THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 03:34:42 PM

Title: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 03:34:42 PM
special hate reserved for cheebs

long article, shamelessly stolen from a Qt3 link

http://www.nypress.com/article-18219-what-we-dont-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-movies.html

Quote
To discuss movies as if they were irrelevant to individual experience—just bread-and-circus rabble-rousers—breeds indifference. And that’s only one of the two worst tendencies of contemporary criticism. The other is elitism.

This schism had an ironic origin—the popularization of film criticism as a consumer’s method. A generation of readers and filmgoers were once sparked by the discourse created by Pauline Kael and Andrew Sarris during the period that essayist Philip Lopate described as ìthe heroic era of moviegoing.î The desire to be a critic fulfilled the urge to respond to what was exciting in the culture. Movie commentary was a media rarity in those days and relatively principled (even the Times’ Arts & Leisure section used to present a forum for contrary opinions). And then the television series At the Movies happened. Its success, moving from public to commercial broadcast (who can tell the difference anymore?), resulted in an institution. Permit an insider’s story: It is said that At the Movies host Roger Ebert boasted to Kael about his new TV show, repeatedly asking whether she’d seen it. Kael reportedly answered “If I want a layman’s opinion on movies, I don’t have to watch TV.”

Kael’s cutting remark cuts to the root of criticism’s problem today. Ebert’s way of talking about movies as disconnected from social and moral issues, simply as entertainment, seemed to normalize film discourse—you didn’t have to strive toward it, any Average Joe American could do it. But criticism actually dumbed down. Ebert also made his method a road to celebrity—which destroyed any possibility for a heroic era of film criticism.
At the Movies helped criticism become a way to be famous in the age of TV and exploding media, a dilemma that writer George W. S. Trow distilled in his apercu “The Aesthetic of the Hit”: “To the person growing up in the power of demography, it was clear that history had to do not with the powerful actions of certain men but with the processes of choice and preference.” It was Ebert’s career choice and preference to reduce film discussion to the fumbling of thumbs, pointing out gaffes or withholding “spoilers”—as if a viewer needed only to like or dislike a movie, according to an arbitrary set of specious rules, trends and habits. Not thought. Not feeling. Not experience. Not education. Just reviewing movies the way boys argued about a baseball game.
Don’t misconstrue this as an attack on the still-convalescent Ebert. I wish him nothing but health. But I am trying to clarify where film criticism went bad. Despite Ebert’s recent celebration in both Time magazine and The New York Times as “a great critic,” neither encomium could credit him with a single critical idea, notable literary style or cultural contribution. Each paean resorted to personal, logrolling appreciations. A.O. Scott hit bottom when he corroborated Ebert’s advice, “When writing you should avoid cliché, but on television you should embrace it.” That kind of thinking made Scott’s TV appearances a zero.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Tauntaun on May 06, 2009, 03:46:04 PM
Quote
Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism

You lost me there buddy.   :'(
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Mandark on May 06, 2009, 03:47:50 PM
I have a rule of thumb where I tune out anyone after they use "bread and circuses" to describe modern culture.

Originally it was for political pieces (where it means "if only you'd stop watching American Idol and paid attention you'd agree with my platform!") but maybe it should apply here too.  It's terribly self-satisfied.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 03:48:25 PM
tl:dr version

Quote
shit sux cuz internet
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2009, 03:49:17 PM
:yuck

This article is more poorly written than a typical Ebert review.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2009, 03:52:28 PM
There are tons of Ebert reviews online yet he couldn't pull any examples from them to make his point?  So basically Ebert sucks because some other elitist thinks so? 

Great argument. 
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Tauntaun on May 06, 2009, 03:56:08 PM
tl:dr version

Quote
shit sux cuz internet

K, thanks. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)
You say long and I just pop boners man.  Can't think straight.  :-*
[close]
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Bloodwake on May 06, 2009, 03:58:06 PM
Yeah, this sounds about right.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Mandark on May 06, 2009, 04:00:25 PM
Genghis: No, I got it.  I'm not saying he's deploying the phrase in that way, just that it gets used that way in political essays.

He was saying that criticism should relate movies to real human experience and Important Things rather than evaluate them as Mere Entertainment, and thus make criticism more meaningful.  I've heard this argument before and I kind of sympathize with it, but aiming for social relevance won't weed out dumb results from bloggers.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:05:08 PM
i think that there is a great deal in what he says because what he states relates pretty specifically to my own views, so of course i'm going to be wildly biased in his favor.

he states basically that there is a lot of shoddy criticism which has a populist/spectacle bent which does not allow detailed readings / conversations on film to enter into the general dialog of most film comment.  he goes on to state that the internet is basically an festering shithole of uninformed people trying to appear knowledgeable about film but they do not have the tools in order to do so in a competent manner.

About 10 years ago or so, I used to  read a lot of film criticism and movie reviews/news sites including stuff like AICN, Dark Horizons and Ebert and the like.  I would follow this stuff pretty religiously and allowed it to shape a lot of my thought on film, but when I started to notice a real disconnect between what they enjoyed and what I enjoyed I took a step back and another and another until I have largely nothing to do with those specific places nor the archetype of internet movie expert (willco notwithstanding).

My own knowledge of film writing is fairly small.  I'm very familiar with Ebert and Agee and people form stuff like Film Comment and Sight and Sound, but only have a passing knowledge of Kael and others of her ilk, so I am not as well educated on film criticism (or much critical theory at all).
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on May 06, 2009, 04:07:50 PM
world socialist web site movie reviews :bow2
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:10:11 PM
have you read Jim Agee's stuff?  The guy who influenced Kael?

Check out the excellent Agee on Film

http://www.amazon.com/Agee-Film-Criticism-Comment-Library/dp/0375755292/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241637067&sr=8-1
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2009, 04:12:04 PM
My problem with the article is that the english and argumentative methods just aren't very good.  How can he tell other people how to write when he himself isn't a very good writer?
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Don Flamenco on May 06, 2009, 04:19:05 PM
blah diddy fucking blah

maybe I'll read it later  :D
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on May 06, 2009, 04:20:04 PM
dude reminds me of a couple of Usenet trolls I used to follow
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Don Flamenco on May 06, 2009, 04:22:18 PM
the reason I'm usually immediately repulsed by anything labeled "____ criticism" is passages like these:

Quote
Kael’s cutting remark cuts to the root of criticism’s problem today. Ebert’s way of talking about movies as disconnected from social and moral issues, simply as entertainment, seemed to normalize film discourse—you didn’t have to strive toward it, any Average Joe American could do it. But criticism actually dumbed down. Ebert also made his method a road to celebrity—which destroyed any possibility for a heroic era of film criticism.



not to sound anti-intellectual, but isn't this a little anti-non-academic and narrow minded?  honestly asking what people think, that's not a rhetorical question.   The reason why Ebert's method is popular is because it isn't heavy handed.  if he started drawing on deep film theory, he'd be out of a job in a flash.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:28:58 PM
i think the main issue is that rather than that providing a counterpoint, that's seemingly all which film criticism became.

going back and re-reading this and thinking a bit more, there are still intelligent, educated film critics who are make insightful reviews, but they're writing for academic journals long after the film releases rather than the stuff which is screened tuesday, written about the next day and published Friday.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:32:09 PM
Wait a second this is that fucker who champions Brian de Palma isn't it?  I know that fucking tone, i know that fucking tone.

yup, i was right.

of all the people to champion...
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 06, 2009, 04:32:22 PM
“It can be said with certainty,” Armond White wrote in the weekly New York Press, that anyone panning “Mission to Mars” “does not understand movies, let alone like them.”

link or it didn't happen
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2009, 04:37:40 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/movies/17scot.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/17/movies/17scot.html)

much better writer than Armond White
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 06, 2009, 04:37:44 PM
I feel like the essay has some really good points about the "dumbing down" of film criticism and especially the armchair enthusiast mindset of so many Internet self-deluded legends. I hate the focus on production stories, box office numbers, and God forfend Rotten Tomatoes aggregates as much as anyone. I think he is unfair to Ebert and others, though; I mean, by the standards of what passes for film writing today, Ebert is actually a force for critical good. He may not be going Kael-level deep but he does engage with the movies on their own merits and discuss how well they accomplish what they set out to do, rather than just summarizing the plot, rating the CG, and calling it a day.

I dated a girl for a few months and whenever we went to see a movie I would try to talk with her about it and she couldn't say anything except she liked it or she didn't like it. I think there's a lot of people out there who say they "like movies" but are just totally film illiterate when it comes to dissecting what makes them work and why.

I also think the author's continual name dropping of other movies which you better like or else you're an uneducated philistine significantly undermines his central point. He wanders away from "nobody is doing good film writing these days" to "nobody likes all the movies I like, which are the best movies" rather quickly.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:37:57 PM
i found scarface to be horrific excess (though totally intentional, i know) but haven't seen mission to mars.  that the film would even HAVE staunch defenders has now made me curious enough to add it to my netflix queue.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 06, 2009, 04:38:20 PM
Pauline Kael is a pleasure to read, even if you dislike her.  She championed a whole lot of films that were under the radar in the 70s, and she wrote passionately and intelligently about them.  You should check her out.

this is true, and i think she was a total cunt
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:41:54 PM
robert redford agrees!
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 06, 2009, 04:42:22 PM
and clint eastwood, and etc. etc.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 06, 2009, 04:44:03 PM
i'm trying to think of a brian depalma film i liked

hmm

the untouchables, even though it has fanfic levels of historical inaccuracy

hmm

maybe body double, i'd have to watch it again
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 04:46:16 PM
ARMOND WHITE!??! He called Confessions of a Shopoholic perfect and said Death Race with Jason Statham was better than The Wrestler!

He also tends to heap praise on every single Adam Sandler movie. And called Transporter 3 the best movie of 2008. He is insane.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
i'm trying to think of a brian depalma film i liked

hmm

the untouchables, even though it has fanfic levels of historical inaccuracy

hmm

maybe body double, i'd have to watch it again

i like de palma, but it's similar to my enjoyment of coppola, i don't worship him

Sisters, Carrie, The Fury, Mission Impossible (really), Black Dalhia.

I liked the opening for Femme Fatale (hubba hubba)
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 06, 2009, 04:48:34 PM
"Bow down to Hollywood season is upon us. If the line, “We’re going to make you indestructible, but first we’re going to destroy you,” seems awesome, you’re probably male and more than likely a child— at least emotionally.That consumer-oriented line is from X-Men Origins: Wolverine, which, like the new Star Trek movie, is designed for adolescent awe. Problem is: It’s not just niche marketing, it’s become the way of American film culture.These action/comic book/TV/fantasy/CGI flicks are not about plot.Their only purpose: teaching audiences to watch movies crudely, as teenagers, as a boy. At that, Wolverine and Star Trek succeed damnably."

The man has a point.

I was complaining to a friend yesterday... Hollywood used to demand a permanent adolescence from its moviegoers in the 90s, but at least we got original IP. Nowadays, we're supposed to be permanent 9-year-olds, we have TWO movies this summer based on Hasbro action figures. That plus a PG-13 Terminator sequel, and anything that's not a romantic comedy is a "reimagining" of a perfectly fine 80s movie.

I don't think it's just me getting older. Action/mainstream "popcorn" movies from the 80s were so much better than those from the 90s, too.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:50:25 PM
"Bow down to Hollywood season is upon us. If the line, “We’re going to make you indestructible, but first we’re going to destroy you,” seems awesome, you’re probably male and more than likely a child— at least emotionally.That consumer-oriented line is from X-Men Origins: Wolverine, which, like the new Star Trek movie, is designed for adolescent awe. Problem is: It’s not just niche marketing, it’s become the way of American film culture.These action/comic book/TV/fantasy/CGI flicks are not about plot.Their only purpose: teaching audiences to watch movies crudely, as teenagers, as a boy. At that, Wolverine and Star Trek succeed damnably."

The man has a point.

I was complaining to a friend yesterday... Hollywood used to demand a permanent adolescence from its moviegoers in the 90s, but at least we got original IP. Nowadays, we're supposed to be permanent 9-year-olds, we have TWO movies this summer based on Hasbro action figures. That plus a PG-13 Terminator sequel, and anything that's not a romantic comedy is a "reimagining" of a perfectly fine 80s movie.

I don't think it's just me getting older. Action/mainstream "popcorn" movies from the 80s were so much better than those from the 90s, too.

Speed Racer was awesome.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 04:51:10 PM
Oh and this is the guy who said Indiana Jones & The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was the greatest steven spielberg film ever. He also is just a plain bad journalist. He often gets character names wrong and mixes up directors of the films he is reviewing.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:53:04 PM
the man's mother is on her way to pick him up, he only had time to google the author's name
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 06, 2009, 04:53:10 PM
Speed Racer was awesome.

okay, you got me there.

however, it was also a huge box office failure because it was an ACTUAL reimagining, not a focus-tested, Entertainment Weekly-approved imagination-free "reimagining." GI Joe is an 8-year-old's idea of adult entertainment. I wouldn't mind this glut of nostalgia mining if everyone was as willing to tell the "fans" to fuck off as the Wachowski Siblings.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on May 06, 2009, 04:53:48 PM
Quote
"Bow down to Hollywood season is upon us. If the line, “We’re going to make you indestructible, but first we’re going to destroy you,” seems awesome, you’re probably male and more than likely a child— at least emotionally.

i wouldn't say awesome, but it seems pretty cute and if i were writing an x-men movie and the line occurred to me, i would probably put it in
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 06, 2009, 04:55:02 PM
i'm trying to think of a brian depalma film i liked

hmm

the untouchables, even though it has fanfic levels of historical inaccuracy

hmm

maybe body double, i'd have to watch it again

i like de palma, but it's similar to my enjoyment of coppola, i don't worship him

Sisters, Carrie, The Fury, Mission Impossible (really), Black Dalhia.

I liked the opening for Femme Fatale (hubba hubba)

hahaha, i forgot he directed some of those

yeah, i guess i like a few, but i don't go out of my way to see a depalma movie
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 04:55:37 PM
Did you read the essay?
I skimmed over it. But how does that dispute the fact the guy is insane? Why should I read an essay from a guy who spent the majority of his review of the wrestler talking about how much more eloquent death race with jason statham was and thought the main characters name was "ram jam"? And claims "White Chicks" to be one of the best comedy films of all time?

It'd be like wanting to read an essay on film from a manabyte, but a manabyte with severe brain damage.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eel O'Brian on May 06, 2009, 04:56:17 PM
that warren ellis gi joe mini thing he's doing for cartoon network is okay

i never watched any of the original cartoons, though
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 04:56:28 PM
Quote
yeah, i guess i like a few, but i don't go out of my way to see a depalma movie

this boils down my relationship with Coppola exactly.

Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 06, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Did you read the essay?
I skimmed over it. But how does that dispute the fact the guy is insane? Why should I read an essay from a guy who spent the majority of his review of the wrestler talking about how much more eloquent death race with jason statham was and thought the main characters name was "ram jam"? And claims "White Chicks" to be one of the best comedy films of all time?

Cool, bring up some more irrelevant details from unrelated articles that allow you to not engage the central point of the essay we're talking about (which is about you).
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 04:58:49 PM
Strawman etc.
Strawman? Look at all of his reviews

He hates pretty much EVERY film that has any sort of acclaim and tends to gives good reviews to universally panned studio manufactured stuff like shopholic, chuck and larry, white chicks...etc. It's very rare if he actually likes something that isnt studio trash.

I know it's about me! I skimmed the article. I am not that dense. My point is this man is not qualified to make the point because he is just as bad as the people he is attacking, but in his own way.

He is the reason we get films like white chicks and the like.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 05:00:40 PM

He is the reason we get films like white chicks and the like.

i would ask you to defend this statement but there is no way which you can

Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on May 06, 2009, 05:02:08 PM
Besides, if you're going to play Mr. Open-Minded and claim to have evolved beyond elitism and love everything from summer escapist fare to fall Oscar bait, well, surely there is room in that manufactured Internet persona for White Chicks
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 05:04:40 PM
Wait, he makes a good point, but he is not qualified to make that point because he is what he is talking about?  Ideas aren't people and vice versa.  

"you may kill cheebs, but you cannot kill what he represents"
-Cheebs Guevara
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 05:06:49 PM
Wait, he makes a good point, but he is not qualified to make that point
Yes. It's like if Joe the Plumber in one of his rants about not wanting gays around his kids and nonsense actually slips in something halfway understandable. It doesn't mean I'd decide to take what he said seriously.

Plus he has no opinions. He likes being a troll just to get attention. He gives rave reviews to the endless stream of chick-flicks and black-oriented comedies just because he wants to be different. I don't just understand how a film critic who's whole goal is to troll and rarely does any research on who the actors and directors are for a given film. Almost any other newspaper would have fired him.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on May 06, 2009, 05:08:01 PM
Who cares what critics have to say, just watch what you want and enjoy it if it's good.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 05:11:12 PM
A lot of people enjoy engaging in the exchange of ideas.
I'm fine with that, but he isn't someone who is trying to exchange ideas. I am fine with that with critics I'd disagree with on nearly everything. But he doesn't taking reviewing seriously. He writes reviews just to get attention from being outrageous.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on May 06, 2009, 05:13:32 PM
A lot of people enjoy engaging in the exchange of ideas.

You're not qualified to say that.


spoiler (click to show/hide)
jk
[close]

Title: Comity!
Post by: Mandark on May 06, 2009, 05:14:09 PM
Whatever anyone thinks of the article, I think we can all agree that Cheebs is dumb.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 05:18:22 PM
I've never claimed to be otherwise.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: drew on May 06, 2009, 05:23:00 PM
A lot of people enjoy engaging in the exchange of ideas.

faggots. all of them.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2009, 06:04:09 PM
Speed Racer was crap.  Just because it was an actual reimagining doesn't mean that it was actually good. 

Also, Cheebs is dumb but I'm with him on this.  Armond White clearly has shit taste which preclude him from having a legit discussion on the proper reviewing of films.   
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 06:07:38 PM
Speed Racer was crap.  Just because it was an actual reimagining doesn't mean that it was actually good. 

no.  that it was good means that it was actually good.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2009, 06:16:36 PM
Other than the visuals (although Fox> Ricci by a fairly big distance) , Speed Racer wasn't any better than Transformers. 
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 06:30:12 PM
i think that we're basically in the territory of subjective taste
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 06, 2009, 06:50:10 PM
Cheebs is right, but this is still a shoot-the-messenger affair. He may be a shitty critic - in fact he's clearly worse than I am - but that doesn't disqualify him from having a broad opinion on what film criticism is.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Oblivion on May 06, 2009, 06:52:40 PM
Speed Racer was crap.  Just because it was an actual reimagining doesn't mean that it was actually good. 

Also, Cheebs is dumb but I'm with him on this.  Armond White clearly has shit taste which preclude him from having a legit discussion on the proper reviewing of films.   

Agreed on all counts, especially Speed Racer (which I should probably actually watch someday just to confirm, but anyway...).

I mean let's be fair here guys. People (including here in EB) discredit other people's opinions based on their tastes all the time. If this was written by Sean Maelstrom, none of you would have bothered to read past the title.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 07:06:37 PM
i have no idea who that is
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: TVC15 on May 06, 2009, 07:07:25 PM
I think that's a gay porn star?
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Fresh Prince on May 06, 2009, 07:08:33 PM
Cheebs is right, but this is still a shoot-the-messenger affair. He may be a shitty critic - in fact he's clearly worse than I am - but that doesn't disqualify him from having a broad opinion on what film criticism is.
No you really are that bad.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 06, 2009, 07:10:02 PM
Cheebs is right, but this is still a shoot-the-messenger affair. He may be a shitty critic - in fact he's clearly worse than I am - but that doesn't disqualify him from having a broad opinion on what film criticism is.
No you really are that bad.

Usually I just write down what I like about a movie, what I don't like. I'm not getting payed for my shitty reviews, which is why this guy has a leg up on me
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Eric P on May 06, 2009, 07:15:05 PM
I think that's a gay porn star?

looks like a vg journo
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Oblivion on May 06, 2009, 07:15:16 PM
i have no idea who that is

http://malstrom.50webs.com/theblueoceanarticles.htm
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Fresh Prince on May 06, 2009, 07:16:54 PM
Usually I just write down what I like about a movie, what I don't like. I'm not getting payed for my shitty reviews, which is why this guy has a leg up on me
This reeks of the 'noble amateur' sentiment that has swept over society in recent years. 
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 06, 2009, 07:19:31 PM
Usually I just write down what I like about a movie, what I don't like. I'm not getting payed for my shitty reviews, which is why this guy has a leg up on me
This reeks of the 'noble amateur' sentiment that has swept over society in recent years. 

There's nothing noble about it from my perspective, but I see what you're saying. Everyone is capable of explaining why they liked or didn't like something. It's based off individual perspective.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: TVC15 on May 06, 2009, 07:22:49 PM
I think that's a gay porn star?

looks like a vg journo

That's a shame.  I was picturing a maelstrom of cocks and assholes and semen swirling down restless vortexes.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 07:34:11 PM
PD doesn't write rave reviews for whatever empty rom-com or adam sandler movie is out at the moment and mock everything else at least. Although he loves Matilda.....
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 06, 2009, 07:35:12 PM
Matilda is like the best children's movie of the 90s
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2009, 07:37:18 PM
Cheebs is right, but this is still a shoot-the-messenger affair. He may be a shitty critic - in fact he's clearly worse than I am - but that doesn't disqualify him from having a broad opinion on what film criticism is.

That actually does disqualify him.  If he can't tell a good film apart from a bad one, how can I trust what he says about others' perceptions of films?

You can't tell people how to watch a film unless you knew how to do it yourself.  
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Cheebs on May 06, 2009, 07:38:01 PM
Cheebs is right, but this is still a shoot-the-messenger affair. He may be a shitty critic - in fact he's clearly worse than I am - but that doesn't disqualify him from having a broad opinion on what film criticism is.

That actually does disqualify him.  If he can't tell a good film apart from a bad one, how can I trust what he says about others' perceptions of films?

You can't tell people how to watch a film unless you knew how to do it yourself.  
This is the point I was trying to make, but made far better than I ever could.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: TVC15 on May 06, 2009, 07:44:30 PM
This thread sucks.  Let me save it.

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Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Don Flamenco on May 07, 2009, 03:06:10 AM
started it, but can't really muster the energy to read this kind of shit anymore. all kinds of media criticism just feels fruitless.  then criticism of criticism is like going into negative fruit.  so that I actually lose fruit by reading it.   not that it isn't important for it to exist.
Title: Before Cohen gets on that boat for the West...
Post by: Mandark on May 20, 2009, 02:41:45 AM
I actually wound up reading the whole thing but didn't get around to posting.

It's not all bad.  "Intense pretense at intellectualizing what is basically a hobby" sums up a lot of geek videogame/movie/genre fiction criticism quite nicely.

But I don't like the alternative he's suggesting.  For all the talk of having a "heart-to-heart" and wanting movies to be something "to talk about" that "affirm our humanity" I think he's got another agenda going on.

I mean, yikes:

Quote
What we don’t talk about when we talk about movies these days reveals that we have not moved past the crippling social tendency that 1990s sociologists called Denial. The most powerful, politically and morally engaged recent films (The Darjeeling Limited, Private Fears in Public Places, World Trade Center, The Promise, Shortbus, Ask the Dust, Akeelah and the Bee, Bobby, Running Scared, Munich, War of the Worlds, Vera Drake) were all ignored by journalists whose jobs are to bring the (cultural) news to the public. Instead, only movies that are mendacious, pseudo-serious, sometimes immoral or socially retrograde and irresponsible (4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days, Army of Shadows, United 93, Marie Antoinette, Zodiac, Last Days, There Will Be Blood, American Gangster, Gone Baby Gone, Letters From Iwo Jima, A History of Violence, Tarnation, Elephant) have received critics’ imprimatur.

That reads like a fatwa, not an opening for a dialogue.

I'm reading this mostly as another case of someone in print media (news reporter, op-ed writer, sports columnist), with academic and professional credentials, bemoaning how the net has allowed self-publishers to ruin everything.

Yeah, most bloggers are for crap.  But it's hard not to read this as someone who used to have a privileged cultural niche who's now demanding that we repair the institutional barriers that kept people from usurping their rightful place in the universe.

That's why he says the online reviewers are "too autodidactic" and chides people for missing the Biblical (and only correct) reading of NCFOM.  He wants deference (the phrase "heroic film cricitism" is downright narcissistic) but instead of winning people over with his superior intellect, empathy, and articulation, he's throwing a bitch fit instead.
Title: Re: Before Cohen gets on that boat for the West...
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 20, 2009, 02:50:43 AM
That reads like a fatwa, not an opening for a dialogue.

:lol

I always felt that film critics were people that wanted to make films, but just weren't good enough.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Bildi on May 20, 2009, 02:55:51 AM
They should start as actors.  I hear that's a good way to get into directing.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Flannel Boy on May 20, 2009, 03:08:01 AM
Quote
Print publications restructuring to keep up with the web have dismissed or offered buyouts to noticeable numbers of employees, including critics. Trimming these fatted ranks is a result of basic disrespect for criticism as both a true journalistic profession and a necessary intellectual practice.

Yes, newspaper and magazine publishers are laying off some of his colleagues because they disrespect his noble profession, not because of declining readership and massive financial losses.

TOOL
Title: Re: Before Cohen gets on that boat for the West...
Post by: Mandark on May 20, 2009, 03:15:32 AM
That reads like a fatwa, not an opening for a dialogue.

:lol

I always felt that film critics were people that wanted to make films, but just weren't good enough.

They probably want to write (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065466/), at least.

I was going to write something about how I like criticism but how critics can get insufferable when they demand equal or higher standing than the moviemakers themselves.  Then I realized I was just going to be stealing Peter O'Toole's speech from Ratatouille.  :/
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Don Flamenco on May 21, 2009, 12:53:34 PM
wow i killed this thread

sorry :-\


just make another post agreeing with the article and everybody = thread revived!
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Tauntaun on May 21, 2009, 12:56:14 PM
wow i killed this thread

sorry :-\

no worries boo,  :-*
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Don Flamenco on May 21, 2009, 03:32:31 PM
wow, this article was amazing


I am in agreement.  The rich vocabulary and esoteric observations that are not observable when directly examining the subject matter really gave me the feeling that I simply don't understand the art of telling people whether something is good or bad, which I like.
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 06, 2009, 10:34:46 AM
Wait, wait, wait...the original article was by Armond White? THE Armond White? The same Armond White that loved Land of the Lost, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Transformers 2 and Terminator Salvation but hated Iron Man, The Dark Knight, Star Trek, and Hellboy 2? That loved Dance Flick and Bedtime Stories but hated Up, WALL-E and The Hangover? That hated The Wrestler, Gran Torino, Milk, Slumdog Millionaire, Encounters at the End of the World, In Bruges, There Will Be Blood, Sweeney Todd, Before the Devil Knows Your Dead, Zodiac, Gone Baby Gone, Michael Clayton, The Assassination of Jesse James, Eastern Promies, 3:10 to Yuma, Doubt, Stardust, Hairspray, Knocked Up and Sunshine but loved War, I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry, and Fantastic Four 2? THAT Armond White?

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 06, 2009, 01:55:50 PM
 :lol

Land of the Lost:

Quote
Instead of shouting, “Eureka!” Rick Marshall (Will Ferrell) exclaims, “Capt. Kirk’s nipples!” Is that enough to ride the coattails of the much-inferior Star Trek movie?

Quote
Yet pop-culture affection is felt consistently from Ferrell’s homages— to both A Chorus Line and Cher’s “Believe”—to McBride (the white Mike Epps) enjoying a time-warp benefit that could have come from a classic Hope-Crosby road movie.

Up:

Quote
All this deflated cinema and Pixarism mischaracterizes what good animation can be, as in Coraline, Monster House, Chicken Little,Teacher’s Pet,The Iron Giant).

Quote
This way, Pixar disgraces and delimits the animated film as a mushy, silly pop form.What used to be ridiculed as sentimental excess in old Disney animation now comes disguised in the latest technology— which excites consumerist audiences who revere technology as the true achievement of capitalism, if not Americanism.

Dark Knight:

Quote
We’re way beyond film noir here. The Dark Knight has no black-and-white moral shading. Everything is dark, the tone glibly nihilistic (hip) due to The Joker’s rampage that brings Gotham City to its knees—exhausting the D.A. and nearly wearing-out Batman’s arsenal of expensive gizmos. Nolan isn’t interested in providing James Bond–style gadgetry for its own ingenious wonder; rather, these crime battle accoutrements evoke Zodiac-style “process” (part of the futility and dread exemplified by the constantly outwitted police). This pessimism links Batman to our post-9/11 anxiety by escalating the violence quotient, evoking terrorist threat and urban helplessness. And though the film’s violence is hard, loud and constant, it is never realistic—it fabricates disaster simply to tease millennial death wish and psychosis.

Watching psychic volleys between Batman, Dent and The Joker (there’s even a love quadrangle that includes Maggie Gyllenhaal’s slouchy Assistant D.A., Rachel Dawes) is as fraught and unpleasurable as There Will Be Blood with bat wings. This sociological bloodsport shouldn’t be acceptable to any thinking generation.

There hasn’t been so much pressure to like a Batman movie since street vendors were selling bootleg Batman T-shirts in 1989. If blurbs like “The Dark Knight creates a place where good and evil—expected to do battle—decide instead to get it on and dance” sound desperate, it’s due to the awful tendency to convert criticism into ad copy—constantly pandering to Hollywood’s teen demographic. This not only revamps ideas of escapist entertainment; like Nolan, it corrupts them.

Quote
But how great of an actor was Ledger to accept this trite material in the first place?
Title: Re: Long Facsinating Essay on the Failure of Modern Film Criticism
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on July 06, 2009, 05:54:01 PM
i always wondered if he was doing a self-conscious parody of contrarian film criticism.  i'm waiting for his giant YHBT declaration.