THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 12:14:42 AM

Title: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 12:14:42 AM
Well, a good percentage of each, how similar they are. Both are: extremely arrogant and think they have it ALL figured out, belittle anyone elses beliefs, and have an unhealthy obsession with argunig about it to try to convince someone they're right - as if they'll change someone's minds. Quite ironic.  :lol
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on August 26, 2008, 12:17:47 AM
also, "x is a fundamentalist" and "x is an atheist" are both single-argument predicates with the exact same type signature
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on August 26, 2008, 12:20:48 AM
I'm not sure if I fit into that category but at one time, I definitely was.

These days, I just don't care.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 12:27:47 AM
A time traveler from the usenet days is here to visit old and poorly formed arguments upon us i see.

i also hear that the information must be free (man).
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 12:30:11 AM
i will after i finish this 6000 line (80 column) arpanet missive about how jcl on the system 370 is the future, and how vax/vms is dragging society into decline
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Human Snorenado on August 26, 2008, 12:40:40 AM
i will after i finish this 6000 line (80 column) arpanet missive about how jcl on the system 370 is the future, and how vax/vms is dragging society into decline

Arpanet?  Say hi to Al for me.  Also let him know that he'll never be President, the poor bastard.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 12:41:47 AM
i said hi, but he's still heartbroken over tipper getting pounded by john "the schlong" edwards in the dorm room next to his
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Bildi on August 26, 2008, 12:45:17 AM
I don't think it's fair to say atheists in general are even close to fundamentalists.  But I agree "fundamental atheists" are just as big pain in the ass as traditional fundamentalists.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Positive Touch on August 26, 2008, 12:50:27 AM
basically, obnoxious people are obnoxious.  truly mind-blowing
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Fresh Prince on August 26, 2008, 12:58:43 AM
These are militant atheists or new atheists or whatever they call themselves to differentiate themselves from the, "I respect your belief system but I reserve the right to make fun of you behind your back for believing in fairyland." atheists.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: APF on August 26, 2008, 01:13:28 AM
Anyone with strong beliefs will strongly defend them.  A key difference though, is that fundamentalism implies an adherence to doctrine, which is rarely the case with atheism--or else that atheism would only be one part of a wider ideology or codified system of beliefs.  Even "science" is more a method of discovery and observation than, again, an inviolate Word.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Flannel Boy on August 26, 2008, 01:33:35 AM
Let's replace the parties.

It's funny how creationists and evolutionists are the same. Both groups are extremely arrogant and think they have it ALL figured out, belittle anyone else's beliefs, and have an unhealthy obsession with arguing. THEY'RE THE SAME

And? Should we become agnostic? Should we withhold judgment. Should we shrug our shoulders and say "both groups make compelling arguments"?

A middle of the road position may seem more reasonable, but it's not.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 01:34:32 AM
LET'S HEAR BOTH SIDES, THEY ARE CLEARLY EQUALLY RIGHT AS THIS MUST BE A BINARY PROPOSITION

AM I NOT MAGNANIMOUS
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Oblivion on August 26, 2008, 01:36:50 AM
It always sucks to be on any extreme, but I think I'd rather be with an extreme atheist than an extreme religious nut.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 01:40:33 AM
I basically want to be the dude in that guro comic, and most world religions tell me that it would be immoral to do what I desire.  I think my "religious" beliefs are more in line with those espoused by classic canadian children's show Today's Special:  imagination will let me do anything, and that's better than Jesus or alla or Buddah or whatever the shinto jesus is named.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on August 26, 2008, 01:43:47 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 01:46:12 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness?  A look at the past few decades in sports will tell you that races weren't made equal when it comes to physical activities, so why would the same pattern not be found in less politically correct areas of humanity?
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Smooth Groove on August 26, 2008, 01:50:38 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Eel O'Brian on August 26, 2008, 01:50:55 AM
i think anyone who spends more than a couple of hours a day on the internet should be sterilized

spoiler (click to show/hide)
with a zippo lighter
[close]
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 01:51:59 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 

No doubt they were iffy at the time, but hasn't the science been pretty much abandoned for a long ass time?  I don't think ethical issues should stand in the way of a promising thesis.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 01:53:06 AM
eugenics is the long way around. fascism is much easier: you can let them babble all they want about all ideas being equal right before the rope tightens, permanently refuting their arguments
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 01:55:17 AM
eugenics is the long way around. fascism is much easier: you can let them babble all they want about all ideas being equal right before the rope tightens, permanently refuting their arguments

I'm TRYING to save people here.  I believe that if we cross breed black people with, say, catholic irish or italians, we might be able to somehow give them souls so they can go to heaven.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Smooth Groove on August 26, 2008, 01:56:09 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 

No doubt they were iffy at the time, but hasn't the science been pretty much abandoned for a long ass time?  I don't think ethical issues should stand in the way of a promising thesis.

That's an interesting idea but scientists today care more a lot about ethical issues than they used to.  It's pretty hard just to get approval for testing relatively harmless drugs on human subjects.  

Also, humans have long life cycles therefore it'd be pretty hard for a scientist to prove his eugenic theories during his lifetime.  
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 01:56:19 AM
nobody wants to breed with italians
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: CajoleJuice on August 26, 2008, 01:57:22 AM
It's funny how close sfags and xbots actually are
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Smooth Groove on August 26, 2008, 01:57:49 AM
nobody wants to breed with italians

You wouldn't breed with this?

(http://images.askmen.com/galleries/actress/monica-bellucci/pictures/monica-bellucci-picture-6.jpg)
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Flannel Boy on August 26, 2008, 01:58:24 AM
My position is moderate: I don't believe in god(s). I'm no more extreme than those who don't believe in pixies or unicorns or spaghetti monsters. And at least those entities are material, unlike an immaterial, infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God.
Are we children?

TVC15, I don't have a problem with voluntary eugenics as long as it's not coercive and the autonomy of individuals is respected. So I'm obviously against forced sterilization, forced abortions, forced marriages, forced pregnancies, etc. But I'm for genetic screening, sperm banks, and even some government incentives.

Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 01:58:32 AM
exception that proves the rule, dude

guido.gif
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: CajoleJuice on August 26, 2008, 01:59:29 AM
I saw plenty more exceptions in the hot girl thread
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 02:00:16 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 

No doubt they were iffy at the time, but hasn't the science been pretty much abandoned for a long ass time?  I don't think ethical issues should stand in the way of a promising thesis.

That's an interesting idea but scientists today care more a lot about ethical issues than they used to.  It's pretty hard just to get approval for testing relatively harmless drugs on human subjects.  

Also, humans have long life cycles therefore it'd be pretty hard for a scientist to prove his eugenic theories during his lifetime.  

Well, if there were some sort of difference mentally, wouldn't there be some sort of physiological evidence for it that could be discovered?  It's sad to say that this is as potentially a valid field as any, but there's no one eloquent enough to be able to start research without being branded as a racist or something.  Maybe when society is a little more mature. Or maybe the genome will turn up something.  Political correctness sucks.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Flannel Boy on August 26, 2008, 02:00:21 AM
I saw plenty more exceptions in the hot girl thread
high five

I'm all for being forced to breed with Italian women. Though, it sure won't be me who is being forced!
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: CajoleJuice on August 26, 2008, 02:02:02 AM
*effiel tower high-five*
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 02:02:45 AM
:drudge CAJOLE ERECTILE TRIGGER DISCOVERED; "NJ SEXY FOR ME!" HE SAYS :drudge

(http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/3361/guido033pl.jpg)
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: CajoleJuice on August 26, 2008, 02:03:53 AM
fuck, now i won't be able to go to sleep

guuuuidddooosssssss
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Smooth Groove on August 26, 2008, 02:03:53 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 

No doubt they were iffy at the time, but hasn't the science been pretty much abandoned for a long ass time?  I don't think ethical issues should stand in the way of a promising thesis.

That's an interesting idea but scientists today care more a lot about ethical issues than they used to.  It's pretty hard just to get approval for testing relatively harmless drugs on human subjects.  

Also, humans have long life cycles therefore it'd be pretty hard for a scientist to prove his eugenic theories during his lifetime.  

Well, if there were some sort of difference mentally, wouldn't there be some sort of physiological evidence for it that could be discovered?  It's sad to say that this is as potentially a valid field as any, but there's no one eloquent enough to be able to start research without being branded as a racist or something.  Maybe when society is a little more mature. Or maybe the genome will turn up something.  Political correctness sucks.


Well, you'd also have to rule out other factors that might affect IQ development.  It's a pretty hard experiment to do considering you can't treat humans like lab rats and humans do many unpredictable things.  
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: demi on August 26, 2008, 02:04:18 AM
demi does, but just the bigger guys, so i don't think that counts

you cant breed with men, smh
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 02:05:28 AM
IQ is an untestable quality; it's a poorly-defined aggregate of non-physical attributes and values elevated by a specific culture at a moment in time

edit: although it is safe to assume that libertarians have IQs below 80
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Oblivion on August 26, 2008, 02:06:34 AM
exception that proves the rule, dude

guido.gif

You know, I always wondered about that phrase. If something has an exception, then technically, wouldn't it not be a rule? /randomderail
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 02:06:44 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 

No doubt they were iffy at the time, but hasn't the science been pretty much abandoned for a long ass time?  I don't think ethical issues should stand in the way of a promising thesis.

That's an interesting idea but scientists today care more a lot about ethical issues than they used to.  It's pretty hard just to get approval for testing relatively harmless drugs on human subjects.  

Also, humans have long life cycles therefore it'd be pretty hard for a scientist to prove his eugenic theories during his lifetime.  

Well, if there were some sort of difference mentally, wouldn't there be some sort of physiological evidence for it that could be discovered?  It's sad to say that this is as potentially a valid field as any, but there's no one eloquent enough to be able to start research without being branded as a racist or something.  Maybe when society is a little more mature. Or maybe the genome will turn up something.  Political correctness sucks.


Well, you'd also have to rule out other factors that might affect IQ development.  It's a pretty hard experiment to do considering you can't treat humans like lab rats and humans do many unpredictable things.  

I think under the right conservative reign, we'd be able to use federal prisoners and lifers as lab rats.  I think with the right carrot in front of their noses, they'd be willing to offer themselves up for such research.  This, of course, rules out studying the developmental angle, and being felons, there'd have to be allowances made for them not being "normal" people, but it would be a starting point, and once any solid, promising evidence was found, i think doors for research might open elsewhere.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Smooth Groove on August 26, 2008, 02:11:16 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 

No doubt they were iffy at the time, but hasn't the science been pretty much abandoned for a long ass time?  I don't think ethical issues should stand in the way of a promising thesis.

That's an interesting idea but scientists today care more a lot about ethical issues than they used to.  It's pretty hard just to get approval for testing relatively harmless drugs on human subjects.  

Also, humans have long life cycles therefore it'd be pretty hard for a scientist to prove his eugenic theories during his lifetime.  

Well, if there were some sort of difference mentally, wouldn't there be some sort of physiological evidence for it that could be discovered?  It's sad to say that this is as potentially a valid field as any, but there's no one eloquent enough to be able to start research without being branded as a racist or something.  Maybe when society is a little more mature. Or maybe the genome will turn up something.  Political correctness sucks.


Well, you'd also have to rule out other factors that might affect IQ development.  It's a pretty hard experiment to do considering you can't treat humans like lab rats and humans do many unpredictable things.  

I think under the right conservative reign, we'd be able to use federal prisoners and lifers as lab rats.  I think with the right carrot in front of their noses, they'd be willing to offer themselves up for such research.  This, of course, rules out studying the developmental angle, and being felons, there'd have to be allowances made for them not being "normal" people, but it would be a starting point, and once any solid, promising evidence was found, i think doors for research might open elsewhere.

Genetically, it'd also be pretty hard to explain the significance of your experiments.  Did the "dumb" genes (actually alleles) come from the father, mother or is it a recombination of both, etc? 

I don't think modern scientists would accept the sorta theory you have, unless it's backed up by biochemical evidence. 
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: CajoleJuice on August 26, 2008, 02:13:43 AM
exception that proves the rule, dude

guido.gif

You know, I always wondered about that phrase. If something has an exception, then technically, wouldn't it not be a rule? /randomderail

yeah, it's actually a logical fallacy. but whatever
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 02:13:55 AM
I think we need to bring back eugenics.  If you lose more than three of your teeth due to not brushing them, you get sterilized.  Call me extreme but if you don't know how to use a toothbrush, you should lose your right to make babies.

I dunno.  Is there any reason that eugenics were written off aside from political correctness? 

It's too long to argue the ethical issues but the science of eugenicists were kinda iffy. 

No doubt they were iffy at the time, but hasn't the science been pretty much abandoned for a long ass time?  I don't think ethical issues should stand in the way of a promising thesis.

That's an interesting idea but scientists today care more a lot about ethical issues than they used to.  It's pretty hard just to get approval for testing relatively harmless drugs on human subjects.  

Also, humans have long life cycles therefore it'd be pretty hard for a scientist to prove his eugenic theories during his lifetime.  

Well, if there were some sort of difference mentally, wouldn't there be some sort of physiological evidence for it that could be discovered?  It's sad to say that this is as potentially a valid field as any, but there's no one eloquent enough to be able to start research without being branded as a racist or something.  Maybe when society is a little more mature. Or maybe the genome will turn up something.  Political correctness sucks.


Well, you'd also have to rule out other factors that might affect IQ development.  It's a pretty hard experiment to do considering you can't treat humans like lab rats and humans do many unpredictable things.  

I think under the right conservative reign, we'd be able to use federal prisoners and lifers as lab rats.  I think with the right carrot in front of their noses, they'd be willing to offer themselves up for such research.  This, of course, rules out studying the developmental angle, and being felons, there'd have to be allowances made for them not being "normal" people, but it would be a starting point, and once any solid, promising evidence was found, i think doors for research might open elsewhere.

Genetically, it'd also be pretty hard to explain the significance of your experiments.  Did the "dumb" genes (actually alleles) come from the father, mother or is it a recombination of both, etc? 

I don't think modern scientists would accept the sorta theory you have, unless it's backed up by biochemical evidence. 

Well, it's not a field I've looked into.  I was just stating that I think there could feasibly be things discovered in eugenics-oriented research.  I'm more into psychology, so if I ended up in research, I'd primarily be focused on tormenting and trolling research.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 02:15:38 AM
Let's replace the parties.

It's funny how creationists and evolutionists are the same. Both groups are extremely arrogant and think they have it ALL figured out, belittle anyone else's beliefs, and have an unhealthy obsession with arguing. THEY'RE THE SAME

And? Should we become agnostic? Should we withhold judgment. Should we shrug our shoulders and say "both groups make compelling arguments"?

A middle of the road position may seem more reasonable, but it's not.

Eh, I really don't give a shit about that argument. It's completely different, because most people say if you believe in creationism, you are a Bible thumper who says the book of Genesis is the written history of man. I'm Catholic, and some people can't get the difference between parable and literal meaning. That's all that is. There's different types of "creationism" To me, I don't give a shit about evolution. Things evolve, I get it. Where's the zero point though? Where was the point where these random atoms combined to make something that was LIVING - the almighty start point.

It kind of annoys me when a higher power is ruled out, when literally, we can't even observe 97% of the universe made up of dark matter/energy that supposedly moves galaxies. We don't even have our shit together on our own planet, but yet someone people are high and mighty enough to rule out a higher power, and then arrogant enough to insult those who believe its possible.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 02:19:22 AM
no-one is ruling out a "higher power"; they're just ruling out your wacky christian god from your insignificant little time period on a backwater planet in this permutation of potentially countless universes. trust me, chances do NOT favor your particular god as being said higher power, even if some super-creational authority does indeed exist.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 02:26:25 AM
hey, i'm not against believing in "god"; i'm against anyone acting like they can fathom said authority from a bunch of cribbed-together oral histories and a couple thousand years of belligerent social grandstanding. having faith in a "god" isn't necessarily stupid (although it strikes me as kinda pointless, yet i've probably believed in more useless things, like release schedules), but having faith that the bible -- or any other text -- is the revealed word and law of that god most definitely *is*. life appears nonsensical at times, but it doesn't have to be steeped in childish fantasy.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Oblivion on August 26, 2008, 02:27:02 AM
I believe in God, but not the same God that the major religions seem to worship. There's a lot of reasons why I believe that way, but one in particular that always struck me was how all the rules and regulations that govern the Abrahamic religions seem to just coincidentally fall in line with how societies in general were governing at the time.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 02:27:19 AM
I can breed the christianity out of christians.  Just give me a gallon of PCP sprayed onto a bale of hay and the tender loins of Mabel from What's Happening.  Eugenics will make all right in the world.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 02:31:30 AM
Quote
i will after i finish this 6000 line (80 column) arpanet missive about how jcl on the system 370 is the future, and how vax/vms is dragging society into decline

i managed to recreate Jetpac and manic miner using JUST DCL on dec/vax mainframe.

can i do the same with JCL? can i fuck! because JCL is fucking horrible and the fact i have had to use it for 8 years in this job and 1 year in another job annoys the shit out of me after 4 years uni/4 years VAXing.

oh vax - i could get you to do anything...

JCL DIE DIE DIE.

Quote
It kind of annoys me when a higher power is ruled out, when literally, we can't even observe 97% of the universe made up of dark matter/energy that supposedly moves galaxies.

we can't see it !
we don't understand it!
it's so complex
then that MUST show some sort of god!
here, we have this book too! :O
we can't observe -expected- scientific results , theres a big gap to "oh wait, but there was this creator who just made all of it. No sorry, no proof. Did i mention this book we have?"

Did I say that? No. You're using a strawman argument, I never gave a god of gaps argument. My problem is what authority is there to device a solid argument on it when there are those gaps? It's kinda like turning on the TV to a basketball game for 5 seconds, not seeing the score. Turning it off for an hour, turning it back on for another 5 seconds. OK, now make your argument to which team won based off that. There's simply not enough information, or knowledge capability of our pitiful little organism to make assumptions like that. That sure doesn't keep certain people from being arrogant about it though.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 02:32:15 AM
Quote
There's simply not enough information, or knowledge capability of our pitiful little organism to make assumptions like that.

so you're an agnostic

or a disingenuous believer looking for a rhetorical escape hatch
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Candyflip on August 26, 2008, 02:37:11 AM
I can breed the christianity out of christians.  Just give me a gallon of PCP sprayed onto a bale of hay and the tender loins of Mabel from What's Happening.  Eugenics will make all right in the world.
I actually laughed out loud at this :bow
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 02:37:24 AM
It's amazing that someone who belongs to the Catholic "bring us your boys" church can throw around the arrogant elitist label.  smh.

But I balance it out by being a Catholic (by birth) that fully supports the happy future that only eugenics could bring us.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 02:41:17 AM
Quote
There's simply not enough information, or knowledge capability of our pitiful little organism to make assumptions like that.

so you're an agnostic

or a disingenuous believer looking for a rhetorical escape hatch

Whether or not so and so is the decided Lord and Savior of the world and so on just a part of it. Even if you're not a believer in a Christian, Jewish, Muslim God - then there are still things you can take at face value out of it - like not being a prick, and lessons on life. Whether you goto an unconscious abyss, or an after life, or a reincarnation or whatever isn't the only part of it. I know its hard to believe, but its a little more than that.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 02:43:26 AM
so what is your point here
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 02:46:32 AM
Quote
My problem is what authority is there to device a solid argument on it when there are those gaps? It's kinda like turning on the TV to a basketball game for 5 seconds, not seeing the score. Turning it off for an hour, turning it back on for another 5 seconds. OK, now make your argument to which team won based off that. There's simply not enough information, or knowledge capability of our pitiful little organism to make assumptions like that. That sure doesn't keep certain people from being arrogant about it though.

... and christians aren't?
they have the least evidence of ANYONE yet they are pointing the finger and asking for -more- evidence from everyone else!
that's the HEIGHT of arrogance!

Christians in this analogy don't even see the game
their claim is "well, i hear there was this game of something on some channel - no one recorded it and we have no evidence , just hearsay... and what evidence do you have as to who won?"

More lions, less christians please.


Because I would like to know more information to have an opinion on something makes me arrogant? WTF? Christianity doesn't have anything to do with that, BTW. And isn't this the same argument thats been going on the past several years with the Iraq War? "Let's not be arrogant here, Iraq has WMD's, no need to wait for evidence. Fuck em, lets invade that shit."
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Van Cruncheon on August 26, 2008, 02:47:25 AM
so you don't have an opinion and are therefore agnostic. why do you need to be a catholic then?
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 02:52:23 AM
so you don't have an opinion and are therefore agnostic. why do you need to be a catholic then?

Well, a good part of it is on faith. Maybe I don't have a darn reason or proof to believe this way, but I think there's probably an afterlife for those who look for it. More than that, I think the Bible is a pretty good book on parables with meanings on just about everything. Not that I go to it often and read it, but there's some pretty good lessons in it.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 02:54:25 AM
Crowley made the Bible obsolete.  His writ of the law is superior to anything in the bible:  "do what thou wilt."
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 02:56:38 AM
He looks like a big ol' cock.  I just want to sit on him.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: demi on August 26, 2008, 02:57:37 AM
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/5400/76748352ph9.jpg)
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: demi on August 26, 2008, 03:00:35 AM
i worship only to be rewarded
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: demi on August 26, 2008, 03:13:31 AM
i am but a simple man who lives for the small things
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 03:14:10 AM
Quote
Because I would like to know more information to have an opinion on something makes me arrogant? WTF? Christianity doesn't have anything to do with that, BTW. And isn't this the same argument thats been going on the past several years with the Iraq War? "Let's not be arrogant here, Iraq has WMD's, no need to wait for evidence. Fuck em, lets invade that shit."

you need an opinion based on facts and info to make up your mind about the other side? Why not apply that to christianity? :baffle.

no , this is not the same as Iraq at all - that's just using a completely unrelated analogy to try and pain doubt on something there is actual -evidence- for. Do not mix SCIENCE with POLITICS.

note : i was raised a roman catholic, in a strong irish catholic family. I was left to my own devices to figure all this out, but having a good education and a grounding in science makes believing in the Catholic God very very unlikely. I'm open to the idea of some sort of supreme conciousness or whatever, but MANMADE attempts to put this into some sort of packagable religion are, quite frankly, laughable.

Can you give me any evidence to the contrary as to why catholicism shouldn't be laughed out of existance?
and if you mention morality collapsing if there is no ultimate punishment, i will reach through the internet and shit on your face.

Quote
Well, a good part of it is on faith. Maybe I don't have a darn reason or proof to believe this way, but I think there's probably an afterlife for those who look for it. More than that, I think the Bible is a pretty good book on parables with meanings on just about everything. Not that I go to it often and read it, but there's some pretty good lessons in it.


pretty good lessons != there is a god.


 

Yeah sorry - if I don't think there's a simple answer to you know, the biggest question in the history of civilization. Not only that, but be arrogant about it, when I don't have a reason to.

As for Catholism, maybe you're right - there could be any religion founded. So go found one, see how successful it is. All I know is there was a nice set of "coincidences" that lined up in the Abrahamic tradition that pushed this all through. Maybe these beliefs came out of thin air and everyone just started to believe and they did. Not everyone believed in this afterlife thing you know? The prevailing belief was you goto a land of the dead (can't remember the name, it escapes me.) It must have took a hell of a salesman to push this belief against the grain of what was going on at the time.

As for Jesus, maybe its one big joke - maybe the guy was just killed and that was it. But I find it odd that during those teams there were tons of revolutionary messianic sects, and *this* one just happened to survive. Why would the disciples go spread this after the leader died? Yet, how did this line religion survive years of persecution? I doubt "Laughter" is going to push the Christian religion out of existence when years of persecution from the Roman Empire and other hierarchies couldn't.

Maybe there's no reason to believe it, but it sure doesn't seem to be too bad to be on a side as resilient as that. It could have been crushed or a rejected belief like probably thousands of small cults back then and wasn't.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Candyflip on August 26, 2008, 03:21:04 AM
Ignore me. I'm drunk, stupid, and illiterate
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Bildi on August 26, 2008, 03:25:52 AM
i am but a simple man who lives for the small things

So you're saying god has a small cock.

I can respect that.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 03:26:48 AM
how did this line religion survive years of persecution?

Not like there are other organized religions with equally extensive pasts still present in the contemporary world or anything

Didn't say there weren't. Maybe its being helped along by ET's who just want to fuck with people or a higher power that is doing it all over and there's just different paths. Who knows? Just saying, some people tend to sound like you write a book and suddenly have a longterm religion. The in's and out's of it are interesting how so many ancient religions are around, and supernatural events documented in each, whether you believe them or not.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Cormacaroni on August 26, 2008, 03:31:12 AM
Quote
The in's and out's of it are interesting how so many ancient religions are around, and supernatural events documented in each, whether you believe them or not.

why did these supernatural events stop occuring after we got out of that weird "what one person writes is fact" time? anyone have any ideas?!


We invented 'science' and entered the 'age of reason'.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: demi on August 26, 2008, 03:31:22 AM
i am but a simple man who lives for the small things

So you're saying god has a small cock.

I can respect that.

It's not about what God can do with his cock

It's about what I can do for God's cock
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: TVC15 on August 26, 2008, 03:33:11 AM
how did this line religion survive years of persecution?

Not like there are other organized religions with equally extensive pasts still present in the contemporary world or anything

Didn't say there weren't. Maybe its being helped along by ET's who just want to fuck with people or a higher power that is doing it all over and there's just different paths. Who knows? Just saying, some people tend to sound like you write a book and suddenly have a longterm religion. The in's and out's of it are interesting how so many ancient religions are around, and supernatural events documented in each, whether you believe them or not.

Write a book = start a religion may have been close to the truth back then, when literacy was through the floor.  And when the church was the only light in the world for nearly a millenium, they certainly didn't help teach people how to read and write.  The fact that the text has survived so long is one of the only reasons Christianity is taken seriously.  If the Bible were "discovered" or written a century ago, we'd be laughing at it like it was mormon bullshit.  I think a valid sociological claim can be made that illiteracy is one of the reasons religion prospered.
Title: Re: It's funny how close fundamentalists and atheists actually are
Post by: Hollywood on August 26, 2008, 03:34:52 AM
Quote
Maybe these beliefs came out of thin air and everyone just started to believe and they did.

if you do some research, you'll find that almost all the belief systems/stories presented in the bible are derived from even older sources and other stories.

the bible and the religion is pretty much a culmination of a whole history of stories and teachings passed down for multiple generation, most of which are fundamentally simple pointers to being a good person.

That doesn't make the teachings of the bible wrong - i fundamentally believe that the teachings are all sound, however, i don't see how or why attaching a God to these is necessary - at all. The notion presented usually in this case is there is nothing forcing someone to be "good" if there is no divine punishment - i believe this to be a completely empty argument.

Quote
As for Jesus, maybe its one big joke - maybe the guy was just killed and that was it. But I find it odd that during those teams there were tons of revolutionary messianic sects, and *this* one just happened to survive. Why would the disciples go spread this after the leader died? Yet, how did this line religion survive years of persecution? I doubt "Laughter" is going to push the Christian religion out of existence when years of persecution from the Roman Empire and other hierarchies couldn't.

it survived and prospered simply because it did or there were controlling factors. You mention christianity, but what is your thoughts on Islam - it's survived longer than christianity and has billions of followers. Who is right? Them or you? there are overlaps of course , but they aren't strictly compatible. Indian gods have been around for similar sorts of times too - why did they survive? what are your thoughts on them?

Christianity can survive as long as it wants, as long as it doesn't interfere with the SCIENTIFIC progress of mankind, then go for it. The second it does, you can all go fuck yourselves.


Islam has survived longer than Christianity? Wasn't Muhammad a few hundred years after Jesus? There's a TON of religions out there, not saying one is more right than another, but that's what the argument always turns into. Wasn't making an argument that the longest surviving religion is the right one. I am just responding to your point about why something shouldn't be laughed out of existence. It's survived a lot more than laughter.

And you end with pretty much the point I'm talking about. "You can all go fuck yourselves" - intolerance for no reason whatsoever, other than you just want to be a prick. It could be me, but I don't think Vatican City has much control of what goes on in the scientific community nowadays, and I'm not opposed to any scientific progress. But hey, generalizations and intolerance - it pretty much proves the point of what I'm talking about, and you didn't disappoint.