THE BORE
General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: brawndolicious on December 14, 2007, 04:48:15 PM
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http://tailrank.com/4241770/Amazon-Ordered-to-End-Free-Delivery-on-Books-in-France
this is just stupid. it's because B&M stores can't compete.
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They are only looking out for the poor, poor B&M owners. Never mind if their business model is outdated.
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That's bullcrap! No wonder there's lots of riots in France. :punch
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They are only looking out for the poor, poor B&M owners. Never mind if their business model is outdated.
B&Ms can't compete with Amazon. Amazon is big enough to barter delivery deals with delivery services, whereas the same services would LAUGH at B&M stores if they tried to do the same.
The B&M business model is not outdated; it's just that Amazon uses unfair advantages that B*M stores could never hope to have.
I like free shipping, but it cannot be denied that Amazon is using its size and influence to do things that small shops can't. That is borderline monopoly behavior. Fuck libertarians.
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I dont want free shipping!!! Please tell them its illegal!! It hurts mom and pop book stores.
:lol
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The B&M business model is not outdated; it's just that Amazon uses unfair advantages that B*M stores could never hope to have.
What advantage is that?
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B&Ms can't compete with Amazon. Amazon is big enough to barter delivery deals with delivery services, whereas the same services would LAUGH at B&M stores if they tried to do the same.
The B&M business model is not outdated; it's just that Amazon uses unfair advantages that B*M stores could never hope to have.
I like free shipping, but it cannot be denied that Amazon is using its size and influence to do things that small shops can't. That is borderline monopoly behavior. Fuck libertarians.
(http://students.philau.edu/lane2/obey.jpg)
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The B&M business model is not outdated; it's just that Amazon uses unfair advantages that B*M stores could never hope to have.
What advantage is that?
They're a hugeass company that does far more business than a brick and mortar can ever hope to do. This is true whether they can offer free shipping or not. Free shipping, as it is, is something of a nail in the coffin.
I am not saying they should be punished for being successful, before you imply that.
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I wouldn't have any reason to shop at Amazon if all the other B&M bookstores didn't sell everything at motherfucking LIST PRICE. How about we focus on competing at that angle before we start bitching about unfair shipping advantages?
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I wouldn't have any reason to shop at Amazon if all the other B&M bookstores didn't sell everything at motherfucking LIST PRICE. How about we focus on competing at that angle before we start bitching about unfair shipping advantages?
I agree as well, but that would be a much more difficult battle to win. Considering that B&M stores cannot really legally work together in an efficient manner (another advantage of the large corporation), I think this is as good as we can hope at the moment.
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The B&M business model is not outdated; it's just that Amazon uses unfair advantages that B*M stores could never hope to have.
What advantage is that?
They're a hugeass company that does far more business than a brick and mortar can ever hope to do. This is true whether they can offer free shipping or not. Free shipping, as it is, is something of a nail in the coffin.
I am not saying they should be punished for being successful, before you imply that.
You are saying that since you think they shouldnt be allowed to offer incentives to buy from them.
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Amazon has plenty of advantages, aside from Free Shipping. You think that's the only reason people buy things there?
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Amazon has plenty of advantages, aside from Free Shipping. You think that's the only reason people buy things there?
What does that have to do with anything?
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Look, FoC, I'm not going to bother arguing. This isn't something we will see eye to eye on. From my point of view, arguing this is as wasteful to my words as pouring glasses of water down the gutter during a rainstorm. Just understand, at the very least, that your point of view is not the only one that can be argued, and that your also that it isn't one likely to be shared by countries that are not as addicted to corporations as the United States.
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ok, but I still think that if amazon wants to offer free shipping, france's government can fuck themselves.
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Fine, you side with corporations, we get it, you're a libertarian. Let's move on.
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damn I just got my books from amazon, free shipping rox
they use usps priority too
lucky me I dont live in france
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There's nothing like going into a bookshop with personality. I appreciate that Amazon has everything I can possibly want as far as products go, but there's nothing like going into, say, The Elliot Bay Book Company and being pounded by the booky atmosphere.
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Soul counts for a lot, in all things. Similar to how I would rather pay 60 bucks for a decent 360 game than 50 for a decent Wii game. FoC is, of course, the opposite in every way that can be imagined.
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Soul counts for a lot, in all things. Similar to how I would rather pay 60 bucks for a decent 360 game than 50 for a decent Wii game. FoC is, of course, the opposite in every way that can be imagined.
Soul does count alot. We have a local bookstore called Book People that is bad ass. I dont mind paying the extra price to shop there. Some people do.
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So would you be in favor of enacting laws to keep businesses like that open?
Why would I? If they cant offor the "soul" to compete in then they shouldn't stay open.
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That is where we fundamentally differ.
They wont offer the "soul" unless they have to, to survive. If you get rid of their competition they will have no reason to compete.
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"Soul" in here is not something offered; it's something you either have or you don't. Large corporations generally (almost always?) lack it.
FA: you say some agreeable things, but I don't particularly see why the conclusion should be to agree with free shipping. Amazon has many advantages in addition to free shipping that cannot (and should not) be taken away.
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"Soul" in here is not something offered; it's something you either have or you don't. Large corporations generally (almost always?) lack it.
FA: you say some agreeable things, but I don't particularly see why the conclusion should be to agree with free shipping. Amazon has many advantages in addition to free shipping that cannot (and should not) be taken away.
The only free shipping I get from Amazon is through Amazon Prime. I'm going to guess they offer a similar deal on slow shipping if someone is to purchase above a certain dollar amount.
Free shipping is one of the major benefits B&M stores can't realistically provide.
Offering a setting and providing a place where one can pick up and buy a book is something Amazon cannot provide.
Those are the basic tradeoffs between e-commerce and regular commerce. If consumers feel one is more important than the other, why should laws be created to contradict that? It's unfortunate, but local sellers have to provide a unique enough experience to compete. If they can't compel readers to go to their stores, then they're not doing a good enough job.
Like I said to FoC, we are not going to see eye to eye on this, that's that.
Let me distill my PoV. It's really not about money at all, to me.
I love books. The Elliot Bay Book Co loves books. Genghis and FoC's respective bookstores love books. Amazon loves business and money above books. There is room for both of these kinds of businesses in the world--both are very very good--but I would not appreciate seeing our beloved Book Loving Bookstores die because Amazon is able to use its size, and the money it loves very very much, to make deals that are at best in a grey area.
There's room for both stores, above all. heck, both kinds are absolutely necessary. I woul dhate to see either kind killed either inadvertantly or on purpose.
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Or most people are too stupid to appreciate nice things, but that is a whole different discussion.
Then you should try and educate the stupid people that dont appreciate it.
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I don't know any good book stores around. Hence, I buy shit from Amazon. It's better than Borders/Barnes and Noble.
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So basically, you are for independent bookstores dying, then? I never said Amazon should be punished; I said they should not be able to use their size and corporate nature in order to get benefits that other, non-corporate stores cannot get. That is playing fair, not punishment.
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You're the one that thinks Amazon should be free to use unfair advantages. How else does that read?
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You're the one that thinks Amazon should be free to use unfair advantages. How else does that read?
What unfair advantage?
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Amazon: Hi, we're Amazon. Deliver shit for us. We are huge.
UPS: Okay.
Elliot Bay Book Co: Hi, we are the Elliot Bay Book Company. Deliver shit for us. We, uh, have a nice store.
UPS: Go fuck yourself, hippie.
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How is that unfair? Amazon is going to be a much bigger customer of UPS.
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This is why we won't see eye to eye. Just forget it. It's a point I can't change your mind on. I'm not trying to do so.
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That's cool, sorry if I came off like a prick. I used to work for a brick and mortar that I loved very much. . .until it was killed by the unfair practices of Borders. Brick and mortar stores get raped on all sides, not just by Amazon. It is impossible for them to not be "outdated."
Heck, Amazon is small potatoes next to the 2 big chains, even.
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That's cool, sorry if I came off like a prick. I used to work for a brick and mortar that I loved very much. . .until it was killed by the unfair practices of Borders. Brick and mortar stores get raped on all sides, not just by Amazon. It is impossible for them to not be "outdated."
Heck, Amazon is small potatoes next to the 2 big chains, even.
Borders fucking sucks. Ugh.
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Basically, if you want a good example of how the libertarian INVISIBLE HAND OF THE MARKET MAKES ALL RIGHT is complete bullshit, take a look at the retail book marketplace for a mostly clear microcosm.
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Wait, so you're not a libertarian anymore, TVC? I thought that thread a while back was a joke.
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I wish there were more little book stores with dusty bookz
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Wait, so you're not a libertarian anymore, TVC? I thought that thread a while back was a joke.
No. . .I hold some libertarian-leaning beliefs, but I reject the label. Too many dumbass shitheads that I do not want to be associated with.
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Wait, so you're not a libertarian anymore, TVC? I thought that thread a while back was a joke.
No. . .I hold some libertarian-leaning beliefs, but I reject the label. Too many dumbass shitheads that I do not want to be associated with.
Which beliefs do you hold?
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Oh, alright. I wouldn't want to be lumped in with them either.
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Wait, so you're not a libertarian anymore, TVC? I thought that thread a while back was a joke.
No. . .I hold some libertarian-leaning beliefs, but I reject the label. Too many dumbass shitheads that I do not want to be associated with.
Which beliefs do you hold?
Oh, I don't want to think about it too much and write up a long muddled post. I am mainly apolitical, as in I do not care about politics or expressing my own politics, so I really view it as a waste of time to think about.
The gross simplification of my beliefs would be that I am for individual liberty, but with regulations, possibly many regulations, on businesses and how they behave.
I would probably be classified as a post-left anarchist, or possibly a post-anarchist.
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Thats cool. Do you agree with their core argument for limited government?
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if you read Making Light you can read some fucked up shit about book publisher practices
basically, if publishers had their way, we would all be reading the top 50 best sellers and nothing else, plus booksellers would not get any money
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Thats cool. Do you agree with their core argument for limited government?
For the most part, yes. I am not for social programs (in the welfare, handout sense) and law enforcement and the overhead that both create, but I do think education and health care need to be a higher priorities than they currently are, and I believe that the offering of some "social" programs for the purpose of jobs and employment are necessary, like the military and other more altruistic social groups.
Again, degrees and exacts, I can't really give you. Thinking about this is little more than a mind game. None of it will ever come to pass in America.
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Oh, alright. I wouldn't want to be lumped in with them either.
Aren't you in Manhattan? The Strand dude!
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Oh, alright. I wouldn't want to be lumped in with them either.
Aren't you in Manhattan? The Strand dude!
No, I'm out on the Island. :-\
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What is the island?
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Long Island
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That's a shame. One of my first short stories in college was titled All People from Long Island are Scumbags.
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Poor tiesto :(
Does being born in Queens help my cause at all?
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Poor tiesto :(
Was my title right or wrong? Or mostly right or mostly wrong? I wrote that when I was 18, and almost 9 years later, I still think I was at least mostly right.
EDIT: My university had a large contingent of rich assholes from Long Island.
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No, it's mostly right. I want to leave the minute I finish college. Well, I want to leave NOW, but I should really finish something...
Where'd you go?
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University of Scranton.
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Filthy sophist.
I think I have been largely freed from the temptations of sophistry. I think I am a sound thinker, and I always reject accepting what seems "easy," at least until I have weighed all factors I can think of. I am not easily influenced.
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does US have any sort of book cartel like france? I'd imagine Amazon will just figure out a way to give out free shipping coupons.
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Oh, alright. I wouldn't want to be lumped in with them either.
Aren't you in Manhattan? The Strand dude!
No, I'm out on the Island. :-\
:yuck get out of there d00d
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It was a joke, jesuit.
:-*
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Oh, alright. I wouldn't want to be lumped in with them either.
Aren't you in Manhattan? The Strand dude!
No, I'm out on the Island. :-\
:yuck get out of there d00d
Will you let me be your roommate? :-[
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I don't have a place in new york city outside of my mom's apartment :-\ after university is done I'll probably be starting a free lance business outside of her house until I can afford an apartment in Brooklyn or something. Then we'll talk. Unless you've already offed yourself.
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If I were ever going to kill myself, I would've done it by now.
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Long Island Guido's!!!! :yuck
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Long Island Guido's!!!! :yuck
[youtube=425,350]4JMOh-cul6M[/youtube]
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I never met a long island guido, and I knew a fair few long island eyetalians.
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Guido's don't actually socialize with people.
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Well, to be fair, most of the long island italians I met when I was in college and I imagine most guidos avoid the whole learning environment thing.
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Well, to be fair, most of the long island italians I met when I was in college and I imagine most guidos avoid the whole learning environment thing.
Somewhat true. If they do go to college, it's either community college or a SUNY.
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MUSCLE MILK!!!! haha so true
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You don't have to be a libertarian to believe that businesses should be free to negotiate with each other and make trade offs when it comes to pricing and volume. If you like bookstores with small selections, high prices, and over-educated staffs--I mean soul--then you pay for it!
Do you care about the small Armenian electronic stores and the mom and pop grocers?
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I sure dont!
Books way under priced and free shipping plz
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Most of the Mom and Pop type bookstores I liked here in town got shitheaped when the chains started popping up. First Waldenbooks and B. Dalton, then B-A-M and B&N. I fucking hate B&N. Goddamned chairs and sofas and lattes and snack cakes and shit, and every other book I pick up has some fucking greasy fingerprints or is bent all to fuck from some freeloading sonofabitch who read it in the store.
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Most of the Mom and Pop type bookstores I liked here in town got shitheaped when the chains started popping up. First Waldenbooks and B. Dalton, then B-A-M and B&N. I fucking hate B&N. Goddamned chairs and sofas and lattes and snack cakes and shit, and every other book I pick up has some fucking greasy fingerprints or is bent all to fuck from some freeloading sonofabitch who read it in the store.
The worst part? All those "chains" are actually the same two chains. It's the ILLUSION of diversity and choice. INVISIBLE HAND OF THE MARKET MAKES ALL RIGHT!!!
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When I was a kid, we had a bookstore here called Little Professor, and the old guy who ran it would hold new comic books in the back for me. He remembered what I read, and would set them aside. That's something you'll never, ever get at a chain. Little Professor was in the same shopping center as a deli called The Pickle Barrel, and I always used to get my comics and then go have a cream soda while I read them. It was like something out of the 1950s. Now it's all chains and strip malls here in Wilmington.
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When I was a kid, we had a bookstore here called Little Professor, and the old guy who ran it would hold new comic books in the back for me. He remembered what I read, and would set them aside. That's something you'll never, ever get at a chain. Little Professor was in the same shopping center as a deli called The Pickle Barrel, and I always used to get my comics and then go have a cream soda while I read them. It was like something out of the 1950s. Now it's all chains and strip malls here in Wilmington.
That's so awesome...
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Even downtown by the riverfront (which is still beautiful) is getting eaten up by condominiums and fake-retro loft-style apartments.
The biggest atrocity is this place called Mayfaire. It's a "Shopping Town," designed to give off the appearance of a downtown block, with - I shit you not - condos over the stores. So you can pay 200k or more for the privilege of living directly over a Barnes and Noble.
I know I sound like an old man, but the older you get the more you notice ephemeral quantities like a town's beauty and personality disappearing beneath this all-consuming corporate undertow.
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Even downtown by the riverfront (which is still beautiful) is getting eaten up by condominiums and fake-retro loft-style apartments.
The biggest atrocity is this place called Mayfaire. It's a "Shopping Town," designed to give off the appearance of a downtown block, with - I shit you not - condos over the stores. So you can pay 200k or more for the privilege of living directly over a Barnes and Noble.
I know I sound like an old man, but the older you get the more you notice ephemeral quantities like a town's beauty and personality disappearing beneath this all-consuming corporate undertow.
I'm with you. It's sad seeing the homey nature of communities disappear due to greedy commercialism. I don't think it should be legislated against, but I do find it kind of absolutely disgusting. America truly has been bought and sold.
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And for what? Half these strip malls and "Shopping Communities" will be abandoned corporate ghost towns within ten years.
Don't get me wrong. I love a good bargain. I'm a cheap motherfucker who works hard for his dollars, so I shop around, and I do business with Amazon. I know everyone kids about "filthy poors" and all, but the surest route to becoming a filthy poor is not watching or caring where your money goes. But I'd make do with less if I thought it would bring back some of the places I miss the most. It won't, though. We're already over the precipice as far as that's concerned. All those places are gone forever. So, by doing business on Amazon I'm really just helping stick it to B&N and B-A-M, so I guess there is the slightest bit of justice there. Given the choice between devils, I'll choose the one that isn't planted in a faux town within my town.