THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 06:57:13 PM

Title: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 06:57:13 PM: (http://i26.tinypic.com/qrn9tu.jpg)
(http://i28.tinypic.com/120kunn.jpg)
(http://i29.tinypic.com/5myh6a.jpg)

Quote
The famous babysitting academy will provide immediate fun to all family members, thanks to short gameplay sessions.

BABIES PARTY proposes a variety of 30 mini-games that can be played head-to-head or cooperatively among your family or with your friends. Live a great adventure if you play alone or have fun with your friends, up to 4 players.

Wii Remote™ gestures are intuitive, making the game easy to pick up and play.
You will just have to play indoor & outdoor mini-games following the typical day of a baby and his/her baby-sitter, and prove that you are the best babysitter, alone or with your friends.

Key Features

• More than 30 babies mini-games:
Enjoy exciting and diverse games inspired by babies daily life:
 Take care of them…
 Help them progress with memory games, puzzles, coloring and cutting up activities…
 Entertain them through hilarious mini-games

• Solo or multiplayer modes for every desire:
Choose which character you want to embody:
 As a baby sitter, you’ll have to take care alone of these adorable little monsters!
 As a baby, you can play up to 4 players with your friends, and do what was always forbidden.

• Wiimote based easy gameplay allows immediate fun:
Thanks to intuitive motions and use of the Wii Balance Board, the game is easy to pick-up and play. You will be able to enjoy instantaneously any game.

• A great story to live:
Choose the families you want to baby sit for and go to your neighbours’ houses investigate.
As a member of a babysitting academy, you will have to do your best to be graduate and to become the best Babysitter.

• Many unlockables:
Unlock a huge range of more than 50 cute and funny outfits and customize all the babies you take care of. YAY!

Consumer benefits

 More than 30 diverse mini-games to enjoy immediate fun.

 Share familial moments by going through the thrill and joy a babysitter can have.

 Challenge your friends to be a most ‘irritating’ baby than you.

 Do everything you have always dreamt to in your childhood.

 Make your baby the most beautiful & skilful one of the whole Academy!

:pissUbisoft:piss2
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Joe Molotov on May 28, 2008, 07:11:02 PM: It's Evilbore: The Game!
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: demi on May 28, 2008, 07:11:25 PM: lap it up fatty wiitards, fund the games that matter :bow
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 07:14:55 PM: :bow :bow Ubisoft :bow2 :bow2
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 28, 2008, 07:18:12 PM: but but they're targeting hardcore gamers this year
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 07:29:05 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:15:39 PM
In buying Wii Fit and Wii Play Nintendo fans have shown publishers a remarkable proclivity towards banality and budget gaming crap, hence the fact that the announced titles are all leaning in that direction. I can't believe how stupid you would have to be to suppose that buying mini game collections, mascot fanservice and ports en masse was going to end up delivering AAA titles to your console. Get into real gaming fatties.
But they didn't buy those games en masse. Ubisoft has even said that all their shovelware bombs on Wii, they just don't give a shit.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 07:35:21 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:33:36 PM
I'm talking about the shitty games Nintendo is tricking it's (admittedly stupid) core audience into thinking coincides with their taste. Did you think that would produce anything besides the same shit from other publishers?

Absolutely nothing in that post made any coherent sense.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Joe Molotov on May 28, 2008, 07:37:00 PM: :lol You can taste the bitter tears and emo rage just radiating from Cohen's posts. You guys are fun. :lol Don't worry man, real games aren't going anywhere. Well, at least not until Beyond Good and Evil 2 sells less than 50k copies, and Ubisoft files for bankruptcy.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: demi on May 28, 2008, 07:38:46 PM: Quote from: Joe Molotov on May 28, 2008, 07:37:00 PM
Don't worry man, real games aren't going anywhere.

As long as you keep buying :bow

God bless the fatties of America
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Joe Molotov on May 28, 2008, 07:38:49 PM: This stuff has been coming out on the DS for years, it's not a big deal.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: disgruntled_jojo on May 28, 2008, 07:39:30 PM: Ellen will give away 10k copies of this on her show. You know what, fuck it. Ellen and her housewife hordes can have the fucking Wii.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 07:44:24 PM: Quote from: Crushed
Absolutely nothing in that post made any coherent sense.

I'm talking about the shitty games Nintendo tricked it is core audience (that admits openly that it is stupid) into thinking that they liked, like ports, party games, and mascot fanservice, all things which fans did not like before, which I suppose means it isn't fanservice at all, but it was. Did you think that [subject missing] would produce anything besides totally different shovelware crap from other publishers?
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 07:55:27 PM: ah, the rich reward of cognitive dissonance
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: WrikaWrek on May 28, 2008, 07:57:57 PM: Every time i hear a Wii gamer tell me about how the Wii is the shit, and how it's a machine for hardcore gamers, someone announces shit like this.

I have a wii. Boom Blox is cool. But jesus christ.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 07:59:05 PM: i guarantee you dogz will slaughter the sales of no more heroes across the lifetime of the console
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:03:29 PM: and unsurprisngly, bg&e2 would probably sell a quarter of what it would on the 360 were it on the wii-- even if its 60k versus 15k -- but thankfully ubisoft knows where the gamers are at
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:06:07 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:58:01 PM
But Prole, Carnival Games did 1.5 million, why doesn't the Wii get RE5?
RE4 GC sold 1.7 million.
RE4Wii sold 1.25 million.
RE:UC sold 1.1 million.

There's clearly a fanbase.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: demi on May 28, 2008, 08:09:20 PM: Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:06:07 PM
Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:58:01 PM
But Prole, Carnival Games did 1.5 million, why doesn't the Wii get RE5?
RE4 GC sold 1.7 million.
RE4Wii sold 1.25 million.
RE:UC sold 1.1 million.

There's clearly a fanbase.

And they deserve nothing but the best - like a port of Resident Evil Zero to compliment their port of Resident Evil 4
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:11:25 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 08:08:53 PM
A fanbase willing to buy ports and recycled assets, which is what the publishers are looking at.

So they release shovelware games that aren't ports or don't have recycled assets, that bomb horribly but cost so little to develop that they still make some money anyway.

...
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Jabberwocky on May 28, 2008, 08:13:30 PM: Who needs PoP or BG&E?

The really party's on the Wii!
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:15:02 PM: they don't bomb horribly, though. they just don't have front-loaded sales. bombs are shit like dewy's adventure, not babiez -- this game here will outsell your favorite third-party wii game across the lifetime of the system, if not the next christmas season.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:19:25 PM: what i love is when gaf ninthings reject their own demographic.

"pfft, at least nintendo is trying to appeal to someone other than the stupid 16-34 male demographic!"

"really, and what demographic are you"

"uh, i'm special"

"yeah?"

"yeah, i don't like halo"
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:20:27 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 08:17:44 PM
Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 08:15:02 PM
they don't bomb horribly, though. they just don't have front-loaded sales. bombs are shit like dewy's adventure, not babiez -- this game here will outsell your favorite third-party wii game across the lifetime of the system, if not the next christmas season.
:american
People are so obsessed with front loaded npd sales that they forget that different types of games sell, well, differently.

they'd understand this if they had kids. i'm not the only household on my street with catz 2! (on the other hand, i'm also the only one with mana-khemia :'()
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Fragamemnon on May 28, 2008, 08:20:45 PM: Yeah, and it's not just little money-each one of those games could be the next big casual hit (like Carnival Games), a cash cow release that you can start increasing profit outlooks for years on.

I had someone on another forum tell me how the Wii would have been the perfect audience for Civilization Revolutions-a game that will be niche even on the hardcore gaming platforms. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:22:22 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 08:15:02 PM
they don't bomb horribly, though. they just don't have front-loaded sales. bombs are shit like dewy's adventure, not babiez -- this game here will outsell your favorite third-party wii game across the lifetime of the system, if not the next christmas season.

No seriously, we're talking sales in the hundreds and low thousands. That's not an exaggeration. And they'll be gone by the time the next version comes out next year. They're not advertised at all, they sit on the bottom shelves, and they never make more copies or shipments. It's shovelware.

If it's a port or recycles assets, that's one thing. Games have always had versions and ports released on different systems, and it's usually been to the benefit of gaming by giving developers experience and providing new twists on titles.

But this shit isn't even passable. It's like edutainment PC games you'd see in a drug store. At least those games are from some shithole company in Wisconsin or Slovenia that you've never heard of before, and the requirements are for Windows 95. But this is fucking Ubisoft.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:23:06 PM: frag, was that dave "delusional" long
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: MrSingh on May 28, 2008, 08:24:43 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:15:39 PM
Get into real gaming fatties.

Greater truth has never been spoken.

All of my Wii owning friends are fat.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:25:26 PM: dogz and babiez fuckin' sell well -- they just don't chart massively on npd. however, they pull a couple hundred to a thousand EVERY MONTH ad infinitum. catz and catz 2 ds have sold hundreds of thousands despite never cresting npd.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: demi on May 28, 2008, 08:25:43 PM: Quote from: MrSingh on May 28, 2008, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:15:39 PM
Get into real gaming fatties.

All of my Wii owning friends are fat.

pics please
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:29:26 PM: catz and catz 2 aren't that badly designed, anyhow. they're actually a little "deeper" than nintendo dogs, despite the weaker production values.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:32:08 PM: Quote from: MrSingh on May 28, 2008, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:15:39 PM
Get into real gaming fatties.

Greater truth has never been spoken.

All of my Wii owning friends are fat.

drohne once accused me of "cannibalizing" the fans of this hobby by trying to draw a specific hierarchy within it (and he's right -- nerds ranking other nerds is pretty sad), but i'll say it again regardless: there is nothing lower in this hobby than a nintendo fanboy, and they're made all the lower by hitching their pride to ellen's bandwagon.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:34:07 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 08:24:05 PM
Also Crushed: Engine building is a big reason for shovelware early in a console cycle. But Dogz and Babiez will sell, that I guarantee you.

I understand that. But then Ubi doesn't even use those early games. At least they were nice enough at first to release mediocre, but conventional, games, like Red Steel. That actually sold over a million copies; true, launch hype had to do with it, but it was also due to a lot of advertising and exposure.

But then they started ported every last-gen game, like Far Cry and Blazing Angels and PoP: Two Thrones, they could get their hands on. Okay, but at least they'll eventually start releasing original Wii games in the same conventional vein once they run out, right? Those games probably sold okay-ish, despite only a little publicity and promotion.

But WAIT! Now that they've run out of last-gen games... they're going to release their least-successful and lowest-budget titles exclusively for the Wii.

It's totally illogical. Why do they start out with games that sell well, then continue to move in the opposite direction despite getting worse and worse results? ??? ??? ???

PS: My friends got me a copy of Catz 2 for PC as a joke once. I played about two seconds before quitting.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: MrSingh on May 28, 2008, 08:34:40 PM: :bow :bow professor prole :bow2 :bow2
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: BobFromPikeCreek on May 28, 2008, 08:36:20 PM: A collection of smaller games. It's brilliant!
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:37:05 PM: Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:34:07 PM
PS: My friends got me a copy of Catz 2 for PC as a joke once. I played about two seconds before quitting.

because that game, like the wii in general, is NOT FOR YOU. buy a 360, or a pc. products for 16-34 year old males.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: WrikaWrek on May 28, 2008, 08:46:15 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 08:44:29 PM
At least the Wii is still less embarrassing than the ps3.

(http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008/4/46apr16-thong-prob.jpg)
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:47:01 PM: really. the wii simply isn't designed for our market, and really shouldn't even be discussed on gaming forums followed by predominantly 16-34 year old males.

the ps3, though, is just embarrassing. hell, the 360 ain't much better, and pc gaming is dead. gaming sucks!
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:48:05 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 08:37:05 PM
Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:34:07 PM
PS: My friends got me a copy of Catz 2 for PC as a joke once. I played about two seconds before quitting.

because that game, like the wii in general, is NOT FOR YOU. buy a 360, or a pc. products for 16-34 year old males.

I buy them. I also buy them on my Wii.

I'm just saying, Ubisoft's approach is like... is like if New Line decided one day that their entire DVD release list is going to be bargain-bin mid-90s movies found in a Wal-Mart, while The Hobbit goes exclusively to LaserDisc.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: WrikaWrek on May 28, 2008, 08:50:29 PM: Ubisoft developers just don't give a shit about the Wii man.

I mean seriously, what dev actually wants to dev on the Wii, given the choice to dev on 360/Ps3?
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:51:13 PM: no, it's like one day new line decided it was only going to make family-friendly animated features and romcoms on dvd, and push the big budget action stuff on blu-ray for the aficionadoes -- at the point where blu-ray penetration is sustainable unto itself, of course. it doesn't make perfect sense, but if the romcoms can fund the good stuff for the folks who actually care about the medium, so much the better!

now sell your wii, taco, or stick to the real talk forum

only fans of gaming here
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 08:54:26 PM: Quote from: WrikaWrek on May 28, 2008, 08:50:29 PM
Ubisoft developers just don't give a shit about the Wii man.

I mean seriously, what dev actually wants to dev on the Wii, given the choice to dev on 360/Ps3?

i have yet to talk to a single game developer who is enthusiastic to work on the wii

"bobobobobobo" says the ninthing, "they are only sad 18-34 year-old males who make games i hate"

"if not them, then who made all the games everyone in the hobby loved the last five generations" you ask his morbid obese-edness

"i only played mario, metroid, and zelda" he admits
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:17:21 PM: Prole I think you spend more time discussing why Nintendo sucks then ... uhh your "real games"
I purchased it because I wanted games that didnt revolve around "guy holding weapon kills enemies" design. I wanted more focus on neglected genres and maybe the lack of convential controls would make developers think of new applications. I finally did get that in the form of boom blox but the genre representation is admitley weak. However theres no reason why sports(golf, bowling, etc), shmups, puzzle, srpgs, high budget 2d platformers, rail action games, racers, rhythm, pinball, etc cant be done on a single wiimote. And I can think of a few interesting projects announced so far that fit that criteria. Certain genres suffer but personally its that you vs. baddies vs spazz cam genre that Ive had my fill of.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 09:21:49 PM: why should i discuss the games i like? i like 'em, and that's all there is to it
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 09:22:35 PM: What is an Ubisoft game? A miserable little pile of minigames!
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 09:24:11 PM: there is more to the 360 library (and even the ps3 library) than shooting games. in fact, all the genres you mentioned are BETTER represented on the 360/ps3 except maybe the presumed "nintendo fanservice" genre
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Joe Molotov on May 28, 2008, 09:27:50 PM: Quote from: WrikaWrek on May 28, 2008, 08:50:29 PM
I mean seriously, what dev actually wants to dev on the Wii, given the choice to dev on 360/Ps3?

Steven Spielberg.

George Lucas, on the other hand, would choose the 360/PS3 every single time, for the same reason that certain gamers do. Because the games can look shinier and more plasticy.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 09:28:58 PM: steven spielberg isn't a dev. we're talking about code jockeys, not over-the-hill populist product sponsors.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 09:32:25 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 09:29:22 PM
Steven Spielberg has 2 games on next-gen platforms. Boom-Blox was meant to fund those.

I think we all know what the REAL truth is here.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The two next gen games will pay for the addition of costly "fun-shaders" that are heavily used in Boom Blox.
[close]
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 28, 2008, 09:34:06 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 08:47:01 PM
gaming sucks!

or does it? :shh
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 09:35:47 PM: OH GOD I HATE U

YOU PULL DOWN MY PC PANTS

YOU PULL OUT GAMING COCK

AND THEN YOU LEAVE ME STANDING THERE, ERECT AND NEEDY :'(
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:36:35 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:24:11 PM
there is more to the 360 library (and even the ps3 library) than shooting games. in fact, all the genres you mentioned are BETTER represented on the 360/ps3 except maybe the presumed "nintendo fanservice" genre

1. 360 is expensive and breaks all the time. Ill spare you the anecdote.
2. PS3... nope, still flacid
3. I dont necessarily mean shooters. Ever since... forever game design is you control avatar through environment with the left side of the pad and use the right side for actions to kill enemies. It was fun. Its still fun but less so. Ive been getting into the fringe genres alot more lately. Ive discovered that puzzle, rhythm, and esoteric stuff like warioware is exactly what suits my tastes since they usually concentrate on gameplay and notsomuch mediocre story telling. And when I have a yearning for virtual homicide I can play the occassional offering that comes along.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:38:20 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:21:49 PM
why should i discuss the games i like? i like 'em, and that's all there is to it

Do you go around irl only expressing cynical sentiments?
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 09:39:33 PM: Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:21:49 PM
why should i discuss the games i like? i like 'em, and that's all there is to it

Do you go around irl only expressing cynical sentiments?

absolutely
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:41:41 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 09:29:22 PM
Steven Spielberg has 2 games on next-gen platforms. Boom-Blox was meant to fund those.
Like anyone should feel like that devalues it. Its original and fun and I dont have to hook up empty plastic to play it.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 28, 2008, 09:41:45 PM: Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:21:49 PM
why should i discuss the games i like? i like 'em, and that's all there is to it

Do you go around irl only expressing cynical sentiments?

No, not at all.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
some of his sentiments are racist
[close]
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: MCD on May 28, 2008, 09:42:59 PM: gentlemen, behold:

http://wii.ign.com/dor/objects/14254709/imagine-party-babyz/videos/BabyzPartyFootage.html
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:44:46 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:39:33 PM
Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:21:49 PM
why should i discuss the games i like? i like 'em, and that's all there is to it

Do you go around irl only expressing cynical sentiments?

absolutely

How the hell did you get laid?
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 09:45:26 PM: well this thread turned out well
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 10:10:47 PM: Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:44:46 PM
Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:39:33 PM
Quote from: EmCeeGrammar on May 28, 2008, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:21:49 PM
why should i discuss the games i like? i like 'em, and that's all there is to it

Do you go around irl only expressing cynical sentiments?

absolutely

How the hell did you get laid?

women like assholes, duh

don't you read gaf
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: WrikaWrek on May 28, 2008, 10:17:57 PM: Well, maybe if Madworld is successful, things change.

Nintendo still has Day of Disaster in the making too. Things can still change for the better. On the more serious game side.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Trent Dole on May 28, 2008, 10:18:31 PM: Quote from: McDragon on May 28, 2008, 09:42:59 PM
gentlemen, behold:

http://wii.ign.com/dor/objects/14254709/imagine-party-babyz/videos/BabyzPartyFootage.html
Screw smash brawl, this is the real game of forever. :lol Also Geo Wars Galaxies retails for $29 now, if you have a Wii and don't own this game you fucking suck. :punch
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Van Cruncheon on May 28, 2008, 10:21:39 PM: :bow :bow geo wars galaxies :bow2 :bow2

best game on the wii by far
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: tiesto on May 28, 2008, 10:30:59 PM: Quote from: Fragamemnon on May 28, 2008, 08:20:45 PM
Yeah, and it's not just little money-each one of those games could be the next big casual hit (like Carnival Games), a cash cow release that you can start increasing profit outlooks for years on.

I had someone on another forum tell me how the Wii would have been the perfect audience for Civilization Revolutions-a game that will be niche even on the hardcore gaming platforms. Ridiculous.

I thought the Civilization games sold pretty well and had a diverse, non-typical fanbase? I know plenty of people that doesn't fit into the 'hardcore gamer' demographic, more like they are casual gamers, that own at least one of the prior Civilization games.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 28, 2008, 10:35:14 PM: Alright jarosh time to edit a gif.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/Mr_XYZ/wiigiveaway.gif)

Instead of the Wii/Wii Fit we need to see some Baby Party.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: tiesto on May 28, 2008, 10:37:19 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 09:21:49 PM
why should i discuss the games i like? i like 'em, and that's all there is to it

Because I want to hear the nitty gritty of the algorithms used to calculate spell damage and cumulative effects in the latest Nippon Ichi SRPG! (and I'm not being sarcastic... I actually wouldn't mind hearing about this :P)
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 28, 2008, 11:05:15 PM: Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 08:11:25 PM
Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 08:08:53 PM
A fanbase willing to buy ports and recycled assets, which is what the publishers are looking at.

So they release shovelware games that aren't ports or don't have recycled assets, that bomb horribly but cost so little to develop that they still make some money anyway.

...

Well, that's what's happening! This ship has sailed dude. I was giving the Wii the benefit of the doubt in summer 2007 but those days are over.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 28, 2008, 11:12:56 PM: Does Wii have anything in the future worth looking forward to? I mean I honestly can't think of one thing on the system that I'd want to play or would be anxiously anticipating.

I'm serious. Help a brother out. What the hell is coming out on Wii besides mini games and smile trainers?
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: MCD on May 28, 2008, 11:18:12 PM: i hope there is another fire emblem planned for the wii.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:18:45 PM: Quote from: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 28, 2008, 11:12:56 PM
Does Wii have anything in the future worth looking forward to? I mean I honestly can't think of one thing on the system that I'd want to play or would be anxiously anticipating.

I'm serious. Help a brother out. What the hell is coming out on Wii besides mini games and smile trainers?
Little King's Story
MadWorld
Wario Land
Fatal Frame Wii
Sim City Creator
FFCC: Crystal Bearers
Major Minor's Majestic March (from Matsuura and Greenblat)
Tales of Symphonia 2
Samba de Amigo
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Kirby

That's all I can think off. Some sketchy stuff that might turn out blah, but it's not as bad as it seems.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 11:21:47 PM: Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:18:45 PM
Quote from: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 28, 2008, 11:12:56 PM
Does Wii have anything in the future worth looking forward to? I mean I honestly can't think of one thing on the system that I'd want to play or would be anxiously anticipating.

I'm serious. Help a brother out. What the hell is coming out on Wii besides mini games and smile trainers?
Little King's Story
MadWorld
Wario Land
Fatal Frame Wii
Sim City Creator
FFCC: Crystal Bearers
Major Minor's Majestic March (from Matsuura and Greenblat)
Tales of Symphonia 2
Samba de Amigo
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Kirby

That's all I can think off. Some sketchy stuff that might turn out blah, but it's not as bad as it seems.

Also:

Monster Hunter 3
Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility
Sam and Max Season 1
Monster Lab
Deadly Creatures
Whatever games Nintendo is working but hasn't announced yet
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 28, 2008, 11:23:38 PM: Quote from: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 11:21:47 PM
Of course, half of those will turn out to be mediocre at best.

Did you see Haze? :lol
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Tristam on May 28, 2008, 11:26:15 PM: Quote from: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 28, 2008, 11:12:56 PM
Does Wii have anything in the future worth looking forward to? I mean I honestly can't think of one thing on the system that I'd want to play or would be anxiously anticipating.

I'm serious. Help a brother out. What the hell is coming out on Wii besides mini games and smile trainers?

MadWorld and a new Zelda (if there is one!), although I'm strangely turned off by MadWorld's ultraviolence. Hopefully the next Zelda isn't as poor as Twilight Princess or Phantom Hourglass.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:28:35 PM: Quote from: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 11:21:47 PM
Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:18:45 PM
Quote from: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 28, 2008, 11:12:56 PM
Does Wii have anything in the future worth looking forward to? I mean I honestly can't think of one thing on the system that I'd want to play or would be anxiously anticipating.

I'm serious. Help a brother out. What the hell is coming out on Wii besides mini games and smile trainers?
Little King's Story
MadWorld
Wario Land
Fatal Frame Wii
Sim City Creator
FFCC: Crystal Bearers
Major Minor's Majestic March (from Matsuura and Greenblat)
Tales of Symphonia 2
Samba de Amigo
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Kirby

That's all I can think off. Some sketchy stuff that might turn out blah, but it's not as bad as it seems.

Also:

Monster Hunter 3
Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility
Sam and Max Season 1
Monster Lab
Deadly Creatures
Whatever games Nintendo is working but hasn't announced yet

Oh yeah, MH3.

I wasn't going to list Monster Lab or Deadly Creatures until we see more. They could be meh. Same with Skate It.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 28, 2008, 11:30:09 PM: Quote from: Professor Prole on May 28, 2008, 08:32:08 PM
there is nothing lower in this hobby than a nintendo fanboy

Dating simulator fans?
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 28, 2008, 11:37:09 PM: hahaha

I will say this: I'll totally play Carnival games when I rebuy a Wii at $99 sometime in the future. I just like carnival-themed stuff. If the game had the balls to put sideshow freaks in it, I'd rebuy a Wii tonight just to play it.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 11:42:49 PM: Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:28:35 PM
Quote from: Great Rumbler on May 28, 2008, 11:21:47 PM
Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:18:45 PM
Quote from: Hitler Stole My Potato on May 28, 2008, 11:12:56 PM
Does Wii have anything in the future worth looking forward to? I mean I honestly can't think of one thing on the system that I'd want to play or would be anxiously anticipating.

I'm serious. Help a brother out. What the hell is coming out on Wii besides mini games and smile trainers?
Little King's Story
MadWorld
Wario Land
Fatal Frame Wii
Sim City Creator
FFCC: Crystal Bearers
Major Minor's Majestic March (from Matsuura and Greenblat)
Tales of Symphonia 2
Samba de Amigo
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Kirby

That's all I can think off. Some sketchy stuff that might turn out blah, but it's not as bad as it seems.

Also:

Monster Hunter 3
Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility
Sam and Max Season 1
Monster Lab
Deadly Creatures
Whatever games Nintendo is working but hasn't announced yet

Oh yeah, MH3.

I wasn't going to list Monster Lab or Deadly Creatures until we see more. They could be meh. Same with Skate It.

They're games that I've got my eyes one, but, yeah, that could easily turn out mediocre.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Tieno on May 29, 2008, 04:16:20 AM: As much as the Wii is touted as enabling these new experiences it also closes itself off from some others. Yeah, same ports did well, but everyone keeps saying how Wiisports is this generation's defining game, how Wiiplay is one of the best selling games and how Wiifit is going to take over the world. These are cheap games to make and make a lot of money. Ubisoft isn't looking at RE port, but at those games. They want to get that cheap succes too and because it's cheap they can fling shit at the wall as long as they can and hope something sticks. The PS360 has a different audience.
As much as Nintendo fans are getting off on the fact that the Wii is going in new directions and drilling in new markets, 'traditional games' like BG&E, PoP or Splinter Cell with tacked on waggle aren't part of that.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Third on May 29, 2008, 04:27:46 AM: I don't even understand why Nintendo fans are so happy with all the success the Wii is having...

The Wii had enough time to prove its formula. I really think it's the worst console ever.

Sony and MS are getting quality software at least.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: tiesto on May 29, 2008, 08:33:18 AM: Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:28:35 PM
I wasn't going to list Monster Lab or Deadly Creatures until we see more. They could be meh. Same with Skate It.

Man, Skate It with Balance Board has some serious potential... but then again, this is EA we're talking about, and probably a third-rate team of them too...
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: TakingBackSunday on May 29, 2008, 09:25:37 AM: Quote from: tiesto on May 29, 2008, 08:33:18 AM
Quote from: Crushed on May 28, 2008, 11:28:35 PM
I wasn't going to list Monster Lab or Deadly Creatures until we see more. They could be meh. Same with Skate It.

Man, Skate It with Balance Board has some serious potential... but then again, this is EA we're talking about, and probably a third-rate team of them too...

Yeah, I wouldn't get too hopeful. It's not even made by the same skate team.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: crimsondynamics on May 29, 2008, 09:59:36 AM: Look at Ubisoft's best-selling series. It has nothing to do with Sam Fisher, banished Persian princes or special ops soldiers. It's Rayman.

Second best? Petz!

I hate to say this, but these companies are in it to make money - they aren't non-profits. Why are the PC charts dominated by The Sims Ad Nauseum and WoW this and that? Because that's what sells. EA knows this, and that's why it is the publishing juggernaut it is today.

You can bet your farm that had Microsoft and Sony had known this generation would've panned out the way it has, the 360 and PS3 would have been radically different machines. Why is Microsoft even entertaining the idea of having Wii-like controllers this late into the game?

Fact of the matter is, these companies couldn't give a rat's ass about our gaming proclivities if you belong to the minority, and that's what we are: the minority who would prefer not to play Babies Party. But given how Petz has sold, and given how Ubisoft has to answer not to us, but to their shareholders, this is the type of tripe they have to come out with if they want their stock to continue rising.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 29, 2008, 10:50:38 AM: you guys suck. these games are for children, and are featured on a children's game console. outside of drinky none of us are apart of the "dora the explorer demographic" that this game is clearly targeted at.

want real games? buy a real console. why waste your time complaining about kids stuff
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Third on May 29, 2008, 11:06:47 AM: Quote from: Oscar the Grouch on May 29, 2008, 09:41:29 AM
Quote from: First on May 29, 2008, 04:27:46 AM
I don't even understand why Nintendo fans are so happy with all the success the Wii is having...

The Wii had enough time to prove its formula. I really think it's the worst console ever.

Sony and MS are getting quality software at least.

I'm not sure if it's the worst console ever, but it is easily, without question, hands-down the worst market-leading console of all-time. I can' t wait til shit goes back to normal next-gen. Nintendo provides the greatest good to the industry in second or third place, not first. And Sony certainly adds far more as a first-place than a second or third place.

IMO the Wii is the worst main console ever. Waggle bullshit over good hardware?

Screw that shit. Even developers want to take the industry further, that's why they're going with PS360.

Nintendo is like the only company that's benefiting from Wii's success. Not you, or me. It's not like there's a flood of good games coming out for it...

I'm really interested in Wii's successor and how it'll do. I don't think soccermoms will be buying it again.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: hyp on May 29, 2008, 12:13:22 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 28, 2008, 07:15:39 PM
In buying Wii Fit and Wii Play Nintendo fans have shown publishers a remarkable proclivity towards banality and budget gaming crap, hence the fact that the announced titles are all leaning in that direction. I can't believe how stupid you would have to be to suppose that buying mini game collections, mascot fanservice and ports en masse was going to end up delivering AAA titles to your console. Get into real gaming fatties.

:bow :bow :bow

missed you cohen :-*
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Oblivion on May 29, 2008, 07:27:16 PM: I don't know, Wii seems at the very least as good as Gamecube from a games standpoint anyway (which isn't saying much, I know). My biggest grievance with it aside from the Waggle is the hardware power.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Tristam on May 29, 2008, 07:33:25 PM: Don't care so much about hardware power. Waggle is probably the biggest mistake because it simply isn't universally applicable -- it simply doesn't work PERIOD with some genres. Second and third biggest mistakes, respectively, are the God-awful online service and God-awful storage solutions. Hardware power is the fourth biggest mistake.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 29, 2008, 08:10:50 PM: Quote from: Genghis Cohen on May 29, 2008, 07:35:35 PM
The Wii controller works with any genre, in fact it works better, paradigm, lazy devs etc.

It would work better if developers didn't try to shoehorn motion control into ports and existing basic game designs or use it just for the sake of using it.

Boom Blox is a great example of doing it right.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 29, 2008, 08:16:49 PM: I don't see why the Wii remote and nunchuk couldn't be adapted to just about every genre.

Not every existing game in every genre, but I don't see why not. What genre can't it do?
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Tristam on May 29, 2008, 11:23:28 PM: Quote from: AdmiralViscen on May 29, 2008, 08:16:49 PM
I don't see why the Wii remote and nunchuk couldn't be adapted to just about every genre.

Not every existing game in every genre, but I don't see why not. What genre can't it do?

It's not at all feasible for fighting games or many games that require many buttons that are easy to reach. Hell, it wouldn't work in a lot of games that use a second analog stick for purposes other than moving the camera (God Hand, for instance).
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Jabberwocky on May 29, 2008, 11:30:02 PM: Oh snap, I just remembered the comment Ubi said a long time ago about making low-budget games on the Wii in order to fund their bigger PS360 projects.

Ubisoft is making kittenz and babiez for the very purpose of making bigger games like BGE2 and PoP for the rival systems. :lol
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 29, 2008, 11:34:27 PM: Quote from: Nitro on May 29, 2008, 11:30:02 PM
Oh snap, I just remembered the comment Ubi said a long time ago about making low-budget games on the Wii in order to fund their bigger PS360 projects.

Ubisoft is making kittenz and babiez for the very purpose of making bigger games like BGE2 and PoP for the rival systems. :lol

But Ubisoft was complaining just a few weeks ago that their Wii games weren't selling very well!
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Jabberwocky on May 29, 2008, 11:36:58 PM: Quote from: Great Rumbler on May 29, 2008, 11:34:27 PM
Quote from: Nitro on May 29, 2008, 11:30:02 PM
Oh snap, I just remembered the comment Ubi said a long time ago about making low-budget games on the Wii in order to fund their bigger PS360 projects.

Ubisoft is making kittenz and babiez for the very purpose of making bigger games like BGE2 and PoP for the rival systems. :lol

But Ubisoft was complaining just a few weeks ago that their Wii games weren't selling very well!

Solution: pump out more of the same shit!
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 30, 2008, 10:31:00 AM: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 30, 2008, 11:29:28 AM: Quote from: Tristam on May 29, 2008, 11:23:28 PM
Quote from: AdmiralViscen on May 29, 2008, 08:16:49 PM
I don't see why the Wii remote and nunchuk couldn't be adapted to just about every genre.

Not every existing game in every genre, but I don't see why not. What genre can't it do?

It's not at all feasible for fighting games or many games that require many buttons that are easy to reach. Hell, it wouldn't work in a lot of games that use a second analog stick for purposes other than moving the camera (God Hand, for instance).

Doesn't God Hand use right stick for dodge like God of War? Simple flicks of the remote could do that fine.

Fighting games is a fair point, but people who actually play those are going to buy an arcade stick for any console since the Saturn.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Tristam on May 30, 2008, 02:10:46 PM: Quote from: AdmiralViscen on May 30, 2008, 11:29:28 AM
Quote from: Tristam on May 29, 2008, 11:23:28 PM
Quote from: AdmiralViscen on May 29, 2008, 08:16:49 PM
I don't see why the Wii remote and nunchuk couldn't be adapted to just about every genre.

Not every existing game in every genre, but I don't see why not. What genre can't it do?

It's not at all feasible for fighting games or many games that require many buttons that are easy to reach. Hell, it wouldn't work in a lot of games that use a second analog stick for purposes other than moving the camera (God Hand, for instance).

Doesn't God Hand use right stick for dodge like God of War? Simple flicks of the remote could do that fine.

Fighting games is a fair point, but people who actually play those are going to buy an arcade stick for any console since the Saturn.

God Hand's dodge mechanics work WAY too fast for simple flicks of the remote. I won't go into details, but I've played the game backwards, forwards, and sideways, and I'll tell you that playing with the remote and nunchuk would simply be impossible.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 30, 2008, 02:19:27 PM: Anywho, what I said was

Not every existing game in every genre, but I don't see why not. What genre can't it do?

It can certainly do action games, even if it can't do a straight port of that one.
Title: Re: ANOTHER UBI WII EXCLUSIVE: BABIES PARTY
Post by: Tristam on May 30, 2008, 02:33:26 PM: Quote from: AdmiralViscen on May 30, 2008, 02:19:27 PM
Anywho, what I said was

Not every existing game in every genre, but I don't see why not. What genre can't it do?

It can certainly do action games, even if it can't do a straight port of that one.

Ah, that's true. Perhaps I shouldn't have said genres -- moreso games that require 5+ easy-to-reach face buttons, which happens to be a requirement for most fighting games (including Smash Bros.). Of course, devs do try to find solutions -- typically through waggle -- but it isn't always optimal. Now if a game doesn't require so many buttons (or at least buttons that you need to press in quick combination), like Mario or Metroid, the control scheme often works great.