THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: FancyFeast on May 18, 2008, 02:26:45 AM

Title: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: FancyFeast on May 18, 2008, 02:26:45 AM
Quote
http://www.gamershell.com/news_50386.html

The soundtrack will be released two weeks earlier
We now have the complete track list of the Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots soundtrack, which will be available in Japan on May 28th, priced just 3045YEN (30USD). Press 'read more' to check the list and if you're interested, you can pre-order here. In related news, we have found out that Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots will need 4.6GB of free space on your PS3's hdd, in order to install the required files.

This is a real turn off, I would never get a PS3 at this point.  I am however looking at the Wii lately, it seems to have enough games to make it worthy of a purchase(bloom Blox pushed me over the edge).
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 18, 2008, 03:02:19 AM
Year of the PS3 continues!
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 03:05:39 AM
lol!
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 18, 2008, 03:24:38 AM
If you don't have a 360, you hate gaming.

I have the 360's big brother; I love gaming!

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:shh It's a PC.
[close]
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: FancyFeast on May 18, 2008, 03:40:54 AM
If you don't have a 360, you hate gaming.

I have the 360's big brother; I love gaming!

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:shh It's a PC.
[close]

That joke worked last generation, not this time.

services > hardware  :bow :bow2
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 18, 2008, 03:53:00 AM
That joke worked last generation, not this time.
services > hardware  :bow :bow2

You mean the RRoD "replace your dead console with a refurbished console just as likely to die" service?  :bow :bow2

I hardly have the time to play games anymore, so yes - Live kicks serious booty, but I wouldn't ever make use of it, unfortunately. The last time I multiplayed was about 1.5 months ago. All things being equal - especially the variety of games - i'm happy with my PC.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 04:04:17 AM
... and? Good grief, you console jockeys have really been bent in strange ways, haven't you?
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: FancyFeast on May 18, 2008, 05:26:37 AM
:bow Power of Blu-Ray :bow2

:bow Year of PS3 :bow2
:-*
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Jansen on May 18, 2008, 06:10:36 AM
this is getting ridiculous. i'll be really pissed if it's not 720p native.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 06:33:50 AM
this is getting ridiculous. i'll be really pissed if it's not 720p native.
it isn't.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 18, 2008, 06:39:24 AM
MGO + MGS4 = 1024x768
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Jansen on May 18, 2008, 06:40:10 AM
i know mgo isn't. when was mgs4 confirmed not to be?
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 06:43:49 AM
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161422&postcount=1058
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1161435&postcount=1059
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 06:50:54 AM
RSX happened.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Jansen on May 18, 2008, 06:56:18 AM
haha, oh wow. so is it 665p and 30fps? good god i hope mgs4 isn't using temporal aa too! man this game has been downgraded since it was revealed.

still can't wait to play it though.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 18, 2008, 06:57:12 AM
I remember a famous stard at NeoFAQ, have said MGS4 is 1080p 60fps and it's absolutely impossible on the 360. he is basing his post on Kojima/Kutaragi bullshit :rofl
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 06:59:48 AM
haha, oh wow. so is it 665p and 30fps? good god i hope mgs4 isn't using temporal aa too! man this game has been downgraded since it was revealed.

still can't wait to play it though.
TTP said it's "smooth 30fps", ask him just in case my memory is making shit up.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: The Sceneman on May 18, 2008, 07:17:21 AM
Considering Im probably getting a ps3 for this game only I dont really give a shit about a hard drive Im not going to use
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 18, 2008, 10:09:24 AM
hey, CoD4 looks and runs better than MGS4 at the same resolution, even in the PS3.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Powerslave on May 18, 2008, 10:17:13 AM
Hetal Gear Solid
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 18, 2008, 10:21:45 AM
Say why it happened. Say that the hardware is just too weak to handle it.
He did. Kojima did an interview where he talked about the limitations of the actual PS3 versus the devkits or hardware specs he was given at first.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 10:27:28 AM
Say why it happened. Say that the hardware is just too weak to handle it.
He did. Kojima did an interview where he talked about the limitations of the actual PS3 versus the devkits or hardware specs he was given at first.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kojima+disappointed&btnG=Google+Search
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 01:00:12 PM
The PS3 and X360 aren't PCs and neither do they have the same base storage capacity. And as an ADD gamer, i don't want to have a shortened list of games that i can play (yes, i know PC etc... but again, scale is WAY different and this is a console!)
 

What's the difference between console and PC, really? Both Microsoft and Sony have gone straight for offering budget gaming PCs (complete with giving developers the luxury of releasing unfinished games knowing that it can be finished with a few patches distributed across the network), so unless you're a Wiiner, don't gripe too loud about having to deal with PC traditions. So you have to delete a few game caches, which would be exactly how it'd work on a PC. Big deal. If you have a 60GB machine, then you should have ample storage for game caches. That is, unless you filled the HDD with music, photos or video, but then you wouldn't have done that since you don't want the whole PC in a box situation anyway.

But then this whole situation is mostly annoying because it's so god damned pathetic; the majority of people "concerned" with this are not only bent console jockeys (I want simplicity, waah waah), but shitsifting Xtards at that. Of course, the arguments would be reversed if the situation was reversed. It's getting to be too fucking predictable, and that includes my own involvement.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 01:05:18 PM
Cracked had an article on console gaming that made a lot of sense. Why is it that, even today, console developers have a hard time making games for consoles? It's not like PC development where you're in the dark about what the consumer has, so you have to include a wide range of hardware configurations, and even if you include a ton, you can never test out every single driver configuration and such. With a console, you know the exact limitations of the hardware, what can be done, what can't be and what's there to work with, and for some reason devs still can't wrap their head around it.

Quote
We're ashamed to even have to include this. This is like having to ask McDonald's to cook the burger before they serve it to you, or having to remind your dentist not to videotape himself slapping you in the face with his penis while you're under. It's the sort of thing you'd feel ridiculous saying.

http://www.cracked.com/article_16196_7-commandments-all-video-games-should-obey.html

It's a really good read.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 18, 2008, 01:08:46 PM
I have a 60 gig, and still have tons of space.  Then again, I only own 3 PS3 games right now.  If this is the trend, I guess I'll pop for a 250 gig drive and install it.  They're not that expensive.  If it makes the game run better, so be it.  I sort of wish MS would give the option of an HDD install on some of the 360 games.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 18, 2008, 01:13:12 PM
yeah, that's a good cracked article

cracked the website is so much better than cracked the magazine ever was
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 01:14:19 PM
yeah, that's a good cracked article

cracked the website is so much better than cracked the magazine ever was

Yeah, it really is great. I check it like every day for new stuff. Their lists rock.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 18, 2008, 01:27:36 PM
(http://i32.tinypic.com/28s98o4.jpg)

(http://i27.tinypic.com/290ssk0.jpg)

(http://i31.tinypic.com/n18g9u.jpg)

(http://i32.tinypic.com/fm1hlz.jpg)

(http://i26.tinypic.com/29mso6a.jpg)

This is the game that needed 50GB?  Is there like a dozen movies on the disc as well 'cause from what I've seen the game itself shouldn't need more than 3GB with texture work like that.

So if the graphics suck and the gameplay is still as boring as ever, what's driving people's anticipation for this?  The story?  :lol

smh
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 01:39:43 PM
(http://i27.tinypic.com/qx9mia.jpg)
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 18, 2008, 01:41:07 PM
I see what you did there :rofl
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Powerslave on May 18, 2008, 01:41:13 PM
MGS4 sucks.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 01:43:13 PM
Idiots
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Sho Nuff on May 18, 2008, 01:46:54 PM
HOW DO DEY CRAM ALL DAT GRAHAM
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Pharmacy on May 18, 2008, 01:54:31 PM
only own a ps3

own a decent pc

buying mgs4

still dont care what anyone says bout ps3
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Sho Nuff on May 18, 2008, 02:05:32 PM
(http://i32.tinypic.com/28s98o4.jpg)

(http://i27.tinypic.com/290ssk0.jpg)

(http://i31.tinypic.com/n18g9u.jpg)

(http://i32.tinypic.com/fm1hlz.jpg)

(http://i26.tinypic.com/29mso6a.jpg)


Professor...are...are those Xenos graphics?
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Pharmacy on May 18, 2008, 02:19:32 PM
If you could show one of those screens next to a Crysis screen to some uninformed gamer he could easily mistake Crysis as some sort of next-gen game. Something out of this world and unattainable.

It's quite embarrassing that soon-to-be one year old PC game looks MILES ahead of MGS4.

its a one year old tech demo that cant be fully utilised on any hardware actually
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Crushed on May 18, 2008, 02:26:01 PM
If you could show one of those screens next to a Crysis screen to some uninformed gamer he could easily mistake Crysis as some sort of next-gen game. Something out of this world and unattainable.

It's quite embarrassing that soon-to-be one year old PC game looks MILES ahead of MGS4.

its a one year old tech demo that cant be fully utilised on any hardware actually
Did you just call Crysis a tech demo.


My God you're even stupider than I thought.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 02:26:57 PM
If Fable 2 fails to impress, I'm selling my 360 and all its games and quitting new games forever. PS2 forever. This entire gen has been disappointment after disappointment.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Pharmacy on May 18, 2008, 02:28:25 PM
If you could show one of those screens next to a Crysis screen to some uninformed gamer he could easily mistake Crysis as some sort of next-gen game. Something out of this world and unattainable.

It's quite embarrassing that soon-to-be one year old PC game looks MILES ahead of MGS4.

its a one year old tech demo that cant be fully utilised on any hardware actually
Did you just call Crysis a tech demo.


My God you're even stupider than I thought.

at the end of the day, it is just a tech demo for the cryengine2

im not saying i dont like it, i really do love the game, its awesome
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Crushed on May 18, 2008, 02:45:57 PM
at the end of the day

SHUT UP
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Ninja on May 18, 2008, 03:01:20 PM
MGS4 may not have crysis' graphics but it will still be 20 times more imaginative and interesting. The graphics in those screens don't look the best but the beta looked and ran great, so I'm pretty confident that the final game will look geat. That said, it's the directon and visual design that sets MGS apart and that looks as good as ever in MGS4. I don't care how many pixels it has.

As for having to install, yeah it will be a pain in the future, but a 60GB has room to keep whatever MP games you want ready to go and a few SP games too, so with a little bit of thought, you're not likely to have to uninstall and reinstall games too often.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 03:20:42 PM
As for having to install, yeah it will be a pain in the future, but a 60GB has room to keep whatever MP games you want ready to go and a few SP games too, so with a little bit of thought, you're not likely to have to uninstall and reinstall games too often.

Really it makes no sense that you're defending this shit. The game was tailor-fucking-made for PS3, and KojiPro was one of the first devs to get the fucking devkit. They've been working on the game for over four years now, and millions upon millions of dollars have been poured into the project. Yet still, after ALL THAT, not only does the game not really look that good, but you have to install part of it on to your system before being allowed to play.

Standardizing HDDs and online connectivity has effectively ruined console video games. We're now receiving the same level of untested, incomplete bullshit to be fixed later in patches rather than getting the full game experience the minute we fucking pay for it.

I think it's absurd that console gaming is now going backwards, no longer offering one of the key reasons people even prefer console gaming over PC gaming. Let's go down the checklist:

On a PC, you have to install a game, vidcons are just plug'n'play! = False
On a PC, you have to patch games, console games come 100% complete! = False
On a PC, you never know if the game really works on your rig till you try it, on consoles, that ain't a problem! = False

And please, all you ignorant, dick-headed shit mouths, don't even bother bringing up PC gaming in terms of sales. Why is it that when you mention sales in relation to a console game, in no time at all an army of fuck-faces reign down on your ballsack, but when you mention sales in relation to PC games, that same army rallies behind you? How can that kind of bullshit fly for PC games, but not console games, which are becoming just as bad as PC games in the 90s?

Jim Morrison had it right, people are strange.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 03:32:40 PM
Yet still, after ALL THAT, not only does the game not really look that good, but you have to install part of it on to your system before being allowed to play.

This is such bullshit though. The only thing it seems to have going against it are some less than excellent textures, but that's an issue with all games on all systems this generation. Of course, few of those can actually match MGS4 in terms of for example character detail, and atmospheric fx. The snow environment, for one, looks absolutely incredible. Giving MGS4 shit for supposedly not looking good enough is such a boneheaded thing to do. And there is nothing wrong with installing games on the system, as long as the benefits are obvious. I'd imagine that few here have actually played the game, so making judgments call on what is or isn't necessary is a prett ridiculous thing to do.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: bud on May 18, 2008, 03:49:34 PM
konami's shit. they always make the game look colorless and flat in the pics; it looks so much better in motion. watch this: http://www.gamersyde.com/news_6367_en.html; the difference is pretty big.

Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: FancyFeast on May 18, 2008, 04:04:42 PM
Fancy Feast: fix your thread title.

People think it is about Hot Shots Golf 4.

Fixed.  Man I have HGS4 on the brain.  I really hope that shitty Live arcade game is worth getting.   No good golf games this generation?   :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 04:04:52 PM
HOW CAN YOU DEFEND SUCH BULLSHIT, sfags. And you AA.

This is not what console gaming should be about. This is not what elevated console gaming to the heights it sits on now. You didn't install, delete or wait 30 minutes on SNES, PSX or PS2.

I don't particularly care for console gaming, and I don't at all mind that PC traditions enter the console space. I've never liked developers releasing unfinished games, knowing that they can patch them later, but you have to take the good with the bad. I enjoyed being able to play UT3 on PS3 with a mouse, something that wouldn't have been possible hadn't the system been designed to emulate a PC. I like that my PS3 functions as a media hub and storage, which is made possible due to the same devices that unfortunately allow developers to rely on patches. The good, with the bad. An install file and time spent installing doesn't bother me as long as the results are obvious, and as such it depends on the game. If I want the stupid simple experience, I turn on the household's stupid console. Unfortunately, it's a piece of shit of a system in every other way except, I suppose, this simplicity.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 04:05:12 PM
Yet still, after ALL THAT, not only does the game not really look that good, but you have to install part of it on to your system before being allowed to play.

This is such bullshit though. The only thing it seems to have going against it are some less than excellent textures, but that's an issue with all games on all systems this generation. Of course, few of those can actually match MGS4 in terms of for example character detail, and atmospheric fx. The snow environment, for one, looks absolutely incredible. Giving MGS4 shit for supposedly not looking good enough is such a boneheaded thing to do. And there is nothing wrong with installing games on the system, as long as the benefits are obvious. I'd imagine that few here have actually played the game, so making judgments call on what is or isn't necessary is a prett ridiculous thing to do.

Are you fucking kidding me? There is no way whatsoever to rationalize having to install four gigabytes, THAT'S 4,000,000,000(billion) BYTES, for a game that comes on a 50GB disc, THAT'S 50,000,000,000(billion) BYTES. MGS4 by NO definition looks BAD, but for the amount of space given, time taken and money used, it should without question look better than what we've come to. Some textures are EXACTLY similar to ones in MGS3, a game that's a good four years old.

Few can match character detail in MGS4? Allow me to scratch the surface:
Gears of War 1 and 2
Halo 3
Fable 2
GTA4 (Yes I fucking went there)
Half Life 2 (also four years old, btw)
Crysis
Assassin's Creed
Mass Effect

And many, many more. I'll admit, MGS4 has some pretty impressive faces, but it's not like you'll be looking at those very often, and everything still uses canned animation. Atmospheric effects? You mean things like water dripping down Samus' visor in Metroid Prime? Snow effects found in the opening of ZOE2? Regardless of how impressive they are to the eye, they take up no space, and no time, but are rather a birth of creativity.

I fucking love the MGS series, it's my favorite video game series, but I liked it because Kojima actually gave a shit. I'm not exactly sure you realize this or not, but MGS4 ISN'T EVEN BEING DIRECTED BY HIDEO KOJIMA. At least, not in the sense he directed MGS1 or 2. Then who's directing it? Shuyo Murata. The same douchebag who made The Twin Snakes. Enjoy your AIDS.

Quote
I don't particularly care for console gaming, and I don't at all mind that PC traditions enter the console space. I've never liked developers releasing unfinished games, knowing that they can patch them later, but you have to take the good with the bad.

No, I don't have to, and neither should you or anybody else. There's no reason console video game developers have to abandon the way console games used to work outside of laziness and greed.

:heartbeat Borys, I got your back
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 04:13:49 PM
Yet still, after ALL THAT, not only does the game not really look that good, but you have to install part of it on to your system before being allowed to play.

This is such bullshit though. The only thing it seems to have going against it are some less than excellent textures, but that's an issue with all games on all systems this generation. Of course, few of those can actually match MGS4 in terms of for example character detail, and atmospheric fx. The snow environment, for one, looks absolutely incredible. Giving MGS4 shit for supposedly not looking good enough is such a boneheaded thing to do. And there is nothing wrong with installing games on the system, as long as the benefits are obvious. I'd imagine that few here have actually played the game, so making judgments call on what is or isn't necessary is a prett ridiculous thing to do.

Are you fucking kidding me? There is no way whatsoever to rationalize having to install four gigabytes, THAT'S 4,000,000,000(billion) BYTES, for a game that comes on a 50GB disc, THAT'S 50,000,000,000(billion) BYTES. MGS4 by NO definition looks BAD, but for the amount of space given, time taken and money used, it should without question look better than what we've come to. Some textures are EXACTLY similar to ones in MGS3, a game that's a good four years old.

Ignoring for a second that you, most likely, don't know how many different environments there are in the game, how much variety is in each environment or how large the environments actually are, you do understand that the space it taken up by quite a few things other than textures, right? The 4GB is a cache file, and unless I've missed any reviews mentioning this, we don't know how that cache benefits the game. But, I'm sure it's more fun to panic about it.

Now, don't fucking say that Halo 3 matches MGS4 in terms of character detail, because it really fucking doesn't. "Going there" is only a good idea when you're right. And you're not.

No, I don't have to, and neither should you or anybody else. There's no reason console video game developers have to abandon the way console games used to work outside of laziness and greed.

:heartbeat Borys, I got your back

Again, you don't know how this cache benefits the game. Until you can actually give some good reason as to why and how it is this useless and "lazy" thing (good grief, dude), perhaps you shouldn't act so determined.

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 04:18:42 PM
I still think the majority of that 50GB will be audio. WIth 50GB for textures... I mean hell that would be like 10 Xbox 1 games. TEN GAMES! I can't name even one PC game that uses 15 GB on disk. What the hell Kojima.

As for Halo 3, lol. The only good looking char was MC. The soldiers... :rofl

Arguing against MGS4 character models seems downright daft, but it's really made comical when you name drop Halo 3.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Ninja on May 18, 2008, 04:22:31 PM

This is not what console gaming should be about. This is not what elevated console gaming to the heights it sits on now. You didn't install, delete or wait 30 minutes on SNES, PSX or PS2.

And this isn't aimed only against PS3. I know for a certain that if this shit flies now, every next-gen console will have such bullshit.

Knowing that when I buy MGS4 it will run on my PS3 is what elevated consoles to where they are. I play PC games and they can be great but it can frustrating to get them working too.  Lack of Hard Drive space is an inconvenience but one that can be remedied. It should be optional, but if any game is big enough to warrant storing some data on the console it'd probably be MGS4. The levels look pretty damn big, so if installing eliminates loading times and keeps the game fluid, it's worth it. But I don't know why HSG or DMC4 need it...ideally sony would mandate that installs should be optional.

I hate the idea of having to install patches to fix buggy console games, that's BS and I've seen way too many games from Ubi and EA in particular get releases riddled with bugs.

Also, Halo 3 or Hl2 competing with MGS4's detail? LOL
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 18, 2008, 04:23:56 PM
Again, you don't know how this cache benefits the game. Until you can actually give some good reason as to why and how it is this useless and "lazy" thing (good grief, dude), perhaps you shouldn't act so determined.
They're clearly not useless but they're also not something to be excited about, at least based on what I've observed.

Most multiplat games that have had installs on PS3 have enjoyed slight load time advantages over the X360 version, at best, and a lot seem to take just as long to load.

PS3 installs have seemed like a bandaid for some sort of load speed deficiency compared to DVD based systems, thus far.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Pharmacy on May 18, 2008, 04:24:12 PM
fucks sake now i wanna sell my ps3 and upgrade my pc

this gen does suck so badly, shoulda just made a HD PS2 with a faster dvd drive so there's no load times

i might just give up on videogaming altogether soon

Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 04:44:49 PM
Ignoring for a second that you, most likely, don't know how many different environments there are in the game, how much variety is in each environment or how large the environments actually are, you do understand that the space it taken up by quite a few things other than textures, right? The 4GB is a cache file, and unless I've missed any reviews mentioning this, we don't know how that cache benefits the game. But, I'm sure it's more fun to panic about it.

I'm not panicking. Just like you, I'm pretty apathetic regarding console games, but when it comes to things like this, I start to wonder what the hell happened exactly. Yes, textures don't take up a lot of space usually, I understand that quite well. I never assumed textures were the main issue regarding storage space, but that the quality of some of the textures stick out like a sore thumb. It doesn't make a ton of sense for MGS4 to look like how it does with how much money was poured into it. I suppose I'll get the last laugh regardless, because the chances are pretty damn slim that MGS4 will draw any profit.

I understand that there are many different environmental effects because you probably visit many different environments. However, you went from simply citing the quality of environmental effects to equating the effects to everything regarding the environment. Dust and fog effects, however complex, don't take up any space, and don't require a cache of hard drive space, but rather lots of RAM.

Sure, the size of the environments and the complexity of each of them are probably pretty impressive and daunting, and I'm sure KojiPro found it easy to make 50GBs run out with complex geometry, and hours upon hours of recorded dialog, which is probably what takes up the most space on the CD.

I think my rage-filled posts masked what I was really getting at. You simply cannot tell me that a developer who knows their exact limitations in hardware, space, time, budget and everything under sun can still produce a game that exceeds these limitations to the point of requiring a novelty. The novelty in question (bulit-in HDD space) isn't too much of a novelty, being that it's included in excess in almost every PS3, but MGS4 using it is sort of like opening the floodgates. Capcom has been using it, but people weren't surprised since Capcom has been sort of funky this gen in terms of quality, but MGS4 is a PS3 exclusive that Sony was more than enthusiastic to fund to the very end, and still the player has to suffer through some distinguished mentally-challenged installation process.

Quote
Now, don't fucking say that Halo 3 or Gears of War matches MGS4 in terms of character detail, because they really fucking don't. Halo 3 least of all, good grief. "Going there" is only a good idea when you're right. And you're not.

Personally, I dislike both Gears of War and Halo 3, but technically, their character models are superior to that of MGS4s. Would you like me to explain? While Halo 3 has some disgusting human character models, the aliens and Master Chief and other Spartans look pretty damn clean, and Gears of War as well. Now, we could go on for hours comparing polygons and complexity and textures and normal-mapping and such, but here's why my opinion is what it is.

Both Halo 3 and Gears of War are on older, inferior hardware, and are located on a disc that's a whopping 8GBs. That's less than one sixth of the size of a BRD. Even less if you consider the cache MGS4 requires. With those limitations, at least Epic and Bungie saw fit to work within them, and produced something that is at least comparable to that of MGS4s. Not better, not exactly equal, but the quality is in the same range.

As far as Half Life 2, I meant strictly the facial expressions, which happen to be nearly if not as impressive as the ones in MGS4.

Quote
Again, you don't know how this cache benefits the game. Until you can actually give some good reason as to why and how it is this useless and "lazy" thing (good grief, dude), perhaps you shouldn't act so determined.

Yes, but you don't know what the cache is used for either, or if it benefits the game at all. At this point, we both could be wrong. I'm not really determined about anything, I'm just irritated that this is what, the fifth game that requires an installation of 4GBs on the PS3. When I had my 60GB, the PSN games I had bought and the HD Trailers I downloaded left me with a little under 18GBs that dropped down to a little under 14GBs when I had to install DMC4.

I suppose simply saying "lazy" would sound absurd, but it sure as hell looks like laziness when games like Bully for the 360 come jam-packed with bugs and glitches because of poor testing.

The reason I'm so sincere towards this topic is without getting the same amount of quality control we used to when it comes to console games, what are we paying a premium for? Because of the popularity of Limited Editions, consumers are paving the way to a future of single video games that cost $100 in the US, and even more in other regions. This kind of premium made sense before, because the game we got for that kind of money was complete and required nothing additional. That's not how it is anymore.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 04:47:36 PM
Again, you don't know how this cache benefits the game. Until you can actually give some good reason as to why and how it is this useless and "lazy" thing (good grief, dude), perhaps you shouldn't act so determined.
They're clearly not useless but they're also not something to be excited about, at least based on what I've observed.

Most multiplat games that have had installs on PS3 have enjoyed slight load time advantages over the X360 version, at best, and a lot seem to take just as long to load.

PS3 installs have seemed like a bandaid for some sort of load speed deficiency compared to DVD based systems, thus far.

This is probably a true, but then that doesn't make it any less of a necessity. Which is what I'm sort of arguing against here, this notion that it's somehow a sign of laziness (didn't we leave this behind in Cube-land?) and an outrage. It's really not big of a deal, and it's ridiculous to say that it's unnecessary. For all we know, MGS4 might fully validate the whole concept of game caching on consoles.

And I still think it's ridiculous that a large portion of those who calls it an outrage are complaining about not having enough space on a 60GB drive, which would require a whole lot of game installs. So I'm guessing they are also using it as media storage system, which would be one of those dastardly PC functionalities right there. Basically, it sounds like people are just griping on autopilot at this point.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: demi on May 18, 2008, 04:47:45 PM
MGS4 may not have crysis' graphics but it will still be 20 times more imaginative and interesting.

You mean mechanical octopuses? Cmon now.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 18, 2008, 05:11:23 PM
this thread sucks

haven't we been around and around with this argument and this game before?  seems like gaf shit to me.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 05:18:11 PM
I'm just sort of sad that I made my last post so thoughtful and nobody's responded to it.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 18, 2008, 05:59:34 PM
how to subscribe to this thread?
*eating installsandwich*
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 06:19:58 PM
holy fuck at Raban, remind me to never piss you off.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: demi on May 18, 2008, 06:32:33 PM
I'm just sort of sad that I made my last post so thoughtful and nobody's responded to it.

tl;dr
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Madrun Badrun on May 18, 2008, 06:34:56 PM
That's over a third of the 360's available space  :'(

spoiler (click to show/hide)
though if it's just to compensate for the slow bluray drive then my dreams may not be shattered. 
[close]

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: cool breeze on May 18, 2008, 06:45:56 PM
I am not defending the installs at all here, but I'm not bothered by them and would rather every game at least have an option for it to install.  It could be because I play a lot of PC games or something, but I don't have much of a problem with having to wait 7-25 or how many minutes to play a game.  If hard drive space really is an issue, you could always buy a cheap hard drive online and install it yourself.  I only keep a few games on my hard drive that I play every once in a while.  Isn't the problem with the slow bluray read speeds? Even if that is the case the developers should still allow you to play with slow loading times and give you the option for an install.  I also don't understand that with some games like Lost Planet, DMC4, and GTA4 that they didn't just put them on DVD which should be faster than bluray since PS2 games have no problems running, right...?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 18, 2008, 06:47:39 PM
optional installs are always welcome, mandatory is no good.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Powerslave on May 18, 2008, 06:50:32 PM
I'm just sort of sad that I made my last post so thoughtful and nobody's responded to it.

This is why I kinda stopped making long posts. I used to make such long posts a couple of years ago, but I noticed it didn't pay off or people didn't respond/read them.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: ferrarimanf355 on May 18, 2008, 07:17:15 PM
I preordered the LE version of this game. At least I have an 80GB PS3...  :-*

spoiler (click to show/hide)
... although these installs shouldn't be needed with teh Bru-ray...
[close]
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 07:22:35 PM
Both Halo 3 and Gears of War are on older, inferior hardware, and are located on a disc that's a whopping 8GBs. That's less than one sixth of the size of a BRD. Even less if you consider the cache MGS4 requires. With those limitations, at least Epic and Bungie saw fit to work within them, and produced something that is at least comparable to that of MGS4s. Not better, not exactly equal, but the quality is in the same range.

No, dude. Halo 3 character models are shit. They are not in the same range; it's a step up from Halo 2, but then that was absolutely miserable by Xbox standards. MGS4 has the character model shit down. And FYI, when I was talking about the atmospheric FX, I was doing as a counter to the ridiculous claim that the game doesn't look that good. It looks damned good, some less than brilliant textures be damned.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 18, 2008, 07:25:21 PM
i read the long posts, but if I don't necessarily have anything to add i don't usually respond
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 18, 2008, 09:03:44 PM
let's say you have a 60gb unit. let's say 50% of all games you buy have a 2-6gb install, 3.5 on average. if i buy 30 games -- and i have over 120 for the ps2 -- i have 3.5 x 15 = 52.5gb worth of installs, leaving very little room for demo/game downloads, game caches, and the occasional oddball game that wants to write a massive save. this is bullshit.

my pc has 500gb space. my pc also has convenient uninstall and backup features, and a defrag option.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 18, 2008, 09:10:04 PM
i don't see this "amazing detail" on the mgs4 models -- i just see halo 3 level polys and ps2 textures on great modeling efforts
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MoxManiac on May 18, 2008, 09:17:18 PM
I just put a 160GB HDD in my PS3 so this does not bother me one bit
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: bork on May 18, 2008, 09:26:08 PM
Hey, uh...I got a gaming-class laptop in 2004 that cost $3,200 and it only came with a 50gb hard drive.  Just saying.

Of course the installs I had to do would actually install the ENTIRE GAME to the hard drive.

I just put a 160GB HDD in my PS3 so this does not bother me one bit

I did this over a year ago.  Being able to upgrade the HDD was the reason I paid less and got the 20gb model in the first place.  The required installs are dumb, but how games out there use them right now, three?  Four?  Bit too early to be going into full-on panic mode.

Plus you guys act like the PS3 has a ton of games worth owning, "LOLZ LOLZ." 
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 09:32:12 PM
let's say you have a 60gb unit. let's say 50% of all games you buy have a 2-6gb install, 3.5 on average. if i buy 30 games -- and i have over 120 for the ps2 -- i have 3.5 x 15 = 52.5gb worth of installs, leaving very little room for demo/game downloads, game caches, and the occasional oddball game that wants to write a massive save. this is bullshit.

So then delete the caches of games you don't play on a regular basis (and given your attitude towards games in general, that list has got to be massive). You don't lose your saves (much like the PC idea of uninstalling while keeping game saves).

And the demo and game downloads, that sounds like you're enjoying another awesome PC function, eh? So in the end, the issue you guys are having is that the HDD is too small. Then upgrade it. You get what you pay for, which in the case of the PS3 involves a 60GB HDD, with the option to install a larger HDD at an additional cost.

sigh - what is the difference? are you serious? when was the last time you had a gaming PC with 40/60 gig storage capacity? 1992 possibly?

60 gig capacity is already too small if it installs this much stuff - i'm off to work in 10 minutes, when i get back, i'll break down what i have on my 60 gig and you'll see i have to decide WHICH game i have installs + DLC. NO music, no movies, no photos (i can stream all of that from my PC), 1 Demo (MGO!) so  just GAMES and DLC INSTALLS.

do i have the same problem on my PC? NO. Why? Because even a shitty pc comes with over 500gigs of storage. I may have to delete games at some point (well, i would if i didn't actuall have 2.5TB), but we are talking about 50-100 games before it even crosses my mind.

The PC defense is a fantasy - the stark reality is we have to go back to 486 times to have anywhere NEAR a comprable situation (and then we were balking at 8 meg games, so even it's probably not the same EITHER) . Put it into numbers, see how laughable the "same as a PC" argument is.

What a bunch of crap. Going back only a few years, the standard HDD size was 80GB, and that's a generous estimate. The PC I bought last year, from a dedicated gaming PC company, was configured with an 80GB as the baseline standard. 1992? You'd be the king of the neighborhood if you pimped a PC with a whopping 1GB of HDD space back in those days. Speaking of arguments riddled with holes, now we are falling back on pure fantasy to keep the autonomous gripemobile going?

As you've already concluded, upgrading the HDD will solve this issue. You get what you pay for, and the budget price here gives you a system that gives you good and bad PC functionalities, on a budget level. I don't like developers falling back on patches, but I do like media storage. And I'll like mandatory installs if they are justified. A few seconds shorter loading times in a multiplatform game at the cost of 5GB of HDD space, that might be worth questioning. But people throwing around shit about Konami being lazy and there being no need for a mandatory install, that's just ridiculous at this point. No one here can say why exactly it needs this install, yet people are already calling foul.
 
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Christopher on May 18, 2008, 10:28:48 PM
This is the last game I'm going to get before I"m done with videogames
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 10:32:37 PM
yes, i made an horrific error with 60 gig - it was more like 200 mb back in 1992. yes. but a few years and standard hard drive was 80gig? I'm not sure about that, but hey. Even so, why is something that an albeit standard pc practice now acceptable on consoles? especially when the nearest rival console that has the same games does not exhibit the same problem?

I'm not understanding this argument. I ran into space issues with my Premium after only a few months, due to frivolous downloading of demos. Game patches also require cache space, and if I'm not entirely mistaken, game caches and "saves" do take up space. Not a lot of it, but then there's also not a ton of space on that HDD.

At the end of the day, going with an 80 gig drive has to be driven by -your- purchasing gaming habits and what -you- want to put up with. For me , that's completely different and i'm at my limit of HDD. I can't really take the argument any further! I'm at... my... hdd... limit. I play a lot of PC games and do music/photo work on it so i made sure it was fit for purpose : tons and tons of space. Do i really have to start taking this into account for the PS3? Can you see the wider retail implications here? You can see where this is going in the X360 vs PS3 debate without anyone pointing it out surely? 

But that's something you, as a "poweruser" (haven't gotten to use that in a few years, woohoo), should take into account. The HDD size was likely determined based on your average user. A dude who downloads a reasonable amount of demos, stores a reasonable amount of music and pictures, and who doesn't play all of the games in his library on a regular basis. For that person, 60GB (now 80GB) is really not a small amount of space. When you consider that the competition sells a system that features over 40GB less usable space and also pimps its game media content download functionalities, it's really not that limited. You, on the other hand, fall outside the average user bracket, and people like you (and me) will have to upgrade. And that option is there, but as with any other situation where you fall outside the average user bracket, there's an additional cost involved.


Quote from: dcharlie
hold on here - NO ONE is complaining about devs being lazy, or the time it takes to install before i can play games -the first time- (note i'm making a distinction here) , or anything of that of any sort. It's the juggling of games that is the problem. It has implications for Sony's answer to XBL , it has implications about replayability of games (if you stick with the stock drive (as i suspect the vast majority of consumers will)) then you are surely going to have to limit your choice of accessible games. As i say, i'm AT THAT POINT NOW and i've bought most multiparty games on x360.

You haven't read Raban's posts in this thread, have you? If one was to assume that his posts were based on findings after actually playing the game, one could very easily be led to believe that the game cache is just there because Kojima is too lazy to figure out another way to get the same result. And that's what I'm questioning, this knee-jerk reaction against game installs when in reality, no one knows why this cache is needed. I don't even like the company, but I have hard time stomaching the idea that this install is somehow a lazy shortcut. We'll see when it comes out, the cache may or may not seem justified.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Sho Nuff on May 18, 2008, 10:42:20 PM
I'm gonna wait it out and get the 360 version with no install and 720p 4xMSAA
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 10:44:18 PM
I'd enjoy reading the breakdowns between install time and estimated time spent switching discs. Didn't some idiots do something of the sort with DCM4? Which, by the way, would be an example of a situation where some griping makes sense. Was that optional or mandatory?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 11:04:15 PM
You haven't read Raban's posts in this thread, have you? If one was to assume that his posts were based on findings after actually playing the game, one could very easily be led to believe that the game cache is just there because Kojima is too lazy to figure out another way to get the same result. And that's what I'm questioning, this knee-jerk reaction against game installs when in reality, no one knows why this cache is needed. I don't even like the company, but I have hard time stomaching the idea that this install is somehow a lazy shortcut. We'll see when it comes out, the cache may or may not seem justified.

Did you even read my last whopping-ass post or did your attention trail off? I never specified that Kojima was the lazy one, that's Corporate Identity bullshit. I'm saying that because of online and standard HDD, devs are sure to become lazy in regards to bug testing and gameplay elements that they'll just ship out a patch for later on.

You went from being respectable and calming my crazy-ass down to becoming a crazy-ass yourself.

Quote
But that's something you, as a "poweruser" (haven't gotten to use that in a few years, woohoo), should take into account. The HDD size was likely determined based on your average user. A dude who downloads a reasonable amount of demos, stores a reasonable amount of music and pictures, and who doesn't play all of the games in his library on a regular basis. For that person, 60GB (now 80GB) is really not a small amount of space. When you consider that the competition sells a system that features over 40GB less usable space and also pimps its game media content download functionalities, it's really not that limited. You, on the other hand, fall outside the average user bracket, and people like you (and me) will have to upgrade. And that option is there, but as with any other situation where you fall outside the average user bracket, there's an additional cost involved.

Good job with anecdotal ass residue there. Everybody I know who has a PS3, hardcore gamer or not, buys trailers and demos up like they were in limited release, and most of them don't bother to uninstall them, even after they've finished playing. If we run with MY piece of anecdotal evidence instead of yours, not only is the time taken to install a 4GB cache onto your hard drive, but also the time taken to uninstall shit you don't seem to use anymore to make room for said cache.

Oh yeah, and it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction, you crazy motherfucker, to call the devs lazy. Almost every top-billing game has received a major patch to fix performance issues weeks after release. This is called laziness on the developer's behalf.

EDIT: Btw,

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/Gearharaden/image-o-maticx.jpg)
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/Gearharaden/metal-gear-solid-4-guns-of-the-patr.jpg)

Neck and neck? Fuck no. Comparable? I'd say so.

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 11:15:54 PM
Oh yeah, and it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction, you crazy motherfucker, to call the devs lazy. Almost every top-billing game has received a major patch to fix performance issues weeks after release. This is called laziness on the developer's behalf.

Sure, that qualifies. Not as laziness, but it sucks that the "we'll fix it in post" has become common practice. But the outrage over this particular situation is a knee-jerk reaction. We don't know what benefit the cache will have, yet it's already widely labeled an atrocity. Maybe I misread this, but I could have sworn that you yourself went on a longer rant regarding the time and money spent on developing this exclusive game, and questioning why it would still require this cache. That to me is the same as opnely doubting that the developer is doing the best job it can do. And as we don't actually know what this cache is and what it benefits, going on a raging bender over its mere existence is more than a little bit premature.

Good job with anecdotal ass residue there. Everybody I know who has a PS3, hardcore gamer or not, buys trailers and demos up like they were in limited release, and most of them don't bother to uninstall them, even after they've finished playing. If we run with MY piece of anecdotal evidence instead of yours, not only is the time taken to install a 4GB cache onto your hard drive, but also the time taken to uninstall shit you don't seem to use anymore to make room for said cache.

Uh, then that's their fucking problem then, isn't it? You can't really in good conscience bitch about having no more space on a HDD if you aren't prepared to at least clean up the crap that you don't use. And as for my anecdotal evidence, I'm really just suggesting that Sony designed this with a specific average in mind. Whether that average is correct or not, I don't know. But I seem to recall one of the Sony head honchos even acknowledging this, and referencing the upgradeable HDD as a solution for the "power users".

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 18, 2008, 11:20:06 PM
I think Kojima and his whole team are a very talented, hard-working bunch of individuals. Happy now, duckman?

The install still sucks but it's not their fault they have to deal with a shitty 1x speed 1st-gen BR drive. The HDD install is the best way to solve the problems it creates - slow-ass loading times, stuttering, texture and geometry pop-in etc. etc. It's not a great solution, which is why Borys and Raban are riled, but it's pretty damn clear from the gradual position shift from Kojima Productions' and Sony PR that it IS a solution to a problem, not a 'feature' that will make the game greater than it would have been on a 360.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 18, 2008, 11:23:01 PM
I'm gonna wait it out and get the 360 version with no install and 720p 4xMSAA

good plan!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 11:23:58 PM
Which games use this install method anyway? I mean, all games install a cache of some sort, but I don't think I actually own a PS3 game that requires a multi-GB install. I'm more concerned about the increasing size of demos at this point, but then I guess most of those can be uninstalled without giving a shit.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: pilonv1 on May 18, 2008, 11:26:35 PM
I thought it changed the load times by like 2-3 seconds. If we take 3 seconds cut off per load on a 20 minute install, you'd need FOUR HUNDRED (400) loading screens to make a difference.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 18, 2008, 11:28:14 PM
The PS3 and X360 aren't PCs and neither do they have the same base storage capacity. And as an ADD gamer, i don't want to have a shortened list of games that i can play (yes, i know PC etc... but again, scale is WAY different and this is a console!)
 

What's the difference between console and PC, really? Both Microsoft and Sony have gone straight for offering budget gaming PCs (complete with giving developers the luxury of releasing unfinished games knowing that it can be finished with a few patches distributed across the network), so unless you're a Wiiner, don't gripe too loud about having to deal with PC traditions. So you have to delete a few game caches, which would be exactly how it'd work on a PC. Big deal. If you have a 60GB machine, then you should have ample storage for game caches. That is, unless you filled the HDD with music, photos or video, but then you wouldn't have done that since you don't want the whole PC in a box situation anyway.

But then this whole situation is mostly annoying because it's so god damned pathetic; the majority of people "concerned" with this are not only bent console jockeys (I want simplicity, waah waah), but shitsifting Xtards at that. Of course, the arguments would be reversed if the situation was reversed. It's getting to be too fucking predictable, and that includes my own involvement.


No dude, there are actual 20GB owners who are fucked by this. And dcharlie makes a good point about Home. I personally like to pop in games off and on over the course of years, and I like not having to delete shit and then wait 10 minutes for an install. And if you're going to be doing this sort of Home interface it becomes even dumber.

Even 40 and 60GB owners will eventually be fucked if we keep getting 4 games every 7 months that take up 5GB each.

Never mind all the giant patches and shit I keep having to download and install. And the savegame files that are out of control huge (my Ratchet save is over 100MB IIRC). and 7GB or so isntantly eaten up when you format your HDD for PS3. I doubt a 20GB owner could even fit 3 games on it.

I owned like 3 PS3 games, none with installs and had like 8GB left before upgrading.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 11:30:02 PM
Sure, that qualifies. Not as laziness, but it sucks that the "we'll fix it in post" has become common practice. But the outrage over this particular situation is a knee-jerk reaction. We don't know what benefit the cache will have, yet it's already widely labeled an atrocity. Maybe I misread this, but I could have sworn that you yourself went on a longer rant regarding the time and money spent on developing this exclusive game, and questioning why it would still require this cache. That to me is the same as opnely doubting that the developer is doing the best job it can do. And as we don't actually know what this cache is and what it benefits, going on a raging bender over its mere existence is more than a little bit premature.

My argument is that you defending mandatory HD installs is baseless and doesn't make a lick of sense. Not only did you state you didn't give a shit, but you're jumping on my ass about a ton of accusations I didn't make. The anger I expressed in this thread wasn't caused solely by MGS4, but rather a culmination of this next-gen bullshit, where nothing is really improved at all except minor visual effects and the like. MGS4 just happened to push me over the edge because of the fact that even a PS3 exclusive game can't get its shit straight. You're definitely misinterpreting the theme behind my argument, because I'll happily admit KojiPro is probably working their asses off to get MGS4 done, but after three games, four years with the system, and around 40 million dollars, what's coming out looks like substandard.

And I know you're gonna say "WE'VE ONLY SEEN SCREENSHOTS AND VIDEOS, YOU HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED THE GAME BLAH BLAH BLAH", but the matter of the fact is, KojiPro's PR shipped or approved those images and videos for public release, which means they think in some way that what we've seen so far is a good showcase of the technical side of the game.

Quote
Uh, then that's their fucking problem then, isn't it? You can't really in good conscience bitch about having no more space on a HDD if you aren't prepared to at least clean up the crap that you don't use. And as for my anecdotal evidence, I'm really just suggesting that Sony designed this with a specific average in mind. Whether that average is correct or not, I don't know. But I seem to recall one of the Sony head honchos even acknowledging this, and referencing the upgradeable HDD as a solution for the "power users".

What kind of flip-flopping is this? First you use casual gamers as an example supporting your side, now you don't give a shit about them. Thumbs up!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 18, 2008, 11:30:44 PM
I'm gonna wait it out and get the 360 version with no install and 720p 4xMSAA

good plan!

The genius of it is he wins even if the 360 version never happens!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 11:31:07 PM
But yeah, maybe casuals will be fine. I just can't tell either way. Maybe casual PS3 fans will be fine if the anecdotal "movies, one or two games" theory is on the money?

I have a few seasons of Blackadder, the whole Bottom series and a few movies (not HD quality, mind you), as well as a bunch of music and a handful of PSN games and demos on the HDD, and I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20GB left. Now, I don't have any games that require multi-GB installs on there, and I don't think I will for some time. I don't know really, it'd always be better with more space, but in my case, dropping a few demos would clean things up quite a bit. I don't know which bracket I fit into, but I'm not feeling terribly cramped yet.

Again though, if the install gives worthwhile benefits, then I'm all for it. And I'm not going to claim that they should make it optional, because I don't know if the game is designed to allow for that. DMC4 does not sound worthwhile, but I don't know yet if MGS4 is as useless.

What kind of flip-flopping is this? First you use casual gamers as an example supporting your side, now you don't give a shit about them. Thumbs up!

There's NO flip-flopping there though. I'm talking about a possible estimate of average usage, which would be what Sony likely went by in determining the HDD size. I don't know if their estimate is correct or not, but the console clearly wasn't designed for enthusiasts. That much has been said by people from Sony.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 11:35:40 PM
But yeah, maybe casuals will be fine. I just can't tell either way. Maybe casual PS3 fans will be fine if the anecdotal "movies, one or two games" theory is on the money?

I have a few seasons of Blackadder, the whole Bottom series and a few movies (not HD quality, mind you), as well as a bunch of music and a handful of PSN games and demos on the HDD, and I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20GB left. Now, I don't have any games that require multi-GB installs on there, and I don't think I will for some time. I don't know really, it'd always be better with more space, but in my case, dropping a few demos would clean things up quite a bit. I don't know which bracket I fit into, but I'm not feeling terribly cramped yet.

Again though, if the install gives worthwhile benefits, then I'm all for it. And I'm not going to claim that they should make it optional, because I don't know if the game is designed to allow for that. DMC4 does not sound worthwhile, but I don't know yet if MGS4 is as useless.

 :duh

Thou Shalt Make Your Game Actually Works (http://www.cracked.com/article_16196_p6.html)
Quote
We're ashamed to even have to include this. This is like having to ask McDonald's to cook the burger before they serve it to you, or having to remind your dentist not to videotape himself slapping you in the face with his penis while you're under. It's the sort of thing you'd feel ridiculous saying. Yet, here we are, telling the game industry to please only sell us games that function.

Duckman, would you buy an L-shaped condom?
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 11:36:59 PM
The PS3 and X360 aren't PCs and neither do they have the same base storage capacity. And as an ADD gamer, i don't want to have a shortened list of games that i can play (yes, i know PC etc... but again, scale is WAY different and this is a console!)
 

What's the difference between console and PC, really? Both Microsoft and Sony have gone straight for offering budget gaming PCs (complete with giving developers the luxury of releasing unfinished games knowing that it can be finished with a few patches distributed across the network), so unless you're a Wiiner, don't gripe too loud about having to deal with PC traditions. So you have to delete a few game caches, which would be exactly how it'd work on a PC. Big deal. If you have a 60GB machine, then you should have ample storage for game caches. That is, unless you filled the HDD with music, photos or video, but then you wouldn't have done that since you don't want the whole PC in a box situation anyway.

But then this whole situation is mostly annoying because it's so god damned pathetic; the majority of people "concerned" with this are not only bent console jockeys (I want simplicity, waah waah), but shitsifting Xtards at that. Of course, the arguments would be reversed if the situation was reversed. It's getting to be too fucking predictable, and that includes my own involvement.


No dude, there are actual 20GB owners who are fucked by this. And dcharlie makes a good point about Home. I personally like to pop in games off and on over the course of years, and I like not having to delete shit and then wait 10 minutes for an install. And if you're going to be doing this sort of Home interface it becomes even dumber.

Even 40 and 60GB owners will eventually be fucked if we keep getting 4 games every 7 months that take up 5GB each.

Never mind all the giant patches and shit I keep having to download and install. And the savegame files that are out of control huge (my Ratchet save is over 100MB IIRC). and 7GB or so isntantly eaten up when you format your HDD for PS3. I doubt a 20GB owner could even fit 3 games on it.

Fair enough, but then that is the budget version, and subsequently the budget experience.

And what's this about Home? Is the application massive or something? Honest question, I'm not following Home at all.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 11:40:22 PM
:duh

Thou Shalt Make Your Game Actually Works (http://www.cracked.com/article_16196_p6.html)
Quote
We're ashamed to even have to include this. This is like having to ask McDonald's to cook the burger before they serve it to you, or having to remind your dentist not to videotape himself slapping you in the face with his penis while you're under. It's the sort of thing you'd feel ridiculous saying. Yet, here we are, telling the game industry to please only sell us games that function.

But if the game doesn't fucking work without the cache, then asking for it to be optional is idiotic. You don't know jack shit about how the game is designed, so why the blind request for something that may not be possible without drastically changing the game, and by doing so perhaps threaten the vision that the developer has for the game? There's nothing dysfunctional about releasing a game with a mandatory install on a system that supports it. You may not like that it takes up space, but that doesn't make it a wrong.

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: pilonv1 on May 18, 2008, 11:41:29 PM
I have on my 40gb drive just TWO installs - Everybodys Golf World Tour and GT5. I've also got some music a bunch of demo's (Haze, MLB 08, Siren, Battle Fantasia), the Metal Gear Online beta and some PSN games (SSHD, PixelJunk Monsters, Warhawk Omega Pack) and I'm well under 15gb. If you added in DMC4 and MGS4 I'd be looking at almost no space.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 18, 2008, 11:43:30 PM
The PS3 and X360 aren't PCs and neither do they have the same base storage capacity. And as an ADD gamer, i don't want to have a shortened list of games that i can play (yes, i know PC etc... but again, scale is WAY different and this is a console!)
 

What's the difference between console and PC, really? Both Microsoft and Sony have gone straight for offering budget gaming PCs (complete with giving developers the luxury of releasing unfinished games knowing that it can be finished with a few patches distributed across the network), so unless you're a Wiiner, don't gripe too loud about having to deal with PC traditions. So you have to delete a few game caches, which would be exactly how it'd work on a PC. Big deal. If you have a 60GB machine, then you should have ample storage for game caches. That is, unless you filled the HDD with music, photos or video, but then you wouldn't have done that since you don't want the whole PC in a box situation anyway.

But then this whole situation is mostly annoying because it's so god damned pathetic; the majority of people "concerned" with this are not only bent console jockeys (I want simplicity, waah waah), but shitsifting Xtards at that. Of course, the arguments would be reversed if the situation was reversed. It's getting to be too fucking predictable, and that includes my own involvement.


No dude, there are actual 20GB owners who are fucked by this. And dcharlie makes a good point about Home. I personally like to pop in games off and on over the course of years, and I like not having to delete shit and then wait 10 minutes for an install. And if you're going to be doing this sort of Home interface it becomes even dumber.

Even 40 and 60GB owners will eventually be fucked if we keep getting 4 games every 7 months that take up 5GB each.

Never mind all the giant patches and shit I keep having to download and install. And the savegame files that are out of control huge (my Ratchet save is over 100MB IIRC). and 7GB or so isntantly eaten up when you format your HDD for PS3. I doubt a 20GB owner could even fit 3 games on it.

Fair enough, but then that is the budget version, and subsequently the budget experience.

And what's this about Home? Is the application massive or something? Honest question, I'm not following Home at all.


If you buy all the hot titles this year you're already at 20GB full, even a 40GB or 60GB person will balk. 7GB for PS3 system files, 100MB savegames, 800MB Warhawk (with Wipeout and SOCOM on the way), patches and firmwares that keep getting larger, DLC, demos, trailers, wallpapers. It will not be difficult for a 60GB person to get fucked in 2 years if they actually play PS3 as their primary console.

6 months of owning a 20GB and buying most games on 360 got me 7GB remaining. That's a nice chunk on 360 but it evaporates if you buy ANY games that require installs. ANY.

And Home si supposed to let you jump in and out of your sfotware with friends, doesn't work so well if the game is longer than a month old and you need to go install. GTA4 is the perfect example of a game that can't have an install - you're going to be popping that on and off for a while especially if you like online.

I have on my 40gb drive just TWO installs - Everybodys Golf World Tour and GT5. I've also got some music a bunch of demo's (Haze, MLB 08, Siren, Battle Fantasia), the Metal Gear Online beta and some PSN games (SSHD, PixelJunk Monsters, Warhawk Omega Pack) and I'm well under 15gb. If you added in DMC4 and MGS4 I'd be looking at almost no space.

And GTA, instantly fucked.

You get more out of 13GB on 360 than 40GB (aka 33GB) on PS3.

I have Halo, Gears map packs (all of them), 20 XBLA games, 5 XBLA demos, probably 8-9 full game demos, savegames, and a bunch of other smaller DLC packs and shit like Crackdown. I have a nice solid 2GB left, I might have to delete a demo from 6 months ago if I want to download the next 2 demos that come out. And when I put PGR3 in for the first time in over a year it booted instantaneously. There was a game update that took 5 seconds, the same thing would be a 10 minute ordeal on PS3.

Having 2GB on PS3 is suicide these days. 
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 11:44:56 PM
:duh

Thou Shalt Make Your Game Actually Works (http://www.cracked.com/article_16196_p6.html)
Quote
We're ashamed to even have to include this. This is like having to ask McDonald's to cook the burger before they serve it to you, or having to remind your dentist not to videotape himself slapping you in the face with his penis while you're under. It's the sort of thing you'd feel ridiculous saying. Yet, here we are, telling the game industry to please only sell us games that function.

But if the game doesn't fucking work without the cache, then asking for it to be optional is idiotic. You don't know jack shit about how the game is designed, so why the blind request for something that may not be possible without drastically changing the game, and by doing so perhaps threaten the vision that the developer has for the game? There's nothing dysfunctional about releasing a game with a mandatory install on a system that supports it. You may not like that it takes up space, but that doesn't make it a wrong.



That's the whole FUCKING point I'm trying to make, jack!

It shouldn't need the FUCKING HDD for FUCK'S sake!

It's a FUCKING console FUCKING game MOTHERFUCKER. It should have been designed from the FUCKING get-go to not need the FUCKING HDD you dumb BITCH.

Is it too much to ask to let me put the FUCKING disc in the FUCKING tray and FUCKING play it right FUCKING then!? I FUCKING guess so, according to Duckman's FUCKED up FUCKING explanation for things that I can't FUCKING understand, according to Doctor FUCKING DuckFUCKER.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 11:49:11 PM
:duh

Thou Shalt Make Your Game Actually Works (http://www.cracked.com/article_16196_p6.html)
Quote
We're ashamed to even have to include this. This is like having to ask McDonald's to cook the burger before they serve it to you, or having to remind your dentist not to videotape himself slapping you in the face with his penis while you're under. It's the sort of thing you'd feel ridiculous saying. Yet, here we are, telling the game industry to please only sell us games that function.

But if the game doesn't fucking work without the cache, then asking for it to be optional is idiotic. You don't know jack shit about how the game is designed, so why the blind request for something that may not be possible without drastically changing the game, and by doing so perhaps threaten the vision that the developer has for the game? There's nothing dysfunctional about releasing a game with a mandatory install on a system that supports it. You may not like that it takes up space, but that doesn't make it a wrong.



That's the whole FUCKING point I'm trying to make, jack!

It shouldn't need the FUCKING HDD for FUCK'S sake!

It's a FUCKING console FUCKING game MOTHERFUCKER. It should have been designed from the FUCKING get-go to not need the FUCKING HDD you dumb BITCH.

Is it too much to ask to let me put the FUCKING disc in the FUCKING tray and FUCKING play it right FUCKING then!? I FUCKING guess so, according to Duckman's FUCKED up FUCKING explanation for things that I can't FUCKING understand, according to Doctor FUCKING DuckFUCKER.

And how in the hell is that supposed to be achieved? Don't like the HDD? Stick with Wii. The PS3 has a HDD, and developers use it. Some use it well, others just use it. The HDD gives us the benefit of storing media and games, but it comes with the downside of being used to facilitate the release of incomplete or buggy games. An install file, however, does not fall in that bracket. Whether it's there to cover up flaws in other parts of the console's design or not, it's not poor usage of an HDD.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 18, 2008, 11:50:23 PM
It's not crazy to think someone is going to be dabbling in Warhawk, GT5, HSG, and MGS4 at the same time. 40GB is instantly out of over half their space.

If you don't want the "budget experience" you need to go 100+GB or just not be that into gaming (and forget about putting music on it)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 11:53:05 PM
And how in the hell is that supposed to be achieved? Don't like the HDD? Stick with Wii. The PS3 has a HDD, and developers use it. Some use it well, others just use it. The HDD gives us the benefit of storing media and games, but it comes with the downside of being used to facilitate the release of incomplete or buggy games. An install file, however, does not fall in that bracket. Whether it's there to cover up flaws in other parts of the console's design or not, it's not poor usage of an HDD.

Why the fuck do you make it sound like HDDs are necessary for next-gen games? 360 has an HDD, let's count how many games use it for a cache >1GB:

~

That's right! None! Fuck you!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 18, 2008, 11:54:35 PM
Honestly, aside from Wifi you'd have to be a Goddamn idiot to buy anything but a 20GB. At least I don't shed a tear when I throw a 20GB drive in the garbage.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 18, 2008, 11:56:28 PM
Quote
And how in the hell is that supposed to be achieved?

by having a well designed machine with console gaming in mind from the get go?

But no one, except Nintendo, has managed to develop such a machine, or at least not one that is going to meet all wishes and requirements of the people. And these people seem quite happy about other usages of the HDD, with this install deal being the big bad wolf. I can see space being an issue, but asking for it to be optional, and arguing that developers should be able to do better when that could very well be crucial to sticking close to the vision the developer has of the game, I don't get that.

Again, no one here knows how Konami is using that HDD, and the cache file. So it is premature to complain about it.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 18, 2008, 11:59:37 PM
Quote
And how in the hell is that supposed to be achieved?

by having a well designed machine with console gaming in mind from the get go?

But no one, except Nintendo, has managed to develop such a machine, or at least not one that is going to meet all wishes and requirements of the people. And these people seem quite happy about other usages of the HDD, with this install deal being the big bad wolf. I can see space being an issue, but asking for it to be optional, and arguing that developers should be able to do better when that could very well be crucial to sticking close to the vision the developer has of the game, I don't get that.

Again, no one here knows how Konami is using that HDD, and the cache file. So it is premature to complain about it.


It's not premature. My main complaint isn't if the mandatory install is going to be worthwhile or not, that's the part you give a shit about, and I don't give a shit about you. What my main complaint is that HDD installations exist period, and just like paying 60 dollars for games, or online patching, HDD installations are going to become standard when we let games like MGS4 fly by without so much as a blink.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 18, 2008, 11:59:45 PM
How did HDD installs help the "vision of the developer" in the install-games that are out? Why do GTA4 and LP run worse despite this? Is HSG impossible on 360? What great vision was finally realized on PS3 in DMC4?

How can it be premature when HDDs are already rapidly filling up and no game to this point has done shit to be worth it, and MGS4 is already less than the graphical showcase it was expected to be? MGS4 has to prove that it was worth it, we don't have to give it the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 12:02:26 AM
How did HDD installs help the "vision of the developer" in the install-games that are out? Why do GTA4 and LP run worse despite this? Is HSG impossible on 360? What great vision was finally realized on PS3 in DMC4?

The vision that Capcom wants gamers to learn Sanskrit. Bitches love Sanskrit.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 19, 2008, 12:03:20 AM
i can tell you how mgs4 uses the cache file -- to fucking CACHE FILES because the blu-ray drive is so goddamn slow on the edges. that's the point of a cache! if there's gonna be heavy-duty streaming, then the cache is an easy solution to the problem of drive sluggishness. mgs4 may be many things, but technically accomplished ain't one of them, and if the game TRULY requires a blu-ray disc to hold its content, then there ain't gonna be any room for file mirroring to help with stream seeks.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 12:05:27 AM
i can tell you how mgs4 uses the cache file -- to fucking CACHE FILES because the blu-ray drive is so goddamn slow on the edges. that's the point of a cache! if there's gonna be heavy-duty streaming, then the cache is an easy solution to that problem.

Too bad where that would normally help, PS3 takes a fuckload of time to read off its HDD, causing longer load times and snags during streaming. YAY!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 12:07:24 AM
Quote
And how in the hell is that supposed to be achieved?

by having a well designed machine with console gaming in mind from the get go?

But no one, except Nintendo, has managed to develop such a machine, or at least not one that is going to meet all wishes and requirements of the people. And these people seem quite happy about other usages of the HDD, with this install deal being the big bad wolf. I can see space being an issue, but asking for it to be optional, and arguing that developers should be able to do better when that could very well be crucial to sticking close to the vision the developer has of the game, I don't get that.

Again, no one here knows how Konami is using that HDD, and the cache file. So it is premature to complain about it.


It's not premature. My main complaint isn't if the mandatory install is going to be worthwhile or not, that's the part you give a shit about, and I don't give a shit about you. What my main complaint is that HDD installations exist period, and just like paying 60 dollars for games, or online patching, HDD installations are going to become standard when we let games like MGS4 fly by without so much as a blink.

But if they can't build the game and have it run on the PS3 without this install cache, then griping about it is idiotic. You could wish that they would release it on the 360, but then it'd be compromised or a hassle to deal with due to the limited disc space. And it is premature, as you do not fucking know what it affects or why it is specifically needed for this specific game. Does it have to track complex, persistent data through levels? That'd be one good reason to use the cache. I don't know if it does anything of the sort, or if it's really just covering for another weakness in the system it's developed for. But until I do know, I'm not going to gripe about it being a horrible waste of space and the wrong thing to do.

How did HDD installs help the "vision of the developer" in the install-games that are out? Why do GTA4 and LP run worse despite this? Is HSG impossible on 360? What great vision was finally realized on PS3 in DMC4?

How can it be premature when HDDs are already rapidly filling up and no game to this point has done shit to be worth it, and MGS4 is already less than the graphical showcase it was expected to be? MGS4 has to prove that it was worth it, we don't have to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Or you could choose to not bitch about it until you actually know if its worth bitching about. As I've said, I don't see the benefits of this in DMC4, not one worth the space it takes up at least. And this could be, as our very reasonable friend Prole suggests, be a matter of covering for other weaknesses. But even in that case, it's hardly any point to griping about it, as it'd then still be a necessity.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 19, 2008, 12:10:34 AM
Quote
And how in the hell is that supposed to be achieved?

by having a well designed machine with console gaming in mind from the get go?

But no one, except Nintendo, has managed to develop such a machine, or at least not one that is going to meet all wishes and requirements of the people. And these people seem quite happy about other usages of the HDD, with this install deal being the big bad wolf. I can see space being an issue, but asking for it to be optional, and arguing that developers should be able to do better when that could very well be crucial to sticking close to the vision the developer has of the game, I don't get that.

Again, no one here knows how Konami is using that HDD, and the cache file. So it is premature to complain about it.


It's not premature. My main complaint isn't if the mandatory install is going to be worthwhile or not, that's the part you give a shit about, and I don't give a shit about you. What my main complaint is that HDD installations exist period, and just like paying 60 dollars for games, or online patching, HDD installations are going to become standard when we let games like MGS4 fly by without so much as a blink.

But if they can't build the game and have it run on the PS3 without this install cache, then griping about it is idiotic. You could wish that they would release it on the 360, but then it'd be compromised or a hassle to deal with due to the limited disc space. And it is premature, as you do not fucking know what it affects or why it is specifically needed for this specific game. Does it have to track complex, persistent data through levels? That'd be one good reason to use the cache. I don't know if it does anything of the sort, or if it's really just covering for another weakness in the system it's developed for. But until I do know, I'm not going to gripe about it being a horrible waste of space and the wrong thing to do.



You're right, PS3 sucks.

And I'm still waiting for actual proof that limited disc space is damaging my gaming. I haven't played a 360 game that felt gimped and I haven't played a BLU RAY (TM) game that feels like it's doing anything different from 360. You can't hold up some strawman maybe-someday shit like that against legitimate, existing grief people are getting from their HDDs, right now.

Maybe MGS4 is in fact an open world MMORPG that remembers every snapped blade of grass you step on,  but I'm not going to cover my eyes and ears waiting for that reality to be revealed to me.

And if PS3 is so weak that games can't fucking function without 5GB installs then all PS3s should have 100GB hard drives, since they're apparently so cheap to all the Sony fanboys.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 12:13:09 AM
You can't hold up some strawman maybe-someday shit like that against legitimate, existing grief people are getting from their HDDs, right now.

Except of course for the fact that no one here actually has the source of so much grief installed on their PS3 at this point. So really, saying "maybe-some day" echoes hollow when you consider that all this bitching is over something that is, right now, an unknown.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 19, 2008, 12:14:36 AM
We have a large pool of other games causing problems. You're not going to succeed in convincing me that I didn't have to go buy a 160GB hard drive for $70 (to pop into my MSRP $500 'budget console), stop trying.

There are higher odds that this will be the 12th game to have no discernible benefit from caching than that its doing something magical that no dev has described behind it's just-good graphics.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: pilonv1 on May 19, 2008, 12:15:14 AM
And how in the hell is that supposed to be achieved? Don't like the HDD? Stick with Wii. The PS3 has a HDD, and developers use it. Some use it well, others just use it. The HDD gives us the benefit of storing media and games, but it comes with the downside of being used to facilitate the release of incomplete or buggy games. An install file, however, does not fall in that bracket. Whether it's there to cover up flaws in other parts of the console's design or not, it's not poor usage of an HDD.

Why the fuck do you make it sound like HDDs are necessary for next-gen games? 360 has an HDD, let's count how many games use it for a cache >1GB:

~

That's right! None! Fuck you!

Actually I think Football Manager requires the HDD. And FFXI, but both of those are extreme cases.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: brawndolicious on May 19, 2008, 12:24:43 AM
firstly, MGS sucks and it's common knowledge that it's only liked by elitist complete losers who love homoerotic jappy-wacky nerd humor so who cares if they abuse themselves with 20 minute install screens or hentai or whatever?

However, it is stupid to call the 20 GB PS3 a budget version.  it was more expensive than any console sold by the competition.  It's one thing to allow all games to do that temporary cache thing that you can do on 360's with hard drives, but it's obvious that Sony did not design the PS3 hard drive to do something like a 5 GB install.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: demi on May 19, 2008, 12:37:14 AM
Doesn't Oblivion use the HDD -optionally- as a cache to help with loading? Pretty sure I read some developer comments about it.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 12:39:35 AM
firstly, MGS sucks and it's common knowledge that it's only liked by elitist complete losers who love homoerotic jappy-wacky nerd humor so who cares if they abuse themselves with 20 minute install screens or hentai or whatever?

However, it is stupid to call the 20 GB PS3 a budget version.  it was more expensive than any console sold by the competition.  It's one thing to allow all games to do that temporary cache thing that you can do on 360's with hard drives, but it's obvious that Sony did not design the PS3 hard drive to do something like a 5 GB install.

Well, it's still the budget version of the PS3. That the PS3 in itself was horrendously overpriced is a different matter.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: pilonv1 on May 19, 2008, 12:44:09 AM
Doesn't Oblivion use the HDD -optionally- as a cache to help with loading? Pretty sure I read some developer comments about it.

yep, it even has to be cleared every now and then

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/10531/Oblivion-Fragmented-Cache-Data-Fix/

Quote
Oblivion uses the Xbox 360 hard drive extensively to cache (copy and reuse) game data. This is done to optimize all loading the game does.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Trent Dole on May 19, 2008, 12:44:57 AM
All in favor of changing duckman's name and avatar to Shane Bettenhausen say "aye". ::)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 19, 2008, 12:55:46 AM
You can't hold up some strawman maybe-someday shit like that against legitimate, existing grief people are getting from their HDDs, right now.

Except of course for the fact that no one here actually has the source of so much grief installed on their PS3 at this point. So really, saying "maybe-some day" echoes hollow when you consider that all this bitching is over something that is, right now, an unknown.


Yes, none of us know how it will be used.

But what scenario is better than what people are speculating on? At the end of the day you have:
1) a pain-in-the-ass install process (that you might have to repeat several times if you go back to the game)
2) a significant chunk of HDD space gone

None of those are particularly awful (what good is HDD space if you don't use it??) so i'm personally not that incensed. But I can't imagine any upside that might become obvious once the game is out in the wild. Enlighten us!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 19, 2008, 12:57:46 AM
Quote
But if they can't build the game and have it run on the PS3 without this install cache, then griping about it is idiotic. You could wish that they would release it on the 360, but then it'd be compromised or a hassle to deal with due to the limited disc space.

oh come on, that's a huge leap.

There's several games that are cross platform that need mandatory installs on the PS3 that happen to be WORSE than their X360 counterparts. How can you take that and the infer that the X360 versions of games would be compromised or a hassle to deal with?

I'll go one further - i'll not die of shock if the 4 gig install is the entire game, with the BR simply providing media play back for cut scenes. The install cache will have nothing to do with the media played back, and that's the only area i'd expect the X360 to be compromised. The size of the game and the quality of the game itself wouldn't be touched.

Hell, need more space? compress the sound and video and stick it on two disks.


Or forget about the movies entirely and release a massively-improve game amirite

(although with a DVD-9, you'd still have enough space for a 2hr HD movie with any modern codec even after the supposed 4.6gb cache)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 01:31:16 AM
You can't hold up some strawman maybe-someday shit like that against legitimate, existing grief people are getting from their HDDs, right now.

Except of course for the fact that no one here actually has the source of so much grief installed on their PS3 at this point. So really, saying "maybe-some day" echoes hollow when you consider that all this bitching is over something that is, right now, an unknown.


Yes, none of us know how it will be used.

But what scenario is better than what people are speculating on? At the end of the day you have:
1) a pain-in-the-ass install process (that you might have to repeat several times if you go back to the game)
2) a significant chunk of HDD space gone

None of those are particularly awful (what good is HDD space if you don't use it??) so i'm personally not that incensed. But I can't imagine any upside that might become obvious once the game is out in the wild. Enlighten us!

See, I don't know. So I'm not going to treat it like a DMC4 situation when quite a few capable developers have managed to avoid falling in that hole. This is developed specifically for the PS3, and it's my understanding that Kojima Productions is comprised of quite a few clever people. Naughty Dog managed to do pretty awesome things with only a brief cache install that felt more like an extra long load screen, which resulted in a complete streamlined and good looking game with no freaking load screens anyway. Is Naughty Dog really that much more accomplished than Kojima Productions? If they are not, it's hard to buy that the company wouldn't do something useful with the cache install. So yeah, guesswork, but it's about brilliant of a base as assuming right off the bat that it will be a useless install simply because 3rd party cross platform games have done less than amazing things with that HDD.

On that note, I'm defending fucking Kojima Productions, the developer of a franchise that I really, really do not like. Which is insane. God damn it.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 01:35:27 AM
duckman, please just give up, you're really bad at this. I looked at this thread from the beginning of this argument, and you don't seem to be saying much else in every single one of your fucking replies except

"I don't give a shit what your examples are, we don't know what the cache is for blah blah blah"

Just stop. I can't believe I was falling for your bullshit THIS long.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 01:43:01 AM
duckman, please just give up, you're really bad at this. I looked at this thread from the beginning of this argument, and you don't seem to be saying much else in every single one of your fucking replies except

"I don't give a shit what your examples are, we don't know what the cache is for blah blah blah"

Just stop. I can't believe I was falling for your bullshit THIS long.

Except there is no "bullshit" about that. You went into some knee-jerk panic there, and it makes absolutely no fucking sense to do so right now. Unless the company is a lot less competent than I've been lead to believe. But then some of you guys are claiming that the game itself looks to be below par in most ways, so whatever. What a riot.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 01:48:54 AM
duckman, please just give up, you're really bad at this. I looked at this thread from the beginning of this argument, and you don't seem to be saying much else in every single one of your fucking replies except

"I don't give a shit what your examples are, we don't know what the cache is for blah blah blah"

Just stop. I can't believe I was falling for your bullshit THIS long.

Except there is no "bullshit" about that. You went into some knee-jerk panic there, and it makes absolutely no fucking sense to do so right now. Unless the company is a lot less competent than I've been lead to believe. But then some of you guys are claiming that the game itself looks to be below par in most ways, so whatever. What a riot.


It doesn't make sense for you to repeat the same shit over and over again like your brain is overheated from all the semen you keep snorting every time you suck six dicks stacked like bricks in a row.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 01:51:21 AM
duckman, please just give up, you're really bad at this. I looked at this thread from the beginning of this argument, and you don't seem to be saying much else in every single one of your fucking replies except

"I don't give a shit what your examples are, we don't know what the cache is for blah blah blah"

Just stop. I can't believe I was falling for your bullshit THIS long.

Except there is no "bullshit" about that. You went into some knee-jerk panic there, and it makes absolutely no fucking sense to do so right now. Unless the company is a lot less competent than I've been lead to believe. But then some of you guys are claiming that the game itself looks to be below par in most ways, so whatever. What a riot.


It doesn't make sense for you to repeat the same shit over and over again like your brain is overheated from all the semen you keep snorting every time you suck six dicks stacked like bricks in a row.

So basically, you've got nothing? I suppose that's the EB version of that.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 02:00:41 AM
No, the hopefuls among us might, but the reasonable response to it is probably to save the griping for when it's obvious that it's actually something worth griping about. HDD caching doesn't have to be a generally useless thing, even if other developers have used it for less than amazing things. I don't know exactly how MGS4 is designed, but you guys may know more. What have the previews said about things like load times between areas, and persistent features? And yeah, I am dragging Naughty Dog in to this as the design of its game seems to argue against that for example Blu Ray here creates an even for very good developers insurmountable obstacle that requires a good deal of caching to make up for its weakness. And if there isn't an issue that is insurmountable to quality developers, why would it be assumed that Kojima Productions' usage of the HDD would be on the level of cross platform games?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: brawndolicious on May 19, 2008, 02:04:44 AM
Well, it's still the budget version of the PS3. That the PS3 in itself was horrendously overpriced is a different matter.
yeah, but you can still see how it would be wrong if most major games on PS3 required installing, it just gets annoying..  OTOH, most of the early adopters who got the 20 GB probably got it for Bluray mainly.  I don't think anybody expected installs to become this popular on PS3.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 02:06:27 AM
duckman, please just give up, you're really bad at this. I looked at this thread from the beginning of this argument, and you don't seem to be saying much else in every single one of your fucking replies except

"I don't give a shit what your examples are, we don't know what the cache is for blah blah blah"

Just stop. I can't believe I was falling for your bullshit THIS long.

Except there is no "bullshit" about that. You went into some knee-jerk panic there, and it makes absolutely no fucking sense to do so right now. Unless the company is a lot less competent than I've been lead to believe. But then some of you guys are claiming that the game itself looks to be below par in most ways, so whatever. What a riot.


It doesn't make sense for you to repeat the same shit over and over again like your brain is overheated from all the semen you keep snorting every time you suck six dicks stacked like bricks in a row.

So basically, you've got nothing? I suppose that's the EB version of that.


Please tell me you're joking. I just post around 5 essays of shit backing my side of this argument, and your only argument is "We don't know what the cache is for". Don't tell me I've got nothing. Read my fucking posts again, shithead, you're the one with nothing. I give up, you senseless idiot.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: cool breeze on May 19, 2008, 02:10:31 AM
See, I don't know. So I'm not going to treat it like a DMC4 situation when quite a few capable developers have managed to avoid falling in that hole. This is developed specifically for the PS3, and it's my understanding that Kojima Productions is comprised of quite a few clever people. Naughty Dog managed to do pretty awesome things with only a brief cache install that felt more like an extra long load screen, which resulted in a complete streamlined and good looking game with no freaking load screens anyway. Is Naughty Dog really that much more accomplished than Kojima Productions? If they are not, it's hard to buy that the company wouldn't do something useful with the cache install. So yeah, guesswork, but it's about brilliant of a base as assuming right off the bat that it will be a useless install simply because 3rd party cross platform games have done less than amazing things with that HDD.

On that note, I'm defending fucking Kojima Productions, the developer of a franchise that I really, really do not like. Which is insane. God damn it.

Well, Uncharted is a very Linear game and MGS4 seems like it is going to somewhat open.  I don't think all games can be like Uncharted or God of War where the saves could be masked so easily.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 19, 2008, 02:15:04 AM
i wonder why mgs4 shares issues with cross-platform games, he wonders aloud ???
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 19, 2008, 02:18:51 AM
let's say you have a 60gb unit. let's say 50% of all games you buy have a 2-6gb install, 3.5 on average. if i buy 30 games -- and i have over 120 for the ps2 -- i have 3.5 x 15 = 52.5gb worth of installs, leaving very little room for demo/game downloads, game caches, and the occasional oddball game that wants to write a massive save. this is bullshit.

my pc has 500gb space. my pc also has convenient uninstall and backup features, and a defrag option.

lol looks like they spent way too much time cramming space on the disks and not the fucking HD. smh x 123.4GB
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 19, 2008, 02:23:52 AM
on 20 disks though lol

 Six disks (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10639835&postcount=48)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 02:53:24 AM
I got the 20GB PS3 because I'm a cheapskate. It's pretty much full after 3 installs. I had RR7 and FFXI installed and I had to remove RR7 when I bought HSG5. Still, not interested in MGS4 since I haven't played 2-3 anyway, but I'm pretty against the whole installation thing, esp. when all you get is normal/respectable loadtimes as a result. Half the time, the installations are just making up for BD deficits.

Yet some developers have somehow managed to work around these supposed deficiencies. I don't buy that argument at this point. Is Kojima beneath Naughty Dog on the scale here? Why are people expecting Kojima Productions to underperform? I understand that they are different games, but then that argument should probably be considered when you talk about what other developers have used the HDD for, vs what MGS4 is. Which is why I'm asking about load times and persistent game worlds. I'd assume that load times even for large areas would be negligible. Maybe that's an unreasonable expectation, but I'm not under the impression that this is a hack studio.

huh? you're going to have to break this down - i've frankly no idea what you are trying to say here.
Again, we've strayed. Even if it turns out that whatever funky feature it is , the install issue STILL reamins.

But if the install is actually proven to really benefit the game experience, then how does it warrant so much criticism? If it's a minor deal like DMC4, then sure, it's odd. But if it actually shows good usage of that HDD, is that worth the storage space it takes? Going into a bend over game patches, sure. But HDD usage doesn't actually have to be just a horrible waste of storage.

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: ferrarimanf355 on May 19, 2008, 02:57:15 AM
I plan on getting the biggest HDD for my PS3 when my rebate check comes in from the gov. The biggest notebook drive is 320 GB, right? Or is there something larger?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 02:58:40 AM
you keep mentioning the griping, but you seem to fail to see that even if it the cache does do something great, it still means that the same fundamental issue is there. we could stop griping , and of course you could kill the contrary stance that it's some amazing use of a cache too.

I would, but it's going to take a while to dismount this high horse.  :-[
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: trippingmartian on May 19, 2008, 03:08:56 AM
(http://www.joblo.com/newsimages1/samrobbie.jpg)
"Team Kojima, yo ass used to be beautiful."
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 03:19:25 AM
I plan on getting the biggest HDD for my PS3 when my rebate check comes in from the gov. The biggest notebook drive is 320 GB, right? Or is there something larger?

are you talking about the Economic Stimulus package? Don't be distinguished mentally-challenged, that's your tax money from next year. Save it.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 19, 2008, 03:25:38 AM
*insert long post here*
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 03:34:19 AM
Quote
But if the install is actually proven to really benefit the game experience, then how does it warrant so much criticism? If it's a minor deal like DMC4, then sure, it's odd. But if it actually shows good usage of that HDD, is that worth the storage space it takes? Going into a bend over game patches, sure. But HDD usage doesn't actually have to be just a horrible waste of storage.

well, basically we are at an impasse - i hope it is an amazing use of the cache, but we'll just have to wait and see as no one will know.

Then again, as i keep saying, -mandatory- installs are still a problem for stock users and the fact this uses it well just makes it easier to swallow the usage. It doesn't fix the need to upgrade a -console-.

Fair enough
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 03:59:51 AM
I'm not interested in defending MGS4, I just think that people might be underestimating Kojima Productions by assuming that it will be another DMC4-level effort. But we'll see, I'll try and practice what I preach for a change and shut up about it until we know more.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Ninja on May 19, 2008, 08:32:53 AM
Quote
I'm not interested in defending MGS4, I just think that people might be underestimating Kojima Productions by assuming that it will be another DMC4-level effort. But we'll see, I'll try and practice what I preach for a change and shut up about it until we know more.

just out of interest, have you played/seen MGO?

i know it shouldn't be taken as an indication of what is coming in the full game, but yeah... it's not great.


I think the Middle Eastern map looks good and that one is based on the single-player moreso than the others.

KojiPro are not the type to take a lazy route, if they want to force an install, I'm inclined to think that they believe it's for the best. We'll see.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 19, 2008, 09:43:27 AM
No, the hopefuls among us might, but the reasonable response to it is probably to save the griping for when it's obvious that it's actually something worth griping about. HDD caching doesn't have to be a generally useless thing, even if other developers have used it for less than amazing things. I don't know exactly how MGS4 is designed, but you guys may know more. What have the previews said about things like load times between areas, and persistent features? And yeah, I am dragging Naughty Dog in to this as the design of its game seems to argue against that for example Blu Ray here creates an even for very good developers insurmountable obstacle that requires a good deal of caching to make up for its weakness. And if there isn't an issue that is insurmountable to quality developers, why would it be assumed that Kojima Productions' usage of the HDD would be on the level of cross platform games?

And what if people are more mad about having 8 HDD-installing games per 8 months and not SPECIFICALLY about what this game is doing or not doing with it? How can this escape you?

I don't care what it's doing, the fact is that the PS3 is fuck-annoying and it only gets worse if you bought the budget (aka logical) version or if it's your primary console and you want all the latest releases.

There's a lot for a rational person to be irked about even before getting involved in this fairy tale debate about how MGS4 maybe could be redefining caching for the 21st century.

I got the 20GB PS3 because I'm a cheapskate. It's pretty much full after 3 installs. I had RR7 and FFXI installed and I had to remove RR7 when I bought HSG5. Still, not interested in MGS4 since I haven't played 2-3 anyway, but I'm pretty against the whole installation thing, esp. when all you get is normal/respectable loadtimes as a result. Half the time, the installations are just making up for BD deficits.

Bam.

AA seems to think this is GAF and he's responding to hollow fanboy talking points, when most people in this thread HAVE PS3s and are expressing THEIR OWN GRIEVANCES.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 09:49:19 AM
I got the 20GB PS3 because I'm a cheapskate. It's pretty much full after 3 installs. I had RR7 and FFXI installed and I had to remove RR7 when I bought HSG5. Still, not interested in MGS4 since I haven't played 2-3 anyway, but I'm pretty against the whole installation thing, esp. when all you get is normal/respectable loadtimes as a result. Half the time, the installations are just making up for BD deficits.

Bam.

AA seems to think this is GAF and he's responding to hollow fanboy talking points, when most people in this thread HAVE PS3s and are expressing THEIR OWN GRIEVANCES.

Seriously, I had a PS3 for a long time, I fucking loved it but in the end it just wasn't for me.

I wanted to kill myself during the DMC4 install. It didn't take the same amount of time to install as it did to make a sandwich. I left the house to go shopping and came back and it was still installing.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 19, 2008, 11:11:46 AM
this thread is all sorts of sad


usual suspects trolling and usual suspects defending.  yay?  i think not :'(
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 11:14:15 AM
Quote
I'm not interested in defending MGS4, I just think that people might be underestimating Kojima Productions by assuming that it will be another DMC4-level effort. But we'll see, I'll try and practice what I preach for a change and shut up about it until we know more.

just out of interest, have you played/seen MGO?

i know it shouldn't be taken as an indication of what is coming in the full game, but yeah... it's not great.

I played three rounds of the beta, thought it was crap. But as you say, I'm not taking this as an indication of what MGS4 will be like; for one, I don't trust Japanese developers with online anything. I don't know what they are going for with MGO, but the beta felt half-assed in every way, including visuals. And I've seen enough of MGS4 to know that it's a cut above MGO. Of course, MGO also indicates that the MGS gameplay hasn't become any more exciting as of late, but that's a different matter.

AA seems to think this is GAF and he's responding to hollow fanboy talking points, when most people in this thread HAVE PS3s and are expressing THEIR OWN GRIEVANCES.

Not really. I've been mostly responding the comments about this being a fucked up and unnecessary install of the DMC4 sort, when that's not even known yet. And I'm still not buying that it's just there to make up for supposed deficit, not when I've seen what other accomplished developers have managed to do. I understand that it sucks that you're running out of space and have to pick and chose, but then I still think that complaining about a lack of space when you went for the cheapest version of the system is a bit of a stretch. Especially when it's as easy to upgrade as it is.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 11:21:22 AM
Double post
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 11:30:26 AM
I found it odd that the original poster mentioned his interest in the Wii which actually has more serious storage issues at this point (in a slightly different way).  At least the PS3 offers faster IO and actual solutions to address the storage complaints while Wii users are completely stuck.

Quote
I'll go one further - i'll not die of shock if the 4 gig install is the entire game, with the BR simply providing media play back for cut scenes. The install cache will have nothing to do with the media played back, and that's the only area i'd expect the X360 to be compromised. The size of the game and the quality of the game itself wouldn't be touched.

Hell, need more space? compress the sound and video and stick it on two disks.
Why do you continue to insist that the game uses any sort of pre-recorded video?  The game relies almost 100% on realtime 3D cutscenes.  Audio data would indeed require some space, but it wouldn't be unreasonably big.  It is highly unlikely that the entire game fits within 4gb, I'd say.  You can't "comrpess" realtime 3D cutscenes and audio compression wouldn't buy a lot of space.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 19, 2008, 11:33:32 AM
 :-\ dark1x, mgs4 has last gen graphics, bad texture work, and its 1024x768, 30 fps, and it requires 4GB installsandwich, what does it have to do with Wii issues?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 11:40:55 AM
mgs4 has last gen graphics

And I'm the one getting shit in this thread? Get the fuck out of here.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MedievalManIII on May 19, 2008, 11:42:37 AM
At least MGS4 doesn't have bloom and sparks and whatever everywhere so you can't see whats going on.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 19, 2008, 11:44:27 AM
mgs4 has last gen graphics

And I'm the one getting shit in this thread? Get the fuck out of here.

I call it what I see it
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 11:46:07 AM
:-\ dark1x, mgs4 has last gen graphics, bad texture work, and its 1024x768, 30 fps, and it requires 4GB installsandwich, what does it have to do with Wii issues?
The original poster stated...

Quote
I am however looking at the Wii lately, it seems to have enough games to make it worthy of a purchase(bloom Blox pushed me over the edge).
I just found it odd that a thread designed to slam the PS3 for its storage issues would mention the Wii (which has more severe issues at this point).  The Wii has nothing to do with this issue, but I found it funny that it was mentioned when you consider what people are complaining about in this thread.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Pharmacy on May 19, 2008, 11:47:02 AM
mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 19, 2008, 11:47:40 AM
mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all


f'real real
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 11:49:36 AM
Quote
Can you really imgaine what it takes to fill 50 GBs? It takes huge-ass numbers of textures, not 3D data for movement, cutscenes or shaders. Even mocap takes little space next to a the textures on the object that is mocapped.
I honestly have no idea what it is that requires so much space.  It's just that DC has suggested several times that the game uses pre-rendered HD videos which is not true.

Of course, Japanese developers seem to have a real issue with space.  I still have no idea why Lost Odyssey shipped on 4 discs.  There are VERY few CG cutscenes, a limited amount of voice acting (much much less than something like Xenosaga, for instance), and fairly limited areas to explore.  There was no logical reason for its high space requirements, but there it was, four discs.  I'd assume MGS4 is similar.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Rman on May 19, 2008, 11:56:31 AM
Too much trolling.  I know there's a lot of 360 fans here but, man, it gets annoying sometimes.  MGS4 does not look like a last gen game at all.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: hyp on May 19, 2008, 11:59:20 AM
i still don't get why on earth anyone would defend mandatory installs. 

on that note, i was actually one of the 20gb owners that had to upgrade their shit because i filled up my hard drive.  12+ PSN games and a few mandatory installs was all that it took.  sony's going to have a clusterfuck to deal with on their support lines when the casuals start filling up their hdds with this mandatory garbage.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 19, 2008, 12:02:13 PM
Quote
Can you really imgaine what it takes to fill 50 GBs? It takes huge-ass numbers of textures, not 3D data for movement, cutscenes or shaders. Even mocap takes little space next to a the textures on the object that is mocapped.
I honestly have no idea what it is that requires so much space.  It's just that DC has suggested several times that the game uses pre-rendered HD videos which is not true.

Of course, Japanese developers seem to have a real issue with space.  I still have no idea why Lost Odyssey shipped on 4 discs.  There are VERY few CG cutscenes, a limited amount of voice acting (much much less than something like Xenosaga, for instance), and fairly limited areas to explore.  There was no logical reason for its high space requirements, but there it was, four discs.  I'd assume MGS4 is similar.
disc 3 and 4 were filled with a lot of fmvs, short fmvs but still....
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 19, 2008, 12:03:11 PM
Maybe MGS4 is like 400 hours long, asswipes
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 12:03:30 PM
Quote
I also don't know why exactly does it need that much. I guess we will all know after the game ships and people actualy beat it. This isn't a sandbox type of game, you don't need to have much redundant data in order for the streaming to go well.
Well, Sandbox games typically have lesser storage requirements due to the re-usage of data throughout the world.  Oblivion is a great example of this as its textures and meshes are re-used throughout the entire game.  A lengthy single player adventure with a large number of unique environments requires much more data.  MGS4 does seem to include a huge variety of environments and the space requirements can vary depending on how they were created and stored.

Quote
disc 3 and 4 were filled with a lot of fmvs, short fmvs but still....
Not really.  A limited number of FMVs and they were all short as you say.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Sho Nuff on May 19, 2008, 12:07:03 PM
It leaves me asking, if there's 4.7gb of cache on the HDD, what's coming off the blu-ray aside from audio
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 12:15:40 PM
It leaves me asking, if there's 4.7gb of cache on the HDD, what's coming off the blu-ray aside from audio

The original assets for all areas in the game? It all depends on what that cache is, doesn't it? It could just contain assets to aid in streaming data (the Blu Ray deficiency argument is popular here, so it seems as if that's the preferred view right now), or it could be used to for example track persistent data throughout the game. That's the whole point, that people are already assuming that it's going to be the least admirable effort and therefore a sour trade for precious storage space.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 19, 2008, 12:16:02 PM
there is at least 12 fucking fmvs in disc 3, and no i don't think fmvs are the reason for using 4 discs more like shitty japanese developers.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 12:24:20 PM
there is at least 12 fucking fmvs in disc 3, and no i don't think fmvs are the reason for using 4 discs more like shitty japanese developers.
I don't remember that many, but regardless, they were all so short that there isn't any point in arguing about it.

My point is, every game is going to have different storage requirements and sometimes it is the result of poor data management.  The PC versions of various UE3 games, for instance, require loads of space.  Turok requires ~14gb, Blacksite and Stranglehold over 10gb, and Gears of War just shy of it.  Why the hell would something like Turok require THAT much space (more than double that of the 360 version which reads entirely from a slower DVD)?  The MGS4 situation may be rather similar.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 19, 2008, 12:31:22 PM
there is at least 12 fucking fmvs in disc 3, and no i don't think fmvs are the reason for using 4 discs more like shitty japanese developers.
I don't remember that many, but regardless, they were all so short that there isn't any point in arguing about it.

My point is, every game is going to have different storage requirements and sometimes it is the result of poor data management.  The PC versions of various UE3 games, for instance, require loads of space.  Turok requires ~14gb, Blacksite and Stranglehold over 10gb, and Gears of War just shy of it.  Why the hell would something like Turok require THAT much space (more than double that of the 360 version which reads entirely from a slower DVD)?  The MGS4 situation may be rather similar.
isn't that because PC games have different set of textures packed in the game? so you could choose from Low to High Texture quality? and  maybe other things.  ???

since Borys is here, he can explain that to us.  :-[
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 12:32:52 PM
Not in those cases.  There's no reason I can see for something like Turok to more than double in size when it uses such a limited selection of textures in the first place.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 12:37:35 PM
Having seen Turok for PC, I'm not convinced it even shipped with a genuine high quality texture package.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: hyp on May 19, 2008, 12:38:40 PM
it didn't ship with gameplay either.  :piss turok
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 12:42:39 PM
For real. I saw some initial praise for the game on NeoGAF, and I couldn't relate, at all. It even had this bug annoying view bob that I hadn't seen in a "big" FPS since the late 90s.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 12:44:29 PM
Having seen Turok for PC, I'm not convinced it even shipped with a genuine high quality texture package.
Most console to PC ports do not ship with a set of textures higher resolution than what was found in the original game.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: hyp on May 19, 2008, 12:52:27 PM
For real. I saw some initial praise for the game on NeoGAF, and I couldn't relate, at all. It even had this bug annoying view bob that I hadn't seen in a "big" FPS since the late 90s.

neogaf would praise anything that came out of their favorite mods' bunghole.  just sayin'.   :-*
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 12:54:45 PM
For real. I saw some initial praise for the game on NeoGAF, and I couldn't relate, at all. It even had this bug annoying view bob that I hadn't seen in a "big" FPS since the late 90s.

neogaf would praise anything that came out of their favorite mods' bunghole.  just sayin'.   :-*

Well, I've got nothing against that particular mod, although I was disappointed that he didn't bother answering any of my questions about the game in the Turok demo thread. It's one thing to be irritated that your baby is being trolled, but I don't think questions like "is the view bob adjustable?" or "can you turn on human blood in the retail version?" fall into that category.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: demi on May 19, 2008, 01:11:58 PM
It's ok, it bombed, and everyone cheered
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 01:14:18 PM
It's ok, it bombed, and everyone cheered

I thought it sold disturbingly well, at least in Europe?

I don't really understand how you can fuck up an FPS formula that includes bow and arrow kills, and dinosaurs. It's like Rambo, but with dinosaurs! It sounds pretty idiot-proof to me. The lack of blood was a big turn-off for me, but I'm still not clear on whether or not that could be switched on/off in the retail game.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: hyp on May 19, 2008, 01:28:49 PM
it sold enough to keep said mod employed.  turok 2 here we come!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: fistfulofmetal on May 19, 2008, 02:05:20 PM
this thread is LOL

MGS4 = best game of the ever.
Title: Re: Gamershell: HGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Shogmaster on May 19, 2008, 03:13:46 PM
(http://i32.tinypic.com/28s98o4.jpg)

(http://i27.tinypic.com/290ssk0.jpg)

I had a deja vu of the RE4 PC pics. No joke. I was like "Holy crap, did Konami hire out a PC port to the same guys that did RE4 PC?" LOLZ
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 19, 2008, 03:18:02 PM
Shogmaster (http://www.forgotten-gamer.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/oas-xboxflag.gif)

about time you showed up.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 03:20:35 PM
At least it's got decent texture filtering
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Flannel Boy on May 19, 2008, 03:22:50 PM
mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all



This is a truism about every game, but it tends to be trotted out for games that are graphically disappointing. Nobody is reduced to saying that screenshots for crysis don't do the game justice and that the game needs to be seen in motion.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 03:26:24 PM
This is a truism about every game, but it tends to be trotted out for games that are graphically disappointing. Nobody is reduced to saying that screenshots for crysis don't do the game justice and that the game needs to be seen in motion.

Actually, that's been said quite a few times. It's not like it's impossible to produce trite looking Crysis shots, complete with dodgy texture work even on the highest currently available texture quality setting. Now, what's a little bit weird about MGS4 is that a lot of the shoddy pictures are official, Konami-published shots. But even that is not exactly rare.

Another thing that is very common to "trot out" these days is a comparison to Crysis. As if anything really compares favorably to Crysis.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Pharmacy on May 19, 2008, 03:29:31 PM
mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all



This is a truism about every game, but it tends to be trotted out for games that are graphically disappointing. Nobody is reduced to saying that screenshots for crysis don't do the game justice and that the game needs to be seen in motion.

how the fuck can you even use crysis in a graphics comparison? it'll always win

though saying that, crysis has some ugly textures in places

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 03:39:12 PM
Well, the last piece of MGS4 media I caught showed Snake here traversing a snowy environment. And that looked really fucking good. The footage I saw prior to that was the "Altair" footage which, again, looked damned good. Nowhere near flawless, of course, but the whole package looks good. I think you guys have your faces so close to the cornshoot that you're unable to observe that it's really a pretty damned sexy ass. Visual quality really isn't MGS4's big issue.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 03:40:19 PM
Yeah, MGS4 really looks lousy in some pics.  I thought MGO looked really nice while playing, but nothing spectacular.  I'm pretty disappointed by the visuals myself, but it's not a bad looking game.  I think we are looking at yet another case where a Japanese developer is unable to compete with Western technologies.

Quote
Uncharted at least has LIGHTING AND SHADOWING which is non-existant in those pics Shogmaster posted.
While that is true, the game DOES feature fully dynamic shadows for all objects and structures.  I'm not sure why those particular areas are so awful looking, but the game certainly has a fairly solid lighting/shadow engine in place.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 03:42:21 PM
Yeah, MGS4 really looks lousy in some pics.  I thought MGO looked really nice while playing, but nothing spectacular.  I'm pretty disappointed by the visuals myself, but it's not a bad looking game.  I think we are looking at yet another case where a Japanese developer is unable to compete with Western technologies.

Quote
Uncharted at least has LIGHTING AND SHADOWING which is non-existant in those pics Shogmaster posted.
While that is true, the game DOES feature fully dynamic shadows for all objects and structures.  I'm not sure why those particular areas are so awful looking, but the game certainly has a fairly solid lighting/shadow engine in place.

MGO was miserable to look at, and even more miserable to play. Still, the actual footage I've seen of MGS4 looks to be leagues ahead of MGO in terms of visual oomph, but it doesn't look like it's much fun to play. I tend to agree though, Japanese developers are generally being schooled by their western counterparts right now.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Flannel Boy on May 19, 2008, 04:19:35 PM
I was not directly comparing MGS4's graphics to Crysis'; I was contrasting how screenshots of the two games are treated. I was trying to show that if a game looks good, and we don't have to use Crysis, then people won't tell you how the screenshots don't do the game justice and that you should watch it in motion.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 19, 2008, 04:21:53 PM
MGO was miserable to look at, and even more miserable to play. Still, the actual footage I've seen of MGS4 looks to be leagues ahead of MGO in terms of visual oomph, but it doesn't look like it's much fun to play. I tend to agree though, Japanese developers are generally being schooled by their western counterparts right now.

You thought MGO was ugly?  I dunno, I really thought it looked pretty good overall.  Textures that seemed awful in screenshots actually looked pretty clean in person.  There was something about the visuals that I quite liked.  It was a very solid looking title, just not among the most technically accomplished.  From what I can tell, MGS4 itself looks quite a bit better (more detailed), so it should be pretty nice in the end.

I didn't much care for the game itself, however.  I didn't enjoy the MP in MGS3 and I felt about the same here.  That's not really of great concern, however, as I typically avoid multiplayer these days anyways.  Even in popular games like CoD4 I've barely touched the MP.  I simply don't care.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 19, 2008, 04:49:05 PM
I suppose it was clean, I just found the presentation brutally unappealing. And I like "clean", but this felt sterile and dusty. Which really goes hand in hand with the miserable gameplay experience. I'm not going to question that someone could find the game entertaining, but I really don't get it. Closet necrophiliacs, that's my bet.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 19, 2008, 07:14:35 PM
Why are people giving shog a ton of recognition (I love you shog, but) when I posted a comparison of Halo 3 and MGS4 earlier? The character models are almost the same level of quality.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 19, 2008, 07:27:29 PM
Awesome thread.

It's nice to see that my master plan to turn EB into Team Xbox JR has mostly been successful.

(http://www.forgotten-gamer.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/oas-xboxflag.gif)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Sho Nuff on May 19, 2008, 08:22:32 PM
MGO = A UT99 Mod called Land of Yellow Boxes
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: cool breeze on May 19, 2008, 08:48:47 PM
Quote
Why do you continue to insist that the game uses any sort of pre-recorded video?


because its the only way i can believe this game needed the full 50gig. ;)

(i have no idea, i have got it into my head it's using video - and yeah, it's probably not true)


The space is probably because of uncompressed audio.  While I don't doubt there will be videos on the disc, I don't think it will be any of the main cutscenes or anything like that.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 19, 2008, 09:15:13 PM
We haven't hit rock bottom yet!
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: cool breeze on May 19, 2008, 09:25:24 PM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?

Right.  MGS4 could easily be ported to the PC and turn out to be the best version.

Although it is all speculation.  I'm sure that as we get closer to the MGS4 release more information about what is on the disc will surface.  If I wanted to make a crazy guess right now, I would say that MGS4 includes two texture sets.  One is very high res that causes the game to be around 30 fps while there are less impressive textures, but the game will be able to run at 60 fps.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Shogmaster on May 20, 2008, 12:06:00 AM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?



It's got uncompressed audio tracks to fill the BR disc. 360 version (yawn) could easily be filled into 7GB by using XMA audio instead of uncompressed BS that 99.99% of people couldn't care less about or have the set up to discern the difference.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 20, 2008, 12:22:30 AM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?



It's got uncompressed audio tracks to fill the BR disc. 360 version (yawn) could easily be filled into 7GB by using XMA audio instead of uncompressed BS that 99.99% of people couldn't care less about or have the set up to discern the difference.

Through HDMI audio, you'd be wrong, but since most people use the composite audio, you're right.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Shogmaster on May 20, 2008, 12:28:24 AM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?



It's got uncompressed audio tracks to fill the BR disc. 360 version (yawn) could easily be filled into 7GB by using XMA audio instead of uncompressed BS that 99.99% of people couldn't care less about or have the set up to discern the difference.

Through HDMI audio, you'd be wrong, but since most people use the composite audio, you're right.

I'll bet HDMI to LCD TV's buily in speakers is majority's gaming set up. HDMI by itself don't guarantee shit for the end user's set up.

Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 20, 2008, 12:34:23 AM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?



It's got uncompressed audio tracks to fill the BR disc. 360 version (yawn) could easily be filled into 7GB by using XMA audio instead of uncompressed BS that 99.99% of people couldn't care less about or have the set up to discern the difference.

Through HDMI audio, you'd be wrong, but since most people use the composite audio, you're right.

I'll bet HDMI to LCD TV's buily in speakers is majority's gaming set up. HDMI by itself don't guarantee shit for the end user's set up.



That's not how HDMI audio works though. Through shitty two-channel TV audio, it's gonna sound like shit anyways. I'm agreeing with you.

If people had half a brain and knew how to set up a sound system, people could hear the difference between compressed and uncompressed audio easy as breathing, but since most people in the world, especially ones that would happily buy the royal cluster fuck MGS4 is sure to be, are complete idiots, they're not gonna know the difference anyways.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Shogmaster on May 20, 2008, 12:39:25 AM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?



It's got uncompressed audio tracks to fill the BR disc. 360 version (yawn) could easily be filled into 7GB by using XMA audio instead of uncompressed BS that 99.99% of people couldn't care less about or have the set up to discern the difference.

Through HDMI audio, you'd be wrong, but since most people use the composite audio, you're right.

I'll bet HDMI to LCD TV's buily in speakers is majority's gaming set up. HDMI by itself don't guarantee shit for the end user's set up.



That's not how HDMI audio works though. Through shitty two-channel TV audio, it's gonna sound like shit anyways. I'm agreeing with you.

If people had half a brain and knew how to set up a sound system, people could hear the difference between compressed and uncompressed audio easy as breathing, but since most people in the world, especially ones that would happily buy the royal cluster fuck MGS4 is sure to be, are complete idiots, they're not gonna know the difference anyways.

I know you are agreeing with me. I'm just saying that HDMI by itself ain't the whole picture.

Anyways, I doubt Kojima is doing this uncompressed audio BS for the fans. It's some kind of personal audio gear fetish he is fullfilling. Good for him I guess.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: brawndolicious on May 20, 2008, 03:28:50 AM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?

Right.  MGS4 could easily be ported to the PC and turn out to be the best version.

Although it is all speculation.  I'm sure that as we get closer to the MGS4 release more information about what is on the disc will surface.  If I wanted to make a crazy guess right now, I would say that MGS4 includes two texture sets.  One is very high res that causes the game to be around 30 fps while there are less impressive textures, but the game will be able to run at 60 fps.
Maybe for the PC version but if you have can't have a console game where the textures lose definition when there's a lot going on...well not without the gamer noticing.

I'm guessing that the extras could be like Resistence where they rewrote textures onto the disk to help with streaming.  There's probably also uncompressed audio but it's only in one language.  Most likely this game won't have any load times and have semi-open-ended levels so at least there's that.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: cool breeze on May 20, 2008, 03:36:33 AM
Maybe for the PC version but if you have can't have a console game where the textures lose definition when there's a lot going on...well not without the gamer noticing.

I meant as an option where you can choose between the two, kind of similar to what Bioshock does where you can have v sync on or off for a frame rate boost.  That would actually be pretty cool if when there is a lot of action, the textures managed to bump down in quality automatically to keep the speed up.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 20, 2008, 09:08:39 AM
so i'd assume if uncompressed audio is the main burn , and if there are no vids, then a port of this game would be straightforward right?

I see no reason why this couldn't be ported, but the question is, why does it matter?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 21, 2008, 04:35:40 PM
new shots:

(http://i27.tinypic.com/23h8zvc.jpg)
(http://i30.tinypic.com/1607tb5.jpg)
(http://i28.tinypic.com/2m7stir.jpg)
(http://i25.tinypic.com/mmu7p5.jpg)
(http://i29.tinypic.com/2dimvzb.jpg)
(http://i27.tinypic.com/33vjh5c.jpg)
(http://i27.tinypic.com/25jfli1.jpg)

http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/714/714044/imgs_1.html
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 21, 2008, 04:39:16 PM
^^
Sex :)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 21, 2008, 04:57:45 PM
Last-gen quality, right?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Raban on May 21, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
 :bow
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mr. Gundam on May 21, 2008, 06:02:05 PM
There are some yucky looking textures, but I still think that overall, it looks fantastic.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 21, 2008, 06:12:50 PM
cut-scenes, right?
:sp0rsk1
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 21, 2008, 06:20:29 PM
Game will look fine if it has the image quality of the screenshots above but we all know it won't. 
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mondain on May 21, 2008, 06:24:24 PM
these are such obvious bullshots with godly levels of cleanliness and anti-aliasing, why do people even get rolled by that stuff anymore

Christ, even a mundane consumer's PC with a Quad core, 4 gigs of RAM and the top of the line NVidia card couldn't run the game that well
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 21, 2008, 06:25:15 PM
Other than the perfect AA, I'm not seeing much difference between what's in these screens and what has been shown in-game. Maybe if some of you guys weren't so determined to focus on the worst looking parts of the worst looking screens, you'd notice that it's overall a pretty damned nice looking game.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 21, 2008, 06:55:59 PM
Other than the perfect AA, I'm not seeing much difference between what's in these screens and what has been shown in-game. Maybe if some of you guys weren't so determined to focus on the worst looking parts of the worst looking screens, you'd notice that it's overall a pretty damned nice looking game.

for once we agree. :-*
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MrSingh on May 21, 2008, 07:49:08 PM
That's supposed to be the best looking game this gen?

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

























 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: TakingBackSunday on May 21, 2008, 07:59:12 PM
I think you people expect too much from next-gen.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Sho Nuff on May 21, 2008, 08:42:01 PM
I like how they continue to replace every instance of the word STEALTH with SNEAKING
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 21, 2008, 09:27:26 PM
I hold my reservations about the image quality of those "screenshots". I think they are photochopped.

Although I haven't finished the game, I have played MGS4 on a 720p LCD and it looks nowhere near as nice as those pictures.

Just saying.

And I don't think anyone would've expected so much from "next-gen" consoles if Sony didn't come charging in and beating the "PLAY B3YOND, True HD, 1000x more powerful than your PC" drum in our faces. Only then did I expect to see such qualities delivered in next-gen gaming.

So far it's been one giant, massive, colossal disappointment.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: fistfulofmetal on May 21, 2008, 09:34:21 PM
That's supposed to be the best looking game this gen?


I think you're confused. The quote is "Best game this gen"
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 21, 2008, 09:39:52 PM
I hold my reservations about the image quality of those "screenshots". I think they are photochopped.

Although I haven't finished the game, I have played MGS4 on a 720p LCD and it looks nowhere near as nice as those pictures.

Just saying.

And I don't think anyone would've expected so much from "next-gen" consoles if Sony didn't come charging in and beating the "PLAY B3YOND, True HD, 1000x more powerful than your PC" drum in our faces. Only then did I expect to see such qualities delivered in next-gen gaming.

So far it's been one giant, massive, colossal disappointment.

Shocking revelations, here. So how was the game itself?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 21, 2008, 10:05:51 PM
Shocking revelations, here. So how was the game itself?

The game isn't half-bad, but then you're asking a guy who never finished MGS2 because he got stuck in one of the first levels and never bothered to go back. Plus, I'm a SC:CT fan.

Having said that, this game is definitely much better in terms of gameplay than my only other MGS benchmark, MGS2. (Oh, and I have the version for the original Xbox - what was it? Metal Gear Subservience or Someshite? I never played past the first hour or so.)

What I don't like about MGS4 (and is a common complaint I have with MGS in general) is that parts of the game are downright "gimmicky". I mean, there are parts where the attention to detail may be simply too much - to the point where it begins to interfere with real gameplay, because there are just so many non-interactive animations that need to be played out before you are back in the action again.

Don't get me wrong: the attention to detail is fantastic. At times you'll say, "wow, Kojima and Co. really put some thought into this". Then you realize that it's exactly this attention to detail that is cool to do once or twice, but even then you can only tell the same joke two or three times before the punchline no longer delivers.

At times it feels like for every major cut-scenes there are hundreds of mini cut-scenes, and half the time you are just waiting to jump back into the game again. If there were ever a game designed by a narcissist for his own pleasure, I'd say this is it.

I'll definitely buy it, though; this time I have a feeling I won't get stuck and won't be let down too much - I'm just waiting for the US version to be released (and available) where I live.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 21, 2008, 10:28:33 PM
Thanks! How are the controls?

(surely this is worth its own thread?)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 21, 2008, 11:39:12 PM
seriously, can you put all your impressions in a dedicated thread?  it's getting really close to release and this thread is terribly tainted
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Brehvolution on May 21, 2008, 11:41:54 PM
Shocking revelations, here. So how was the game itself?

The game isn't half-bad, but then you're asking a guy who never finished MGS2 because he got stuck in one of the first levels and never bothered to go back. Plus, I'm a SC:CT fan.

Having said that, this game is definitely much better in terms of gameplay than my only other MGS benchmark, MGS2. (Oh, and I have the version for the original Xbox - what was it? Metal Gear Subservience or Someshite? I never played past the first hour or so.)

What I don't like about MGS4 (and is a common complaint I have with MGS in general) is that parts of the game are downright "gimmicky". I mean, there are parts where the attention to detail may be simply too much - to the point where it begins to interfere with real gameplay, because there are just so many non-interactive animations that need to be played out before you are back in the action again.

Don't get me wrong: the attention to detail is fantastic. At times you'll say, "wow, Kojima and Co. really put some thought into this". Then you realize that it's exactly this attention to detail that is cool to do once or twice, but even then you can only tell the same joke two or three times before the punchline no longer delivers.

At times it feels like for every major cut-scenes there are hundreds of mini cut-scenes, and half the time you are just waiting to jump back into the game again. If there were ever a game designed by a narcissist for his own pleasure, I'd say this is it.

I'll definitely buy it, though; this time I have a feeling I won't get stuck and won't be let down too much - I'm just waiting for the US version to be released (and available) where I live.

I don't get it.. which one of you is jeckle and the other hyde? You say its hard because of the level of is "gimmicky"...then you say the level of detail is fantastic... I just don't follow.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 21, 2008, 11:45:54 PM
He actually elaborates on that if you would um, read it all.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 22, 2008, 12:13:01 AM
Zero Hero, what I meant is there is an amazing amount of detail, more so than the majority of games you will encounter. But this isn't always a good thing in my book.

Take Uncharted, for instance, and the clothes getting wet bit: that's great attention to detail, especially when you take into account only the clothing submerged actually gets wet. More importantly, you don't have to dry his pants afterwards because otherwise his crotch would develop a severe rash, from where you'd have to seek the aloe vera tree and manufacture a balm to soothe the itch. Because that would be taking away from the core gameplay.

In MGS4, I feel there are a number of those situations where you are taken away from the action. That's what I meant. Attention to detail is great, but you have to remember, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, and yada-yada-yada, that we are playing a game.

Imagine if you had to make sure Snake had to take a dump, and have to wipe his ass clean afterwards, otherwise Snake would walk pulling out his undies every 10 steps or so, because his butt was itchy. You would have to make sure you actually wiped his ass clean every time. Yes, this would be amazing attention to detail. Yes, it would be realistic as hell. Surely, though, after a few times looking at the same canned animations and the same routine time and again, it would get old fast. It would also take you away from the meat of the game, which is sneak, stealth, or whatever word-du-jour they are using to describe the gameplay now.

That's what I meant. I'm not hating on the game - far from it. It also looks to be a great game overall, and I will still buy it. But you have to take the good with the bad, and since I'm not in love with this, or any game, I simply don't own a pair of rose-tinted glasses to see the MGS world by.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 22, 2008, 12:15:41 AM
Cormacaroni, I won't say much because there are complaints about "tainting the thread" and such (sorry, mupepe), but the controls are tight. This is coming from an aged and jaded PC gamer more comfortable with WASD and mouse controls. It took me some getting used to at first, but afterwards it was no more difficult than adjusting to SC:CT on the gamepad. (I have SC:CT on the PC, but at one point decided to play it with my Saitek P2600 because I know the game was built for consoles in mind and I had to see what the tradeoffs were.)

mupepe, don't look at the spoiler. You may be disappointed.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
What I don't like, and this is the same problem with SC:CT, is the animations don't blend nicely when you do sudden turns, go from walk to run to walk, or lunge in a certain direction. You know, mess with the controls a bit. You can see the breakup in continuity. While SC:CT suffered from the same issues, it is a much older game, and I'd have thought by now devs would have conquered animation blending. Close, but not quite.

There is also this very floaty dead zone where if you move Snake he doesn't really move his feet, yet he turns in a pivot. I guess I'm being overly anal about this, but you asked my honest opinion. I'm being hard on MGS4 but you can see that even being a SC:CT fan, I find many issues with that game as well. I just call them as I see them.  :)
[close]
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 22, 2008, 12:24:31 AM
no no no no, i didn't mean that!  I meant this thread was tainted with fanboy nonsense and we need a new thread with your impressions! 

:bow crimsondynamics :bow2
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Brehvolution on May 22, 2008, 10:34:56 AM
Oh shit!! I have to remember not to post about games when I'm drunk. I always read things wrong which leads to misunderstandings. :-[ :-[ :-[

Sorry about that guys. :-[
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 22, 2008, 10:47:41 AM
Oh shit!! I have to remember not to post about games when I'm drunk. I always read things wrong which leads to misunderstandings. :-[ :-[ :-[

Sorry about that guys. :-[
:-* :-* :-*

NP, babe.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 22, 2008, 12:23:28 PM
A mediocre engine in skilled hands will look better than a great engine in less capable hands.

Someone with the gift of screen capturing can make a great difference. Not to mention the patience you need to utilize all the tricks you can accomplish when you have complete access to the engine. The tools may be cumbersome to use since they are not designed for end consumers, but spending some time setting up the scene, controlling the lighting and camera, and adding or removing pieces can make a great difference in the final output.

You can do all this with screenshots, because unlike video, you only need to render one frame.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: fistfulofmetal on May 22, 2008, 01:11:03 PM


Uh-oh?

 ::)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 23, 2008, 01:37:05 AM
Haha, 4GB Haze install.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 01:38:39 AM
...

admiral, did you just wake up?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 23, 2008, 08:24:04 AM
Quote
As Metal Gear Solid 4's release date draws near, more and more info about the game's expected to spill out. Some of it from people who have played through the thing already. People who sat through a lotta cutscenes. Some of them up to 90-minutes long. Nintety. Minutes. Sure, you can pause them, and skip them, but ninety minutes? Bring popcorn.
http://kotaku.com/392923/mgs4-has-90+minute-cutscenes

Quote
We know the Metal Gear Solid series is famous for its long cut-scenes, but this tops everything! Metal Gear Solid 4, the latest instalment in Hideo Kojima's seminal stealth series, has cut-scenes (note the plural) that approach the 90 minutes mark.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=189543

wtf  :dizzy
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 08:30:38 AM
Quote
As Metal Gear Solid 4's release date draws near, more and more info about the game's expected to spill out. Some of it from people who have played through the thing already. People who sat through a lotta cutscenes. Some of them up to 90-minutes long. Nintety. Minutes. Sure, you can pause them, and skip them, but ninety minutes? Bring popcorn.
http://kotaku.com/392923/mgs4-has-90+minute-cutscenes

Quote
We know the Metal Gear Solid series is famous for its long cut-scenes, but this tops everything! Metal Gear Solid 4, the latest instalment in Hideo Kojima's seminal stealth series, has cut-scenes (note the plural) that approach the 90 minutes mark.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=189543

wtf  :dizzy

only possible with the power of blu ray.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 23, 2008, 08:51:39 AM
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284523 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284523)

Quote
dcharlie: okay, it's on the BBFC site with a list of cut scene lengths.

Looks closer to 54 m than 545m - possible typo or error ?

or possibly not fully inclusive?

I dread to think how long it would take to translate NINE HOURS of cutscenes, so i have to eer on the side of it -not- having 9 hours of cutscenes.

Makes sense. 9 hours is insane.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 23, 2008, 08:52:31 AM
If there really are 90 minutes scenes (which I doubt), that wouldn't really bother me at all, but I know that would not sit well with a lot of people.  I thought MGS3 was a perfect balance of cutscenes and gameplay (for the most part).  I suppose there's simply more ground to cover thist ime around, however.

only possible with the power of blu ray.
Can't we all just get along?  There's no reason to pit the 360 and PS3 against one another when everyone should unite against the Wii!

Quote
Makes sense. 9 hours is insane.
That was an old topic.  The answer seems to be that those 9 hours consist of choice clips selected by Konami for this group to view and rate.
That same site listed MGS3 as around half of that, if I recall.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 08:56:13 AM
it was a joke darkx.

still 90 min cutscene? and not just one cutscene but many? i doubt this.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: fistfulofmetal on May 23, 2008, 10:01:44 AM
90 minute cut scene

 :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper :hyper


I eagerly await my chance to put the controller down and bask in it's glory.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 23, 2008, 10:06:04 AM
I honestly wouldn't mind.  Is it bad that I enjoy playing MGS games with a movie like attitude?  Watch an awesome cutscene, do some awesome action to get to the next one.  I like it that way. 

And to be honest, I could see that crazy bastard doing a one or two 90 minute ones.  That'd be a hell of a way to end the game for me.  I don't think it's going to bother MGS fans, but it won't make any new fans if true.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 23, 2008, 10:10:58 AM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something).  There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Ninja on May 23, 2008, 10:12:50 AM
Bring on 90-minute cut-scenes. Konwing Kojima it'll be fucking epic. On subsequent playthroughs, I can just skip it if I don'y feel like watching it again. What really matters is that the gameplay sections in MGS4 look to be longer than previous games in the series too. It's just more of everything. If the total of cut-scenes in the game was 90 minutes, I would be disappointed, that's not enough.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 23, 2008, 10:15:51 AM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something).  There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P
whatdog.gif
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 10:31:12 AM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something). There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P

explain papangus.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Trent Dole on May 23, 2008, 10:32:14 AM
:piss MGS4 :piss2
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 23, 2008, 10:42:27 AM
not if people don't know about it :o
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: DJ_Tet on May 23, 2008, 10:49:38 AM
As long as they save my game before the cutscene I'm fine with it.  I love the plot scenes in MGS and seeing what amounts to an anime in the middle/end of my game is just fine.  Just warn me in case I've got to be somewhere (and even better, give us chapters in the 90 min so we can skip around.)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 23, 2008, 12:23:32 PM
FFX had long ass cutscenes and Americans loved it so I don't see why it's a problem. 

The bigger problem with MGS is that each game spends so much time on the story yet most people have no idea WTF is going on. 
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Crushed on May 23, 2008, 12:33:16 PM
I really don't think there will be 90-minute cutscenes. Ryan (and I think some others like TTP on GAF) have already said that the longest one is closer to 60 minutes, and it's probably the final cutscene.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 23, 2008, 01:12:32 PM
why the fuck do you want bad polygon puppet theatre
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 23, 2008, 01:15:45 PM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something).  There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P
whatdog.gif
I was a bit off.  According to Bungie, there are 41 minutes of cutscenes (total) in Halo 3.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 01:17:13 PM
i thought you meant a one hour cutscene (not total runtime)  :lol
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 23, 2008, 01:36:59 PM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something).  There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P
whatdog.gif
I was a bit off.  According to Bungie, there are 41 minutes of cutscenes (total) in Halo 3.
yeah, most of them are 1 to 5 minutes long, some of them are just seconds long.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mr. Gundam on May 23, 2008, 02:37:15 PM
The intro to MGS4 is supposed to be really unique, I wonder if it's the rumored 54 minute movie?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 23, 2008, 02:46:44 PM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something).  There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P
whatdog.gif
I was a bit off.  According to Bungie, there are 41 minutes of cutscenes (total) in Halo 3.
yeah, most of them are 1 to 5 minutes long, some of them are just seconds long.

Guys, good job on spotting Dark1X's Sfud so promptly. 
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: dark1x on May 23, 2008, 03:28:36 PM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something).  There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P
whatdog.gif
I was a bit off.  According to Bungie, there are 41 minutes of cutscenes (total) in Halo 3.
yeah, most of them are 1 to 5 minutes long, some of them are just seconds long.

Guys, good job on spotting Dark1X's Sfud so promptly. 
What the fuck?  Sfud?  I was correcting someone on the notion that MGS4 would only contain 90 minutes of cutscenes total by pointing out the total length of the cutscenes in Halo 3.  I only used Halo 3 as an example due to the fact that Bungie specifically commented on the total length of the cutscenes.  Whether or not you believe lengthy cutscenes are a negative inclusion matters not in this case as I was only using Halo 3 as a point of reference.  Only someone with an agenda would view such posts as "fud".
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 23, 2008, 03:32:26 PM
What the fuck?  Sfud?  I was correcting someone on the notion that MGS4 would only contain 90 minutes of cutscenes total by pointing out the total length of the cutscenes in Halo 3.  Only someone with an agenda would view such posts as "fud".

Don't worry about it, it'd seem as if Smooth Groove has some primal urge that pushes him to post at least something of the system war sort in each thread that he frequents.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Brehvolution on May 23, 2008, 04:16:08 PM
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g294/clgarcia0331/2sajhbq.gif)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 23, 2008, 04:31:30 PM
I really don't think there will be 90-minute cutscenes. Ryan (and I think some others like TTP on GAF) have already said that the longest one is closer to 60 minutes, and it's probably the final cutscene.
What a fucking world.

No, there's no 90 minute cutscene, don't be ridiculous.

The longest one's about 60 minutes.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 23, 2008, 04:36:08 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked by this though. Isn't this what MGS tards want, long ass cinematics to present the cornball story?
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 23, 2008, 04:37:20 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked by this though. Isn't this what MGS tards want, long ass cinematics to present the cornball story?
do not call me a tard.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:-*
[close]
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 23, 2008, 04:42:07 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked by this though. Isn't this what MGS tards want, long ass cinematics to present the cornball story?
It's all about scale, I suppose.

Did we even have 10 minute cutscenes back in the day? Did Final Fantasy 6 ever take over for more than 10 minutes? Maybe. But say, half an hour? No way (at least IIRC.)

Even MGS1, I don't remember a single cutscene clocking in at over 10 minutes. Maybe a couple just barely, like the Otacon Metal Gear explanation.

I mean, there's a line. I don't know exactly where the line is, but I do know that 60 minutes of listening to David Hayter talk to Colonel Campbell is way the fuck over on the wrong side.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 23, 2008, 04:44:05 PM
i dunno, but i had to listen to an assload of codec in mgs1 :'(
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 23, 2008, 04:49:48 PM
i dunno, but i had to listen to an assload of codec in mgs1 :'(
That is true, but codec is slightly different because you can skip the spoken dialog and just read. I always do this, and while I hate the long codec conversations too, at least I can bang them out in a minute or two. Cutscenes are either watch, or skip, which sucks if you're interested in the story, but not a 10 minute speech on nuclear proliferation.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Darunia on May 23, 2008, 04:51:15 PM
i get a headache from reading just about every gaf mgs thread nowadays. Right now the mgs obsessed are discussing whether a guy (Matt Leone) who hasn't played much of the series before 4 has the right to be on the review crew. the way these people treat that franchise, it's scary. 'skip, can you tell us how much he's played of the trilogy?'  :lol

oh and cutscenes in 1 were WAY longer than I remembered. I took the psone version to a friend who wanted to catch up and while the fat engineer was explaining metal gear I asked myself 'christ how long has this been going on?'

maybe I'm getting more impatient as I grow older but I do remember being more tolerant on cutscenes 3 or 4 years ago. Now that you see more and more games delivering a decent narrative without cutscenes... I dunno it's getting more archaic
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 23, 2008, 04:52:45 PM
Nobody would even bat an eye if there was a total of 90 minutes of cutscenes in MGS4. It's the norm in japanese games. But ONE 90 minute cutscene boggles the mind.

I hope that is a typo because sitting through a 1.5 hour long cutscene = WTF.
There's going to be more than 90 minutes of cutscenes, of that there is no doubt (I believe Halo 3 was noted as having almost an hour or something).  There are going to be a LOT of cutscenes.  I simply doubt that there will be multiple 90 minute scenes.  I wouldn't mind if the ending were 90 minutes, though.  :P
whatdog.gif
I was a bit off.  According to Bungie, there are 41 minutes of cutscenes (total) in Halo 3.
yeah, most of them are 1 to 5 minutes long, some of them are just seconds long.

Guys, good job on spotting Dark1X's Sfud so promptly. 
What the fuck?  Sfud?  I was correcting someone on the notion that MGS4 would only contain 90 minutes of cutscenes total by pointing out the total length of the cutscenes in Halo 3.  I only used Halo 3 as an example due to the fact that Bungie specifically commented on the total length of the cutscenes.  Whether or not you believe lengthy cutscenes are a negative inclusion matters not in this case as I was only using Halo 3 as a point of reference.  Only someone with an agenda would view such posts as "fud".

You actually thought I was being serious? 

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)



Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 23, 2008, 04:54:47 PM
i get a headache from reading just about every gaf mgs thread nowadays. Right now the mgs obsessed are discussing whether a guy (Matt Leone) who hasn't played much of the series before 4 has the right to be on the review crew. the way these people treat that franchise, it's scary.
MGS threads there are unreadable. The game cannot be discussed, only fellated, and even then, if you don't fellate it right, you will probably get yelled at and possibly banned.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Darunia on May 23, 2008, 04:56:06 PM
yep. even stating that Twin Snakes was anything less than an abortion will get you a certain visit from the ever present ssx

'Twin Snakes sucked because they messed with Snake's characterization and portrayed him like a super hero'
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 23, 2008, 05:07:12 PM
i get a headache from reading just about every gaf mgs thread nowadays. Right now the mgs obsessed are discussing whether a guy (Matt Leone) who hasn't played much of the series before 4 has the right to be on the review crew. the way these people treat that franchise, it's scary. 'skip, can you tell us how much he's played of the trilogy?'  :lol

I think the set-up they are doing seems remarkably sensible for being EGM. A guy who has played lots of MGS, and a dude who hasn't. That sounds like it should make for a good combined review, right? I guess they are concerned that the game is going to be "underrated", but that's a bit strange. If someone who isn't well versed in MGS myth and lore can or can not get into the game, that's actually valuable information and actually serves well as a buyer's guides. Which is what these reviews should, first and foremost, be about. Not ego pieces, not fanboy reports, but buyer's guides.

yep. even stating that Twin Snakes was anything less than an abortion will get you a certain visit from the ever present ssx

'Twin Snakes sucked because they messed with Snake's characterization and portrayed him like a super hero'

Whereas the reality of course is that Twin Snakes sucked because it was a Metal Gear Solid "game".
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Darunia on May 23, 2008, 05:14:42 PM
Quote
I think the set-up they are doing seems remarkably sensible for being EGM. A guy who has played lots of MGS, and a dude who hasn't. That sounds like it should make for a good combined review, right? I guess they are concerned that the game is going to be "underrated", but that's a bit strange. If someone who isn't well versed in MGS myth and lore can or can not get into the game, that's actually valuable information and actually serves well as a buyer's guides. Which is what these reviews should, first and foremost, be about. Not ego pieces, not fanboy reports, but buyer's guides.

Exactly. In an ideal scenario they'd put someone like Shawn Elliott on for third review, I would love to see how that'd get the blood boiling. But yeah a fresh take from someone who hasn't completely dug into the series is great because you get a more grounded opinion from someone who takes the gameplay at face value. There are probably people who will buy this and will never have played an MGS game before, so a good idea is to mirror that in the review.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 07:19:54 PM
i get a headache from reading just about every gaf mgs thread nowadays. Right now the mgs obsessed are discussing whether a guy (Matt Leone) who hasn't played much of the series before 4 has the right to be on the review crew. the way these people treat that franchise, it's scary.
MGS threads there are unreadable. The game cannot be discussed, only fellated, and even then, if you don't fellate it right, you will probably get yelled at and possibly banned.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11276397&postcount=2

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Bildi on May 23, 2008, 07:21:02 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would be shocked by this though. Isn't this what MGS tards want, long ass cinematics to present the cornball story?

:heartbeat

I want to have your baby.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 07:34:50 PM
should have asked about the superior 360

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Kyle on May 23, 2008, 08:24:17 PM
should have asked about the superior 360

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 23, 2008, 08:29:19 PM
Wingus  :hump Dingus
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 23, 2008, 08:39:27 PM
should have asked about the superior 360

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

Kyle, McDragon and Smooth Groove, the 3 M$kateers

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/oas-xboxflag.gif)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 23, 2008, 08:40:56 PM
i get a headache from reading just about every gaf mgs thread nowadays. Right now the mgs obsessed are discussing whether a guy (Matt Leone) who hasn't played much of the series before 4 has the right to be on the review crew. the way these people treat that franchise, it's scary.
MGS threads there are unreadable. The game cannot be discussed, only fellated, and even then, if you don't fellate it right, you will probably get yelled at and possibly banned.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11276397&postcount=2

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
That shit is amazing. You play it too. Respect.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Bildi on May 23, 2008, 08:43:38 PM
should have asked about the superior 360

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

Can I be D’artagnan?  I realise I'll just be hanging around like a third (fourth?) wheel, but it's the only way I'm going to get laid.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MCD on May 23, 2008, 08:44:51 PM
MGStards went crazy over that comment.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MrSingh on May 23, 2008, 09:46:15 PM
Forgot to ask Ryan how it is to work on the shit fuck console with the ass fuck GPU! DOH!

(too busy eating  MarkMcD's delicious handmade burgers and having pics of myself taken with Ricciardi's copy of uncharted BD ROM sandwiched between my asscheeks.. ssshhhh don't tell him I did that)
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Draft on May 23, 2008, 11:09:53 PM
MGStards went crazy over that comment.
:tbslol I didn't even notice, holy shit
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: duckman2000 on May 23, 2008, 11:16:24 PM
It never takes much
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: MrSingh on May 23, 2008, 11:30:45 PM
lol - i forgot all about that.



You were too busy schmoozing with Kenny-G.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 23, 2008, 11:38:01 PM
should have asked about the superior 360

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)
(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

(http://opa-ages.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/HippoLOLSmall.gif)

Can I be D’artagnan?  I realise I'll just be hanging around like a third (fourth?) wheel, but it's the only way I'm going to get laid.

Sure, as long as you pledge allegiance and undying loyalty to the One Xbox Nation.  We might have to find a new Emperor though. 
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: bork on May 23, 2008, 11:52:36 PM
the xfag emperor is just eatin sandwiches , i need to recharge my batteries for the long summer/winter of hate.

It's a marathon, you can't just spit the bile all the time, you need to let there be calm so when the lol-cano erupts, then it's more effective.



You lost that title a long time ago.   :'(

BEHOLD, THY NEW EMPEROR MR SINGH
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 24, 2008, 10:39:33 PM
I just read about the 90 minute cut scene....

:lol :lol :lol :lol :rofl
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 24, 2008, 10:45:34 PM
according to a few people who have actually played the game, none of the cutscenes come close to 90 minutes.  people on gaf say the longest ~60 minutes which is the ending.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: FancyFeast on May 24, 2008, 11:02:38 PM
according to a few people who have actually played the game, none of the cutscenes come close to 90 minutes.  people on gaf say the longest ~60 minutes which is the ending.

Oh that sounds reasonable.....

God I hate this game.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: Mupepe on May 24, 2008, 11:04:30 PM
according to a few people who have actually played the game, none of the cutscenes come close to 90 minutes.  people on gaf say the longest ~60 minutes which is the ending.

Oh that sounds reasonable.....

God I hate this game.
shouldn't be that surprising to you really.
Title: Re: Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install
Post by: FancyFeast on May 25, 2008, 07:59:50 PM
Has this been Gaffed yet?  this is like 2 weeks old...  :lol