THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Human Snorenado on November 19, 2008, 04:04:08 PM

Title: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Human Snorenado on November 19, 2008, 04:04:08 PM
Haven't found that floor yet!
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Phoenix Dark on November 19, 2008, 04:06:14 PM
The Obama Recession continues!

Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Beardo on November 19, 2008, 04:13:39 PM
I thought that bailout was supposed to save us...
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Eric P on November 19, 2008, 04:28:23 PM
i just looked out the window

no on is leaping from their buildings yet
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Joe Molotov on November 19, 2008, 04:39:11 PM
Good job, Obama.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Bloodwake on November 19, 2008, 04:44:38 PM
Jesus Christ, fucking Republicans scare me.

Obama isn't even fucking DOING ANYTHING YET, how is it the Obama Recession?

PS: I know people are joking, but still it pisses me off.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Oblivion on November 19, 2008, 04:47:54 PM
I thought that bailout was supposed to save us...

Blame the non-socialist republicans that approved it.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 19, 2008, 04:54:49 PM
The fundamentals of the economy are strong my friends.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Rman on November 19, 2008, 04:59:10 PM
Guys, we are talking about a recovery that may take a couple of years.  No use speculating about the effects of the bailout now. 
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Kestastrophe on November 19, 2008, 05:05:53 PM
^This is true. Also for perspective, the effects of fed rate decisions typically take 9 months to be felt.

I knew the crisis was going to be bad, but I never would have thought that we would see this much volatility and that the stock market would hit this low. I don't think that anyone really knows what value is and the market is moving on confidence/fear.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Don Flamenco on November 19, 2008, 05:27:42 PM
GOOD FUCKING JOB OBAMA WAY TO GO

Quote
I thought that bailout was supposed to save us...

how does i understand economics
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fresh Prince on November 19, 2008, 05:38:58 PM
I thought that bailout was supposed to save us...
Iit was supposed to just delay the inevitable not actually 'save' us
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: siamesedreamer on November 19, 2008, 06:26:12 PM
6700 will be the bottom...
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Van Cruncheon on November 19, 2008, 06:31:06 PM
6500-6700, 12% unemployment is the bottom. called it here. we won't see the signs of an uptick until end of FY09. three years recovery. obama in 2012.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: siamesedreamer on November 19, 2008, 06:51:31 PM
Unemployment won't get that high. Probably more around 9-9.5%.

The economic recovery will be extremely slow and there's a good chance it may be L-shaped in nature. Plus, we're due for a long period of stagnant DOW valuation:

(http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/images/100_year_dow_bull_bear_periods.jpg)

The run that peaked last October dates back almost 26 years.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: drew on November 19, 2008, 07:26:59 PM
Jesus Christ, fucking Republicans scare me.

Obama isn't even fucking DOING ANYTHING YET, how is it the Obama Recession?

PS: I know people are joking, but still it pisses me off.

keep spinnin demofag

bububububububububu
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: MrAngryFace on November 19, 2008, 07:34:30 PM
Yeah Chris Matthews brought up to some distinguished mentally-challenged fellow that if the car companies go 11 the stocks will take a crazy hit and the guys like 'well we havent hit bottom yet'.

Im glad to see all of this is a real concern for elected officials
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: demi on November 20, 2008, 01:55:35 AM
You should worry about your own dirty poor country first, Borys
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Human Snorenado on November 20, 2008, 07:57:48 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/Triumph/dow36k-1.jpg)
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: TVC15 on November 20, 2008, 09:11:45 AM
What a fucking cunt.  Of all the times to pull this shit.

I guess the good news is that even if he vetoes it now, it will just pass fine in a few months once Obama is in.  Most (if not all) people that would be going on unemployment over the past two months (when jobs have been slashed) will still be covered by unemployment by the time Obama gets in office, too.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: siamesedreamer on November 20, 2008, 06:05:29 PM
S&P 500 -52% since last October...
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Kestastrophe on November 20, 2008, 06:19:55 PM
Well, other than the now typical stock shitfest today there were several bombs dropped today.

1.) Unemployment claims hit a 16 year high

2.) Inflation decreased by the largest one month amount EVER, by a whopping 1% (12% annualized).  :'( What do you think credit defaults are going to be if we have deflation  :o
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 06:28:16 PM
I can see 12% unemployment if they let the automakers completely collapse. I think it'll be 8.5% or so around 1Q next year, then things start to level off. Whether they actually get better as the recession subsides is dependent on how much stimulus we pump into the economy and where we pump it-if we just cut taxes and give rebates it'll stay low, if we fund states and infrastructure things will bounce back sooner.

People shouldn't be too worried about Citibank, they are jerkfaces but otherwise they will make it through this whole thing just fine.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 06:31:52 PM
btw, the car companies can't really go into chapter 11 at this point. There's no lenders out there in this environment that are going to fork out the loans for debtor in poession financing given that it will take years for chapter 11 to untangle and even then they might not make it out. It's either government intervention or the midwest will face great depression era unemployment.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Kestastrophe on November 20, 2008, 06:35:06 PM
I don't know, there was an article in the WSJ today about how foreign manufacturers are having an increasing presence in the U.S. I could see some of them buying liquidated assets on the cheap and then employing non-union employees. Nomura, the japanese bank, is actually doing this right now
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 06:37:46 PM
I don't know, there was an article in the WSJ today about how foreign manufacturers are having an increasing presence in the U.S. I could see some of them buying liquidated assets on the cheap and then employing non-union employees.

otherwise known as chapter 7 bankruptcy , where the assets go into liquidation and the company pretty much defaults on everything. There's no silver lining to that, and Japanese automakers won't ramp up auto production in the near term when the US economy is going off a cliff.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: TVC15 on November 20, 2008, 06:49:14 PM
btw, the car companies can't really go into chapter 11 at this point. There's no lenders out there in this environment that are going to fork out the loans for debtor in poession financing given that it will take years for chapter 11 to untangle and even then they might not make it out. It's either government intervention or the midwest will face great depression era unemployment.

If we bail out the auto companies, the government had better be able to draw hard rules, like no more outsourcing of jobs for a set number of years.  Last night, Michael Moore (I know, I know) said that GM is currently building a 300 million dollar factory in Russia to outsource jobs to.  If that's the sort of shit bailout money will go to, fuck 'em.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: AdmiralViscen on November 20, 2008, 06:51:34 PM
Pretty sure the Russian auto plant is to serve the Russian market, which has been growing at a rapid pace and which GM has been riding the wave of.

edit: Yes, the plant will build the Chevy Captiva (Euro only), Opel Antara (Euro only,) and Chevy Cruze (Europe only until a year later when production begins in the US)

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/11/07/224691.html



I don't know, there was an article in the WSJ today about how foreign manufacturers are having an increasing presence in the U.S. I could see some of them buying liquidated assets on the cheap and then employing non-union employees. Nomura, the japanese bank, is actually doing this right now

Even with the imports increasing presence here they still employ something like
10% of the number of people employed by the big 3.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: TVC15 on November 20, 2008, 06:55:21 PM
Pretty sure the Russian auto plant is to serve the Russian market, which has been growing at a rapid pace and which GM has been riding the wave of.

edit: Yes, the plant will build the Chevy Captiva (Euro only), Opel Antara (Euro only,) and Chevy Cruze (Europe only until a year later when production begins in the US)

Alright, disregard that part.  I'd still say fuck them if they plan on continuing to send jobs overseas post-bailout, though.  Any company that takes bailout money should be the governments bitch in some regard.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: AdmiralViscen on November 20, 2008, 06:57:45 PM
GM doesn't import a lot of carsfrom overseas. They do make some in Canada and Mexico, but those still use 95% American-produced parts. The only overseas imports I can think of at GM are the Chevy Aveo, Saturn Astra and the Pontiac G8.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: y2kev on November 20, 2008, 06:59:53 PM
I've made my peace with outsourcing because fighting for something you don't have comparative advantage in is something that only is going to produce massive losses eventually anyway, but the big problem is that the gubmint has not provided any incentive for new industries in which WE have the comparative advantage to spring up.

This country doesn't MAKE anything in which it has an advantage anymore, wtf. We make things we suck at making and we make money off money. Well the second thing went to hell and now we're seeing the first explode in our faces.

I understand this is a fairly lolbertopian way of looking at things-- which kind of makes me feel dirty-- and it's very simplified, but overall I really see an opportunity for this country in "green" industries...that's going to be what pulls us out of this. It sure isn't going to be us relying on our endemic manufacturing that's for sure.

something else I found was interesting is that it turns out only like 12% of the nation's workforce is unionized now?
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: ToxicAdam on November 20, 2008, 07:53:50 PM
The Catholic Church is eating this economic recession up. Finally, a problem that can drive people back to churches.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aGSJzqaJm_b0&refer=europe
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 08:50:47 PM
now we are asking autocratic petrol states for aid:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081120/bs_afp/financeeconomyusgulf_081120072928;_ylt=As8HYF6PR0TsbvJOoU6Ff0es0NUE

Quote
KUWAIT CITY (AFP) – The United States has asked four oil-rich Gulf states for close to 300 billion dollars to help it curb the global financial meltdown, Kuwait's daily Al-Seyassah reported Thursday.

Quoting "highly informed" sources, the daily said Washington has asked Saudi Arabia for 120 billion dollars, the United Arab Emirates for 70 billion dollars, Qatar for 60 billion dollars and was seeking 40 billion dollars from Kuwait.

Al-Seyassah said Washington sought the amount as "financial aid" to face the fallout of the financial crisis and help prevent its economy from sliding into a painful recession.

The daily said the United States plans to use the funds to help the ailing automobile industry , banks and other companies suffering from the global financial turmoil.

The four nations, all members of OPEC, produce together 14 million barrels of oil per day, around half of the cartel's production and about 17 percent of world supplies.

The four states are estimated to have amassed close to 1.5 trillion dollars in surplus in the past six years due to high oil prices that rocketed above 147 dollars in July before sliding to just above 50 dollars.

The daily also said that the United States has asked Kuwait to forgive its Iraqi debt estimated at around 16 billion dollars.

Can we go ahead and kill the rich people yet?
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: HyperZoneWasAwesome on November 20, 2008, 09:11:30 PM
I really see an opportunity for this country in "green" industries...that's going to be what pulls us out of this. It sure isn't going to be us relying on our endemic manufacturing that's for sure.
I too have some big hope for the enviornmental solutions industry, one that's been waiting for decades to take off.  The biggest problem though is that nearly all the companies that are already good at green tech, green power, aren't American companies.

Another thing you can blame Regan for was he killed off any subsidies towards developing cleaner technology (Carter put solar panels on the roof of the white house, Regan threw them away).  Now the countries that have been developing solar and wind and everything else are in Europe and Japan.  By the sheer force of our (now rapidly dwindling) market we can create some big opportunities here in America for green industries, but there's no way we can lead the world, and there's no way that it can happen at all soon enough to soften the current crises.  Its gonna take years before we've got our shit together enough to make a substantial difference in America's economy.

That's not to say we shouldn't do it, we should be going after green industry at full speed.  But we've lost many valuable years not building the foundations for it and I fear our first serious attempts at bringing this country into a more sustainable era are going to fall flat just because we're going to be making up lots of expensive policy as we go along.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Human Snorenado on November 20, 2008, 09:20:39 PM
Can we go ahead and kill the rich people yet?

I've been building a guillotine for weeks!  Almost done and ready to proceed to the testing phase, somebody round up some hedge fund managers for me.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 20, 2008, 09:45:48 PM
Those who haven't seen it should watch this. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279)

It's long, but you'll puke.

It's like we are in the times when the fake money has to be repaid. All that money lost on Wall street goes to someone else. It doesn't' vanish. Or does it at a cheaper price?
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 09:59:19 PM
Those who haven't seen it should watch this. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279)

That video is like totally

(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc315/fragamemnon/ronpaulisbatman.gif)(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc315/fragamemnon/ronpaulisbatman.gif)(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc315/fragamemnon/ronpaulisbatman.gif)
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fresh Prince on November 20, 2008, 10:09:49 PM
I'm no economist (but when has that been indicated good objective thought lately) but yeah this is going a depression.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: DJ_Tet on November 20, 2008, 10:14:52 PM
fuck this country and planet.  Let's go to mars or some shit.

lol what did this planet ever do besides give us everything?

Fuck countries and corporations.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Cheebs on November 20, 2008, 10:23:07 PM
I'm no economist (but when has that been indicated good objective thought lately) but yeah this is going a depression.
No it won't. It's a recession. A really really really bad recession. But this is no depression. We won't be lining up in the streets for pieces of bread.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fresh Prince on November 20, 2008, 10:26:16 PM
I don't know anything about the economy. I am acting like Joe the Plumber and am just saying that Obama is a communist and this is going to be a depression.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Van Cruncheon on November 20, 2008, 10:28:18 PM
it's not a depression -- in fact, we're experiencing deflation, and the dollar remains (relatively) strong. it will simply be the worst recession on the record.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 10:46:00 PM
it's not a depression -- in fact, we're experiencing deflation, and the dollar remains (relatively) strong. it will simply be the worst recession on the record.

There is still crushing demand for our treasury securities. Now's the time to auction a ton of money and go into massive infrastructure build mode IMO.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Van Cruncheon on November 20, 2008, 11:06:31 PM
the faint upside is that this whole recession is a giant burn on the ron paul set
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Bocsius on November 20, 2008, 11:16:58 PM
At least gasoline is back in the realm of being reasonably affordable, so it costs less money to go pick up unemployment benefits and food stamps. Win!
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 20, 2008, 11:23:48 PM
Those who haven't seen it should watch this. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279)

That video is like totally

(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc315/fragamemnon/ronpaulisbatman.gif)(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc315/fragamemnon/ronpaulisbatman.gif)(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc315/fragamemnon/ronpaulisbatman.gif)

I completely respect you input Frag as I admit that you know more about the situation. Is this the tinfoil hat way of things or is the money created greater than the actual money that exists to the US banks?
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Human Snorenado on November 20, 2008, 11:26:14 PM
the faint upside is that this whole recession is a giant burn on the ron paul set

He looked so lost earlier this week when Congress was grilling Paulson and Bernanke.  He literally used his entire 5 minutes to rail at Bernanke about the Gold Standard, and Bernanke probably had to physically restrain himself from laughing at "Dr." Paul.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 20, 2008, 11:28:34 PM
At least gasoline is back in the realm of being reasonably affordable, so it costs less money to go pick up unemployment benefits and food stamps. Win!

If you read the paper today, its as if the cost relative to the value of goods = deflation? Huge profits aren't being made because of what the people are willing to pay for something = deflation? After mass inflation, a sudden drop in price equals a bad thing? i"m getting conflicting reports here. :maf
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 11:30:29 PM
At least gasoline is back in the realm of being reasonably affordable, so it costs less money to go pick up unemployment benefits and food stamps. Win!

Falling gas prices are definitely a form of economic stimulus. Given the other economic conditions its not going to spur on a new boom in SUVs so the downsides to higher gas prices aren't really there at all. IS NICE.

Quote
the faint upside is that this whole recession is a giant burn on the ron paul set

really need to just throw their ideology onto the ashpile of history.

Quote
Is this the tinfoil hat way of things or is the money created greater than the actual money that exists to the US banks?

It's tinfoil essentially, right from the federal reserve hatin' gold standard folk.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: y2kev on November 20, 2008, 11:30:38 PM
We're in a secular recession. It's been trending this way for 9 years now. SUZE ORMAN (my hero) predicts we should enter secular bull market in 2015 :hyper
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 20, 2008, 11:35:26 PM
If you read the paper today, its as if the cost relative to the value of goods = deflation? Huge profits aren't being made because of what the people are willing to pay for something = deflation? After mass inflation, a sudden drop in price equals a bad thing? i"m getting conflicting reports here. :maf

Deflation also can manifest itself through lower aggregate wages and economic activity for goods and services-as total demand goes off the cliff, so must prices in order for businesses to continue to engage in the activity of selling goods and services. We have been seeing monumental asset deflation for quite some time  (years in the housing market, commodities and equities are now in the pooper too), so it's not too surprising that CPI-calculated goods and services are also experiencing some deflation as well.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 20, 2008, 11:38:16 PM
That's fine. Things were over valued IMO anyways.

It takes thousands of people making $8/hr so a few can make millions a year. It's not sustainable. We are seeing it in person today.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Joe Molotov on November 20, 2008, 11:45:46 PM
:bow $1.59 gas :bow2
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 20, 2008, 11:48:48 PM
If you read the paper today, its as if the cost relative to the value of goods = deflation? Huge profits aren't being made because of what the people are willing to pay for something = deflation? After mass inflation, a sudden drop in price equals a bad thing? i"m getting conflicting reports here. :maf

Deflation also can manifest itself through lower aggregate wages and economic activity for goods and services-as total demand goes off the cliff, so must prices in order for businesses to continue to engage in the activity of selling goods and services. We have been seeing monumental asset deflation for quite some time  (years in the housing market, commodities and equities are now in the pooper too), so it's not too surprising that CPI-calculated goods and services are also experiencing some deflation as well.


Over valuing = greater commission. The people involved, realtors and banks, had everything to gain and nothing to lose. Banks still own the property if there is a foreclosure. Initial payments to banks by loan applicants ,98% interest for years, became overwhelming when banks jacked the rate when the variable hit to make people have to pay a ton more interest.

A lot of people payed more in RENT to these banks than they were lead to believe. Now the banks are crying poor because the "rent" stopped. smh
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fresh Prince on November 20, 2008, 11:50:45 PM
It will take a few years but demand from China and India is going to come back with a vengeance.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Mandark on November 21, 2008, 12:03:34 AM
The Wall Street Journal just told me what the real cause of the economic crisis is:

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The war on Christmas! (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122714101083742715.html)
[close]


Thanks a lot, Rupert Murdoch!
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on November 21, 2008, 12:05:01 AM
With the way a few of you are acting, its like the Dow is down to 1000.

Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Van Cruncheon on November 21, 2008, 12:06:42 AM
that article can NOT be for real. did someone give pd a job at the wsj?
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: y2kev on November 21, 2008, 12:08:46 AM
We still haven't seen a really high volume sell off like we should before a "real" depression. That's kind of striking-- lots of volatility but relatively small volume. We need like a big ole 3000 pt crash before we're truly fucked.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Mandark on November 21, 2008, 12:16:07 AM
that article can NOT be for real. did someone give pd a job at the wsj?

Look at the biographical blurb on the side of the page.  He's been nominated for a Pulitzer!  Twice!
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fragamemnon on November 21, 2008, 12:28:02 AM
With the way a few of you are acting, its like the Dow is down to 1000.

for a lot of fourty and fifty-something workers with sizable IRAs and 401ks and no actual "real" pensions, the difference in DOW 7000 and DOW 1000 is very little-either way, their retirement nest egg is fucked and unlikely to recover enough capital to meet their planning goals.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: ToxicAdam on November 21, 2008, 12:39:26 AM
(http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/files/2008-november/four_bears_large.gif)

That chart is based on the S&P, considered by some as the "true" barometer of our economy.


The thing that concerns me the most about this recession is that personal debt is at an all-time high. We are spending more than we are saving. Which indicates that there is a large percentage of people who don't (care or) know how to budget their money. All of this free credit that has poured into our system over the past decade or so has just warped everyone's sensabilities.

Here's another wierd article from the UK. The Chancellor is considering FORCING banks to lend to small businesses and families.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1087994/Darling-threatens-FORCE-banks-lend-firms-families.html

Even scarier...

Quote
At present around 43 firms, from one-man bands to giants employing thousands of workers, are collapsing every day.

Business lobby groups warned yesterday they fear the number could rocket to 140 a day if the Government and the banks do not send a lifeboat


Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: y2kev on November 21, 2008, 02:21:13 AM
Citi is about to choke  :o
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: TVC15 on November 21, 2008, 05:11:50 AM
Citi is about to choke  :o

So will I be able to get away with not paying my $1100 credit card debt to them?

Of course not!
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: siamesedreamer on November 21, 2008, 12:14:40 PM
Dude I know from another board who has worked on Wall Street for 30 years:

Quote
It is a depression.

I thought we may have been putting in a bottom, but I am frankly now of the opinion that this is not an economic cycle period, but the start of an era of negligible growth and high unemployment.

I have posted for years that I felt the best part of our nation's economy peaked in the 90s and our children would not have it as good as we did. I was unprepared for the speed with which things came unraveled.

As bad as stocks are, and companies...the real worry is two fold:

-govt deficits at Federal, State and local levels. They are very slow to adjust due to the entrenched stregth of unions, but we have promised them benefits we are no longer remotely capable of delivering. There will be massive layoffs and restructuring of public sector compensation. These areas are fat, inefficient and bloated. Altering them will be painful. These people are poorly situated for private sector.

-retirees. So much wealth has been destroyed. People were hardly well postioned for retirement before this depression. Now it is unmanageable. Govts do not have the monies to help.

The plus side...say goodbye to illegal immigration. Americans will soon be begging for the manual labor jobs they have shunned for decades. There will be no work here for people to sneak into this country for.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on November 21, 2008, 12:19:08 PM
Shit, if only someone was talking about economics during the presidential election this time last year...
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on November 21, 2008, 12:21:08 PM
You guys can go ahead and apologize to me. I wont hold it against you as long as I get unleppered.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 21, 2008, 01:24:36 PM
"The only thing I know about capitalism is that the next letter after a period should be bigger."
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Mandark on November 21, 2008, 01:33:18 PM
The real worry is public sector unions?  Okay.  Surprised he didn't mention the minimum wage.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Brehvolution on November 21, 2008, 01:36:03 PM
I keep hearing about worker concessions. Why do I never hear anything about management concessions?
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: siamesedreamer on November 21, 2008, 01:40:22 PM
The real worry is public sector unions?  Okay.  Surprised he didn't mention the minimum wage.

He's probably the most unbiased poster I've ever seen on any message board. A true independent (although he has voted for the DEM potus nominee 4 out of the last 5 times). So, I usually take him at his word.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on November 21, 2008, 01:40:46 PM
I keep hearing about worker concessions. Why do I never hear anything about management concessions?

 :lol

Oh you
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fresh Prince on November 21, 2008, 03:53:21 PM
Some nobody billionair guy in Australia:
Retail billionaire says charity is 'waste'
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24688901-421,00.html

Quote
Fairfax newspapers reported today that in the book Mr Harvey said: "You could go out and give a million dollars to a charity tomorrow to help the homeless.

"It helped to keep them alive, but did it help our society? No.

"Society might have been better off without them but we are supposed to look after the disadvantaged and so we do it. But it doesn't help the society."

Mr Harvey, the founder of the Harvey Norman retail chain, said the group had given money to charities, adding: "At the end of the day, the more quality individuals you develop in the community, the better off the community should be."
Someone to make FoC proud.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on November 21, 2008, 03:57:04 PM
You can say that society is responsible for the homeless or jobless all you want, but you cant say that any individual is. So why should individuals be punished. That being said, I donated enough clothes to goodwill so I wont have to pay any taxes this year.

Goodwill is better run that the government so I might as well give it to someone who will actually use the stuff wisely.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: MyNameIsMethodis on November 21, 2008, 03:58:41 PM
Citi is about to choke  :o

So will I be able to get away with not paying my $1100 credit card debt to them?

Dude I was wishing the same thing  :lol
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fresh Prince on November 21, 2008, 04:02:41 PM
You can say that society is responsible for the homeless or jobless all you want, but you cant say that any individual is. So why should individuals be punished. That being said, I donated enough clothes to goodwill so I wont have to pay any taxes this year.

Goodwill is better run that the government so I might as well give it to someone who will actually use the stuff wisely.
He says nothing about government or taxes. Just about charities. 
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on November 21, 2008, 04:03:47 PM
You can say that society is responsible for the homeless or jobless all you want, but you cant say that any individual is. So why should individuals be punished. That being said, I donated enough clothes to goodwill so I wont have to pay any taxes this year.

Goodwill is better run that the government so I might as well give it to someone who will actually use the stuff wisely.
He says nothing about government or taxes. Just about charities. 

Im talking about them bitch. Shit listen up son.

Hes talking about why giving shit to homeless people doesnt help society and then I elaborate because someone mentioned my name.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: Fresh Prince on November 21, 2008, 04:11:19 PM
Okay.
Title: Re: 2 Great 2 Depressing watch: Dow closes lower than 8,000!
Post by: brawndolicious on November 21, 2008, 04:35:49 PM
Im talking about them bitch. Shit listen up son.
Hes talking about why giving shit to homeless people doesnt help society and then I elaborate because someone mentioned my name.
What do you consider "helping society"?  Why would you consider a homeless person (singular) a negative?