THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 05:43:47 PM

Title: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 05:43:47 PM
In light of the awards tonight, and being obsessed with Glengarry Glen Ross at the moment, I felt like making this thread.

How the fuck did Glengarry NOT get an Adapted Screenplay nod? How the fuck???

And yes, Forrest Gump, we know.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 24, 2008, 05:54:55 PM
The Departed, Titanic, etc.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 05:56:55 PM
Well, I was hoping for some we don't bring up all the time. :P
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mupepe on February 24, 2008, 05:58:38 PM
Leonardo Dicaprio should have won an Oscar for What's Eating Gilbert Grape? but instead, Tommy Lee Jones did for The Fugitive.  Fucking bullshit.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 24, 2008, 06:01:15 PM
Al Pacino's token Oscar for HOO HA I'M BLIND AND CRANKY
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Smooth Groove on February 24, 2008, 06:05:26 PM
Halle Berry's token Oscar for HOO HA I'M BLACK AND I SHOWED MY FLOPPY TITS
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 06:05:52 PM
Whatever. Forest Gump 10/10 :bow

Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Powerslave on February 24, 2008, 06:07:00 PM
Man who cares for the Oscar's. We all know the people who deserve to win them never do.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Rman on February 24, 2008, 06:09:03 PM
How about Traffic winning best picture?  I still can't believe that won.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Hitler Stole My Potato on February 24, 2008, 06:15:44 PM
Marisa Tomei for My Cousin Vinnie and nothing for Goodfellas.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 06:16:50 PM
Taxi Driver? Raging Bull? GOODFELLAS?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: EvilBoris on February 24, 2008, 06:26:07 PM
How about Traffic winning best picture?  I still can't believe that won.

 Gladiator won that year.... feel any better?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 07:02:27 PM
How the fuck did Glengarry NOT get an Adapted Screenplay nod? How the fuck???

Would it even count?  The movie was already a play. It wasn't adapted from a non-script source.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: brawndolicious on February 24, 2008, 07:14:13 PM
Well the last 3 best picture's were the departed, crash, and million dollar baby.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 07:28:04 PM
How the fuck did Glengarry NOT get an Adapted Screenplay nod? How the fuck???

Would it even count?  The movie was already a play. It wasn't adapted from a non-script source.

Oh, never thought of that. You're probably right.

Edit: No, Chicago got a nod for Best Adapted Screenplay. Fuck that.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 07:48:24 PM
How the fuck did Glengarry NOT get an Adapted Screenplay nod? How the fuck???

Would it even count?  The movie was already a play. It wasn't adapted from a non-script source.

Oh, never thought of that. You're probably right.

Edit: No, Chicago got a nod for Best Adapted Screenplay. Fuck that.

David Mamet wrote the play and the screenplay.  Maybe it didn't require many rewrites, and maybe Chicago, which was not originally authored and adapted by the same writer, did.  These things are all very arbitrary.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:25:01 PM
Halle Berry's token Oscar for HOO HA I'M BLACK AND I SHOWED MY FLOPPY TITS

THEY WERE NOT FLOPPY
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 24, 2008, 08:25:36 PM
Chicago won best picture once upon a time.....

That pretty much sums it up there.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:26:35 PM
Yea, I'm starting to think "things the Academy got right" would be a better thread. :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 08:29:48 PM
Always remember: Gump beat Pulp Fiction.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:31:28 PM
And Shawshank too.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 24, 2008, 08:31:42 PM
Always remember: Gump beat Pulp Fiction.

Uh, yeah, I remember QUITE CLEARLY.

I know of at least three people who will argue with me about this. They don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Pulp Fiction is a VASTLY better movie in EVERY FUCKING ASPECT.

Dumbass stupid Academy.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 08:33:37 PM
Gump is one of my favorite movies ever, but Pulp Fiction is one of the best movies I've seen. Shawshank is better than both in my estimate
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 24, 2008, 08:34:42 PM
And Shawshank too.

Amen
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 24, 2008, 08:36:04 PM
Films the Academy got RIGHT

From the list of nominees, last year (The Departed) was probably the best of the five. Still, seriously, Children of Men.

Schindler's List
The Silence of the Lambs
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Fresh Prince on February 24, 2008, 08:37:20 PM
Shawshank is just as overtly sentimental and melodramatic than Forrest Gump. Though it has no Tom Hanks so it's marginally better.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:38:05 PM
hahahahaha holy shit Babe was a Best Picture Nominee
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 08:38:44 PM
Originally I felt The Departed was the best film of 2007 but after watching Children of Men multiple times I changed my mind. I also need to see Pan's again

But damn 2007 was full of great movies that could have won.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 08:40:25 PM
Films the Academy got RIGHT

From the list of nominees, last year (The Departed) was probably the best of the five. Still, seriously, Children of Men.

Schindler's List
The Silence of the Lambs

1. Shawshank is overrated.  Good not great, emotionally manipulative, unchallenging.  The only reason it stands out to anyone is because they used to fucking show it on TV all the time, so a movie that everyone can agree is good appears greater than it actually is due to consensus.

2.  JFK should have won over Silence of the Lambs.  Silence of the Lambs is a solid suspense movie with some great acting.  Once you get past the kinda brilliant acting, there's no substance.

3. And to PD, The Departed is fucking boring and stupid.  It was a pity Oscar.  It's not even a good movie.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 08:41:39 PM
wrong on all three points!
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:42:37 PM
Here's my point about Shawshank: even if the Academy didn't want to give the award to something like Pulp Fiction, they had a movie in a similar "emotionally manipulative" mold to Forrest Gump - but no doubt better - to pick.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:43:03 PM
hahahahaha holy shit Babe was a Best Picture Nominee

Babe is one of the best kid's movies ever.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:43:32 PM
hahahahaha holy shit Babe was a Best Picture Nominee

Babe is one of the best kid's movies ever.

hahahaha BABE
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 08:45:03 PM
Here's my point about Shawshank: even if the Academy didn't want to give the award to something like Pulp Fiction, they had a movie in a similar "emotionally manipulative" mold to Forrest Gump - but no doubt better - to pick.

True, true.  I think the fucking oldster academy members got misty-eyed at Gump's soundtrack.  That was pornographic sex to old people back then, in the pre-viagra days when impotent people had long forgotten what sex was actually like.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 08:45:42 PM
hahahahaha holy shit Babe was a Best Picture Nominee

Babe is one of the best kid's movies ever.
QFT

Holy shit this is the first time Cajole has been DEAD WRONG about something


Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 24, 2008, 08:46:17 PM
I never really got the Gump love...that movie sucked and obviously sucked forever
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:46:28 PM
I've never even seen Babe. It just seems so out of place. :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:46:45 PM
hahahahaha holy shit Babe was a Best Picture Nominee

Babe is one of the best kid's movies ever.

hahahaha BABE

That'll do, Juice. That'll do.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 08:48:33 PM
My eyes still water up at the end of Babe  :-\

Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:49:17 PM
mmmm bacon
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 08:49:59 PM
Babe and Matilda were probably the best children's movies of the 90s
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:50:46 PM
Yeah, Babe's got such a great message for kids.  Great movie, deserved the nomination, IMO.

Also, Cajole, the movie does not shy away from showing the fact that pigs are generally considered just that - food.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:51:13 PM
Never seen that either. Children's movies  :-X

Except for TMNT 1 and 2. :rock
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 08:51:17 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments

That's because you are easily manipulated.  Basically, if you were a woman, and your husband beat you all the time, you'd probably think he still loved you.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 24, 2008, 08:52:17 PM
I'm also glad to see TVC drop some maaaad science when it comes to Shawshank. what a piece of shit movie.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 24, 2008, 08:52:21 PM
Films the Academy got RIGHT

From the list of nominees, last year (The Departed) was probably the best of the five. Still, seriously, Children of Men.

Schindler's List
The Silence of the Lambs


3. And to PD, The Departed is fucking boring and stupid.  It was a pity Oscar.  It's not even a good movie.


Eh, I disagree. Go watch the Condemned and tell me it sucks.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:53:30 PM
Never seen that either. Children's movies  :-X

Except for TMNT 1 and 2. :rock

Secret of the Ooze was a transformative experience for me as a young man.

And :lol at Patel's shitty taste.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 08:53:49 PM
Films the Academy got RIGHT

From the list of nominees, last year (The Departed) was probably the best of the five. Still, seriously, Children of Men.

Schindler's List
The Silence of the Lambs


3. And to PD, The Departed is fucking boring and stupid.  It was a pity Oscar.  It's not even a good movie.


Eh, I disagree. Go watch the Condemned and tell me it sucks.

What is The Condemned?

The Departed was a pity oscar for past sins against Marty.  This isn't even debatable.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Fresh Prince on February 24, 2008, 08:54:01 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments
Because the guy is a living saint and martyr, meant to get all our sympathy. I mean he gets falsely accused of murdering his wife (and says he deserved it WTF), raped and gets his free card shot but nevertheless help fellow inmates, helps prison guards and isn't fucking bitter about it. So by the time he steals all that money we think that's okay he deserves it.  

Also Babe > Shawshank Redemption >>>> Forrest Gump.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 24, 2008, 08:54:39 PM
Also Babe > Shawshank Redemption >>>> Forrest Gump.

Truth bombs exploding all over this thread.

But Spy Kids > Babe. ;)
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:54:45 PM
The Shawshank Redemption is a very good movie, especially when viewed as a homage to classic prison movies like The Birdman of Alcatraz.  It moved me.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:54:56 PM
Never seen that either. Children's movies  :-X

Except for TMNT 1 and 2. :rock

Secret of the Ooze was a transformative experience for me as a young man.

And :lol at Patel's shitty taste.

I just watched it for a half-hour or so the other day on TV. :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 24, 2008, 08:55:21 PM
Frank Darabont is one of the worst, most overrated screenwriters ever.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:55:29 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments
Because the guy is a living saint and martyr, meant to get all our sympathy. I mean he gets falsely accused of murdering his wife (and says he deserved it WTF), raped and gets his free card shot but nevertheless help fellow inmates, helps prison guards and isn't fucking bitter about it. So by the time he steals all that money we think that's okay he deserves it.  

Also Babe > Shawshank Redemption >>>> Forrest Gump.

Also, he doesn't steal any money.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mupepe on February 24, 2008, 08:56:15 PM
Pan's is the best movie of '07 hands fucking down
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 08:56:50 PM
Pan's came out in '06, tho.  But yeah, it makes me really want to see The Spirit of the Beehive, which was one of its biggest inspirations.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:57:06 PM
No, Mupepe.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 08:57:36 PM
Pan's is the best movie of '07 hands fucking down

2006, and you're probably right.  It's close between that and Children of Men, but Pan's has stayed with me more.  Amazing amazing movie.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:58:00 PM
 :-\
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 08:58:09 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments

That's because you are easily manipulated.  Basically, if you were a woman, and your husband beat you all the time, you'd probably think he still loved you.

Explain it to me omg

Art elicits emotion. Music can create a sad atmosphere which people (you know, humans with emotions and stuff) relate to, and even cry over. Film can remind a person of past experiences, their family, etc. What's wrong with that?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 24, 2008, 08:58:41 PM
Pan's Labyrinth is emotionally manipulative lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 09:00:12 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments

That's because you are easily manipulated.  Basically, if you were a woman, and your husband beat you all the time, you'd probably think he still loved you.

Explain it to me omg

Art elicits emotion. Music can create a sad atmosphere which people (you know, humans with emotions and stuff) relate to, and even cry over. Film can remind a person of past experiences, their family, etc. What's wrong with that?

Willco says you should never cry over a piece of entertainment because it's all FAKE.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 09:00:24 PM
Pan's Labyrinth is emotionally manipulative lol

omg a little girl getting treated bad i feel so bad for her WTF MANIPULATION PLZ GOD MAKE ME FORGET I'M HUMAN
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Fresh Prince on February 24, 2008, 09:00:59 PM
Art elicits emotion. Music can create a sad atmosphere which people (you know, humans with emotions and stuff) relate to, and even cry over. Film can remind a person of past experiences, their family, etc. What's wrong with that?
Read my post.

Also, he doesn't steal any money.
Doesn't he go to the bank and get the laundered money to live on the beach?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 09:01:26 PM
OMG AERITH LOOK BEHIND YOU SEPHIROTH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 :'(
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 09:01:56 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments

That's because you are easily manipulated.  Basically, if you were a woman, and your husband beat you all the time, you'd probably think he still loved you.

Explain it to me omg

Art elicits emotion. Music can create a sad atmosphere which people (you know, humans with emotions and stuff) relate to, and even cry over. Film can remind a person of past experiences, their family, etc. What's wrong with that?

Willco says you should never cry over a piece of entertainment because it's all FAKE.

When I was a kid I cried after reading Tuck Everlasting and The Great Gilly Hopkins. I cried after Forest Gump. Art elicits emotion, and the exact emotion differs from person to person. In part that's why it's art.

Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 09:02:18 PM
Doesn't he go to the bank and get the laundered money to live on the beach?

I thought he just escaped and got a job somewhere in Mexico.  Shows how much attention I was paying to the movie, I guess.  It's been a while. :/
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 24, 2008, 09:03:07 PM
Films the Academy got RIGHT

From the list of nominees, last year (The Departed) was probably the best of the five. Still, seriously, Children of Men.

Schindler's List
The Silence of the Lambs


3. And to PD, The Departed is fucking boring and stupid.  It was a pity Oscar.  It's not even a good movie.


Eh, I disagree. Go watch the Condemned and tell me it sucks.

What is The Condemned?

The Departed was a pity oscar for past sins against Marty.  This isn't even debatable.

It starts Stone Cole Steve Austin.

Seriously, go watch a truly bad film and then tell me that the Departed is a bad film. It isn't. It had good acting from an ensemble cast and it was interesting. Plus, it had superior editing from Schoonmauer again. Plus, there was some decent dialogue from the screenplay that won its Academy Award as well.

And honestly, are you going to tell me Little Miss Sunshine, The Queen, or Letters from Iwo Jima deserved it any more?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 09:04:03 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments

That's because you are easily manipulated.  Basically, if you were a woman, and your husband beat you all the time, you'd probably think he still loved you.

Explain it to me omg

Art elicits emotion. Music can create a sad atmosphere which people (you know, humans with emotions and stuff) relate to, and even cry over. Film can remind a person of past experiences, their family, etc. What's wrong with that?

Emotional manipulation in a film is, to be blunt, when a narrative takes the easy way of getting an emotional response rather than relying on narrative strength.  Due to living in a structured society, humans have all sorts of buttons that can be easily pressed in order to get an easily predictable response.  But I'm not your fucking google, so read up on the psychological concept.  It relatively easily maps directly onto film.  Emotional manipulation is, say, teh equivalent of having canned laughter in a television show.  It's there so the stupid people at home can tell what a joke is.  Swelling strings in movies are pretty much cinematic canned laughter, for example.

And don't talk to me about art, rube.  You're the one championing paper thin movies for the sole reason that they make you misty eyed.  You're no aesthete, you are a robot.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 24, 2008, 09:04:44 PM
Pan's Labyrinth is emotionally manipulative lol

omg a little girl getting treated bad i feel so bad for her WTF MANIPULATION PLZ GOD MAKE ME FORGET I'M HUMAN

Pan's Labyrinth made me tear up, but Forrest Gump? Sorry.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 24, 2008, 09:05:49 PM
Letters from Iwo Jima was...I dunno, it had some nice moments, but I cringed when I realized what they were doing "if you visited America and/or speak English = good Japanese officer", "if you didn't = baaaaad Japanese officer."

PD, did you ever watch Mr. Holland's Opus?  THAT is emotionally manipulative.  And I Am Sam, whoo boy.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 24, 2008, 09:06:35 PM
yeah, the condemned is pretty awful

but you do get to hear stone cold tell some chick he loves her, and that is a filmed slice of unintentional hilarity for the ages
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mupepe on February 24, 2008, 09:07:23 PM
Pan's is the best movie of '07 hands fucking down

2006, and you're probably right.  It's close between that and Children of Men, but Pan's has stayed with me more.  Amazing amazing movie.
Yeah, but I saw it in 07 :)  lolz

But yeah, fucking brilliant :bow :bow :bow
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 09:07:33 PM
Films the Academy got RIGHT

From the list of nominees, last year (The Departed) was probably the best of the five. Still, seriously, Children of Men.

Schindler's List
The Silence of the Lambs


3. And to PD, The Departed is fucking boring and stupid.  It was a pity Oscar.  It's not even a good movie.


Eh, I disagree. Go watch the Condemned and tell me it sucks.

What is The Condemned?

The Departed was a pity oscar for past sins against Marty.  This isn't even debatable.
Seriously, go watch a truly bad film and then tell me that the Departed is a bad film.

It's competently made, and I'm glad I wached it, but people only think it's great because it won awards.  It's a WEAK MARTIN SCORSESE MOVIE.  He makes them kinda frequently.  And why did it win Awards?  because the Academy has wanted to give him a pity Oscar FOR YEARS.  Remember Gangs of New York?  EVERYONE agrees that one sucked ass, but it got the big nominations.  He almost got a pity Oscar for that mess.

Quote
It had good acting from an ensemble cast and it was interesting.

I found the acting tepid, especially Matt Damon.  Jack and Leo were, as usual, excellent, but Damon was really weak.  He couldn't even keep his accent straight.

Quote
And honestly, are you going to tell me Little Miss Sunshine, The Queen, or Letters from Iwo Jima deserved it any more?

Pan's and Children of Men should have been nominated.  It's criminal that they weren't.

And I remember that Steve Austin movie now.  I kinda want to see that on account of it looking awesomely terrible.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 24, 2008, 09:07:54 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments

That's because you are easily manipulated.  Basically, if you were a woman, and your husband beat you all the time, you'd probably think he still loved you.

Explain it to me omg

Art elicits emotion. Music can create a sad atmosphere which people (you know, humans with emotions and stuff) relate to, and even cry over. Film can remind a person of past experiences, their family, etc. What's wrong with that?

Emotional manipulation in a film is, to be blunt, when a narrative takes the easy way of getting an emotional response rather than relying on narrative strength.  Due to living in a structured society, humans have all sorts of buttons that can be easily pressed in order to get an easily predictable response.  But I'm not your fucking google, so read up on the psychological concept.  It relatively easily maps directly onto film.  Emotional manipulation is, say, teh equivalent of having canned laughter in a television show.  It's there so the stupid people at home can tell what a joke is.  Swelling strings in movies are pretty much cinematic canned laughter, for example.

And don't talk to me about art, rube.  You're the one championing paper thin movies for the sole reason that they make you misty eyed.  You're no aesthete, you are a robot.

I was making a valid point about art, not questioning your understanding of it. I know you're an art cigarillo, don't crucify me son

But you never addressed my point. If a piece of art makes you cry does that mean it's emotionally manipulative? And considering art appreciation is subjective how can you question other people's honest reactions to said emotion?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 24, 2008, 09:09:00 PM
i understand juno is this year's little miss sunshine
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 24, 2008, 09:10:07 PM
Someone explain to me why Shawshank is emotionally manipulative. I've never understood or bought those arguments

That's because you are easily manipulated.  Basically, if you were a woman, and your husband beat you all the time, you'd probably think he still loved you.

Explain it to me omg

Art elicits emotion. Music can create a sad atmosphere which people (you know, humans with emotions and stuff) relate to, and even cry over. Film can remind a person of past experiences, their family, etc. What's wrong with that?

Emotional manipulation in a film is, to be blunt, when a narrative takes the easy way of getting an emotional response rather than relying on narrative strength.  Due to living in a structured society, humans have all sorts of buttons that can be easily pressed in order to get an easily predictable response.  But I'm not your fucking google, so read up on the psychological concept.  It relatively easily maps directly onto film.  Emotional manipulation is, say, teh equivalent of having canned laughter in a television show.  It's there so the stupid people at home can tell what a joke is.  Swelling strings in movies are pretty much cinematic canned laughter, for example.

And don't talk to me about art, rube.  You're the one championing paper thin movies for the sole reason that they make you misty eyed.  You're no aesthete, you are a robot.

I was making a valid point about art, not questioning your understanding of it. I know you're an art cigarillo, don't crucify me son

But you never addressed my point. If a piece of art makes you cry does that mean it's emotionally manipulative?

First sentence:

Quote
Emotional manipulation in a film is, to be blunt, when a narrative takes the easy way of getting an emotional response rather than relying on narrative strength.

Narratives getting an emotional response is fine.  Taking the EASY WAY to get that response is what's reprehensible.

Quote
And considering art appreciation is subjective how can you question other people's honest reactions to said emotion?

Well, if you honestly find clearly emotionally manipulative things to be truly emotional, you're probably either a simple person or you haven't experienced a whole lot of fiction.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 24, 2008, 09:10:57 PM


And I remember that Steve Austin movie now.  I kinda want to see that on account of it looking awesomely terrible.

seriously, don't bother

i love stupid action movies as much as the next guy, but it's truly terrible and not in a fun way

plus they try to cram a goddamned message down your throat

it's the only blu ray i have sold on ebay, i couldn't even keep it for the eye candy
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 12:00:27 AM
I'm sorry, but I haven't heard one substantive argument here. Art appreciation is subjective, and what you may find simple and "reprehensible" is quite moving and relevant to others. A person who saw the destructive effects of rampant drug use, or survived Vietnam might look at Forrest Gump completely different than you, and I don't think their life experience or your art knowledge makes either opinion more valid: it's opinion.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 25, 2008, 12:01:27 AM
you can have wrong opinions, sorry

forrest gump is a good movie = wrong opinion
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 12:03:51 AM
Forrest Gump sucked, but ::) at the elitism...
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 25, 2008, 12:04:28 AM
if being elitist just means I'm not the dumbest motherfucker in the room, then hell yes I'm elitist
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 12:04:53 AM
I'm not talking about whether it's a good movie or not; that's a subjective decision. I'm talking about whether it's emotion is manipulative and cheap, and that anyone who falls for it is "dumb".
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 12:06:36 AM
if being elitist just means I'm not the dumbest motherfucker in the room, then hell yes I'm elitist

But you are the dumbest motherfucker in the room.  ???
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 12:07:17 AM
I'm sorry, but I haven't heard one substantive argument here. Art appreciation is subjective, and what you may find simple and "reprehensible" is quite moving and relevant to others. A person who saw the destructive effects of rampant drug use, or survived Vietnam might look at Forrest Gump completely different than you, and I don't think their life experience or your art knowledge makes either opinion more valid: it's opinion.

Well, I can't help that you're inexperienced.  Maybe you should watch more good movies that have valid emotional payoffs, rather than terrible Hollywood movies featuring magical distinguished mentally-challenged fellows and nostalgia-by-numbers soundtracks composed of licensed music that has a readymade emotion already attached.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 12:10:39 AM
He's young, home-schooled, and sheltered.  Give him a fucking break.  I don't think he even has cable.

He recently saw Raging Bull and his opinion of it was on point.  He's learning.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 12:20:25 AM
I'm sorry, but I haven't heard one substantive argument here. Art appreciation is subjective, and what you may find simple and "reprehensible" is quite moving and relevant to others. A person who saw the destructive effects of rampant drug use, or survived Vietnam might look at Forrest Gump completely different than you, and I don't think their life experience or your art knowledge makes either opinion more valid: it's opinion.

Well, I can't help that you're inexperienced.  Maybe you should watch more good movies that have valid emotional payoffs, rather than terrible Hollywood movies featuring magical distinguished mentally-challenged fellows and nostalgia-by-numbers soundtracks composed of licensed music that has a readymade emotion already attached.

What was wrong with the music? Do you know any people who grew up in the 60s and 70s? They'll tell you those songs were their soundtrack: why not pay homage to that in a film that goes through those years? I respect your opinion, I just respectfully disagree

Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Smooth Groove on February 25, 2008, 12:22:20 AM
PD, I respect your views on the "films" that we discuss through PM. 
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 12:23:36 AM
PD, I respect your views on the "films" that we discuss through PM. 

We only deal with classics amirite  :o
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 12:24:20 AM
I think TVC's criticism of the soundtrack is valid.  It's emotional shorthand.  Instead of getting across emotions through original imagery or storytelling, Zemeckis just puts in a greatest hits of the '50s-'70s and lets that do the bulk of the work for him.

Compare that to something like Once Upon a Time in America, which also uses an old song in its soundtrack (The Beatles 'Yesterday'), but gives it thematic and emotional resonance within the picture itself, not just relying on the pre-existing emotions the song reverberates inside you.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 12:28:06 AM
I'm sorry, but I haven't heard one substantive argument here. Art appreciation is subjective, and what you may find simple and "reprehensible" is quite moving and relevant to others. A person who saw the destructive effects of rampant drug use, or survived Vietnam might look at Forrest Gump completely different than you, and I don't think their life experience or your art knowledge makes either opinion more valid: it's opinion.

Well, I can't help that you're inexperienced.  Maybe you should watch more good movies that have valid emotional payoffs, rather than terrible Hollywood movies featuring magical distinguished mentally-challenged fellows and nostalgia-by-numbers soundtracks composed of licensed music that has a readymade emotion already attached.

What was wrong with the music? Do you know any people who grew up in the 60s and 70s? They'll tell you those songs were their soundtrack: why not pay homage to that in a film that goes through those years? I respect your opinion, I just respectfully disagree

I'm biased against movies that are too reliant on pop songs, especially in the case of films like Forest Gump, which make the soundtrack such a prominent part of the movie and its promotion.  Sure, pop music has its place in movies, but relying on it like a crutch is weak.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 12:31:54 AM
To me it just helped set tone and atmosphere. Like in the scene where Jenny is about to commit suicide and you've got the hectic Free Bird guitar solo contributing to this sense of chaos  :-\

Jenny  :'(
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: bagofeyes on February 25, 2008, 12:33:08 AM
 :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 12:34:30 AM
To me it just helped set tone and atmosphere. Like in the scene where Jenny is about to commit suicide and you've got the hectic Free Bird guitar solo contributing to this sense of chaos  :-\

Jenny  :'(

Do you think one of the Black Panthers gave her AIDS?  I think it was implied.

I mostly hated Forrest Gump because it was conservative propaganda.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 12:36:20 AM
To me it just helped set tone and atmosphere. Like in the scene where Jenny is about to commit suicide and you've got the hectic Free Bird guitar solo contributing to this sense of chaos  :-\

Jenny  :'(

So you like the music for basically the same reason I hate it.

To me it just helped set tone and atmosphere. Like in the scene where Jenny is about to commit suicide and you've got the hectic Free Bird guitar solo contributing to this sense of chaos  :-\

Jenny  :'(
I mostly hated Forrest Gump because it was conservative propaganda.

It's so hollow and contrived.  When I first saw it when I was 11 or 12, before the awards, even my dumbass young self realized how manufactured the sentiment was.  Cinematic beer goggles. . .much like even a woman could look attractive after a few drinks, with the right kind of sheen, people will even think a terrible movie is good.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 25, 2008, 12:36:55 AM
Freebird :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 12:51:18 AM
To me it just helped set tone and atmosphere. Like in the scene where Jenny is about to commit suicide and you've got the hectic Free Bird guitar solo contributing to this sense of chaos  :-\

Jenny  :'(

Do you think one of the Black Panthers gave her AIDS?  I think it was implied.

I mostly hated Forrest Gump because it was conservative propaganda.

Nah she could have gotten it from any multitude of people/needles imo. Wasn't she fucking the Berkeley guy at that time though
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 12:53:01 AM
She was so slutty!  At least Forrest hit it while it was somewhat fresh.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 25, 2008, 01:05:02 AM
I liked Forrest Gump okay at the time, don't see how in the blue hell you got conservative propaganda out of it
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: brawndolicious on February 25, 2008, 01:07:28 AM
I'm not talking about whether it's a good movie or not; that's a subjective decision. I'm talking about whether it's emotion is manipulative and cheap, and that anyone who falls for it is "dumb".
You're dumb because you miss the obvious political slant.  I mean think about it.  I don't want to say you're a total idiot, but the 20th century is being told through the eyes of a...distinguished mentally-challenged fellow.

Would you like the movie as much if it was about a grizzled vietnam veteran who hated life?  Do you think it would have gotten as many awards?

Eel, it showed the person always doing what he was told (forrest) suffering while Jenny, who was rebellious, died from AIDS.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 01:08:29 AM
That's a simplistic explanation to say the least
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 25, 2008, 01:09:19 AM
Uh, he never did what he was told, except for the vietnam parts, and that was a parody of military life

who told him to run across country for a year
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 01:20:18 AM
I liked Forrest Gump okay at the time, don't see how in the blue hell you got conservative propaganda out of it

You missed what a huge piece of political propaganda it was?  Forrest Gump representative of the best values of the '50s (conservative dreamland) and Jenny representative of the values of the '60s (librrrrul nightmare)?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 25, 2008, 01:25:15 AM
uh, he was a stumblebum who just happened to be in the right places at the right times, it was clearly a hamhanded satire

i think you're projecting something into this sappy movie that wasn't there, and giving them way too much credit

as if tom hanks would even be in a conservative propaganda movie, i mean come on dude
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 01:30:46 AM
I guess you missed the subtext.  Don't feel too bad, it seems like Tom Hanks did too.  Seriously, read up on it - when it was released, it was used (quite effectively) by the Republican party as propaganda, and the original writer was rather upset about it.  Not surprising, though, as Rob Zemeckis is VERY conservative, so it was undoubtedly part of his agenda.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on February 25, 2008, 01:31:30 AM
haha, okay then
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: brawndolicious on February 25, 2008, 01:34:53 AM
I guess you missed the subtext.  Don't feel too bad, it seems like Tom Hanks did too.
no, I don't think Tom would agree to play the lead role in a big hollywood movie that was a satire of a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow.  the problem with the movie is that nearly no one can relate to the events in forrest's life.  cause those sorts of things would only happen to forrest.  if you're trying to see things through the eyes of a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow in a movie that's about real historical events in the last 50 years then...yeah, think about that.

I may not be able to convince you about the political slant, but it's obvious that it crosses the line about what you can make a movie about.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 01:35:53 AM
haha, okay then

I am quite serious.  Then, when Pleasantville came out, there was an argument among academics about whether liberals should use THAT movie as librrrrul propaganda, referencing the success Republicans had had with Forrest Gump.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 04:58:39 AM
I'm sorry I don't cry while reading or watching fiction.  It's lame.  Just because something is powerful, doesn't mean you have to cry - it means you're emo.  It's all fake!

spoiler (click to show/hide)
... like Schindler's List!
[close]

Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 06:23:42 AM
CrystalGemini needs to post here and tell us all how Willco cried in Transformers when Jazz died.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 06:29:32 AM
We actually both laughed about how the black Transformer was the only to die. :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 06:50:54 AM
Hewing to genre conventions is one of Michael Bay's strong points as a filmmaker.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: EvilBoris on February 25, 2008, 07:38:07 AM
 Can't wait to hear Michael Bay's comments about the VFX upset. I mean, you know he will have something to say.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 07:50:44 AM
He sometimes makes angry posts on his website's forum (like when Transformers got announced as an HD-DVD exclusive), so we might get to hear Bay pissed off and uncensored. :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: BlueTsunami on February 25, 2008, 08:21:04 AM
The Hindu dude for Short Circuit 2 should have got an Oscar
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Eric P on February 25, 2008, 08:57:46 AM
i hate forrest gump so much
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: DJ_Tet on February 25, 2008, 10:21:45 AM
Can't wait to hear Michael Bay's comments about the VFX upset. I mean, you know he will have something to say.

Golden Compass over fighting robots?  Get the fuck out of here, seriously.

I never in my wildest imagination thought about real life giant robots fighting on screen in warzones, fucked up designs be damned.  It looked amazing and was truly a feat combining a LOT of real footage blended in seamlessly with GIANT FUCKING ROBOTS!

But yeah, Golden Compass  :lol
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Ichirou on February 25, 2008, 10:24:59 AM
The polar bears were cool.

I'm glad Transformers didn't win.  The designs looked like something vomited out by a trash compactor.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: DJ_Tet on February 25, 2008, 12:43:12 PM
Yeah but they've been doing digital polar bears for 15 freaking years since the old Coke commercials.

Giant fighting robots blowing up highways and buildings, sorry.  Designs be damned.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 01:23:00 PM
Can't wait to hear Michael Bay's comments about the VFX upset. I mean, you know he will have something to say.

Golden Compass over fighting robots?  Get the fuck out of here, seriously.

I never in my wildest imagination thought about real life giant robots fighting on screen in warzones, fucked up designs be damned.  It looked amazing and was truly a feat combining a LOT of real footage blended in seamlessly with GIANT FUCKING ROBOTS!

But yeah, Golden Compass  :lol

Transformers looked like ass.  I've said this from day 1.  Whether they were technically more proficient or not is beside the point when the effects look unpleasing.  The terrible faux-organic-inspired design made the robots look like messes when they were grappling together on the screen.  As I've said before, it was difficult to tell where one robot ended and another began in that final sequence.  I think there's only one truly impressive sequence in the movie (the desert fight with the military peeps.  Not the opening one; the one after).

Transformers does nothing well.  It might actually be Bay's worst movie.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 25, 2008, 01:32:29 PM
yeah, Transformers fucking sucked even from a VFX standpoint
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Human Snorenado on February 25, 2008, 01:43:50 PM
This thread is awesome. 

Pee Dee, how about this:  any argument made from ignorance is invalid.  Because you're ignorant, even if you stumble onto a correct argument (and you haven't in this thread) it doesn't mean that you're smart or correct- it just means that you're an intellectual parrot.

On topic, the biggest Oscar failure this decade will probably be Children of Men not winning cinematography.  Or not even being NOMINATED for best picture.  SHAME ON YOU, ACADEMY.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: AdmiralViscen on February 25, 2008, 01:46:42 PM
So was Golden Compass undeserving or what? I didn't see any of the nominated movies.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 02:10:43 PM
Transformers was bad from a VFX standpoint? You guys are insane.  What you're complaining about is art direction, TVC - not special effects.  Regardless of how you hate the designs, the visual effects were fantastic.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 02:26:50 PM
Transformers was bad from a VFX standpoint? You guys are insane.  What you're complaining about is art direction, TVC - not special effects.  Regardless of how you hate the designs, the visual effects were fantastic.

The aesthetic appeal of the special effects has to come into the award at some point.  Who cares if the special effects are technically great when they still look terrible?

So was Golden Compass undeserving or what? I didn't see any of the nominated movies.

I probably wouldn't have even nominated it--not because it was bad, but because it didn't really leave an impression at all.  Like Narnia and Potter and LOTR, it was a fantasy movie with janky CG, aka par for the course.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 25, 2008, 02:33:04 PM
This thread is awesome. 

Pee Dee, how about this:  any argument made from ignorance is invalid.  Because you're ignorant, even if you stumble onto a correct argument (and you haven't in this thread) it doesn't mean that you're smart or correct- it just means that you're an intellectual parrot.

On topic, the biggest Oscar failure this decade will probably be Children of Men not winning cinematography.  Or not even being NOMINATED for best picture.  SHAME ON YOU, ACADEMY.

Truth, although Pan's Labyrinth has some damn good cinematography

I also though Pan's Labyrinth should have won Best Foreign Language Film, but then I saw the Lives of Others, and I understand their choice.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 25, 2008, 02:36:11 PM
Transformers was bad from a VFX standpoint? You guys are insane.  What you're complaining about is art direction, TVC - not special effects.  Regardless of how you hate the designs, the visual effects were fantastic.

Let's just put it this way: if Transformers would have won ANY Academy Awards, it would have been an injustice of epic proportions.

Transformers is probably one of the worst films this decade, only being topped by shit like Soul Plane (this decade, right?) and Van Helsing. It doesn't deserve shit from the top awards ceremony in the land. If it would have won, it would have been a travesty of epic proportions.

AND the visuals weren't that great. They were very pretty, I will give you that, but that was totally destroyed by the horrible editing the film got. The audience had no time to appreciate any of the robots in action sequences because of the quick-bang editing the film was exposed to. So, fuck Transformers inside and out. It deserves NOTHING AT ALL EVER.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 25, 2008, 02:40:13 PM
Transformers was bad from a VFX standpoint? You guys are insane.  What you're complaining about is art direction, TVC - not special effects.  Regardless of how you hate the designs, the visual effects were fantastic.

The actual direction was as bad as the art direction. The robot designs were terrible and the movie was confusing and unpleasant to the eye. How can special effects be "good" if they fail at communicating what's going on the movie? Good SFX enhance the reality of a movie. Transformers's, on the other hand, destroyed that reality. And my reality.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mandark on February 25, 2008, 02:41:13 PM
Nobody's mentioned L.A. Confidential yet?  Come on!

Also, Memento not winning screenplay.

Yeah, I like neo-noirs.  Ya wanna fight about it?
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: DJ_Tet on February 25, 2008, 02:43:33 PM
Can't wait to hear Michael Bay's comments about the VFX upset. I mean, you know he will have something to say.

Golden Compass over fighting robots?  Get the fuck out of here, seriously.

I never in my wildest imagination thought about real life giant robots fighting on screen in warzones, fucked up designs be damned.  It looked amazing and was truly a feat combining a LOT of real footage blended in seamlessly with GIANT FUCKING ROBOTS!

But yeah, Golden Compass  :lol

Transformers looked like ass.  I've said this from day 1.  Whether they were technically more proficient or not is beside the point when the effects look unpleasing.  The terrible faux-organic-inspired design made the robots look like messes when they were grappling together on the screen.  As I've said before, it was difficult to tell where one robot ended and another began in that final sequence.  I think there's only one truly impressive sequence in the movie (the desert fight with the military peeps.  Not the opening one; the one after).

Transformers does nothing well.  It might actually be Bay's worst movie.

Unfortunately, most of what you write is true.  It took me several viewings before I could recognize the subtlety and nuances in the designs.  They were bad, but there were details to be had.  It was just confusing with the fast cuts and different shots during the fights, it shouldn't take several viewings to understand what you just saw.

That said, the amount of planning and destruction that took place in real life, combined with there looking like there are giant real life mech's fighting and flying around deserves merit and recognition.

I think it's unlike any other special effects movie I've ever seen in that regard.  It got robbed by cgi polar bears.




BUT, it's not a travesty on the lines of say, Children of Men not even being nominated for Best Picture.  In the overall scheme of things Transformers was a small snub.  I just think it was a lot more of a technical marvel than it's given credit for, and I haven't even seen another Michael Bay movie to be honest. 
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 25, 2008, 02:47:12 PM
on the subject of failures

I was reminded last night when looking through recent Oscar picks that Crash won Best Picture (!) in 2006

it's only two years on and that choice looks way more distinguished mentally-challenged than it was even then
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 03:07:42 PM
Patel, I just hear you complaining about Transformers as a film.  Visual effects can only be good if they're conveyed through good direction?  Please.  You might as well retroactively take half the visual effects Oscars away from their respective winners on that ridiculous theory.

There are a lot of bad films out there with great visual effects.  The quality of the film has no bearing on the quality of the visual effects.  You can fault Transformers for a lot of things, but visual effects?  C'mon.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on February 25, 2008, 03:08:52 PM
I stand by my original point--the purpose of VFX is to enhance the movie. Transformer's detracted. Period, end of discussion.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 03:10:57 PM
No, they really didn't.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 03:24:26 PM
And thus Willco's defense of Transformer's visual effects turns into "NO U R!"
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 03:28:17 PM
I'm going to guess that you do since you're a film buff...but why are all other forms of emotional response ok except for shedding a tear?  To say that you don't cry during movies/books shouldn't also mean that whomever does is an emo-cigarillo.

Good jokes are good jokes.  Exciting adventures are fun to read.  But to make a person cry requires that they legitimately feel loss, which is something I don't when reading or watching fiction.  Have I cried watching real footage?  Sure.  But fiction?  Nope.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Bloodwake on February 25, 2008, 03:30:23 PM
on the subject of failures

I was reminded last night when looking through recent Oscar picks that Crash won Best Picture (!) in 2006

it's only two years on and that choice looks way more distinguished mentally-challenged than it was even then

When I heard it won, I wasn't too sad, because I thought all the films were basically on the same level (except for Munich, which was extremely boring and unlike anything I've seen from Spielberg).

However, at the time I hadn't seen Good Night and Good Luck or Capote. Honestly, those two films were superior to Crash, but not by much. Brokeback was good, but not great. Honestly, the entire year was a toss-up for me, so I can't really say that any of the films were any better than each other enough to where it actually mattered. No Country AND There Will Be Blood stomped the shit out of that year's entire selection. Hell, THE DEPARTED was better than everything in 2006 that was nominated for Best Picture.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mandark on February 25, 2008, 03:30:36 PM
I always get a little misty when I see the Marseillaise scene in Casablanca.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 03:31:47 PM
And thus Willco's defense of Transformer's visual effects turns into "NO U R!"

There's nothing to defend.  The VFX were Oscar-nominated and on that basis alone, you know they're pretty damn good.  I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate with someone that goes, "No, I'm right - end of discussion!"  But, of course you're not going to call Patel on that, because you're both in the same warped boat.  It's not a terribly good movie.  I don't own it.  I've seen it once.  And I think it's fun.  I can fault almost everything from production, including art direction, but the visual effects and the integration of CG into the environments was nothing short of an achievement.

They look like big robots fighting.  Now, you can argue that look like big, ugly robots fighting, but - hey! - that's fine.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 03:33:30 PM
I just think it would be ironic if a visually terrible movie won anything that indicated it had the best visuals in any regard.  I don't care how many hours a render farm spent toiling on a big shiny turd.  If it doesn't look good, it doesn't make sense that it should be getting any best visuals awards.

With that said, I just looked and none of the nominees had particularly compelling visual effects, so I guess in the end it's a wash.
OOPS
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 03:39:23 PM
"One anything" has to be your greatest Internet type of all-time!

Whether or not the robot designs are ugly is completely subjective (although I do agree that they were confusing at times in the movie), but the actual moving parts, interaction with the setting, integration with other effects (like explosions, jets, etc.) and the animation were are incredibly well done.  It was a landmark achievement for ILM.

The Academy hasn't really awarded the most deserving film for this particular category within the past several years.  Past winners include King Kong, Spider-Man 2 and all the Lord of the Rings films (over one or two probably more deserving flicks).  You could make a case that Superman Returns got robbed, but I think the job on Davy Jones in Dead Man's Chest is reason enough that it deservedly won over Bryan Singer's underwhelming spandex flick.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mandark on February 25, 2008, 03:41:00 PM
I could see Transformers getting an award for the engineering side of the SFX.  The first discussion I had about the movie was with someone who works with 3D animation, and his take was "Those guys did really good work, and they must be pissed at how the shitty cinematography and editing butchered their work."

Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 03:44:15 PM

The Academy hasn't really awarded the most deserving film for this particular category within the past several years.  Past winners include King Kong, Spider-Man 2 and all the Lord of the Rings films (over one or two probably more deserving flicks).  You could make a case that Superman Returns got robbed, but I think the job on Davy Jones in Dead Man's Chest is reason enough that it deservedly won over Bryan Singer's underwhelming spandex flick.

I think the wording on the description of the award probably needs to be tinkered with.  Aside from Davy Jones, I don't really think any of that is particularly compelling.  I find the extremely organic CG of EVILBOREAN BEST MOVIE EVER The Aviator much more impressive than fakey CG fests.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 03:47:20 PM
The Aviator wasn't even nominated.  I'm talking about within nominees.  I agree with you that The Aviator should have been nominated, but then Children of Men should have also been nominated.  So should several other flicks over the past few years.

I really dug the visual effects on Batman Begins.  The model work is excellent and some of the CG use is incredible.  The flying shots look fake, but there were CG shots I didn't even know were CG shots until recently (when Batman jumps down the stairwell through the bats and lands and starts walking - it's all fake!).  But that film wasn't even nominated.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: TVC15 on February 25, 2008, 03:49:09 PM
The Aviator wasn't even nominated.  I'm talking about within nominees.  I agree with you that The Aviator should have been nominated, but then Children of Men should have also been nominated.  So should several other flicks over the past few years.

Which is why I think the award should be rethought.  Or just renamed into Best CGI Orgasm.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mupepe on February 25, 2008, 03:59:13 PM
I always get a little misty when I see the Marseillaise scene in Casablanca.
:bow :bow :bow :bow
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: DJ_Tet on February 25, 2008, 04:09:50 PM
It's one thing to say Transformers doesn't deserve to win, but it lost to cgi polar bears.

I mean, that was awesome, in 1991.



Anyway, yes the robots look too similar to each other.  Point taken.  Where is my 'Go Bots' movie then?  What other movie has accomplished what Transformers accomplished with fighting robots?  King Kong fighting dinosaurs, sure, but that's not transforming robots.

The technical detail that went into some of those shots is mind-boggling.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: AdmiralViscen on February 25, 2008, 04:15:20 PM
The Aviator wasn't even nominated.  I'm talking about within nominees.  I agree with you that The Aviator should have been nominated, but then Children of Men should have also been nominated.  So should several other flicks over the past few years.

I really dug the visual effects on Batman Begins.  The model work is excellent and some of the CG use is incredible.  The flying shots look fake, but there were CG shots I didn't even know were CG shots until recently (when Batman jumps down the stairwell through the bats and lands and starts walking - it's all fake!).  But that film wasn't even nominated.

What?! Holy shit.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: DJ_Tet on February 25, 2008, 04:17:28 PM
Batman Begins impressed me for the very opposite reasons actually, so many of the stunts were real!

Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 04:41:18 PM
What?! Holy shit.

Yeah, that revelation was mind bottling to me.  I was cruising through the special features on the Deluxe version CrystalGemini has, and they have a whole segment on how it's a digital double for Bale/Batman.  Now, I obviously thought they have bats composited into the scene, but the fact that even Bale/Batman was fake was pretty awesome.  Including the part where he starts to walk towards the asylum corridor.  The animation usually gives that type of stuff away.  There are a few instances where the computer imagery is that good.  The bit where Crane sees Batman through his own toxin is also some great CG.

And I agree with DJ_Tet, I dug Begins for the very practical stunts and model work.  It really gives the film a gritty feel, especially since they use so many minatures.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: DJ_Tet on February 25, 2008, 04:49:00 PM
Yeah the features on the HD version of Batman Begins had a lot of mindblowing stuff about how they set up different shots.  Things I assumed were real were cg and lots of things I assumed were cg were actually real.

I had no idea there was a cg batman until I watched one of the featurettes on it.  They claimed they sat Nolan down with a lot of others and showed a real Batman and a digital Batman.  They said Nolan could tell the difference but most couldn't until they knew what they were looking for.  Much more impressive than say, Yoda.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 04:52:30 PM
Yeah, it's definitely one of the few instances I have been fooled by computer imagery.  Nolan is such a hardliner about realistic looking imagery that he made it possible.  The sequences that look computer generated (and not horribly, like on Spider-Man or anything) are things that he pretty much could not do in real-life.  Like having Bale glide over Gotham.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 25, 2008, 04:54:16 PM
Speaking of actual Oscar failures, since Clooney did not get any awards for Michael Clayton - I'm going to watch it today.
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 25, 2008, 05:45:54 PM
Eh the effects of Transformers were good. The art direction sucked. Like Perfect Dark
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: brawndolicious on February 25, 2008, 10:22:22 PM
on the subject of failures

I was reminded last night when looking through recent Oscar picks that Crash won Best Picture (!) in 2006

it's only two years on and that choice looks way more distinguished mentally-challenged than it was even then

When I heard it won, I wasn't too sad, because I thought all the films were basically on the same level (except for Munich, which was extremely boring and unlike anything I've seen from Spielberg).

However, at the time I hadn't seen Good Night and Good Luck or Capote. Honestly, those two films were superior to Crash, but not by much. Brokeback was good, but not great. Honestly, the entire year was a toss-up for me, so I can't really say that any of the films were any better than each other enough to where it actually mattered. No Country AND There Will Be Blood stomped the shit out of that year's entire selection. Hell, THE DEPARTED was better than everything in 2006 that was nominated for Best Picture.
Crash was shit.  Don't be stupid.  Munich was a little boring but I have a hell of a lot more respect for Spielberg showing he has balls.  I never saw brokeback but I would still choose that over crash just out of principle.  I mean, crash was so cheap in how it tried to pry emotions out of you and every line was an example of how not to write a scene about racial tension.

I'm sorry, but I respectfully shit on your opinion. :maf
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Mupepe on February 25, 2008, 10:23:10 PM
Crash isn't too bad... just cheesy lolz
Title: Re: Biggest Oscar Failures?
Post by: Human Snorenado on February 26, 2008, 02:18:30 AM
Crash isn't too bad... just cheesy lolz

It's certainly not best picture caliber.  They should stop letting all the young, dumb actors vote for best picture if that's the shit we're gonna get stuck with.