THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Mandark on March 28, 2008, 04:57:55 AM

Title: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mandark on March 28, 2008, 04:57:55 AM
I can't even figure out whose side we're on, anymore, or whether we want to prevent or provoke a civil war.

Either the administration is hoping a miracle breakthrough will happen so they can take credit for it and salvage their legacy, or we were only meant to stay for two weeks but someone lost tennin's cell phone.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on March 28, 2008, 05:01:38 AM
Because we're not invading Iran til this fall?
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Van Cruncheon on March 28, 2008, 05:16:48 AM
as the neoconservative set has articulated, democracy happens when we just believe in it hard enough. sooner or later, iraq democracy will spring into being, fully-formed!
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Rman on March 28, 2008, 05:20:06 AM
US occupations after and during wars have been historically very long.  I think those who set foreign policy in Congress and in the Bush administration fear the nation will implode if we leave too early.  Isn't infrastructure in Iraq still pretty poor as well?  

My concern is our objectives.  We seem to be meandering there without any sort of metric or objectives for, pardon the pun, mission accomplished.    
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mandark on March 28, 2008, 05:20:20 AM
We're trying to stymie Iran's influence, but we're propping up a government coalition dominated by two former exile parties with very strong Iranian ties, who invited Ahmadinejad for a big public visit recently.  Besides supporting the government, we're giving money and weapons to Sunni militias who are (somewhat justifiably) paranoid about Iranian influence, and who are basically insurgents.

The president now has government troops (loyal to God knows who) going after "Shia militias" in Basrah, but really only the Sadrist militias.  Which essentially breaks a recently renewed ceasefire that had been considered a big achievement of the current strategy.

I literally don't know who the US wants to win at this point.  I'd try to glean some info from the White House press briefings, but for about five years, it's been a variation on "Whatever's going on right now, we wanted it to happen and it's awesome."

I think the "first as history, second as farce" phenomenon is getting compressed.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on March 28, 2008, 05:43:50 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure our strategy at this point is to arm all the militias until one eventually comes out on top and drives out the rest, then declare victory.  We've already had some success with Better Reconciliation Through Ethnic Cleansing
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on March 28, 2008, 06:32:29 AM
yeah, but realistically, such a person would've either been aligned with Iran, a radical Islamist fanatic, and/or historically unwilling to do business with the US
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Eric P on March 28, 2008, 09:13:44 AM
as the neoconservative set has articulated, democracy happens when we just believe in it hard enough. sooner or later, iraq democracy will spring into being, fully-formed!

have any of you other commuting liberals been listening to NPR's justice in iraq series?  it sounds like an awesome place to set a book series
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: BlueTsunami on March 28, 2008, 09:45:18 AM
Democracy is a sentient being
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mondain on March 28, 2008, 09:58:00 AM
(http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/20/oil_barrels_baghdad_main.jpg)
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Cormacaroni on March 28, 2008, 10:01:24 AM
so mondain, how much oil do you think the US could have bought on the open market with what they've spent so far on the Iraq war?
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Eric P on March 28, 2008, 10:05:49 AM
it's not about the present

it's about the future

the future of the iraqi people

the future of hope in iraq and the middle east
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: AdmiralViscen on March 28, 2008, 10:24:22 AM
Yea, I don't see how the oil argument holds water anymore.

:lol @ IRA though
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on March 28, 2008, 10:37:42 AM
(http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/20/oil_barrels_baghdad_main.jpg)

An army of Teenage Ninja Turtles would turn the tide of the war in our favor.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on March 28, 2008, 11:11:18 AM
Cause you guys didnt vote for the only candidate that actually believes this war was a mistake.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
(http://signoraggio.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/ron_paul_photo_4.jpg)
[close]

Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Eric P on March 28, 2008, 11:16:50 AM
Cause you guys didnt vote for the only candidate that actually believes this war was a mistake.





reductio ad dumdum
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Tauntaun on March 28, 2008, 11:22:45 AM
Democracy is a sentient being

(http://xs223.xs.to/xs223/08051/johnny5avatar254.png)

Johnny 5 ALIVE!
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on March 28, 2008, 11:23:11 AM
Cause you guys didnt vote for the only candidate that actually believes this war was a mistake.

Obama doesn't believe the war was a mistake? Kucinich didn't believe the war was a mistake?
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: hyp on March 28, 2008, 01:24:57 PM
Quote
(http://blogs.abcnews.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/07/20/oil_barrels_baghdad_main.jpg)

it's hard not to see a barrel these days and want to shoot it with a fucking rocket launcher.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: lordmaji on March 28, 2008, 02:29:32 PM
Because the Iraqis aren't free yet. DUH!  ::)
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Van Cruncheon on March 28, 2008, 02:51:23 PM
:heartbeat li'l kucinich :heartbeat

wish he was viable :gloomy
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Tauntaun on March 28, 2008, 03:06:28 PM
:heartbeat li'l kucinich :heartbeat

wish he was viable :gloomy

I'd vote for him over anyone but Paul in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Bloodwake on March 28, 2008, 03:21:04 PM
It's not a hard answer.

Bush and his administration are fucking distinguished mentally-challenged. That's why we are there. The reason we aren't leaving is because it makes Republicans look bad.

Basically the Iraq Civil War is going to start anyways. The US staying there supporting one group is only making the situation worse. I listened to a speaker yesterday that proposed that the US leaving might actually open up diplomatic negotiations, considering the US backing one group is just making things worse, seeing as everyone fucking hates America over there.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: TVC15 on March 28, 2008, 03:32:42 PM
as the neoconservative set has articulated, democracy happens when we just believe in it hard enough. sooner or later, iraq democracy will spring into being, fully-formed!

have any of you other commuting liberals been listening to NPR's justice in iraq series?  it sounds like an awesome place to set a book series

Can I go there and be a cowboy, basically?  A MURDEROUS cowboy?
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Eric P on March 28, 2008, 03:39:19 PM
as the neoconservative set has articulated, democracy happens when we just believe in it hard enough. sooner or later, iraq democracy will spring into being, fully-formed!

have any of you other commuting liberals been listening to NPR's justice in iraq series?  it sounds like an awesome place to set a book series

Can I go there and be a cowboy, basically?  A MURDEROUS cowboy?

no

it's about the justice system there.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89123960

pretty fuck awesome if dispiriting

Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: TVC15 on March 28, 2008, 03:45:49 PM
I was hoping it would be a good place for a budding psychopath to get his training wheels off :(
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: T234 on March 28, 2008, 03:54:32 PM
I was hoping it would be a good place for a budding psychopath to get his training wheels off :(
You're not psychotic enough.

Come down to WHIRLIN STERLIN and we'll talk.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Eric P on March 28, 2008, 03:58:10 PM
I was hoping it would be a good place for a budding psychopath to get his training wheels off :(

blackwater wants you

they have the toughest fucking it people ever
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: TVC15 on March 28, 2008, 04:33:36 PM
I was hoping it would be a good place for a budding psychopath to get his training wheels off :(
You're not psychotic enough.

Come down to WHIRLIN STERLIN and we'll talk.

Is there a test I can take?  Just give me a scalpel and a bucket of live puppies.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: APF on March 28, 2008, 04:48:10 PM
The strategy is not to bug out, hand it off to Obama, and blame him for the disastrous results.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: HotByCold on March 28, 2008, 04:52:26 PM
They're still occupying Irag because we don't want the chinese to take over.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mandark on March 28, 2008, 07:54:19 PM
If I was a soldier being feted for vanquishing tyranny and bringing about the halcyon days of the middle east I would want to remain in the country as well.

It's pretty unfair that the troops are fighting a war in a country where they have to stay away from the local women.  An ex-marine I know said his unit had a jeep or something that they'd cover with a tarp and call the "whack shack".

The whole thing seems a lot less sexy than Vietnam.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Fresh Prince on March 28, 2008, 08:04:58 PM
It's pride, they still think they can win this thing. They also know if they leave they've fucked up the region a little bit more.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Joe Molotov on March 28, 2008, 09:30:19 PM
Because the situation over these is all FUBAR, and we're too embarrassed to leave now because we can't help but feel like, in some small way, we may have been partly to blame.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: drozmight on March 28, 2008, 10:28:08 PM
Because there is a shit load of money to be made there.

They'll make way more money there than they'll ever spend blowing everything and everyone up.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on March 29, 2008, 03:09:48 AM
I just checked out Little Green Footballs and it looks like they barely ever even mention Iraq any more, unless it's to show how funny-looking San Francisco war protesters can be.  It's all Eurabia and Barack Hussein Osama stories.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on March 29, 2008, 03:20:21 AM
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/sami_ramadani/2008/03/a_great_leap_backward.html
Quote
A trade union leader in Basra reminded me this week that March was the month in 1991 when Saddam launched his infamous campaign to crush an uprising, which began in Basra and spread to most of the country. This week's attacks, he said, were much more ferocious that those 17 years ago.

sheesh.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mandark on March 29, 2008, 03:23:10 AM
I just checked out Little Green Footballs and it looks like they barely ever even mention Iraq any more, unless it's to show how funny-looking San Francisco war protesters can be.  It's all Eurabia and Barack Hussein Osama stories.

Masochist.

I was actually tempted to check on them when Harvard decided to set aside some female-only gym time to accommodate Muslims students, but didn't have the stomach for it.



Oh, and the US is using airstrikes in Basra.  Fantastic!  That always works wonders for urban counterinsurgencies.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on March 29, 2008, 03:24:15 AM
I think the administration is backed into a corner.

Bush and Co. knows they fucked up.  Which is why Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bremer, etc. are all gone.  A lot of the architects for the Iraq invasion are no longer with the administration.  Important secretaries, deputy secretaries, and assistant secretaries retiring from any war is an indirect statement that says, "We fucked up."

At the same time, they are still uncertain as to what would happen if they pull out.  The Iraqi government sucks and if the US were to pull out, nothing would change.  This thing has been a  long time coming.  There was stability in Iraq because if you got out of line, Saddam would brutally oppress you.  Democracy will not work in Iraq because there are three distinct groups that have a reason to be pissed.  Sunnis want their power back, Shiites want to be in control, and Kurds want to get to have a say instead of being gassed.

They also have obligations domestically.  A lot of funds and businesses have ties in Iraq and if the US leaves, that is gone.  Republican donors will drop to an all time low, causing huge damage to the party and eliminating many GOP strongholds into Democrat strongholds.  They don't want to be known as the dudes that tucked tail and then ran.  GOP and the far right would have a fit and look foolish.  Dozens of government positions would go to the Democrats.  As much as I would like to see that happen, Bush is a bonafide machine Republican where it is all about doing favors for one another.

There is also the idea that the Democrats win and drop it all on their lap and then blame all the results on them in 2012 to get back into the White House.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on March 29, 2008, 03:25:51 AM
Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Iraqis, because inside every towel head there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on March 29, 2008, 05:47:27 AM
Quote
I was actually tempted to check on them when Harvard decided to set aside some female-only gym time to accommodate Muslims students, but didn't have the stomach for it.

Yeah, they had some posts on that.  I filed them under "Eurabia", close enough.

I remember cracking jokes with some cute hijab'd girls in my math and CS classes.  We got on pretty well.  I guess I should've instead sternly lectured them on their duty to properly assimilate into the society that's done so much for them, and/or valiantly offered to deliver them from their hellish life of cultural oppression, but back in that pre-9/11 world I lacked the moral clarity.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mandark on March 29, 2008, 05:55:40 AM
Is there a subject you can't turn into a discussion of your missed romantic opportunities?
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: APF on March 29, 2008, 03:03:04 PM
In fairness, all of these religiously and culturally mandated uniforms are pretty revolting and anachronistic.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: brawndolicious on March 29, 2008, 07:18:42 PM
Yea, I don't see how the oil argument holds water anymore.

:lol @ IRA though
Western oil companies keep an extremely large fraction of the profits in pumping Iraq's oil compared to pumping another country's oil.  Americans don't save on gas, Bush started this war as a favor for his oil buddies.
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on March 29, 2008, 07:45:43 PM
what is Eurabia
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on March 29, 2008, 08:46:32 PM
The new name for Europe (and some nominal parts of the US) now that the fecund daughters of al-Qaedastan have got it under sharia law.   Don't play coy, you were just there last month. 
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on March 29, 2008, 09:10:58 PM
I just read up on Eurabia at Wikipedia, it's totally awesome
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mandark on April 04, 2008, 06:14:19 PM
Some of the usual war boosters are apparently trying to sell the Basra operation as a victory for the Iraqi government (Sadr asked for a cease fire, what a looooooooser!).

When everyone is in full CYA mode (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/world/middleeast/03basra.html?_r=1&ref=washington&oref=slogin)[/u] explaining how they weren't consulted or objected or just had nothing to do with it, though, I have a hard time believing that.  "Failure is an orphan" isn't just a good aphorism, it's a useful heuristic!

Sigh...
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on April 04, 2008, 07:27:53 PM
john emerson at Seeing the Forest:

Quote
It's at times like this I wish that the U.S. had a two-party system. For example, just hypothetically: if we were in the middle of a Presidential campaign right now, one of the candidates from the opposing party would probably be saying something about the emptiness and falseness of what Our President has been saying about Iraq, and about the incompetence and destructiveness of Cheney's most recent intervention in Iraqi policy-making.

But just as there are no magic ponies in Iraq, there are none in the U.S. either.

 :-\
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on April 04, 2008, 07:35:08 PM
Except Ron Paul has been saying all of that.  :maf
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: bud on April 04, 2008, 07:37:49 PM
why do you keep doing that
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Barry Egan on April 04, 2008, 07:40:06 PM
The dream is over, dude. 
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on April 04, 2008, 07:42:27 PM
what the fuck is wrong with you, you goddamned fucktard
Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on April 04, 2008, 08:41:57 PM
why do you keep doing that

Because people keep posting shit like this.

Quote
. For example, just hypothetically: if we were in the middle of a Presidential campaign right now, one of the candidates from the opposing party would probably be saying something about the emptiness and falseness of what Our President has been saying about Iraq, and about the incompetence and destructiveness of Cheney's most recent intervention in Iraqi policy-making.

Title: Re: Someone remind me, why is the US still occupying Iraq?
Post by: Mandark on April 05, 2008, 04:59:08 AM
I like Emerson as much as I do any cranky old lefty who'll tweak the Kos wing of the Democratic party* (see: Riley, Doghouse and Sawicky, Max) but I think he's reaching a bit there.

Maliki had plenty of reason to push the Basra operation himself: local elections are coming up this year and the Sadrist machinery provides a big popular base for a political rival.  It's in his interest to hit the Mehdi Army and its associated pseudo-government operations, whether he's trying to build the Iraqi Army in a force loyal to him, get jobs for the Badr brigade, or just generally kneecap Sadr.

I don't think a physical visit is really dispositive in the digital age.  Maliki has a phone and Cheney presumably has his number.  There are enough people in the executive branch who don't like Cheney that there should be some leaks if he gets up to anything particularly egregious.

Emerson's second point about Kagan is right, but it's not new.  If supporting the war in general can't cost someone their seat at the pundit table, being specifically wrong about something war-related five years into it won't do the trick.  At least Joe Klein is taking shots at the Kagans (http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/04/too_many_kagans_too_little_kno.html), which is just a couple steps removed from David Broder doing it.

As for the Democratic candidates, they say they want the US out and at least Obama has said the US shouldn't train Iraqi troops if they're just ethnic or partisan militias with official cover.  I'm not sure what he wants from them that he isn't getting.



*Though I recognize that the Kos wing is doing a lot of the actual grunt work in putting Democrats in office, which is generally a good thing.  There's just a tendency among them to lose sight of why politics are important, and to make convenient criticisms of the GOP (this war was badly planned) over philosophical ones (almost all war is horrible).