to fly away from the flock and escape the mental prison house that is superstition.
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I was pretty caught up in it until I became friends with homosexuals. Once that viewpoint was changed, it was like most of my viewpoints changed.
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Well, if your parents are not pushing a religion on you, than what exactly are you rebelling against?
"Believe what you want dear."
"FUCK NO, I'M REBELING. I'M GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU GUYS BELIEVE."
Most parents who push organized religion down their children's throats actually produce credulous believers, not rebels. The Amish don't produce many atheists and Afghanistan doesn't produce many agnostics. Most children grow up to believe what their parents believe. However, children who are intelligent, educated, and sceptical tend to fly away from the flock and escape the mental prison house that is superstition.
that is such bs.
if you can choose to believe something else than you'll probably try to research it and possibly change your beliefs. most people I know who believe in a religion admit that they believe it because they were born it, all the very religious people I know got much more religious after adolescence (when starting to become an adult) and are usually modest about it. and amish people don't force their beliefs on their children, many let them go out into the outside world for a year when they're 18 to see if they truly believe in being amish.
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The Amish seclude their children from the outside world, provide them with a limited grade eight education, and indoctrinate them into the Anabaptist faith from the time they start crawling. They have to let their children decide whether they want to be Amish--not because it is antithetical to their religion--but because it is part of it. They're Anabaptists (meaning adult baptism)! Rumspringa is part of the Amish's religion not a sign of their tolerance. And if the children somehow decide to leave the church they will be shunned by their families and their community.
What choice do you have when you have been indoctrinated all your life, been provided with a poor education, been kept away from the outside world and will be shunned by your community if you don’t accept your faith and get baptized?
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Church of Satan since birth. :angel
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And if the children somehow decide to leave the church they will be shunned by their families and their community.
ONLY if they decide to get baptized then change their mind. If they choose not to pursue baptism during Rumspringa, they will not be shunned.
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Church of Satan since birth. :angel
[youtube=425,350]JARF7q2S6ns[/youtube]
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ONLY if they decide to get baptized then change their mind. If they choose not to pursue baptism during Rumspringa, they will not be shunned.
Umm no.
It is very common for those individuals who choose not be baptized into the church to be shunned by their community and even by their own families.
Which also concurs with what I have seen on a Oprah special :P. In this case Malek is right ultimately, Rumspring is not a real 'choice' but rather one heavily favoured to retain the ranks of the community.
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malek's right. People tend to believe what they were raised to believe. Otherwise, the religious composition of a country would randomly shift every generation.
Anyway, I finally got around to seeing the movie. That one kid with the rat tail is going to be something. He's what, eleven(?) and he already has a good grasp on metaphor, imagery, and just rhetoric in general. By the time he's an adult, he's going to be a hell of a public speaker.
I hope he has a David Brock-style change of heart by then.
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I've got a theory that the more children are pushed into organized religion, the harder they rebel against it as they get older. I'm very thankful that my parents never made me go to church and let religion be a personal decision for me. This applies doubly for people who went to religious schools, they tend to turn out priests and athiests, almost to exclusion of anything in the middle.
I had been to church a handful of times growing up, no more than 10. I now go two or three times a month. I'm not sure what it helps, but it helps calm my nerves during a shitty week.
I don't think it's as much of just the religion being forced on them as it is their behavior being controlled in nearly every way. There's nothing wrong with being restrictive with kids, but problems occur when you start restricting everything that makes them unique or a kid. If you tell someone everything is evil he's going to find out sooner or later that hey, everything is not evil. And when he reaches that boundary the question becomes "if they were wrong about this...what else are they wrong about?" I know so many kids I grew up with who have just fallen off the deep end. Once they got out of the reach of parental/church figures they just lost it.
About 6 years ago me and a friend were hanging around the mall; I knew him from the Christian private school I played basketball at. It was summer, and school had been out for around 2 weeks, so naturally we were having a blast. During this summer break he had dyed his hair, and also taken to wearing gold chains around his neck. So on this particular day at the mall we happened to run across one of the teachers at the school. We quickly said hi and sped off, laughing about the situation. When school started up a couple months later he was informed that he would be suspended for the first week, and given 50 demerits.
I saw him about a year ago and his hair was dyed, he had many piercings, etc. I'm not saying his appearance is "wrong", but he has used it to rebel against his former life and has gone all the way in doing so. That's a case where it's rather subdued though, as I know people who have left the church and dabbled heavily in hard drugs and other stuff. When you lock someone up and refuse them their human right to express themself it should be no surprise when they finally have a chance to express, they go all the way.
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ONLY if they decide to get baptized then change their mind. If they choose not to pursue baptism during Rumspringa, they will not be shunned.
Umm no.
It is very common for those individuals who choose not be baptized into the church to be shunned by their community and even by their own families.
Which also concurs with what I have seen on a Oprah special :P. In this case Malek is right ultimately, Rumspring is not a real 'choice' but rather one heavily favoured to retain the ranks of the community.
do you believe everything you hear? I know I'm right and fuck you if you say otherwise. Bitch
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do you believe everything you hear? I know I'm right and fuck you if you say otherwise. Bitch
So you;re mom was lying last night? :(
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do you believe everything you hear? I know I'm right and fuck you if you say otherwise. Bitch
So you;re mom was lying last night? :(
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/stinkyfishtaco/panda03.gif)
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Movie sounds good. Its playing at the local film festival ATM so I might check it out. Ive seen Hell House which is pretty damn sweet
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Crazy radical evangelicals, or any extremist like that...they scare the shit out of me.
I'm going to Nebraska soon. Is that part of the bible belt? Should I be afraid? We don't get too many crazies like these in Pennsylvania. The worst we have is the Amish, and at least they're gentle (except to puppies).
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the weirdest statistics in the movie are the ones I hope aren't true.
"There are 30,000,000 people in the evangelical group of America"
"75% of homeschooled kids are evangelicals"
It's just interesting that there are so many..... and you see the motivation in these kids so much that you're worried one of them will be really smart when they grow up, yet keep that deep meaning from when they were a kid inside of them.... and have some secret crusade to overtake our government or like start nuking muslim countries.
If ya haven't seen the movie ya can't really judge too many things about it. The one thing you know for sure is this is one of the more extreme types of camps and they're so far to the right that they need a new measuring chart just to place them.
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If anything, there are more than 30 million Evangelicals in America. I think about 25% of Americans are Evangelicals (that means 75 million). But don't worry, there children will rebelol.
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the weirdest statistics in the movie are the ones I hope aren't true.
"There are 30,000,000 people in the evangelical group of America"
"75% of homeschooled kids are evangelicals"
It's just interesting that there are so many..... and you see the motivation in these kids so much that you're worried one of them will be really smart when they grow up, yet keep that deep meaning from when they were a kid inside of them.... and have some secret crusade to overtake our government or like start nuking muslim countries.
If ya haven't seen the movie ya can't really judge too many things about it. The one thing you know for sure is this is one of the more extreme types of camps and they're so far to the right that they need a new measuring chart just to place them.
Isn't it kind of ironic that after seeing this movie you're more worried about Christian Evangelicals doing something crazy, than you are of extremist muslims, who have already shown a propensity to do such things?
It's funny what a good piece of propaganda will do to a person.
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the weirdest statistics in the movie are the ones I hope aren't true.
"There are 30,000,000 people in the evangelical group of America"
"75% of homeschooled kids are evangelicals"
It's just interesting that there are so many..... and you see the motivation in these kids so much that you're worried one of them will be really smart when they grow up, yet keep that deep meaning from when they were a kid inside of them.... and have some secret crusade to overtake our government or like start nuking muslim countries.
If ya haven't seen the movie ya can't really judge too many things about it. The one thing you know for sure is this is one of the more extreme types of camps and they're so far to the right that they need a new measuring chart just to place them.
Isn't it kind of ironic that after seeing this movie you're more worried about Christian Evangelicals doing something crazy, than you are of extremist muslims, who have already shown a propensity to do such things?
It's funny what a good piece of propaganda will do to a person.
Christian Evangelicals have also shown a propensity to do damaging things to the country. Just because they aren't planes going into buildings doesn't mean its not damage done.
Also, calling this movie propaganda is laughable. The people that made the movie showed it to its subjects after filming it, and they liked it. It's a fair, not very biased portrayal, which is what makes the movie kind of scary. It uses absolutely no propagandists tricks.
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most muslim extrmists are half a world a way, and they don't know my name. i have christian kooks on my fucking street, and they DO know my name!
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Facts are the new propaganda TVC. Don't be fooled.
It could have been a very pointed documentary, but I think the filmmakers must have realized that the whole thing would come across as even more legitimately fucked up if they skipped on doing the ol' Michael Moore hatchet job. The doc comes across as straightforward, and it makes the freaks seem even more freakier that way.
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Christian Evangelicals have also shown a propensity to do damaging things to the country. Just because they aren't planes going into buildings doesn't mean its not damage done.
Also, calling this movie propaganda is laughable. The people that made the movie showed it to its subjects after filming it, and they liked it. It's a fair, not very biased portrayal, which is what makes the movie kind of scary. It uses absolutely no propagandists tricks.
The movie is propaganda not because it bends the facts, but rather because it takes a tiny segment of people, and it gives those who have their own agenda a false impression of a larger group of people. An impression that is strong enough to convince people in this thread that a christian evangelical is gonna nuke the middle east one day, just because.
I think you're smart enough to have already realized that though.
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Christian Evangelicals have also shown a propensity to do damaging things to the country. Just because they aren't planes going into buildings doesn't mean its not damage done.
Also, calling this movie propaganda is laughable. The people that made the movie showed it to its subjects after filming it, and they liked it. It's a fair, not very biased portrayal, which is what makes the movie kind of scary. It uses absolutely no propagandists tricks.
The movie is propaganda not because it bends the facts, but rather because it takes a tiny segment of people, and it gives those who have their own agenda a false impression of a larger group of people.
No it doesn't. The movie even states that what is presented is just a segment of evangelicals. If you walked away from the movie thinking that it was representing them all (~approx 75-80 million compared to the stated 30 million) that's the fault of biases you walked into the movie with. Perhaps a persecution complex.
An impression that is strong enough to convince people in this thread that a christian evangelical is gonna nuke the middle east one day, just because.
I think you're smart enough to have already realized that though.
It's not a nuke, but our evangelical president is responsible for the deaths of some 70k civilians in Iraq, and we know that tactical nukes have been considered for use in the middle east.
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They should have gone out of their way to find more reasonable evangelicals and then included some footage of violent Muslims, because just turning on the camera and letting people speak is propaganda! Yeah, okay.
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Christian Evangelicals have also shown a propensity to do damaging things to the country. Just because they aren't planes going into buildings doesn't mean its not damage done.
Also, calling this movie propaganda is laughable. The people that made the movie showed it to its subjects after filming it, and they liked it. It's a fair, not very biased portrayal, which is what makes the movie kind of scary. It uses absolutely no propagandists tricks.
The movie is propaganda not because it bends the facts, but rather because it takes a tiny segment of people, and it gives those who have their own agenda a false impression of a larger group of people.
No it doesn't. The movie even states that what is presented is just a segment of evangelicals. If you walked away from the movie thinking that it was representing them all (~approx 75-80 million compared to the stated 30 million) that's the fault of biases you walked into the movie with. Perhaps a persecution complex.
An impression that is strong enough to convince people in this thread that a christian evangelical is gonna nuke the middle east one day, just because.
I think you're smart enough to have already realized that though.
It's not a nuke, but our evangelical president is responsible for the deaths of some 70k civilians in Iraq, and we know that tactical nukes have been considered for use in the middle east.
How can I have a persecution complex when I'm not even an evangelical christian? I've never been in an evangelical church in my life, and quite frankly I don't even think I know a single evangelical.
And where do you get this 75 million figure? It sure seems like the other side of the fence here, (people like yourself) love to overstate just how many americans are evangelicals. I'm sure as hell it's not 75 million or even close to that.
People have stated in this very thread, that they fear these people though. What's your defense for that? It's just rubbish. Just because a single evangelica got himself into the White House, and did some bad things, doesn't say a damn thing to me about evangelicals as a whole.
I'd be more worried about the people who surround this president, and we all know most of them aren't evangelical at all. The fact is, if you get a president in office of any faith, and he's stupid enough to go along with the plans brought forth by those around him, we're in for trouble. His evangelical faith has nothing to do with it. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Tenet, and many others are not evangelicals, and everyone knows it. But once again that doesn't stop those who have their own agenda's from somehow painting this administration's bad decisions as related to evangelical christians.
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Christian Evangelicals have also shown a propensity to do damaging things to the country. Just because they aren't planes going into buildings doesn't mean its not damage done.
Also, calling this movie propaganda is laughable. The people that made the movie showed it to its subjects after filming it, and they liked it. It's a fair, not very biased portrayal, which is what makes the movie kind of scary. It uses absolutely no propagandists tricks.
The movie is propaganda not because it bends the facts, but rather because it takes a tiny segment of people, and it gives those who have their own agenda a false impression of a larger group of people.
No it doesn't. The movie even states that what is presented is just a segment of evangelicals. If you walked away from the movie thinking that it was representing them all (~approx 75-80 million compared to the stated 30 million) that's the fault of biases you walked into the movie with. Perhaps a persecution complex.
An impression that is strong enough to convince people in this thread that a christian evangelical is gonna nuke the middle east one day, just because.
I think you're smart enough to have already realized that though.
It's not a nuke, but our evangelical president is responsible for the deaths of some 70k civilians in Iraq, and we know that tactical nukes have been considered for use in the middle east.
How can I have a persecution complex when I'm not even an evangelical christian? I've never been in an evangelical church in my life, and quite frankly I don't even think I know a single evangelical.
And where do you get this 75 million figure? It sure seems like the other side of the fence here, (people like yourself) love to overstate just how many americans are evangelicals. I'm sure as hell it's not 75 million or even close to that.
People have stated in this very thread, that they fear these people though. What's your defense for that? It's just rubbish. Just because a single evangelica got himself into the White House, and did some bad things, doesn't say a damn thing to me about evangelicals as a whole.
I'd be more worried about the people who surround this president, and we all know most of them aren't evangelical at all. The fact is, if you get a president in office of any faith, and he's stupid enough to go along with the plans brought forth by those around him, we're in for trouble. His evangelical faith has nothing to do with it. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Tenet, and many others are not evangelicals, and everyone knows it. But once again that doesn't stop those who have their own agenda's from somehow painting this administration's bad decisions as related to evangelical christians.
who let this guy in?
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Approximately 25% of the country is evangelical christian. I just assumed you were one by your not-so-informed attack on the movie.
300 million divided by 4 is 75 million.
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Christian Evangelicals have also shown a propensity to do damaging things to the country. Just because they aren't planes going into buildings doesn't mean its not damage done.
Also, calling this movie propaganda is laughable. The people that made the movie showed it to its subjects after filming it, and they liked it. It's a fair, not very biased portrayal, which is what makes the movie kind of scary. It uses absolutely no propagandists tricks.
The movie is propaganda not because it bends the facts, but rather because it takes a tiny segment of people, and it gives those who have their own agenda a false impression of a larger group of people.
No it doesn't. The movie even states that what is presented is just a segment of evangelicals. If you walked away from the movie thinking that it was representing them all (~approx 75-80 million compared to the stated 30 million) that's the fault of biases you walked into the movie with. Perhaps a persecution complex.
An impression that is strong enough to convince people in this thread that a christian evangelical is gonna nuke the middle east one day, just because.
I think you're smart enough to have already realized that though.
It's not a nuke, but our evangelical president is responsible for the deaths of some 70k civilians in Iraq, and we know that tactical nukes have been considered for use in the middle east.
How can I have a persecution complex when I'm not even an evangelical christian? I've never been in an evangelical church in my life, and quite frankly I don't even think I know a single evangelical.
And where do you get this 75 million figure? It sure seems like the other side of the fence here, (people like yourself) love to overstate just how many americans are evangelicals. I'm sure as hell it's not 75 million or even close to that.
People have stated in this very thread, that they fear these people though. What's your defense for that? It's just rubbish. Just because a single evangelica got himself into the White House, and did some bad things, doesn't say a damn thing to me about evangelicals as a whole.
I'd be more worried about the people who surround this president, and we all know most of them aren't evangelical at all. The fact is, if you get a president in office of any faith, and he's stupid enough to go along with the plans brought forth by those around him, we're in for trouble. His evangelical faith has nothing to do with it. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Tenet, and many others are not evangelicals, and everyone knows it. But once again that doesn't stop those who have their own agenda's from somehow painting this administration's bad decisions as related to evangelical christians.
who let this guy in?
Yeah, god forbid someone actually disagrees with the herd around here. Yikes. ::)
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It is spelled "herd."
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you haven't said why i, as a rational-minded agnostic with a healthy respect for the constitution and the separation of church and state, should be more scared of radical muslims and their rare terrorist strikes on this country than the omnipresent evangelical christians and their desire to usurp my rights in favor of heavy-handed religious doctrine.
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It is spelled "herd."
Prescriptivism is just groupthink!
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It is spelled "herd."
Thanks. ;)
you haven't said why i, as a rational-minded agnostic with a healthy respect for the constitution and the separation of church and state, should be more scared of radical muslims and their rare terrorist strikes on this country than the omnipresent evangelical christians and their desire to usurp my rights in favor of heavy-handed religious doctrine.
I would contend that you're still painting all evangelicals with a broad brush. Just because Bush has been one way, doesn't mean all the others will be the same. Have a little perspective on this guy. Bush was president during one of the more difficult times in recent history. None of us really know how another president would have handled this stuff. Even with someone like Gore in office, how do we know he wouldn't have enacted something slightly similar to the patriot act. People just like to assume that because Bush was in office during all of this, that it would have all just been a peachy time if canidate "X" were in office.
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when a president says god told him to attack saddam, you have a huge fucking problem. not necessarily with the religion, with the individual person.
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when a president says god told him to attack saddam, you have a huge fucking problem. not necessarily with the religion, with the individual person.
Here come the anecdotal quotes without context.
Yeah, I can remember that speach where Bush addressed the nation to say "I have heard from God, and I shall attack Saddam." Yeah, thats how it went. He just woke up one morning and it happened. There was no talking about it for months on end, no U.N vote demanding that Iraq "disarm of face serious consequences" in the fall of 2002. Nope, Bush just woke up and made it happen baby.
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So that justifies him saying it, then?
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So that justifies him saying it, then?
No, it's a distinguished mentally-challenged thing for any President to ever say he's doing something because God told him to. But to say that that is why the U.S invaded Iraq, is just ridiculous. I think quotes like that are the President paying lip service to his religious base. They're not actual reasons for why he went into Iraq.
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So that justifies him saying it, then?
No, it's a distinguished mentally-challenged thing for any President to ever say he's doing something because God told him to. But to say that that is why the U.S invaded Iraq, is just ridiculous. I think quotes like that are the President paying lip service to his religious base. They're not actual reasons for why he went into Iraq.
Probably, but it's not a good impression to give to the American people, that you are starting wars because god told you. That's a terrible notion, and it tells the more delusional American people that it is okay to do things beyond the pale because god sez so. It is not the job of the government to feed the delusions of the religious.
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This is the face of knee-jerk faux-centrism. "I'm sure that people in both parties are just as likely to do bad things, and let's not judge an organized social and political movement based on the goals it's openly working towards!"
Has he even seen the movie?
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God told me that he loathes fence-sitters. Come on Drinky, admit that you don't believe that god exists. Admit that you are a negative atheist.
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to make god happy, i will assert that he doesn't exist -- i don't want to go to whatever tier of hell is reserved for intellectual wafflers!
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And where do you get this 75 million figure? It sure seems like the other side of the fence here, (people like yourself) love to overstate just how many americans are evangelicals. I'm sure as hell it's not 75 million or even close to that.
http://pewforum.org/publications/surveys/green-full.pdf (http://pewforum.org/publications/surveys/green-full.pdf)
26.3% of 300 million = about 75 million
to make god happy, i will assert that he doesn't exist -- i don't want to go to whatever tier of hell is reserved for intellectual wafflers!
According to Dante, it's the level of hell where they stick your balls in a burning hot waffle maker for all of eternity.
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God told me that he loathes fence-sitters. Come on Drinky, admit that you don't believe that god exists. Admit that you are a negative atheist.
I don't believe god exists, but I don't like having to explain myself, and I really don't think one should have to display intellectual rigor on a belief when it is logical.
To make things easier, in mixed public company, I just call myself agnostic, which makes the explanation "Whitey doesn't know; Whitey doesn't care" acceptable to all parties.
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The Amish seclude their children from the outside world, provide them with a limited grade eight education, and indoctrinate them into the Anabaptist faith from the time they start crawling. They have to let their children decide whether they want to be Amish--not because it is antithetical to their religion--but because it is part of it. They're Anabaptists (meaning adult baptism)! Rumspringa is part of the Amish's religion not a sign of their tolerance. And if the children somehow decide to leave the church they will be shunned by their families and their community.
What choice do you have when you have been indoctrinated all your life, been provided with a poor education, been kept away from the outside world and will be shunned by your community if you don’t accept your faith and get baptized?
Wow, sounds like Scientology minus the Star Wars shit.
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what tvc said. the question of "is there or isn't there a Creator, or specifically, the Christian God" is so inane as to not merit legitimate personal evaluation beyond whatever's necessary to make sport of credulous idiots on the intarweb. why should I hafta assert -- replete with attendant logical arguments -- that I don't believe in alien unicorns from mars, as well? I refuse to give the notion of "God" any intellectual credence by exerting the necessary effort to dismiss it. the question ultimately has absolutely zero practical application in my life.
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I want to go to Jesus Camp. I bet there's alot of easy girls there.
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To make things easier, in mixed public company, I just call myself agnostic
I do this, too. You can't go about the south declaring yourself an atheist. People will jump in your business like white on rice.
Somehow, me being an indecisive female is more palatable.
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mupepe, come here and recieve the "good word" :-*
witness the release of the numinous and behold that which is ascendant
hallelujah
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People seem to have less revulsion for agnostics since they have rationality and modesty on their sides. I used to claim that I was an agnostic when I was already an atheist. Often when I've engaged with theists about the issue they have tried to show me that agnosticism is more rational than atheism. This, as has been pointed out before, is a bit odd since both positions are more rational than the theist's position.
Wow, sounds like Scientology minus the Star Wars shit.
Well, at least the Amish don't try top convert.
what tvc said. the question of "is there or isn't there a Creator, or specifically, the Christian God" is so inane as to not merit legitimate personal evaluation beyond whatever's necessary to make sport of credulous idiots on the intarweb. why should I hafta assert -- replete with attendant logical arguments -- that I don't believe in alien unicorns from mars, as well? I refuse to give the notion of "God" any intellectual credence by exerting the necessary effort to dismiss it. the question ultimately has absolutely zero practical application in my life.
Yeah, it is rather silly. But people don't believe in alien unicorns from mars or use alien unicorns from mars to support their political and ideological agendas and so unitards don't need to be refuted.
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mupepe, come here and recieve the "good word" :-*
witness the release of the numinous and behold that which is ascendant
hallelujah
do you love me?
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yeah, to the average christian proselyte, "agnostic" means "lost and confused and will ultimately find the lord." oddly, they very rarely harass you outside of an admonishment to attend church to find answers; i guess they just assume that your full-on return to the fold is inevitable.
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Speaking as a lapsed Catholic / lapsed Mormon, I have nothing at all of value to add to this thread.
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because, malek, asserting a belief that there isn't a god to these people gives the whole "GOD OR NOT" argument credence when, to my mind, it's just a silly permutation of "X OR NOT" where X is any random unprovable entity. I don't wanna discuss yer god! he's not relevant!
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Who was it that said "I don't call myself an atheist. I am also not an aunicornist or an afairyist"? Or something like that...
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the weirdest statistics in the movie are the ones I hope aren't true.
"There are 30,000,000 people in the evangelical group of America"
"75% of homeschooled kids are evangelicals"
It's just interesting that there are so many..... and you see the motivation in these kids so much that you're worried one of them will be really smart when they grow up, yet keep that deep meaning from when they were a kid inside of them.... and have some secret crusade to overtake our government or like start nuking muslim countries.
If ya haven't seen the movie ya can't really judge too many things about it. The one thing you know for sure is this is one of the more extreme types of camps and they're so far to the right that they need a new measuring chart just to place them.
Isn't it kind of ironic that after seeing this movie you're more worried about Christian Evangelicals doing something crazy, than you are of extremist muslims, who have already shown a propensity to do such things?
It's funny what a good piece of propaganda will do to a person.
well not to be mean but that's a really dumb thing to say. I care more about the actions of Americans, than the actions of countries that can hardly hurt us. how many years did it take them to kill 3000 people, and how quickly did will kill many times that number right after? it's a matter of the fact that these extremists are here in America. NEXT TO US.
I don't care about some muslim thousands of miles away, just his oil... lol ok that was low ;)
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It is spelled "herd."
Thanks. ;)
you haven't said why i, as a rational-minded agnostic with a healthy respect for the constitution and the separation of church and state, should be more scared of radical muslims and their rare terrorist strikes on this country than the omnipresent evangelical christians and their desire to usurp my rights in favor of heavy-handed religious doctrine.
I would contend that you're still painting all evangelicals with a broad brush. Just because Bush has been one way, doesn't mean all the others will be the same. Have a little perspective on this guy. Bush was president during one of the more difficult times in recent history. None of us really know how another president would have handled this stuff. Even with someone like Gore in office, how do we know he wouldn't have enacted something slightly similar to the patriot act. People just like to assume that because Bush was in office during all of this, that it would have all just been a peachy time if canidate "X" were in office.
people aren't disagreeing with the possible fact that maybe this movie shows the more hardcore side of evangelicals....
why are you getting so defensive, there was no bias in the movie at all. Evangelicals could watch it and go "hell yeah, we know what's up!" and I can watch it and think "man that's fucked up!"
that's pretty much as in-the-middle as you can get.
you're being really weird, but i respect your right to post even though i disagree with pretty much everything you have to say ;)
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Speaking as a lapsed Catholic / lapsed Mormon, I have nothing at all of value to add to this thread.
well that's a start :)
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The movie is not propaganda. Granted the documentary wasn't totally fair; they didn't do a great job showing two sides of the debate, despite having the talk show host guy giving differing opinions. I would have liked to have seen a Christian family (or families) interviewed who did not agree with the evangelicals seen in the film. But at the end of the day, very few documentaries are totally fair so that's not a good avenue for criticism.
Not every evangelical is as fanatical as the ones seen in the film but it would be naive to deny that millions of these people exist in this country, and they want to create their own particular "new world order". I've debated with evangelicals who feel all Muslims in this country should be deported, who feel homosexuals should be incarcerated in order to stop the spread of diseases, and who seem to glide over the first amendment as if it meant nothing. And many of them are some of the nicest people I've ever met, which is even more distressing about the whole affair.
At the root of this issue is church and state. If these people want to pray for George Bush by using a cut out that's fine with me. The line should be drawn when they attempt to push their religious beliefs into the public square by influencing our political system. I'm a Christian, and there are certain political issues that I don't apologize for mixing religion into - but when it comes down to using religion to segregate people or take away rights, a line is being crossed. That's dangerous, and Jesus Camp merely served as a glimpse into it.
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the weirdest statistics in the movie are the ones I hope aren't true.
"There are 30,000,000 people in the evangelical group of America"
"75% of homeschooled kids are evangelicals"
It's just interesting that there are so many..... and you see the motivation in these kids so much that you're worried one of them will be really smart when they grow up, yet keep that deep meaning from when they were a kid inside of them.... and have some secret crusade to overtake our government or like start nuking muslim countries.
If ya haven't seen the movie ya can't really judge too many things about it. The one thing you know for sure is this is one of the more extreme types of camps and they're so far to the right that they need a new measuring chart just to place them.
Isn't it kind of ironic that after seeing this movie you're more worried about Christian Evangelicals doing something crazy, than you are of extremist muslims, who have already shown a propensity to do such things?
It's funny what a good piece of propaganda will do to a person.
well not to be mean but that's a really dumb thing to say. I care more about the actions of Americans, than the actions of countries that can hardly hurt us. how many years did it take them to kill 3000 people, and how quickly did will kill many times that number right after? it's a matter of the fact that these extremists are here in America. NEXT TO US.
I don't care about some muslim thousands of miles away, just his oil... lol ok that was low ;)
When it comes right down to it, I simply do not share your fear of evangelical christians in this country. Yes, there are certainly some pure whackos in the bunch, but overall I feel no threat from them, and their beliefs. The ones with the truly wacky beliefs are simply too few to truly become the majority, ever.
The differences I see between those people, and Al Qaeda, is that a much larger percentage of the muslim world seems to be sympathetic to Al Qaeda's actions, and beliefs. There are a shit ton more radical muslims being raised right now in the middle east, and many of them live in countries where their future's are so bleak, they might as well join the fight against the western societies.
So, when you get right down to it, I just don't believe those evangelicals are gonna cause me and my family any harm. Maybe one lunatic will do something every now and again, but it's not the kind of organized thought that you see in many muslims around the world right now.