THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Rman on March 03, 2009, 12:29:53 PM

Title: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Rman on March 03, 2009, 12:29:53 PM: And by hate I mean are you disgusted by some of America's backward trends and practices.

For me, I'm disgusted at our immigration policy. Many skilled and educated workers from India, China, and like and denied visas and opportunities for citizenship due to asinine laws passed in the wake of 9/11. It's ridiculous because natural born citizens are not filling the gaps left in key technical industries like engineering. Maine is basically training doctors to be dentists due to labor shortage in dentistry, for example. Yet our immigration policy is shutting out ambitious, aspiring professionals from schools of engineering, dentistry, and the like.

Other gripes:
Lack of major infrastructure spending--our power grid is a relic.
Ignorance--we reelected Bush twice. That's all that needs to be said. Most natural born Americans would fail the immigration test for example.
Universal Healthcare--are people aware that most of the opposition to universal healthcare originates from the insurance and pharma lobbies? Yet people just continue to parrot tired old arguments of against it.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on March 03, 2009, 12:38:27 PM: I never "hate" my country or anyone in general. I'm constantly disappointed in my country, as everyone probably is now and then. Traveling the world or knowing people from other countries makes you appreciate it even more.

:smug
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Rman on March 03, 2009, 12:41:02 PM: Quote from: Phoenix Dark on March 03, 2009, 12:38:27 PM
I never "hate" my country or anyone in general. I'm constantly disappointed in my country, as everyone probably is now and then. Traveling the world or knowing people from other countries makes you appreciate it even more.

:smug
I'd admit the use of hyperbole in the thread title. Disappointment is a more accurate. American freedoms are still amazing, especially in the scope of historical context.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Fragamemnon on March 03, 2009, 12:41:13 PM: Nation of complete cowards, content to wallow in inequality for the sake of fake "stability". I might not outright hate the country, but I am amazed by its populace's unwillingness to get their hands dirty from time to time.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Cheebs on March 03, 2009, 12:42:07 PM: Quote from: Rman on March 03, 2009, 12:29:53 PM
Lack of major infrastructure spending--our power grid is a relic.

That is getting an improvement under Obama now, still not enough money but it's a good start.

Quote from: Rman on March 03, 2009, 12:29:53 PM
Ignorance--we reelected Bush twice. That's all that needs to be said. Most natural born Americans would fail the immigration test for example. just continue to parrot tired old arguments of against it.
And then we elected Obama, by a huge margin compared to Bush. Most Americans see Bush as a failure, many made a mistake in 00/04 but they have redeemed themselves.

Quote from: Rman on March 03, 2009, 12:29:53 PM
Universal Healthcare--are people aware that most of the opposition to universal healthcare originates from the insurance and pharma lobbies? Yet people just continue to parrot tired old arguments of against it.
We are going to make a lot of major strides in this area over the next year.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 12:45:02 PM: Nope. I've travelled to a few European countries, carribean islands and mexico. We are not perfect, but its a pretty great place to live.

People are opposed to national health care because 90% of whatever the government touches turns to shit. It's not being a parrot of big <whatever>, it's just ideas reinforced through years of experience.

If you want UHC. Try it out in California for 7-10 years and see what happens. Or talk to a service person about how government run care runs at VA hospitals for a nice preview.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Rman on March 03, 2009, 12:49:34 PM: Private healthcare is not a lean, mean, efficient machine either, TA. Many private hospitals and health care organizations receive substantial government aid as well.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: TakingBackSunday on March 03, 2009, 12:50:24 PM: I'd rather see what a modern government controlled health care system would be like compared to the flawed system we have now.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Kestastrophe on March 03, 2009, 12:52:48 PM: I hate most people, so it goes without saying that I also hate most Americans. Hypocrits and the ignorant are the worst though (read: neoconservatism)

http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/03/01/porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers/ (http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/03/01/porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers/)
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 12:55:22 PM: Quote
Private healthcare is not a lean, mean, efficient machine either, TA.

There definitely needs to be some sort of price control scheme (ie regulation). It's insane that an ambulance ride can cost a patient 1000 bucks.

Quote
Many private hospitals and health care organizations receive substantial government aid as well.

For good reason, because they don't turn people away.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 12:59:27 PM: Quote
Americans, do you sometimes hate America?

constantly, but i love our potential.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Fragamemnon on March 03, 2009, 01:28:39 PM: Quote from: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 12:55:22 PM
There definitely needs to be some sort of price control scheme (ie regulation). It's insane that an ambulance ride can cost a patient 1000 bucks.

I don't think we are going to realize health care savings/cost reductions without the federal government essentially becoming the lead (but not necessary only) insurer with a public health care option and then bludgeoning the health care system into submission with a carrot-and-stick approach.

If the private sector had the capacity to do it, then they would have already-instead of trying to make more money and pass it along to consumers and shareholders by reducing the cost of procedures, they have for the most part instead made money by rationing and denying care, cherrypicking customers, and extracting colossal premiums.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Tauntaun on March 03, 2009, 01:28:59 PM: Quote from: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 12:59:27 PM
Quote
Americans, do you sometimes hate America?

constantly, but i love our potential.

Do you hate me? :-*
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 01:39:12 PM: Thing is, polling consistently says a majority of Americans want universal health care, TA. Oops.

I hate John McCain. He's a fucking idiot that has made it his goal in life to obsess and bitch over earmarks, which are usually either A) pretty useful programs that might do some good and B) not that much of a fucking piece of legislation to begin with. For example, in the Omnibus bill that just passed the House with the much ballyhooed "OMG 9,000 EARMARKS!!!"... the cost of the earmarks in the bill is a whole 2 percent. TWO. PERCENT. Half of which was requested by Republicans for the love of Christ. So sit down and shut the fuck up, you grumpy old man. If anyone gave a shit about that you would be President and we would all be fucked.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 01:57:54 PM: Quote from: The Card Cheat on March 03, 2009, 01:39:12 PM
Thing is, polling consistently says a majority of Americans want universal health care, TA. Oops.

The majority of Americans don't want gay marriage either. What's your point? Just because the polls favor something doesn't make it right.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 02:10:46 PM: Quote from: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 01:57:54 PM
Quote from: The Card Cheat on March 03, 2009, 01:39:12 PM
Thing is, polling consistently says a majority of Americans want universal health care, TA. Oops.

The majority of Americans don't want gay marriage either. What's your point? Just because the polls favor something doesn't make it right.

Find me a non-rich Canadian or European who would trade their plans for our lack of one.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Robo on March 03, 2009, 02:13:34 PM: I don't hate America, I hate Americans.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: TakingBackSunday on March 03, 2009, 02:16:35 PM: Honestly TCC, I'm with TA on this one. Using polls...eh.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 02:19:22 PM: Quote from: Tauntaun on March 03, 2009, 01:28:59 PM
Quote from: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 12:59:27 PM
Quote
Americans, do you sometimes hate America?

constantly, but i love our potential.

Do you hate me? :-*

i love your pole-tential
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 02:26:14 PM: Quote from: BrandNew on March 03, 2009, 02:16:35 PM
Honestly TCC, I'm with TA on this one. Using polls...eh.

So you're saying you don't think there should be universal health care? Or even meaningful reform along the lines of what Obama proposed during the campaign? Come on, this isn't your sister we're talking about so you don't have to be weird about it.

As for the poll thing, TA said "people are opposed to national health care" which is, in fact, not entirely true. Sure I guess SOME people don't want it, but a majority do.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on March 03, 2009, 02:31:43 PM: i only hate the revenuers, because i figure you have to be a pretty big piece of shit to seek out a job like that in the first place
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: TakingBackSunday on March 03, 2009, 02:32:53 PM: You obviously didn't read my first post then :-\

One of the main reason I supported Obama was his health care stance. I'm just saying using polls to validate your opinion is only a fraction of being able to back something up. Most people polled are dum-dums.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 02:37:24 PM: i think that recent nominations by Obama show that we don't have ENOUGH revenooors
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Eel O'Brian on March 03, 2009, 02:43:17 PM: we have plenty of tax fucks, they just come after guys like me instead of the big bux rollers who keep their own law firms on the payroll

it's a bipartisan hatred, there has been no sitting administration in my memory which has been a friend to the microbusinessman

i'm thinking at a certain point i will just throw my hands up, fake an illness or something, and let everyone else's tax dollars take care of me, so i guess it'll all work out in the end :americasalute
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 03:02:38 PM: Quote from: The Card Cheat on March 03, 2009, 02:10:46 PM
Find me a non-rich Canadian or European who would trade their plans for our lack of one.

Canada/Select European countries != America

Its just not a valid comparison. That's why I suggested that they roll it out in California-only first to work out any problems that may arise.

Quote
As for the poll thing, TA said "people are opposed to national health care" which is, in fact, not entirely true. Sure I guess SOME people don't want it, but a majority do.

I never said this.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on March 03, 2009, 03:03:28 PM: Pretty much.

The biggest beef I have is the anti-intellectual attitude taken towards almost everything. The fact that scientists, engineers, etc. are almost looked at with disdain is a little :'( because our facts don't jive with feel good Republican (and sometimes Democrat) politicians who are continually on the take from big business interests but pretend to be populists.

That and the tax policies a lot of Americans have. They'd rather fix something 10x at $1000 each than fix it once for $5000. Our current economic situation is what it is because Americans wanted to save a few bucks per paycheck. Now we're going to be shelling out far more (plus interest!) than we ever needed to but hey, Ronald Reagan brought down communism!

Plus people that speak in tongues. I think that only exists here or in tribal communities.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: BobbyRobby on March 03, 2009, 03:05:41 PM: yeah, but not as much as i hate every other country.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 03:06:13 PM: Quote from: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 12:45:02 PM
Nope. I've travelled to a few European countries, carribean islands and mexico. We are not perfect, but its a pretty great place to live.

People are opposed to national health care because 90% of whatever the government touches turns to shit. It's not being a parrot of big <whatever>, it's just ideas reinforced through years of experience.

If you want UHC. Try it out in California for 7-10 years and see what happens. Or talk to a service person about how government run care runs at VA hospitals for a nice preview.

Never said? ???
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 03:07:16 PM: TEXP, just on your gut reaction (don't google), did spending on science increase or decrease during the Bush administration?

Quote from: The Card Cheat on March 03, 2009, 03:06:13 PM

Never said? ???

Nobody opposes national health care?

..and 52% said they would support them even if it meant higher taxes and a larger government role ("If It's Broke -- Fix It: A Progressive Response to American's Demand for Major Health Care Reform" Executive Summary, 1/25).

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/36724.php

As a generalized question, "Do you want UHC?" People overwhelmingly are in favor. But when you start to attach consequences to UHC, the numbers drop dramatically to almost 60/40 or 50/50.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 03, 2009, 03:09:21 PM: dp
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Barry Egan on March 03, 2009, 03:30:05 PM: I really do wish we had a culture that promoted basic self-awareness and historical understanding. We are a vulgar, vulgar nation that encourages stupid people to remain ignorant of their betters and foster their own wrong-headed ideologies. Really, a society can't function properly if its best members aren't properly recognized as such. America needs an Icon system that works.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on March 03, 2009, 03:32:24 PM: Our health care system is fucked up, but it's not like UHC is going to be much better if at all. Comparing us to European countries that don't a third of the US's population isn't accurate.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 03:36:21 PM: I don't hate Amercia, but I hate the fucking Yankees and people who think they know how to handle my hard-earned money better than me.

I also hate Bud Selig. And Andrew Sullivan.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: brawndolicious on March 03, 2009, 03:39:24 PM: Well if you look at the average "patriotic" French or American, they're both obnoxious, uninformed, and parochial pieces of shit. I hate any type of nationalism or patriotism and there's a lot of that in America (I lost faith in humanity when Bush was re-elected) so there's is definitely a lot inherently wrong with this nation.

The system is broken imo. Some individuals are fine but most are idiots.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 03:39:51 PM: Quote from: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 03:36:21 PM
I don't hate Amercia, but I hate the fucking Yankees and people who think they know how to handle my hard-earned money better than me.

I also hate Bud Selig. And Andrew Sullivan.

Why do you hate Andrew Sullivan? He at least thinks, which is more than I can say for probably 95% of the so called conservative "intelligentsia". Plus he likes beagles; anyone who likes any sort of hound dog can't be all bad.

With you on the Yankees, although I of course hate the Mets more.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 03:51:28 PM: Sullivan's support for Obama as a self-purported old school "true" conservative was beyond the beyond.

Yeah, he hated Bush. Hates Palin. Thought McCain was mental. Yada yada yada. Doesn't mean you have to jump off a cliff for a guy like Obama. Now he actually has the gall to complain about Obama's budget. Like nobody could see what was going to happen in that regard from a solar system away.

Obama could never have been an option for someone who claims to be a conservative. Especially when he was going to have a near super-majority in Congress. He could've voted third party like me, but chose to be Obama's biggest internet cheerleader.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on March 03, 2009, 04:04:59 PM: Quote from: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 03:51:28 PM
Sullivan's support for Obama as a self-purported old school "true" conservative was beyond the beyond.

Yeah, he hated Bush. Hates Palin. Thought McCain was mental. Yada yada yada. Doesn't mean you have to jump off a cliff for a guy like Obama. Now he actually has the gall to complain about Obama's budget. Like nobody could see what was going to happen in that regard from a solar system away.

Obama could never have been an option for someone who claims to be a conservative. Especially when he was going to have a near super-majority in Congress. He could've voted third party like me, but chose to be Obama's biggest internet cheerleader.

i lol'd
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 04:07:23 PM: ???
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 04:17:53 PM: Sullivan can't vote. I'm not sure that's what pd's laughing about, but yeah he can't vote due to some weird rule about citizenship and hiv positive status.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 04:19:34 PM: Really? That's fucked up.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on March 03, 2009, 04:20:02 PM: Nah, I'm laughing at the almost righteous indignation in that post. third party lol
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 04:27:28 PM: Why are you hating on Bob Barr? :usacry
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 04:29:52 PM: Quote from: siamesedreamer on March 03, 2009, 04:27:28 PM
Why are you hating on Bob Barr? :usacry

he's a FoC enabler
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 04:32:37 PM: Quote from: Phoenix Dark on March 03, 2009, 04:20:02 PM
Nah, I'm laughing at the almost righteous indignation in that post. third party lol

I can't really quibble with sd over that, seeing as how I vote for Ralph Nader in 2000 and 2004. If the nominee of one of the major parties isn't to your liking and someone else is, why not vote for them? I mean, unless you're in a swing state, which GA definitely WAS NOT in either of those elections.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Tauntaun on March 03, 2009, 04:35:06 PM: If you don't like it then you can just GIIITT OUT! *huff puff* :spiderman
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Diunx on March 03, 2009, 04:36:20 PM: Why the fuck did you guys take the name of our continent to yourself?
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 04:36:52 PM: Quote from: Tauntaun on March 03, 2009, 04:35:06 PM
If you don't like it then you can just GIIITT OUT! *huff puff* :spiderman

I used that line on my conservative cousin the other day. "If you don't support the President, you're not a true American!" Which is verbatim what she said to me after Bush got re-elected in 2004. I think her head probably 'asploded over the phone.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Tauntaun on March 03, 2009, 04:42:06 PM: Quote from: The Card Cheat on March 03, 2009, 04:36:52 PM
Quote from: Tauntaun on March 03, 2009, 04:35:06 PM
If you don't like it then you can just GIIITT OUT! *huff puff* :spiderman

I used that line on my conservative cousin the other day. "If you don't support the President, you're not a true American!" Which is verbatim what she said to me after Bush got re-elected in 2004. I think her head probably 'asploded over the phone.

:lol

spoiler (click to show/hide)
You didn't BrandNew her did you? :o
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Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 05:03:13 PM: Quote from: diunx on March 03, 2009, 04:36:20 PM
Why the fuck did you guys take the name of our continent to yourself?

well we're the united states of america

once we stop pussy footin around and take over the cutely named "provinces" up north they will be Americans
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 03, 2009, 05:20:17 PM: Quote from: Eric P on March 03, 2009, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: diunx on March 03, 2009, 04:36:20 PM
Why the fuck did you guys take the name of our continent to yourself?

well we're the united states of america

once we stop pussy footin around and take over the cutely named "provinces" up north they will be Americans

We should also probably go old school and only give those dusky skinned savages 3/5 of a vote until they prove they're ready for the sweet, sweet air of freedom.
Title: Re: Americans, do you sometimes hate America?
Post by: xnikki118x on March 05, 2009, 12:19:01 AM: I just hate stupid people, many of whom are here in America.