THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Ganhyun on March 24, 2009, 12:16:12 PM

Title: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Ganhyun on March 24, 2009, 12:16:12 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510287,00.html

http://billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/03/23/news/state/20-wilson_s.txt

So apparantly, the woman was charged originally in September 2004, but the charged were dropped because of lack of evidence. However, she was convicted of tampering with evidence and is currently serving a sentence for that.

Last year (May 29th) the charges were refiled for murder, citing new evidence. But, for reasons unknown, the defense wasn't given a 600 page document on the new evidence until December 5, just days before the trial was set to begin. So a request for a delay was granted so the defense could review the evidence. Now, because of that, a judge ruled that the charges must be dismissed and are not able to be refiled.



my thoughts: looks like someone screwed up on delivering the evidence like they were supposed to. But I don't see why they can't refile the charges since there was no trial, it was delayed. I understand the right to a speedy and fair trial, but I also know there is NO statute of limitations on murder either.

Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 24, 2009, 12:17:39 PM
I am totally comfortable having such an obviously well run legal system sentence people to death.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: brawndolicious on March 24, 2009, 12:55:17 PM
The death penalty makes sense if you know that that type of person will kill again (even in prison).

I'm guessing that rewriting the terms of a "speedy" trial would be too much trouble since it is kind of in the bill of rights so the judge was forced to follow the law word for word.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Tauntaun on March 24, 2009, 12:56:46 PM
Ganhyun she's gonna come and cut you mang, watch out.  :ninja

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Cut her first.  :punch
[close]
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Great Rumbler on March 24, 2009, 01:55:27 PM
It's so stupid that technicalities like this can bring down an entire case.

Give the woman some monetary compensation for her time and drag her back into court!
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 24, 2009, 01:59:02 PM
disclaimer: Canadian law student

Constitutions are pretty vague and open-ended. As a result, it's up to the courts to fill in the gaps created by the original drafters. The courts must define and explain, for example, what a right to a speedy trial is and determine the specific test for determining whether that right has been violated. The US Supreme Court developed such a test in Barker v. Wingo

Quote
   1. Length of Delay: A delay of a year or more from the date on which the speedy trial right "attaches" (the date of arrest or indictment, whichever first occurs) was termed "presumptively prejudicial", but the Court has never explicitly ruled that any absolute time limit applies.
   2. Reason for the delay: The prosecution may not excessively delay the trial for its own advantage, but a trial may be delayed to secure the presence of an absent witness or other practical considerations.
   3. Time and manner in which the defendant has asserted his right: If a defendant acquiesces to the delay when it works to his own benefit, he cannot later claim that he has been unduly delayed.
   4. Degree of prejudice to the defendant which the delay has caused.

In this case, the delay was over a year, the delay was strictly for the benefit of the prosecution, and it prejudiced the defendant's case. Clearly, the defendant is not acquiescing to the delay. consequently, her constitutional right to a speedy trial has been violated.

When this right has been violated, According to the Supreme Court in Strunk v. United States, the judge must dismiss the case or, if a conviction has been reached, it must be overturned. The judge in this case was bound by a higher court.

This is no mere technicality. The right to a speedy criminal trial is a fundamental right protecting us from malicious state prosecution. Prosecutors should know the law and should know that they can't endlessly delay a trial for their own benefit.

Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 24, 2009, 02:26:50 PM
oops, I missed this.

but I also know there is NO statute of limitations on murder either.


That's not the issue in this case because a statute of limitations deals with the initiation of legal proceedings. The issue in this case deals with a right to a speedy trial. Once legal proceedings have been initiated by the state, the state must not  unlawfully delay the proceedings to prejudice the accused's case.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 24, 2009, 02:38:37 PM
by the by, here's my card:
(http://break.o1.bitgravity.com/break/holytaco/www/sites/default/files/need_a_lawyer.jpg)
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on March 24, 2009, 02:43:26 PM
I keep mis-reading the threat title as "Woman beats Murder Rape"  ???
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Great Rumbler on March 24, 2009, 02:49:12 PM
disclaimer: Canadian law student

Constitutions are pretty vague and open-ended. As a result, it's up to the courts to fill in the gaps created by the original drafters. The courts must define and explain, for example, what a right to a speedy trial is and determine the specific test for determining whether that right has been violated. The US Supreme Court developed such a test in Barker v. Wingo

Quote
   1. Length of Delay: A delay of a year or more from the date on which the speedy trial right "attaches" (the date of arrest or indictment, whichever first occurs) was termed "presumptively prejudicial", but the Court has never explicitly ruled that any absolute time limit applies.
   2. Reason for the delay: The prosecution may not excessively delay the trial for its own advantage, but a trial may be delayed to secure the presence of an absent witness or other practical considerations.
   3. Time and manner in which the defendant has asserted his right: If a defendant acquiesces to the delay when it works to his own benefit, he cannot later claim that he has been unduly delayed.
   4. Degree of prejudice to the defendant which the delay has caused.

In this case, the delay was over a year, the delay was strictly for the benefit of the prosecution, and it prejudiced the defendant's case. Clearly, the defendant is not acquiescing to the delay. consequently, her constitutional right to a speedy trial has been violated.

When this right has been violated, According to the Supreme Court in Strunk v. United States, the judge must dismiss the case or, if a conviction has been reached, it must be overturned. The judge in this case was bound by a higher court.

This is no mere technicality. The right to a speedy criminal trial is a fundamental right protecting us from malicious state prosecution. Prosecutors should know the law and should know that they can't endlessly delay a trial for their own benefit.

Okay, so it's not "stupid", but it's still a technicality. Unless something changes, she's scott free because someone at the prosecutor's office didn't send the evidence to the defense when they were supposed to and had nothing to do with whether or not the evidence proved her guilty or innocent.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 24, 2009, 03:07:16 PM
disclaimer: Canadian law student

Constitutions are pretty vague and open-ended. As a result, it's up to the courts to fill in the gaps created by the original drafters. The courts must define and explain, for example, what a right to a speedy trial is and determine the specific test for determining whether that right has been violated. The US Supreme Court developed such a test in Barker v. Wingo

Quote
   1. Length of Delay: A delay of a year or more from the date on which the speedy trial right "attaches" (the date of arrest or indictment, whichever first occurs) was termed "presumptively prejudicial", but the Court has never explicitly ruled that any absolute time limit applies.
   2. Reason for the delay: The prosecution may not excessively delay the trial for its own advantage, but a trial may be delayed to secure the presence of an absent witness or other practical considerations.
   3. Time and manner in which the defendant has asserted his right: If a defendant acquiesces to the delay when it works to his own benefit, he cannot later claim that he has been unduly delayed.
   4. Degree of prejudice to the defendant which the delay has caused.

In this case, the delay was over a year, the delay was strictly for the benefit of the prosecution, and it prejudiced the defendant's case. Clearly, the defendant is not acquiescing to the delay. consequently, her constitutional right to a speedy trial has been violated.

When this right has been violated, According to the Supreme Court in Strunk v. United States, the judge must dismiss the case or, if a conviction has been reached, it must be overturned. The judge in this case was bound by a higher court.

This is no mere technicality. The right to a speedy criminal trial is a fundamental right protecting us from malicious state prosecution. Prosecutors should know the law and should know that they can't endlessly delay a trial for their own benefit.

Okay, so it's not "stupid", but it's still a technicality. Unless something changes, she's scott free because someone at the prosecutor's office didn't send the evidence to the defense when they were supposed to and had nothing to do with whether or not the evidence proved her guilty or innocent.

It's not based on a technicality because the judge was satisfied that all four parts of the speedy trial violation test, which I quoted above, were met. This means that the delay was not caused by a technicality, but purposely caused by the prosecution in order to create an advantage for its side and to prejudice the defendant's case. Can you not see why you'd want prosecutors prevented form excessively delaying a case simply to improve its odds? If they have a case, proceed. If they don't, they shouldn't file charges and then wait until they have an advantage.

Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Bocsius on March 24, 2009, 03:12:24 PM
Jack McCoy would find a way.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 24, 2009, 03:20:37 PM
:smug
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Ganhyun on March 24, 2009, 03:43:54 PM
disclaimer: Canadian law student

Constitutions are pretty vague and open-ended. As a result, it's up to the courts to fill in the gaps created by the original drafters. The courts must define and explain, for example, what a right to a speedy trial is and determine the specific test for determining whether that right has been violated. The US Supreme Court developed such a test in Barker v. Wingo

Quote
   1. Length of Delay: A delay of a year or more from the date on which the speedy trial right "attaches" (the date of arrest or indictment, whichever first occurs) was termed "presumptively prejudicial", but the Court has never explicitly ruled that any absolute time limit applies.
   2. Reason for the delay: The prosecution may not excessively delay the trial for its own advantage, but a trial may be delayed to secure the presence of an absent witness or other practical considerations.
   3. Time and manner in which the defendant has asserted his right: If a defendant acquiesces to the delay when it works to his own benefit, he cannot later claim that he has been unduly delayed.
   4. Degree of prejudice to the defendant which the delay has caused.

In this case, the delay was over a year, the delay was strictly for the benefit of the prosecution, and it prejudiced the defendant's case. Clearly, the defendant is not acquiescing to the delay. consequently, her constitutional right to a speedy trial has been violated.

When this right has been violated, According to the Supreme Court in Strunk v. United States, the judge must dismiss the case or, if a conviction has been reached, it must be overturned. The judge in this case was bound by a higher court.

This is no mere technicality. The right to a speedy criminal trial is a fundamental right protecting us from malicious state prosecution. Prosecutors should know the law and should know that they can't endlessly delay a trial for their own benefit.

Okay, so it's not "stupid", but it's still a technicality. Unless something changes, she's scott free because someone at the prosecutor's office didn't send the evidence to the defense when they were supposed to and had nothing to do with whether or not the evidence proved her guilty or innocent.

It's not based on a technicality because the judge was satisfied that all four parts of the speedy trial violation test, which I quoted above, were met. This means that the delay was not caused by a technicality, but purposely caused by the prosecution in order to create an advantage for its side and to prejudice the defendant's case. Can you not see why you'd want prosecutors prevented form excessively delaying a case simply to improve its odds? If they have a case, proceed. If they don't, they shouldn't file charges and then wait until they have an advantage.



Well, they dropped charges before so they could try and collect more evidence.  Then the woman was found guilty of tampering with evidence later. Then they said they had found more/new evidence. Then apparently someone screwed up and didn't send the data over soon enough or it took that long to get all the evidence together, so the defense asked for more time so they could review, then claimed the speedy trial issue, which was accepted by the judge. I understand why it happened, but doesn't mean I have to like it.

But I understand why that right is there and agree that right should be there.


Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 24, 2009, 04:00:26 PM

Well, they dropped charges before so they could try and collect more evidence.  Then the woman was found guilty of tampering with evidence later. Then they said they had found more/new evidence. Then apparently someone screwed up and didn't send the data over soon enough or it took that long to get all the evidence together, so the defense asked for more time so they could review, then claimed the speedy trial issue, which was accepted by the judge. I understand why it happened, but doesn't mean I have to like it.

But I understand why that right is there and agree that right should be there.


The first trial is a non-issue and has no bearing on the judge's decision.
The prosecution excessively delayed the second trial. And by not disclosing import, highly-technical evidence until just three days before the trial, they forced yet another delay that prejudiced the defendant's case. Consequently I like the decision. The judge had no choice: the state needs to be deterred from violating people's constitutional rights. Allowing another trial would not serve as a deterrent; in fact, it would only encourage the state to delay criminal trials.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Propagandhim on March 24, 2009, 04:16:35 PM
Malek to the rescue.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Tauntaun on March 24, 2009, 05:21:05 PM
by the by, here's my card:
(http://break.o1.bitgravity.com/break/holytaco/www/sites/default/files/need_a_lawyer.jpg)

:lol
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Madrun Badrun on March 24, 2009, 08:18:09 PM
Malek :bow2
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: max_cool on March 24, 2009, 10:16:59 PM
Malek is right, I know because I have completed more law school than he has... for now.
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 24, 2009, 10:29:09 PM
Malek is right, I know because I have completed more law school than he has... for now.

Hell, even after I graduate, you'll have attended more classes than I have!
Title: Re: Woman beats Murder Rap due to trial not being speedy.
Post by: Mandark on March 25, 2009, 12:27:31 AM
Malek spittin' hot fiah.

Evidence exclusion and dismissal of charges are the only penalties I can think of that 1) are strong enough to make the police and prosecutors pay attention, and 2) can be feasibly, regularly enforced by the courts themselves.

I've heard people say you should punish the cop/lawyer and let the trial go forward, but that assumes a mechanism for doling out those punishments which doesn't exist and would certainly wind up being costly, ineffective, slow, and used like a political football.