THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 11:40:01 AM

Title: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 11:40:01 AM: Quote

You know how most people are perfectly happy with Apple standard-issue earbuds, white plastic molded around a crappy audio experience? A Stanford professor's informal annual study shows that youngins like the "sizzle sounds" of MP3s.

Each year, Stanford Professor of Music Jonathan Berger does an informal test of his students by playing a bunch of different music in a bunch of different formats. Over email, here's how he told me performs the informal study:

"Students were asked to judge the quality of a variety of compression methods randomly mixed with uncompressed 44.1 KHz audio. The music examples included both orchestral, jazz and rock music. When I first did this I was expecting to hear preferences for uncompressed audio and expecting to see MP3 (at 128, 160 and 192 bit rates) well below other methods (including a proprietary wavelet-based approach and AAC). To my surprise, in the rock examples the MP3 at 128 was preferred. I repeated the experiment over 6 years and found the preference for MP3 - particularly in music with high energy (cymbal crashes, brass hits, etc) rising over time."

In other words, younger people haven't just grown more tolerant of thin, soulless MP3 renditions of their favorite music, they actually like them. Shitty MP3s, even. O'Relly Radar quotes Professor Berger as saying that it's the "sizzle sounds" that people are loving because it's what they're comfortable with. So, yes Virginia, iPods really have killed music. People aren't just ignorant of high quality audio, they actually hate it. Gee, thanks for contributing to the downfall of civilization, Apple. Music is dead, everyone, carry on

http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/the-sizzling-sound-of-music.html
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 11, 2009, 11:44:08 AM: Isn't it just young people not really knowing better?

The same way people learn to acquire the taste for fine cheese, wine, bread, books, movies, etc etc as they grow older. They also develop finer tastes for audio/visual experiences?
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 12:07:57 PM: Quote from: ToxicAdam on March 11, 2009, 11:44:08 AM
Isn't it just young people not really knowing better?

The same way people learn to acquire the taste for fine cheese, wine, bread, books, movies, etc etc as they grow older. They also develop finer tastes for audio/visual experiences?

yes but then you take away another reason for me to hate the young.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: drohne on March 11, 2009, 12:22:32 PM: fuck the young -- and let the pun stand -- but i'd be more worried for music if music was equivalent to sound quality
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Bloodwake on March 11, 2009, 01:41:24 PM: This is depressing.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Rman on March 11, 2009, 02:03:37 PM: Not surprising at all. I mean, most people don't even own a even a decent stereo system. I can't remember the last time I listened to music with decent speakers. It has been all cheap headphones and crappy computer speakers.

Plus, most CDs these days are mastered terribly. Remember the whole Metallica fiasco last year. The master tracks on GH were of better quality than the retail CD.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 02:25:17 PM: i think that's the issue. LA experimental noise band Health spent a large part of an interview ranting about people with shitty laptops listening to myspace's 64kbps mp3s and getting the mistaken impression of that's what music sounds like.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: TEEEPO on March 11, 2009, 02:28:32 PM: i was once told you can't find the fullness of sound provided by the stock iphone earbuds... anywhere.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: T234 on March 11, 2009, 02:29:23 PM: L.I.E.S.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: TEEEPO on March 11, 2009, 02:34:32 PM: i forgot to mention, this was after he tried my sennheiser hd555.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: T234 on March 11, 2009, 02:37:16 PM: W.A.T.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 02:38:43 PM: i was thinking of investing in good at home headphones but don't really know what's out there beyond DJ designed stuff.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Bloodwake on March 11, 2009, 02:41:33 PM: Honestly, I need better headphones. I've heard good things about Skullcandy...
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: TEEEPO on March 11, 2009, 02:41:56 PM: Quote from: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 02:38:43 PM
i was thinking of investing in good at home headphones but don't really know what's out there beyond DJ designed stuff.

sennheiser hd555
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Brehvolution on March 11, 2009, 02:42:26 PM: I believe the borecast is at 64kbps and I think it sounds fine. However, I wouldn't even download a song less than 192.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Bloodwake on March 11, 2009, 02:43:45 PM: I go for CD quality MP3s whenever it's possible. Only a small amount of my music collection is less than 192 kbps.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: tehjaybo on March 11, 2009, 02:49:05 PM: Quote from: Bloodwake on March 11, 2009, 02:41:33 PM
Honestly, I need better headphones. I've heard good things about Skullcandy...

The SC earbuds that I have produce a kind of hollow sound sometimes. But I've heard the full headphones are really nice.

Anyplace I'm listening to music I usually listen on speakers, except at work, where I'm not going to get big headphones for. I'll stick with my SC earbuds.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 02:49:38 PM: Quote from: TEEEPO on March 11, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
Quote from: Eric P on March 11, 2009, 02:38:43 PM
i was thinking of investing in good at home headphones but don't really know what's out there beyond DJ designed stuff.

sennheiser hd555

i've read that they dont' do music that well and have open backs, which is something i don't really like

looking at these after this review
http://reviews.cnet.com/headphones/sennheiser-hd280-pro/4505-7877_7-30235462.html?tag=mncol;txt
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: cool breeze on March 11, 2009, 03:00:30 PM: Open headphones are amazing for home use. After a couple minutes of wearing them, it feels like you aren't wearing headphones at all. I'm assuming they're the same on the 555 as they are on the 595 (that I own.)
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: chronovore on March 17, 2009, 11:58:30 AM: What does "open back" mean in this case?
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Tauntaun on March 17, 2009, 11:59:55 AM: Quote from: chronovore on March 17, 2009, 11:58:30 AM
What does "open back" mean in this case?

That you're gay. :hump

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Seriously gay...

(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/SlinkyT82/tauntaunsmug.gif)
[close]
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Eric P on March 17, 2009, 01:04:22 PM: Quote from: chronovore on March 17, 2009, 11:58:30 AM
What does "open back" mean in this case?

http://www.audiomasterclass.com/arc.cfm?a=should-your-headphones-be-open-or-closed-back

my concern is disturbing others with my music.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Cormacaroni on March 17, 2009, 10:19:20 PM: If the theory is correct (small sample-size etc), it's not just the fault of mp3. Sound engineers have been compressing the shit out of music for decades now to make it FM-radio ready. Everything has to be louder and punchier than everything else on the radio. All the dynamics are squeezed out of the music. Ignore the music for a second and just listen to the sound ranges of something like the Foo Fighters debut and Led Zeppelin IV. The former is all squeezed up into these tight ranges that are designed to make it pop on the radio, but make it sound awful and tinny on good equipment. When the music is DESIGNED to be played this way, 128kb mp3 is the logical compression method. It accentuates the bits that the engineers wanted to be accentuated. :-\ :-X :maf :yuck :(

get off my lawn etc
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: drew on March 17, 2009, 10:26:04 PM: argh im so old and angry argh
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: drew on March 17, 2009, 10:47:18 PM: argh im so young and angry argh
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Bildi on March 17, 2009, 11:24:15 PM: Meh, I generally play all music off my iPod nowadays, even on the stereo at home (using the headphone jack as on outlet what's more :omg). Uncompressed music sounds better in a direct A-B comparison but frankly I just don't notice otherwise.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: OptimoPeach on March 18, 2009, 12:59:33 AM: Quote from: Bloodwake on March 11, 2009, 02:41:33 PM
I've heard good things about Skullcandy...
Someone lied to you.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: brawndolicious on April 02, 2009, 12:17:36 AM: BUMP.

Today I heard Beat It on the radio and thought it was an auto-tuned remix for a couple of minutes.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Fresh Prince on April 02, 2009, 12:22:20 AM: Yeah they remastered it for his History Albums or whatever, made it loud and sucked most of the dynamics out of it.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: billyofcourse on April 02, 2009, 12:46:35 AM: http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD-202-Headphones/dp/B000065BP9/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1238643861&sr=8-1

sennheiser hd202 headphones are what I've been using for the past year or so. Good enough quality for recording and mixing, and definitely good enough for listening. Beats anything I've owned before, and on par with my room mates headphones(which cost him quite a bit more). Price isn't too terrible either.

I'd recommend them if you don't feel like dropping nearly $100 on a set of headphones.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: brawndolicious on April 02, 2009, 01:33:21 AM: Quote from: Fresh Prince on April 02, 2009, 12:22:20 AM
Yeah they remastered it for his History Albums or whatever, made it loud and sucked most of the dynamics out of it.
sad. I honestly thought they were using different instruments or something.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Great Rumbler on April 02, 2009, 01:52:25 AM: I've listened to MP3s of varying quality for years and I have no idea what the article means by "sizzle sounds".
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: BlueTsunami on April 02, 2009, 01:53:20 AM: I'm listening to Metal with some Senn555's and they definitely don't have punch Bass but for $90, its very very good. Very comfortable too but the open design does leak somewhat. But its the type of leak that's bad for someone thats doing something quietly in the same room thats small, or sleeping in the same room. This depends on what your normal level of volume is though, I listen to music moderately high but not nut blasting.

the leaking of sound is actually bad in the opposite, leak in. Sound takes a huge hit if your using these on a train, or in a public space (you would have to crank the sound levels to unsafe levels). I only use these at home, so that doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Cormacaroni on April 02, 2009, 09:36:49 PM: Since the topic is still alive, here is some concrete info on what I was ranting about above, found via the AV Club:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Cd_loudness_trend-something.gif)
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on April 02, 2009, 10:17:55 PM: Quote from: dcharlie on April 02, 2009, 12:42:44 AM
re: headphones.

i got the Senn 650HD's for home use. I fapped.

now you're making me want a good pair of headphones

I'm tempted to get the 595s at $186.36:

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD595-HD-595-Premier-Headphone/dp/B0001FTVE0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1238720089&sr=1-2

But then another part of me wants to just go, "this is the last pair of headphones you will ever buy, don't puss out" and get the 600s or 650s:

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD600-Over-Ear-Professional-Headphones/dp/B00004SY4H/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1238721192&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-Audiophile-Dynamic-Stereo-Headphone/dp/B00018MSNI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1238721192&sr=1-2

$294.15 for the 600s seems like a good sweetspot - I can't imagine the $461.00 650s are really 50% better

This review compares the 595s and 600s - says the 600s are better but maybe not "worth it" better
http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD600-Over-Ear-Professional-Headphones/product-reviews/B00004SY4H/ref=cm_cr_dp_synop?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R40KMJWRJAQXG
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Cormacaroni on April 02, 2009, 10:27:08 PM: I have the HD600s, they're fantastic. Incredibly comfortable to wear for hours on end, rich, lush sound. No, the 650s are not 50% better from everything I've heard. I paid 50,000 yen or so for mine so $300 strikes me as a bargain :)

If it makes you feel any better, Sennheiser is coming out with the HD800s soon, which are available for pre-order at $1,300. (although this will probably lead to a trickle-down price cut for all their other high-end headphones...)
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on April 02, 2009, 10:38:33 PM: Quote from: Cormacaroni on April 02, 2009, 10:27:08 PM
I have the HD600s, they're fantastic. Incredibly comfortable to wear for hours on end, rich, lush sound. No, the 650s are not 50% better from everything I've heard. I paid 50,000 yen or so for mine so $300 strikes me as a bargain :)

If it makes you feel any better, Sennheiser is coming out with the HD800s soon, which are available for pre-order at $1,300. (although this will probably lead to a trickle-down price cut for all their other high-end headphones...)

$1400!

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD800-Premier-Headphone/dp/B001OTZ8DA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1238722558&sr=8-1

(http://swipelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/sennheiser-hd-800-premier-headphones.jpg)
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Cormacaroni on April 02, 2009, 10:46:28 PM: i saw 'em for 1,300-and-something a week ago, who cares. go buy the HD600s
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Cormacaroni on April 02, 2009, 11:55:21 PM: There is no such thing as 'the ultimate headphone' that you can buy and never be tempted by anything else. There's only the best available at that time. At some point, the HD800s will be the budget model and sell for $99. But there will still be a model that costs upwards of $500 that every reviewer creams their jeans over. Personally, I still love the HD600s - I can't find anything to dislike about them. If I upgrade the rest of my audio gear, the HD600 will sound better again for quite some time. I'd need to spend thousands of dollars on other stuff before they became any kind of bottleneck. It makes no sense to pair a top of the line SLI graphics card with a crappy CPU and 1gb of sluggish RAM. By the time you upgrade the rest of your shit, the card will be out of date again. DC had a great amp already so pretty much any headphones he bought for less than what he paid for the HD650s would have done it a disservice. Not everyone is in that situation.

Also worth bearing in mind: these things hold their value pretty well because audiophiles tweak and 'upgrade' constantly (inverted commas used because most of the time, the upgrades are all in their mind...). People will buy the HD800s, love them for a week, then turn on them with furious anger and sell them on eBay for $1,375. So if you feel you want to upgrade later on, it's going to be a lot easier than with PC gear.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: TEEEPO on April 03, 2009, 12:04:41 AM: Quote from: Eric P on March 17, 2009, 01:04:22 PM
Quote from: chronovore on March 17, 2009, 11:58:30 AM
What does "open back" mean in this case?

http://www.audiomasterclass.com/arc.cfm?a=should-your-headphones-be-open-or-closed-back

my concern is disturbing others with my music.

i wouldn't recommend an open back for anything other then studio/home use.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on April 03, 2009, 03:16:23 AM: 600s bought! I sold like $300 worth of stuff on Amazon last week so it was easy to justify.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Cormacaroni on April 03, 2009, 03:24:20 AM: Awesome! Now go steal a mannikin's head to display them on when not in use. My wife won't let me do this :'(
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: BlueTsunami on April 03, 2009, 04:25:48 AM: Start downloading FLAC tracks off of What.cd :drool
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on April 09, 2009, 12:04:55 AM: got em today!

they sound amazingly clear, very happy so far. a little low in the mids but I hear after you burn them in for about 50 hours they improve in that regard

I'm thinking I should maybe get a small headphone amp to use when at my PC - the default output is a bit quiet - on older, properly mastered tracks I can turn them up to 100% without coming close to blowing out my eardrums.

any headphone amp recommendations?
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Don Flamenco on April 09, 2009, 12:10:24 AM: If someone gave me a Steely Dan album through high quality, top of the line speakers and In Utero on a tape in a boom box when I was 14, I would go for In Utero. I like my HD-555s better these days, of course. these results probably aren't completely attributable to kids not knowing what sounds better...they just prefer stuff to not sound as clinical or refined.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: BlueTsunami on April 09, 2009, 10:33:29 AM: Quote from: Synthesizer Patel on April 09, 2009, 12:04:55 AM
got em today!

they sound amazingly clear, very happy so far. a little low in the mids but I hear after you burn them in for about 50 hours they improve in that regard

I'm thinking I should maybe get a small headphone amp to use when at my PC - the default output is a bit quiet - on older, properly mastered tracks I can turn them up to 100% without coming close to blowing out my eardrums.

any headphone amp recommendations?

I've heard good things about this cheaper amp

http://cgi.ebay.com/Biosciencegeek-Headphone-Amplifier-cMOY-Premium-Amp_W0QQitemZ130298095723QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item130298095723&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1234|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Its one of those "In a tin can" amps that's sort of portable. Of course that's a lower end amp, I'm not sure of any actual legit mass produced amps.
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on April 09, 2009, 11:26:53 AM: Quote from: BlueTsunami on April 09, 2009, 10:33:29 AM
Quote from: Synthesizer Patel on April 09, 2009, 12:04:55 AM
got em today!

they sound amazingly clear, very happy so far. a little low in the mids but I hear after you burn them in for about 50 hours they improve in that regard

I'm thinking I should maybe get a small headphone amp to use when at my PC - the default output is a bit quiet - on older, properly mastered tracks I can turn them up to 100% without coming close to blowing out my eardrums.

any headphone amp recommendations?

I've heard good things about this cheaper amp

http://cgi.ebay.com/Biosciencegeek-Headphone-Amplifier-cMOY-Premium-Amp_W0QQitemZ130298095723QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item130298095723&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72:1234|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

Its one of those "In a tin can" amps that's sort of portable. Of course that's a lower end amp, I'm not sure of any actual legit mass produced amps.

excellent, thanks and ordered. the guys lives like 100 miles from me, so it shouldn't take long to arrive at all.

I had done some research and figured out that what I wanted was a cMOY, but eBay is flooded with shitty ones. This guy seems to have fairly legit street cred and looks to build a high-quality device. (his "about me" text also mentions he built his own personal cMOY to the specifications of the HD-600s)
Title: Re: All the more reason to hate Teenagers and Apple
Post by: chronovore on April 10, 2009, 05:28:39 AM: Quote from: Cormacaroni on April 03, 2009, 03:24:20 AM
Awesome! Now go steal a mannikin's head to display them on when not in use. My wife won't let me do this :'(

First you start by telling her you need a RealDoll to display the headphones. If she agrees, you're in like Flynn. If she balks, fall back to the mannequin head, and you'll appear entirely reasonable.