THE BORE
General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: Van Cruncheon on August 17, 2008, 02:41:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Blow
Kael, the PS3 is basically a strong counterexample to everything you were arguing earlier, so it's weird that you bring it up.
As someone who has done PS3 programming, I think that yes, Sony (and IBM and Toshiba) threw a bunch of money into the toilet, because it's a bad processor design for complex applications (it's probably fine if you want to do DSP though). The single in-order PPU is not fast enough to keep the SPUs fed, and the SPUs have no access to memory, which makes programming for them extremely painful. If you're writing a PS3 game, it is very, very hard to keep the SPUs active doing useful work -- what developers do is they end up expanding other relatively useless things in order to fill SPU time ("Hey, we can have a lot more particles!!!")
PS3 games are pretty much always bottlenecked by the speed of the main game code running on the main core, and of feeding the SPUs and reading back the results.
As a programmer, I would much rather have had a single out-of-order Centrino notebook processor, or something like that. I guarantee you that if that were the chip in the PS3 instead of Cell, games would run faster, they would be released with shorter development cycles, and they would have fewer bugs.
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?p=1395510#post1395510
:gloomy cell budget cpu :gloomy
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Why the hell did Sony bet the farm on cell? A Geforce 8 is just as capable at video processing and exponentialy better than the Cell at graphics, physics, folding and basically anything.
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Carmack saying the PS3 is technically inefficient means a lot. Blow saying the PS3 is technically inefficient doesn't mean shit. But it is fine, we already have a large number of capable devs talking about how messy it is to work on the PS3.
Why the hell did Sony bet the farm on cell? A Geforce 8 is just as capable at video processing and exponentialy better than the Cell at graphics, physics, folding and basically anything.
They probably thought it would make sense to allocate various parts to specific tasks or something.
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blow's a sharp fuckin' programmer. he's done a lot of work in parallelization, especially in cluster computing. braid was a vanity piece, not a tech demo.
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man, and i remember when i got flamed on gaf for sayin' the cell was roughly as performant as a t2xxx class centrino dual-core. bitches were tryin' to front like the ps3 hardware could stack up to q6600 + 8800gtx. VINDICATED!
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he's still a dickhead
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so 're you, but i'd still let you put your sin inside me
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Nvidia just released CUDA software so that Gefoce 8 and above GPUs can fold. I bet just we few PC gamers here can beat GAF's whole SDF team at folding.
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I'm a nice guy
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blow's a sharp fuckin' programmer.
maybe in his next game that will counterbalance his extremely dull writing
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how many cells are required to power 16 hours of pretentious twattery
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lol his last name is blow
what's this guy done, actually?
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Blow is the king shit at the Indie Game Jam, which rocks your socks
I have also seen him do backflips onto a stage at GDC
Can you do backflips? Then STFU
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blow's a sharp fuckin' programmer.
maybe in his next game that will counterbalance his extremely dull writing
Makes me wonder: If Braid were released on the PS3, would the fans of the equally shitty games Ico and SotC be all over it?
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lol his last name is blow
what's this guy done, actually?
Made a glossed up flash game and tried to pass it off as "art".
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i dunno why braid gets the 'flash game' line -- its art doesn't look at all vectory -- in fact it's really lush and layered
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the music destroys any flash or wii game too. utterly fantastic
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This game makes me feel smart even though I'm not
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Why couldnt anyone else other than Blow make Braid... I'd be glad to be on your side
Oh Blow, why must you be such an asswipe
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the music destroys any flash or wii game too. utterly fantastic
Very true. The music in Braid is actually really well chosen and fits the pieces of the game they play in.
i dunno why braid gets the 'flash game' line -- its art doesn't look at all vectory -- in fact it's really lush and layered
Despite liking the game quite a bit, I still do think of it as a flash game with a bigger budget. I usually liken obvious gimmicky game mechanics to flash games, and Braid is like 4 gimmicks in one. And outside of the actual characters, the game does look quite good; the backgrounds are very lush and colorful in a wet way (if that make sense), but the actual characters themselves look awful.
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blow's a sharp fuckin' programmer.
maybe in his next game that will counterbalance his extremely dull writing
Makes me wonder: If Braid were released on the PS3, would the fans of the equally shitty games Ico and SotC be all over it?
I think the answer to that should be obvious.
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Jonathan Blow:"Everyone knows the PS3 was a mistake."
:bow
Blow>3rd rate programmers that post at GAF
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the music destroys any flash or wii game too. utterly fantastic
grab it all on itunes through the iMix
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Is the Itune store better for videogame music than Zune marketplace?
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please stow the "indie game developers are better than most people" bullshit and focus on dissing the PS3 plz
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Makes me wonder: If Braid were released on the PS3, would the fans of the equally shitty games Ico and SotC be all over it?
smh
Oh TVC. Ico and SOTC are fucking great and totally one of a kind experiences. Nothing really like either of them out there.
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i could never get into sotc long enough to hold a credible opinion on it, but i can think of a few comparable experiences to ico: smashing my testicles with a tack hammer, getting raped by a grizzly, and inviting john wayne gacy to a barbecue come to mind
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i like sotc since the main idea behind it is fighting bosses and i love that.
ico though is pretty boring.
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SotC needs a camera that doesnt blow goats
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Is the Itune store better for videogame music than Zune marketplace?
Well Braid uses music from a few particular artists, its not 'videogame music' ;)
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I really dug SotC. Kickass boss battles and fuck awesome soundtrack.
But yeah, didn't care much for Ico. :-X
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I liked both SotC and Ico. I think that SotC is a great example of a game that was held back by help back by the hardware capabilities of a last gen system. It was a technical nightmare; the image quality and all the damn jaggies were terrible, constant frame rate drops and generally choppy motion to everything. It was really a shame since the idea of scaling a giant beast and systematically taking him down was awesome, and I did enjoy the game, but it could have been so much better on the PS3, 30, or PC.
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Makes me wonder: If Braid were released on the PS3, would the fans of the equally shitty games Ico and SotC be all over it?
smh
Oh TVC. Ico and SOTC are fucking great and totally one of a kind experiences. Nothing really like either of them out there.
Well, SotC was a slight improvement. The horse controls blew ass and the game was basically contentless, but it was still an improvement.
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i don't understand the bitching over horse controls and camera in sotc. both were fine.
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BOBOOBOBO SONY FANDOM OVERRIDING COMMON SENSE BOBOBO ErROR ERrOR MUST SAY DONT UNDERSTAND MUST SAY FINE MUST BUY STUPID FUCKinG SONY GAMEs
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Makes me wonder: If Braid were released on the PS3, would the fans of the equally shitty games Ico and SotC be all over it?
smh
Oh TVC. Ico and SOTC are fucking great and totally one of a kind experiences. Nothing really like either of them out there.
Well, SotC was a slight improvement. The horse controls blew ass and the game was basically contentless, but it was still an improvement.
This. I have no goddamn clue why people say the controls are intuitive or whatever. They are incredibly cumbersome. I mean, sure it's nice that the horse can guide himself through curves, but nearly at every other instance, he's a fuckin jerk to control.
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The guy must be stupid.
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Storytelling in SOTC was awful as well. When will devs stop trying to make games like Oscar movies?
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i don't understand the bitching over horse controls and camera in sotc. both were fine.
???
I can deal with the horse controls (best looking horse in a game) but the camera during the actual gameplay was awful.
i don't see how it was worse than any other free-view 3rd person game that lets you control the camera. though, i didn't really have a problem with ninja gaiden's camera, either. controlling the camera is similar to how you aim in first person games--it's just how you look around and you happen to also see your character. it seems like some people want the game to play itself. ::)
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Storytelling in SOTC was awful as well. When will devs stop trying to make games like Oscar movies?
SotC is right up there with half-life (2) as far as storytelling goes. just a slightly different approach, although it's really not that much different if you think about it. what game, in your opinion, is so great about storytelling?
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The horse camera was bullshit in SOTC, especially during the fight with the snake-like colossus in the cave. Having to ride the horse and turn around to fire an arrow into its eye was beyond broken. It felt like I was controlling a ham sandwich.
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ah, yeah that part was hard
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i don't understand the bitching over horse controls and camera in sotc. both were fine.
I liked the horse controls quite a bit, but the camera did suck.
Storytelling in SOTC was awful as well. When will devs stop trying to make games like Oscar movies?
SOTC is actually a dev doing the opposite of trying to model a game after a movie.
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the game didn't even have a fucking story. opening cutscene, kill bosses, ending cutscene. big deal.
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ya know what would have made the game better? having actual obstacles and puzzles in the enviroment instead of FUCKING NOTHING
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the game didn't even have a fucking story. opening cutscene, kill bosses, ending cutscene. big deal.
be more observant.
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ico is lean as an olympic swimmer and kind of a masterpiece on its own modest terms -- you folks must hate it for political reasons, for the people who like it and the games it's grouped with, because the thing itself is just about irreproachable. sotc i can never bring myself to play for more than an hour or so
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the game didn't even have a fucking story. opening cutscene, kill bosses, ending cutscene. big deal.
The story is pretty obvious. This isn't Braid where you need to sniff glue to somehow turn flags, bad writing that makes me blush, and random other shit means this game is an allegory for the atom bomb.
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I liked ICO more than SOTC as well.
SOTC's minimalist approach makes me :-X
i don't understand the bitching over horse controls and camera in sotc. both were fine.
I liked the horse controls quite a bit, but the camera did suck.
Storytelling in SOTC was awful as well. When will devs stop trying to make games like Oscar movies?
SOTC is actually a dev doing the opposite of trying to model a game after a movie.
SOTC has an abstract plot like many artsy films. Minimalism doesn't work as well in videogames though.
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SOTC has an abstract plot like many artsy films. Minimalism doesn't work as well in videogames though.
i don't see why not. every game doesn't have to fit the popcorn flick mold and entertain ever joe shmoe.
I had a pretty big problem with NG's camera as well, to the point where the whole game suffered from it. If you have to babysit the camera that isn't a good thing.
so like, how do you even play FPS? you can't even function without controlling the 'camera' in FPS--what makes 3rd person action games so different? having your character in view really doesn't change things all that much.
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every game has to fit the popcorn flick mold and entertain every joe shmoe.
that's quietly becoming the unstated principle of a lot of evilbore groupthink
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um...are you serious?
in first person games, you're always controlling the camera--your view. if you don't "babysit" your view, you can't even play the game. third person games with camera control don't typically require precise control of the camera, but the general concept is the same -- you point the camera in the direction you want to look... just like in FPS games.
why do you think going into third person suddenly means you don't have to look where you're going?
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ico is lean as an olympic swimmer and kind of a masterpiece on its own modest terms -- you folks must hate it for political reasons, for the people who like it and the games it's grouped with, because the thing itself is just about irreproachable. sotc i can never bring myself to play for more than an hour or so
I dislike it because it's not fun and I hate escort missions. This latter is also why I hate RE4.
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but ico isn't an escort mission in any meaningful sense -- in game design terms, yorda's basically a cumbersome object that opens doors, and moving her around is good puzzly fun. i hate escort missions too. but come to think of it the best room in re4 was pretty heavy on the escorting -- i'm thinking of that one room with a big oblong pool in the middle and ten billion evil monks
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evilbore groupthink :lol
like we all aren't constantly at each other's throats
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I dislike it because it's not fun and I hate escort missions. This latter is also why I hate RE4.
RE4 was barely an escort mission. You tell her to sit in the corner while you go out guns blazing.
evilbore groupthink :lol
like we all aren't constantly at each other's throats
Screw you, buddy! I think we are a groupthink. Agree with meee!
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evilbore is all about the groupthink, though people here are so frank about their mutual masturbation that it all somehow works
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with that new avatar, i can't tell if drohne is joking or not.
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evilbore is all about the groupthink, though people here are so frank about their mutual masturbation that it all somehow works
No groupthink or system bias on this one. I've disliked Ico since I first played it, long before Glorious MS was a viable player in home gaming.
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with that new avatar, i can't tell if drohne is joking or not.
i was looking through evilbore's inexplicable selection of prefab celebrity avatars last night, and i'm pretty sure this is the best one. seeing it next to my posts is HILARIOUS to me in some unhealthy way
WHY IS HE DIAGONAL
No groupthink or system bias on this one. I've disliked Ico since I first played it, long before Glorious MS was a viable player in home gaming.
cool. and i don't really mean to question people's motivations. for my part i hate lots of games for bad reasons
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I just have a thing about escort missions. I suspect it stems from escort missions always being shitty brick walls that would kill my motivation to finish PC space shooter games. Wow, does that genre even exist these days?
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ico is lean as an olympic swimmer and kind of a masterpiece on its own modest terms -- you folks must hate it for political reasons, for the people who like it and the games it's grouped with, because the thing itself is just about irreproachable. sotc i can never bring myself to play for more than an hour or so
i just got tired of whacking shadows in between lightweight environmental puzzle solving
and like tvc said, i was never a big fan of ico from day one.
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I thought Ico was interesting artistically and the general experience side was good whilst the game play was little more than a watered down Tomb Raider with some awful combat. The guiding Yorda mechanic had a nice feel to it, but i'm not sure what it really added to the game.
the "this is Zelda for adults/playstation" clucking was a bit weird given the obvious similarities to Tomb Raider.
Anyways, didn't think it was bad per se. Just one of those "experience" games i guess. I thought SotC as a -game- was much much better.
:lol Ico gameplay was a watered down... Tomb Raider? is this just the new playstation troll? that "Game_X is just tomb raider"? how is ico a watered down tomb raider any more than basically every other 3D action game/shooter?
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I always liked Ico more than SOTC. Infact it took a second play through of SOTC for me to actually enjoy the thing but after it that the game has really clicked with me (baring the distinguished mentally-challenged colossus battles where you have to ride the horse).
I don't get EB's hatred for Ico. The game just seemed so...perfect. Even though I know how every puzzle works, I'll still play it every now and then just to run through the incredibly beautiful environment and it's short enough that I can finish it in one sitting, so that's a plus for me. Love the story too. As distinguished mentally-challenged as just about every videogame story is (MGS, I'm looking at you), Ico is one the handful that does it absolutely brilliantly and with hardly any dialogue to boot. Of course that may be a big reason why I think it's so good.
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Ico is a lot like Tomb Raider, but that isn't an insult or anything considering Tomb Raider laid the groundwork for every 3D semi-realistic platformer. Prince of Persia also owes it dues to Tomb Raider.
I will also say that despite the simple combat of Ico, it still is much better than what Tomb Raider had. Tomb Raider games always had bad shooting mechanics. This is kind of why I didn't like Legend as much as Anniversary; there was too much shooting required, which sucked considering the actual mechanic was boring.
And while I did enjoy Ico, it still was one of the first games where I fell asleep while I was playing it.
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um...are you serious?
in first person games, you're always controlling the camera--your view. if you don't "babysit" your view, you can't even play the game. third person games with camera control don't typically require precise control of the camera, but the general concept is the same -- you point the camera in the direction you want to look... just like in FPS games.
why do you think going into third person suddenly means you don't have to look where you're going?
haha what? babysit the camera? I dont even know WHAT youre arguing anymore. That's like saying I have to aim my shit when I take a dump in the toilet.
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You know what else sucks, GTA4, its Ico in the hood. OH NOES FAT RELATIVE IN TROUBLES AGAIN! OFF I GO
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I guess I need to play Ico. I really enjoyed SotC, even with the shitty camera.
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there's a point where comparisons like that become redundant. you could make the same argument for countless games. by the time Ico came out, i had already played enough 3D action games to where it was just accepted that characters could jump around and climb on things.
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Ico is crap, dont bother, unless of course you wanna be all JustinP.
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I guess I need to play Ico. I really enjoyed SotC, even with the shitty camera.
[youtube=425,350]YSXwreNIuYE[/youtube]
RAWR!
Ico :-*
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there's a point where comparisons like that become redundant. you could make the same argument for countless games. by the time Ico came out, i had already played enough 3D action games to where it was just accepted that characters could jump around and climb on things.
That style of platforming was actually not very common until around when Prince of Persia came out, which actually was probably the cause for the reinvention of Tomb Raider with Legends. I can't think off too many games that used that style of platforming. Back in the PS1/N64 era, it was all about the mascot 3D platformers copying Mario 64.
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there's a point where comparisons like that become redundant. you could make the same argument for countless games. by the time Ico came out, i had already played enough 3D action games to where it was just accepted that characters could jump around and climb on things.
That style of platforming was actually not very common until around when Prince of Persia came out, which actually was probably the cause for the reinvention of Tomb Raider with Legends. I can't think off too many games that used that style of platforming. Back in the PS1/N64 era, it was all about the mascot 3D platformers copying Mario 64.
even mario could grab ledges and climb ropes. he just did it quicker because he's more of a cartoon.
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um...are you serious?
in first person games, you're always controlling the camera--your view. if you don't "babysit" your view, you can't even play the game. third person games with camera control don't typically require precise control of the camera, but the general concept is the same -- you point the camera in the direction you want to look... just like in FPS games.
why do you think going into third person suddenly means you don't have to look where you're going?
haha what? babysit the camera? I dont even know WHAT youre arguing anymore. That's like saying I have to aim my shit when I take a dump in the toilet.
Yeah i'm not sure where he was going with that one, since fps controls and camera are the same fucking thing, whereas in third person games the camera often does shit you don't want it to do, which is oftentimes what happened in sotc.
:shrug didn't happen much to me. i was in control of the camera. which was my point. for the most part, you're in control of the camera in SotC. just like in ninja gaiden. only time the camera in 3rd person games really bother me is when it's more of an automated camera (where you don't have control) and does a poor job of it.
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Ico is crap, dont bother, unless of course you wanna be all JustinP.
:lol i barely played Ico and i'm barely talking about it in this thread. hitler stole my potato is the guy promoting Ico, buddy.
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even mario could grab ledges and climb ropes. he just did it quicker because he's more of a cartoon.
Yeah, but they hardly required you to do that and the main focus is one jumping from platform to platform and that sort of thing. Tomb Raider and this more realistic platformers are more about scaling more realistic architecture.
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even mario could grab ledges and climb ropes. he just did it quicker because he's more of a cartoon.
Yeah, but they hardly required you to do that and the main focus is one jumping from platform to platform and that sort of thing. Tomb Raider and this more realistic platformers are more about scaling more realistic architecture.
i don't know if you remember, but tomb raider was clunky as hell -- especially considering you used the d-pad. calling something "watered down tomb raider gameplay" would basically be saying "completely broken." if you want to make a comparison to tomb raider, ico's gameplay would be a refinement and a show of progression for games.
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Man I'm lovin' that Ignore icon
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I think the best part of this thread was JustinP's rant about the "FPS Camera" haha
in first person games, you're always controlling the camera--your view. if you don't "babysit" your view, you can't even play the game. third person games with camera control don't typically require precise control of the camera, but the general concept is the same -- you point the camera in the direction you want to look... just like in FPS games.
Oh the lolz
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http://209.11.233.26/archive/2008/08/17/show-289-braid-bionic-commando-rearmed-and-the-summer-of-arcade.aspx
for drohne and demi. blow is on major nelson's podcast.
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i love the revisionist history that tomb raider has always been shit
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http://209.11.233.26/archive/2008/08/17/show-289-braid-bionic-commando-rearmed-and-the-summer-of-arcade.aspx
for drohne and demi. blow is on major nelson's podcast.
I dont really care what he has to say.
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Ico gameplay was a watered down... Tomb Raider? is this just the new playstation troll? that "Game_X is just tomb raider"? how is ico a watered down tomb raider any more than basically every other 3D action game/shooter?
ico's gameplay would be a refinement and a show of progression for games.
typical dyfb - this was quickly followed by :
i barely played Ico
but boy aren't you the fucking expert on it?
it's a watered down tomb raider because the combat and encounters were much worse and the environment "puzzles" weren't as expansive. The game's closest "relative" is obviously tomb raider.
It was , however, artistically and atmosphere wise a much better experience.
Which you'd you know if you'd actually played more of the game.
is this just the new playstation troll?
everytime you fall back on this line, you make yourself look like a massive twat. Some of us finished Ico, more than once.
calling something "watered down tomb raider gameplay" would basically be saying "completely broken."
no it doesn't - go back to school ffs.
the combat and controls in tomb raider were dog shit. laura croft controlled and animated like a fucking robot. did you not play mdk or mdk2 that came out before ico? because those games were closer to tomb raider combat -- you know, jumping around and shooting at shit.... which is not really something you do in Ico. i don't need to have beaten Ico to know that Ico is more about a fluid character that climbs and swipes at enemies while pulling a girl along for the ride.
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i love the revisionist history that tomb raider has always been shit
i happened to play mdk before tomb raider (they weren't too far apart). i never liked tomb raider.
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I think the best part of this thread was JustinP's rant about the "FPS Camera" haha
in first person games, you're always controlling the camera--your view. if you don't "babysit" your view, you can't even play the game. third person games with camera control don't typically require precise control of the camera, but the general concept is the same -- you point the camera in the direction you want to look... just like in FPS games.
Oh the lolz
a rant? what are you smoking?
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i happened to play mdk before tomb raider (they weren't too far apart). i never liked tomb raider.
Ico has more in common with Tomb Raider than MDK does.
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i happened to play mdk before tomb raider (they weren't too far apart). i never liked tomb raider.
Ico has more in common with Tomb Raider than MDK does.
overall, sure. MDK takes place in crazy sci fi settings and has crazy characters. gameplay wise? not really. i only cited similarities between tomb raider and MDK combat, which are much more similar than anything found in Ico.
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lol - no , i will not do this - i will just add you to ignore.
I will not feed the mong.
good thinking
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i think it's more that ico and tomb raider draw on the same sources -- namely prince of persia and another world -- and ico does it better than tomb raider ever has or will. though the first tomb raider did some really memorable things under its unbelievable control jankiness
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have you played anniversary, drohne? it's the first tomb raider, now with massive upgraded controls, better level layouts, and more polished puzzle design. it's by far and away my favorite tr.
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Yeah, Anniversary is worth picking up even if you hated the original; at least that is the case for me. I hated Tomb Raider 1. I tried playing it on my PS1, then later on my N-gage QD, then later on my PSP, but each time I juts remembered how much I hated that game. Despite all that, I think Anniversary is an amazing game.
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i think it's more that ico and tomb raider draw on the same sources -- namely prince of persia and another world -- and ico does it better than tomb raider ever has or will. though the first tomb raider did some really memorable things under its unbelievable control jankiness
some sanity in this thread? finally
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i've been meaning to play anniversary -- i thought legend was pretty good. maybe i'll pick it up while i wait for tecmo to GET ON THE FUCKING BALL WITH THE NG2 PATCH SITUATION
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How's TR:Anniversary on the PSP in 333MHZ mode? I need to play something on my PSP.
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I haven't played the PSP game, but unless they have some good solution for the lack of the second/camera stick, I think it would be tough to play.
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:lol
That was awesomely fast.
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dude banged sarah michelle gellar. show some respect
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is that the current WWE writer?
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is TR: A better on PC or ps2, control wise? i played the first gen tr games on PC and man.....such painful memories...
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pc with a 360 pad is the best
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Good Jon Blow's opinion on the Cell = truth
Other dev's good bright opinion on the Cell = PR?
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Good Jon Blow's opinion on the Cell = truth
Other dev's good bright opinion on the Cell = PR?
Every game developer complains about how hard the PS3 is to program for, and yet its net game performance is no greater than a simpler architecture with fewer CPUs/cores. The theoretical computational power of the PS3 is indeed higher than that of the 360, yet games run no better. The PS3 shows that it's possible to make games run on a heterogenous multiprocessor system, but not that it's beneficial to do so -- quite the opposite really.
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i think the problem is that evidence is on the side of the doubters
"Cell is an amazing beast.... we just can't show you just yet."
paying for potential