THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Hollywood on September 18, 2009, 02:18:41 AM

Title: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Hollywood on September 18, 2009, 02:18:41 AM
Several of the nation's leading health experts are calling for a tax on soda as a means of curbing America's obesity-epidemic.

Their paper, appearing in the most recent issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, calls for a tax on "sugar-sweetened" drinks in order to reduce the consumption of the drinks and lower health costs as well as fund government-run health programs.

"A tax on sugar-sweetened beverages is really a double-win," said Dr. David Ludwig, a co-author of the paper and director of the Optimal Weight for Life program at Children's Hospital, Boston.

....

Quote
"I don't see how anyone would go with attacking the beverage industry and taxing a single food, and I don't think the evidence is there to support taxing a soft drink," said Theresa Nicklas, an epidemiologist at the Baylor College of Medicine. "Why are we targeting sweetened beverages? What about Twinkies, what about happy meals, what about chocolate candy?"

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WellnessNews/leading-researchers-propose-tax-sugared-drinks/Story?id=8594299&page=1


 :duh :dur
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Human Snorenado on September 18, 2009, 02:21:52 AM
Wouldn't bother me at all- I drink like maybe the equivalent of a two liter a month.

Tax restaurant sweet tea and we'll have to fucking tussle, tho.  :punch
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Diunx on September 18, 2009, 02:30:28 AM
If they tax my cigarrates then is only fair that they tax coke, less fat kids= a better tomorrow.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Phoenix Dark on September 18, 2009, 02:38:03 AM
How about a cash for clunkers type program. Turn in Twinkies and pop for Subway sammiches and sweet tea :bow
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Bebpo on September 18, 2009, 02:42:52 AM
I'm ok with this, it'll motivate me to stick with water even more.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Human Snorenado on September 18, 2009, 02:44:26 AM
How about a cash for clunkers type program. Turn in Twinkies and pop for Subway sammiches and sweet tea :bow

Or better yet, turn in your fat young boys for love pillows and fleshlights.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Phoenix Dark on September 18, 2009, 02:47:53 AM
Awesome, I could get some high quality fleshlights after turning you in
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: OptimoPeach on September 18, 2009, 02:53:26 AM
lol @ comparing soft drinks to cigarettes. I don't even drink soda anymore and this pisses me off.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: CajoleJuice on September 18, 2009, 03:03:33 AM
Nanny state?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: GilloD on September 18, 2009, 03:06:11 AM
REAL TALK:

Why does this make everyone so mad?

Doesn't it piss you off that companies have been jacking their drinks full of corn syrup for decades? Doesnt it piss you off that enormo food corps have been exploiting the human diet and drive to consume to make mega profits while making Americans less healthy than ever? There's a place in India where Coke fucking DRAINED THE WATER TABLE DRY. A lawsuit means they now have to supply that town with water forever. Because they fucking used it all to make soft drinks. That doesn't piss you off?

What pisses you off is a 5 cent tax on your too-sweet soda? Gimmie a fucking break. Get real.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Phoenix Dark on September 18, 2009, 03:08:48 AM
Nanny state?

No because it would suggest you live with a woman
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 18, 2009, 03:19:59 AM
As someone who likes his pop, soda or whatever the hell you call, it doesn't bother me at all.

But it doesn't fix the problem.

Companies have been peddling cheap, addictive beverages to kids for decades - subsidized by government dollars. We've got a problem when kids can get Mountain Dew in middle schools over things like water and juice.

Taxing the drinks will only result in people paying more for garbage, what we need is an overhaul of our food system.

That's my personal opinion.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: CajoleJuice on September 18, 2009, 03:35:42 AM
Nanny state?

No because it would suggest you live with a woman

My mom doesn't count?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Phoenix Dark on September 18, 2009, 03:42:32 AM
I thought you had your own place  :'(

Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: CajoleJuice on September 18, 2009, 03:44:41 AM
It's my turn to  :'(
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Phoenix Dark on September 18, 2009, 03:51:20 AM
I feel shitty, time for a pick-me-up

[youtube=560,345]o0vblmfAeQE[/youtube]
 :drool
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Flannel Boy on September 18, 2009, 03:54:50 AM
I have pop-pop in my pants.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on September 18, 2009, 07:37:10 AM
100% in favor of

2-3 cents per ounce would be great.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Tieno on September 18, 2009, 07:38:24 AM
What's with the nanny hate? I wish I had a nanny :(
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: pilonv1 on September 18, 2009, 09:16:14 AM
how about a tax on stupid fat cunts who dont exercise?

how hard is it to move more and eat less

smh america
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Himu on September 18, 2009, 09:28:23 AM
This is a good idea. I don't even drink soda anymore.

The War on Soda!

Pretty soon we will have started a new country, soda dumped in the Atlantic! The Boston Soda Party!
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Brehvolution on September 18, 2009, 09:58:36 AM
End the corn subsidy. This will jack up the prices of shit drinks to be in line with healthier alternatives. problem fixed. Money saved.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Bocsius on September 18, 2009, 10:29:46 AM
How about a tax credit for my gym membership while we're at it.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Kestastrophe on September 18, 2009, 10:48:31 AM
How about a tax credit for my gym membership while we're at it.
:bow
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: OptimoPeach on September 18, 2009, 11:03:46 AM
REAL TALK:

Why does this make everyone so mad?

What pisses you off is a 5 cent tax on your too-sweet soda? Gimmie a fucking break. Get real.
Because if such a tax is imposed it'll be done so under the pretense that legislators actually give a shit about the average fatty's eating habits, instead of the fact that this is just an easy excuse to cash in on the cows.

Doesn't it piss you off that companies have been jacking their drinks full of corn syrup for decades? Doesnt it piss you off that enormo food corps have been exploiting the human diet and drive to consume to make mega profits while making Americans less healthy than ever?
But that's the thing. Soda is just a fraction of the problem with the American diet, and the people that are consuming unhealthy amounts of it on a daily basis are more often than not going to be the same lardasses that gorge on Ding Dongs and fast food because it's a cheaper alternative to shopping at Whole Foods. The studies being cited simply indicate a correlation between heavy soda consumption and health issues, and for some reason I doubt that people walking around 100+ lbs overweight like this guy (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374463) got that way solely because of soft drinks.

Like you said, a much bigger part of the problem is the pervasiveness in food of HFCS, so why not suggest a tax on all corporations using the stuff instead of just a handful of them?

There's a place in India where Coke fucking DRAINED THE WATER TABLE DRY. A lawsuit means they now have to supply that town with water forever. Because they fucking used it all to make soft drinks. That doesn't piss you off?
Big corporate exploitation in other countries has nothing to do with the inherent unhealthiness of soda itself, and it has nothing to do with why this tax is being proposed; that is an entirely different issue.

Like I said, I don't even drink soda anymore, but the idea that this is going to change anything is risible
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Dickie Dee on September 18, 2009, 12:57:12 PM
End the corn subsidy. This will jack up the prices of shit drinks to be in line with healthier alternatives. problem fixed. Money saved.

Yes.

Maybe make gym memberships and exercise equipment tax deductable? Don't know what kind of mess that would create tbh.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Dickie Dee on September 18, 2009, 01:06:53 PM
REAL TALK:

Why does this make everyone so mad?

What pisses you off is a 5 cent tax on your too-sweet soda? Gimmie a fucking break. Get real.
Because if such a tax is imposed it'll be done so under the pretense that legislators actually give a shit about the average fatty's eating habits, instead of the fact that this is just an easy excuse to cash in on the cows.

Doesn't it piss you off that companies have been jacking their drinks full of corn syrup for decades? Doesnt it piss you off that enormo food corps have been exploiting the human diet and drive to consume to make mega profits while making Americans less healthy than ever?
But that's the thing. Soda is just a fraction of the problem with the American diet, and the people that are consuming unhealthy amounts of it on a daily basis are more often than not going to be the same lardasses that gorge on Ding Dongs and fast food because it's a cheaper alternative to shopping at Whole Foods. The studies being cited simply indicate a correlation between heavy soda consumption and health issues, and for some reason I doubt that people walking around 100+ lbs overweight like this guy (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374463) got that way solely because of soft drinks.

Like you said, a much bigger part of the problem is the pervasiveness in food of HFCS, so why not suggest a tax on all corporations using the stuff instead of just a handful of them?

There's a place in India where Coke fucking DRAINED THE WATER TABLE DRY. A lawsuit means they now have to supply that town with water forever. Because they fucking used it all to make soft drinks. That doesn't piss you off?
Big corporate exploitation in other countries has nothing to do with the inherent unhealthiness of soda itself, and it has nothing to do with why this tax is being proposed; that is an entirely different issue.

Like I said, I don't even drink soda anymore, but the idea that this is going to change anything is risible

Correlation isn't causation, yadda yadda, but still... (http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/story/2188612.html)

Quote
California soda survey gives weight to health concerns
atong@sacbee.com
Published Thursday, Sep. 17, 2009

A sweeping statewide study released today points to soda and other sugar-sweetened beverages as one of the main reasons why we are fat.

"For the first time, we have strong scientific evidence that soda is one of the – if not the largest – contributors to the obesity epidemic," Dr. Harold Goldstein, executive director of the California Center for Public Health Advocacy, said Wednesday.

Obesity costs California $41 billion a year, an earlier report from the same organization found.


Suspicion of a link between soda and obesity isn't fresh news, but authors said the study is unprecedented in its scope.

"Bubbling Over: Soda Consumption and Its Link to Obesity in California" – a joint effort by the California Center for Public Health Advocacy and the UCLA Center for Health Policy Research – interviewed 42,000 Californians of all ages.

The study found that 24 percent of adults drink one or more non-diet sodas a day, and these adults are 27 percent more likely to be overweight.

The results for children were worse, researchers said. Sixty-two percent of adolescents ages 12 to 17 and 41 percent of children ages 2 to 11 imbibe at least one sugar-sweetened drink a day.

These kids, Goldstein said, will end up costing the state in future health care bills.

"This could be the first generation in modern history that will have a shorter life expectancy than their parents," he said.

The main culprit in soft drinks is sugar – lots of it. Soda racks up 17 teaspoons of sugar and about 250 calories per 20-ounce serving, and many add caffeine.

"A bottle of soda is nothing more than a sugar delivery device," said Goldstein. "We have a lot of very sweet kids."

He says the key to fixing the obesity epidemic is eliminating soda consumption, because many soft drinks are high-calorie and do little to curb hunger.

"When you eat food, it makes you full," said Judith Stern, a professor at the University of California, Davis' nutrition department. "When you drink a soda, it doesn't make you feel full, so it's wasted calories."

American soda consumption has been steadily rising: Compared with 30 years ago, we consume an average 278 more calories per day, almost half of it from soda, according to the California Center for Public Health Advocacy.

In the mid-1990s, children's intake of sugared beverages surpassed milk. And for each glass of soda consumed per day, a child's likelihood of becoming obese increases 60 percent.

Beverage makers say soda is unfairly demonized. In promoting healthy lifestyles, some soda companies – including Coca-Cola and PepsiCo – have introduced vitamin- enhanced zero-calorie sodas in the past several years, marketed as "sparkling beverages."

"The fact remains you can be a healthy person and enjoy a soft drink," Dr. Maureen Storey, an American Beverage Association spokeswoman, wrote in a statement.

Experts on childhood obesity say a sweet tooth for soda develops early in life.

"I have seen a number of children who come into the doctor's office with soda in their baby bottle," said Dr. Ulfat Shaikh, a pediatrician who works at UC Davis Children Hospital's weight management clinic. "That, frankly, is frightening."

Some parents say banning soda from the start is the only way to go.

Debi Ravenscroft of Loomis has never allowed her 10-year-old daughter to drink soda, even though her husband, Bob, drinks six to eight sodas a day.

Because her daughter never started drinking soda, she doesn't crave it.

"If she is at her friend's house and they offer soda to her, she says, 'Can I have a water, please?' " Ravenscroft said.

Ravenscroft sees other positive effects of keeping soft drinks away from her daughter.

"I have seen other kids who are allowed to drink Pepsi, and I honestly believe that's the reason why they can't sit still," she said.

The study also rekindled talk of a "soda tax" among California policymakers.

California limits school sales of sodas, candy and other junk food. Sodas, unlike most other foods, are subject to sales tax.

A 1 cent tax per ounce of soda would generate $1.8 billion per year in California.

Six states – Arkansas, Missouri, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia – have soda taxes.

"It's time to revisit the soda tax debate, now that we have ever-more convincing evidence of its role in obesity," said state Sen. Alex Padilla, D-San Fernando Valley, who chairs a committee on obesity and diabetes.

On a weekday afternoon, middle-schoolers on the way home from California Middle School stopped by a Marie's Do-Nut Shop on Freeport Boulevard in Sacramento. Several purchased soft drinks.

"It's just so … sugary," said 13-year-old Duy Ngo, as he snapped open a can of 7-Up.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: BlackMage on September 18, 2009, 04:08:37 PM
what will this do to things like soda machines?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Tauntaun on September 18, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/SlinkyT82/randy.jpg)

"Oh I'm sorry, I thought this was America!"
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Bocsius on September 18, 2009, 04:17:52 PM
what will this do to things like soda machines?

20oz bottles will be $1.6225
12oz cans will be $0.9475

The challenge will be returning the correct change.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Brehvolution on September 18, 2009, 04:54:07 PM
what will this do to things like soda machines?
Soda machines are already cost prohibitive imo.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Bocsius on September 18, 2009, 05:20:30 PM
It's a thyroid condition, you rabid anti-thyroidite.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Snuflupagulus on September 18, 2009, 05:41:21 PM
how about a tax on stupid fat cunts who dont exercise?

how hard is it to move more and eat less

smh america

lol.  pilonv1, have you been to america?  We're so fucking lazy that manufacturers run television commercials for those go-cart, scooter-things into which old people plop their ample asses.  They claim you can get it "free" 'cause Medicare will pay for it.  Sidewalks aren't for pedestrians over here; it's a smaller lane for motorized carts.  Usually, you see these people rolling into the sunset with 64-oz Slushies from 7-11, their heads lolly-gagging with tongue between lips.  That's 1.8 L for our metric friends.  We spell Diabetes with a capitol D over here.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Fragamemnon on September 18, 2009, 05:58:41 PM
how about a tax on stupid fat cunts who dont exercise?

how hard is it to move more and eat less

smh america

dude even some  of our sports drinks have HFCS in America.

I'd totally be down for a a tax credit or deduction for proof of sustained physical activity, but the problem is that getting to a healthy weight is like 4/5 diet and only 1/5 exercise. Fighting the fat isn't something that can really efficiently be done from the activity end.

Our real problem is tons of processed shit food that isn't filling but is dirt cheap, and that's not exclusively due to ag subsidies.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Brehvolution on September 18, 2009, 09:15:01 PM
End the corn subsidy. This will jack up the prices of shit drinks to be in line with healthier alternatives. problem fixed. Money saved.

Holy fuck, Zero Hero said something agreeable.
Of course, that money would be better suited for UHC.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on September 19, 2009, 06:54:41 PM
I am personally cool with this.  I don't much like soda, but sometimes end up drinking it when vending machines, workplaces etc. don't stock anything else.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on September 19, 2009, 07:06:28 PM
I'd be just fine with an outright ban on pop but I know that will make the fat fucks squall like babies so forget that.  A 2-3 cent per ounce tax should be instated.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Eel O'Brian on September 19, 2009, 07:18:43 PM
itt we see a terrific example of people not giving a shit about things which don't affect them

when they slap down a game tax (for "education funding") or an extra coffee tax (because, you know, caffeine is pretty horrible for you when you think about it, and why should the rest of america pay for your jitters?), then you fucks will splutter with outrage, guaranteed
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on September 19, 2009, 07:22:53 PM
itt we see a terrific example of people not giving a shit about things which don't affect them

when they slap down a game tax (for "education funding") or an extra coffee tax (because, you know, caffeine is pretty horrible for you when you think about it, and why should the rest of america pay for your jitters?), then you fucks will splutter with outrage, guaranteed

I'd be fine with either one.  Neither of them are essential goods.

If such a soda tax were implemented, I'd doubt it'd be funneled 100% to the program or spent with 100% efficiency anyway.  Most of it would probably get diverted to various pet projects or get squandered in some UHC program, like a health care equivalent of D.A.R.E.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Eel O'Brian on September 19, 2009, 07:27:22 PM
i'm not fine with these types of targeted microtaxations
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on September 19, 2009, 07:33:43 PM
Yeah, when I said "I'm personally cool with this" I just meant it might (slightly) benefit me personally.  I don't have any particular opinion on whether it's a wise policy that increases aggregate welfare or whatever, except that I doubt it's likely to cause the world to end.  I do agree that too many tax code hacks have the cumulative effect of making taxes more complicated, which aggravates various problems.

Caffeine is good for me!
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 19, 2009, 07:55:18 PM
itt we see a terrific example of people not giving a shit about things which don't affect them

when they slap down a game tax (for "education funding") or an extra coffee tax (because, you know, caffeine is pretty horrible for you when you think about it, and why should the rest of america pay for your jitters?), then you fucks will splutter with outrage, guaranteed

Has the slippery slope libertarian theory ever held up?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Eel O'Brian on September 19, 2009, 07:59:58 PM
fuck you, i'm no libertarian, i despise you all equally

if you can't see where this type of bullshit adds up over time, then you're either blinded by idealism or just plain stupid

forgive me, forgot where i was posting for a moment



Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 19, 2009, 08:06:03 PM
fuck you, i'm no libertarian, i despise you all equally

if you can't see where this type of bullshit adds up over time, then you're either blinded by idealism or just plain stupid

forgive me, forgot where i was posting for a moment

I'm not calling you a libertarian, but the argument certainly is. I mean, if they tax cigarettes, then they'll want to tax red meat and then you will be jailed for eating bacon! The sky is falling!

This argument never really works, though.

If anything, while the precedent has been set that luxuries can be taxed by the government, neither tobacco or alcohol have been banned.

I don't really consider it an assault on our personal freedoms, and I don't think it's idealist when there's very little evidence to support that claim.

... The concept that there could be a tax on something like entertainment seems a silly analogy to make.

And while I'm not against a tax on soda, I am against a tax on soda if it's the government "end all, be all" solution. Like I said before Zero Hero, the subsidy is the really problem.

I'm not in favor of dumping the subsidy entirely either, but making it a subsidy for actual farmers and not corporations.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 19, 2009, 08:26:17 PM
Isn't obesity and diabetes caused by starchy foods and maybe just only slightly by raw sugars?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 19, 2009, 08:39:46 PM
American drinks don't have raw sugar, am nintenho.

They have high fructose corn syrup, arguably worse than sugar, and is relatively cheap thanks to corn subsidies (you can link that to starch on your own, right?).
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: OptimoPeach on September 19, 2009, 08:46:29 PM
There's no "arguably" about it, that shit is bad news.

Anyway, I thought they ended corn subsidies years ago, but I kinda live with my head in the sand, so yeah
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: chronovore on September 19, 2009, 09:09:43 PM
REAL TALK:

Why does this make everyone so mad?

Doesn't it piss you off that companies have been jacking their drinks full of corn syrup for decades? Doesnt it piss you off that enormo food corps have been exploiting the human diet and drive to consume to make mega profits while making Americans less healthy than ever? There's a place in India where Coke fucking DRAINED THE WATER TABLE DRY. A lawsuit means they now have to supply that town with water forever. Because they fucking used it all to make soft drinks. That doesn't piss you off?

What pisses you off is a 5 cent tax on your too-sweet soda? Gimmie a fucking break. Get real.

American drinks don't have raw sugar, am nintenho.

They have high fructose corn syrup, arguably worse than sugar, and is relatively cheap thanks to corn subsidies (you can link that to starch on your own, right?).
There's no "arguably" about it, that shit is bad news.

Anyway, I thought they ended corn subsidies years ago, but I kinda live with my head in the sand, so yeah

Is it even "arguable" at this point? Unless we're talking about studies funded by Coca-Cola, I thought it was pretty much proven that the crap is extra bad. At this point the companies should cease manufacturing with it, but their production process relies on HFCS to such a degree that producing questionable counter-studies and lobbying for the continuation of the corn subsidy in the age of corporate megafarming is more financially feasible. That, and no large group ever likes "change."
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: GilloD on September 19, 2009, 10:05:26 PM
REAL TALK:

Why does this make everyone so mad?

Doesn't it piss you off that companies have been jacking their drinks full of corn syrup for decades? Doesnt it piss you off that enormo food corps have been exploiting the human diet and drive to consume to make mega profits while making Americans less healthy than ever? There's a place in India where Coke fucking DRAINED THE WATER TABLE DRY. A lawsuit means they now have to supply that town with water forever. Because they fucking used it all to make soft drinks. That doesn't piss you off?

What pisses you off is a 5 cent tax on your too-sweet soda? Gimmie a fucking break. Get real.

American drinks don't have raw sugar, am nintenho.

They have high fructose corn syrup, arguably worse than sugar, and is relatively cheap thanks to corn subsidies (you can link that to starch on your own, right?).
There's no "arguably" about it, that shit is bad news.

Anyway, I thought they ended corn subsidies years ago, but I kinda live with my head in the sand, so yeah

Is it even "arguable" at this point? Unless we're talking about studies funded by Coca-Cola, I thought it was pretty much proven that the crap is extra bad. At this point the companies should cease manufacturing with it, but their production process relies on HFCS to such a degree that producing questionable counter-studies and lobbying for the continuation of the corn subsidy in the age of corporate megafarming is more financially feasible. That, and no large group ever likes "change."

The "bad"ness of HFCS is up in the air. The problem is that it doesn't just replace sugar, it adds sugar to our diet. A soda that had maybe 20g of sugar 40 years ago now has 38g. The WHO recommended daily intake for an adult male is 40g. One nice thing about Korea is sensible beverages sizes. Most beverages comes in 8 oz sizes. You can only nab 16 oz and up in America. And if I get 16 oz, I'll drink 16 oz. Human beings are programmed this way.

Anyway, Pepsi has that new Pepsi Natural made with sugar. But a 16 oz bottle has SIXTY- 6 0- 10*6- GRAMS OF SUGAR in it. Sugar is bad for you. We get most of the sugar our bodies need from carbohydrates. Now, a little added sugar isn't going to kill you and it fucking tastes good. So, have a soda now and then. ENjoy some ice cream. I'm not saying don't eat these things, but they have been engineered to fucking kill you.

In High School my Comp Sci teacher's brother was some bigwig at Pepsi. He wouldn't let his family anywhere near the stuff.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 19, 2009, 10:25:48 PM
American drinks don't have raw sugar, am nintenho.

They have high fructose corn syrup, arguably worse than sugar, and is relatively cheap thanks to corn subsidies (you can link that to starch on your own, right?).
I would argue against subsidizing corn to make biofuels but I'm not convinced of taking away all subsidies for it just yet.  It's probably the most important food crop in the world.

Chemically though, what does fructose do to you that sucrose doesn't?  They both make a most likely negligible amount of the total carbs you get everyday so I don't get how it would cause a huge insulin spike or be a major contributor to obesity.

There is correlative data between higher amounts of HFCS and obesity but well..no shit.  Obese people often eat more sweets than they should and low fat ice cream is still not that good for you.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 20, 2009, 08:48:42 PM
A clip from King Corn, a documentary about corn production/HFCS:
[youtube=560,345]jDurZc5Yr6c[/youtube]

Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 20, 2009, 11:14:01 PM
That clip doesn't really show the ultimate point of the movie but according to the wiki summary, the documentary documentary is about how corn production gotten more and more industrialized and family farms have been getting driven away.  I'd imagine there was also a similar trend with potato production in Idaho and whatever.  I don't really get what the message or goal of the movie would be though.

Also, does anybody actually believe sin taxes curb consumption?  I just think of those taxes as the most morally acceptable way for the government to get the taxes it needs to function.  Like most people are more all right with a higher tax on an unnecessary good like alcohol then a higher tax on diapers.

Corn/HFCS is used in so many things that they can't put a sin tax on it directly.  If it is actually very unhealthy for you, this type of law would be like putting a sin tax on vodka and not beer.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 20, 2009, 11:38:30 PM
Takeaways from King Corn -

- corn is in almost everything we eat now, sweetening everything unnecessarily and adding junk calories with zero nutritional value
- it's inedible to humans without a crazy degree of processing to turn it into syrup (sweet corn is relatively rare these days)
- it's literally poisonous to animals, including the cattle we force-feed it to. That's why corn-fed cattle are so riddled with disease. If they weren't slaughtered, they'd die at only a few years old on that diet.
- centralization and industrialization of food production result in perishable items being marginalized, and weird things that can sit for months in the open and have to have enzymes and acids applied to them to be even potable come to dominate. Nutrition is lost at the expense of raw calories in an easily-storable, transportable form. We can live on this stuff, but not thrive.

There's no point in taxing it with one hand while the govt. is paying subsidies for it with the other. The subsidies of course are an easy way to buy votes in the Midwest so they'll be hard to get rid of as well. The problems here are way too big to be solved by a tax on soft drinks; I'm sure the researchers in the OP realize that and are just doing this as a publicity stunt.

Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 20, 2009, 11:53:51 PM
- it's inedible to humans without a crazy degree of processing to turn it into syrup (sweet corn is relatively rare these days)
I'm confused by this point.  What do you mean by inedible?

And of course HFCS, like table sugar, isn't nutritious for you and just adds empty calories but is it really the main cause for our health problems?  I mean, if we want to cut back on the average American's caloric intake then the only realistic way is to cut back on starches/fats and that doesn't start with any taxes on corn or HFCS or anything, that can only happen through eating smaller food portions.

That is common sense.  It won't win any votes/get a bunch of publicity.  It will happen over several decades though probably I think.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 21, 2009, 12:55:01 AM
inedible means "cannot be eaten".

Most people hear "corn" and think of that nice sweet corn-on-the-cob stuff. That isn't what we're talking about here. Sweet corn is a relatively rare crop these days. Humans literally cannot feed themselves on the type of corn grown in the movie without processing the crap out of it.

It's not the only cause of health problems, no. Smaller food portions are absolutely necessary for most folks these days. But if they're still eating junk instead of nutritious perishable real food, they will still be diseased even if not obese.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Human Snorenado on September 21, 2009, 12:59:44 AM
Corn makes it's way into almost everything.  My dog has to eat a super expensive type of dry dog food because corn meal is in most dog foods and it makes his skin super itchy and makes him stink to high heaven when he eats it.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 21, 2009, 01:10:53 AM
Let me just add that I understand the sentiment (boiling up under the surface of am nintenho's posts here) that folks just need to get off their asses and stop eating so goddamn much. There is a great amount of truth in it. But it's still an oversimplification. You need to be concerned with quantity AND quality to eat in a way that won't slowly kill you, these days.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 21, 2009, 01:14:48 AM
Let me just add that I understand the sentiment (boiling up under the surface of am nintenho's posts here) that folks just need to get off their asses and stop eating so goddamn much. There is a great amount of truth in it. But it's still an oversimplification. You need to be concerned with quantity AND quality to eat in a way that won't slowly kill you, these days.

Ding ding ding!

A lot of obesity can also be traced to poverty, not laziness. Single parents and those under the poverty line probably work so much that they can barely rest, well enough monitor their children's physical education.

Not to mention that they'll buy all the cheap, easy-to-make foods at the market and none of it is good for you.

We've got a lot more problems than just lazy people.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Fragamemnon on September 21, 2009, 01:22:04 AM
Not to mention that they'll buy all the cheap, easy-to-make foods at the market and none of it is good for you.

This is the real problem IMO. You've got companies that are making products that are really terrible for you to eat.

Personally, I think we should have a new label-a huge fat person on a rascal scooter-that gets put on the box or bag of the shit food out there. Let people KNOW that what they are buying is crap and they'll pick something that's less crappy-there's a huge education issue made worse by decades of bad-and now ingrained-food policy. Also, programs to provide local fresh food co-ops and markets to inner cities and other under served areas so they can actually buy fresh produce at reasonable prices.

Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 21, 2009, 01:33:45 AM
If everyone could afford to shop at farmer's markets and eat grass-fed meats and fish from the sea, we wouldn't have most of these issues. But good luck even FINDING a vegetable in many urban areas, never mind an organic one.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Mandark on September 21, 2009, 01:36:07 AM
itt we see a terrific example of people not giving a shit about things which don't affect them

when they slap down a game tax (for "education funding") or an extra coffee tax (because, you know, caffeine is pretty horrible for you when you think about it, and why should the rest of america pay for your jitters?), then you fucks will splutter with outrage, guaranteed

First they came for Mr. Pibb, and I did not speak out--because I was not Mr. Pibb
Then they came for Dr. Pepper, and I did not speak out—because I was not Dr. Pepper


Honkey please.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 21, 2009, 01:37:40 AM
This is the real problem IMO. You've got companies that are making products that are really terrible for you to eat.

Personally, I think we should have a new label-a huge fat person on a rascal scooter-that gets put on the box or bag of the shit food out there. Let people KNOW that what they are buying is crap and they'll pick something that's less crappy-there's a huge education issue made worse by decades of bad-and now ingrained-food policy. Also, programs to provide local fresh food co-ops and markets to inner cities and other under served areas so they can actually buy fresh produce at reasonable prices.

I agree with that. It angers me when people say incredibly ignorant stuff like, "WHY DON'T THEY JUST BUY FROM WHOLE FOODS OR TRADER JOES?!"

As if all the food from there is healthy (it's not), or that those type of markets are very accessible to impoverished, urban areas.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: cool breeze on September 21, 2009, 01:42:19 AM
We should find a new transportation system and nuke all the roads, replace them with farms and stuff.  We're gonna make America healthy again.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 21, 2009, 01:48:13 AM
I like the cut of your jib.

Unfortunately, in case you haven't noticed, we live in America. That means we debate solving problems to items that are obviously broken beyond repair, until we pass something that is ultimately pointless or makes things significantly worse.

Then we continue to grumble as corporations slowly kill us, financially and physically, and begin to languish a stagnant power.  As our global influence declines, the country becomes irrelevant and everyone will move to China.

The end.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: cool breeze on September 21, 2009, 02:02:27 AM
I just think we should have a replacement for cars by now.  We've been using these things for 100+ years now, right? whenever I see other people driving, it's always a single person driving something meant for five (or more) and most only care about going from Point A to B.  And public transportation isn't a good answer because most of it sucks (in America...Germany's U-Bahn  :heartbeat). The future is such a letdown.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: cool breeze on September 21, 2009, 02:13:15 AM
and most only care about going from Point A to B.

 ???

As opposed to?

(over)drifting
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Raban on September 21, 2009, 02:37:05 AM
I haven't really read into this, but I'm not against taxing unhealthy food. Not like it's going to stop the fatties, though. Taxing a liter of cola at 98 cents is still only going to be like a $1.25. Fat people aren't going to be climbing the walls of the capitol building over that one.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 21, 2009, 03:01:00 AM
It's not the only cause of health problems, no. Smaller food portions are absolutely necessary for most folks these days. But if they're still eating junk instead of nutritious perishable real food, they will still be diseased even if not obese.
There are artificial sources for vitamins and minerals so I would say that at the moment, lowering caloric intake is a bigger priority.  Even if you go to a supermarket in an urban area, you can find affordable and healthy food.  It might not be the best tasting food in the store and eating a reasonable amount of it probably won't make the average person full, but those are the things that make diets work.

Saying we need more farmer's markets is way too narrow of a solution.  If people don't know or care about healthy foods, then what's the point of giving them cheaper produce?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 21, 2009, 03:08:36 AM
People don't necessarily buy unhealthy food because it tastes good (of course we all do time to time), but because they can make a lot of it quickly and for very cheap. And for most folks, am nintenho, they simply do not have the time or budget to eat healthy.

It doesn't even have to do with caloric intake, because eating right will always make you feel better. That doesn't even make any sense. Junk food is designed to make you feel not full.

To buy healthy produce and keep costs in line, that requires the person to do most of the prep work. That requires time.

Prepared meals of the healthy variety are significantly more expensive then unhealthy, processed foods.

If you're a single parent or someone with little money, who works an unreasonable amount of hours per week, are you going to spend a certain budgeted amount on skinless chicken breasts, spice/marinate them and grill them or buy a box of fried chicken you can microwave?

Your ability to not comprehend that is mind boggling.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 21, 2009, 03:33:44 AM
Prep time doesn't depend on change based on whether you buy your food from safeway or a fruit stand.  You realistically need like 40 minutes to make anything.

My point was that the basic ingredients for a healthy meal can still be bought at any supermarket.  People may not have the time/energy to make those foods or maybe they just don't care, but that's just a different issue that hopefully can be fixed by people caring more about their diet in the future.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: GilloD on September 21, 2009, 03:54:07 AM
Prep time doesn't depend on change based on whether you buy your food from safeway or a fruit stand.  You realistically need like 40 minutes to make anything.

My point was that the basic ingredients for a healthy meal can still be bought at any supermarket.  People may not have the time/energy to make those foods or maybe they just don't care, but that's just a different issue that hopefully can be fixed by people caring more about their diet in the future.

If you're a family of 4 living below the poverty line, you can't AFFORD healthy food. From a purely caloric standpoint, a dollar worth of junky shitty food will feed your family far more effectively than a dollar worth of apples. In some places an apple is MORE than a dollar. Have a peek here: http://www.mymoneyblog.com/archives/2007/01/what-does-200-calories-cost-the-economics-of-obesity.html

This is, in part, because of a broken subsidy system that makes it economically viable to make shitty bad for you food while making good for you stuff more expensive.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 21, 2009, 04:16:43 AM
Quote from: am nintenho
You realistically need like 40 minutes to make anything.

Are you an only child? :lol

Also, what GilloD said.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Dickie Dee on September 21, 2009, 10:38:50 AM
I remember a while ago looking at the back of a Craisins bag and seeing the list of ingredients (in order of volume as always): Sucrose, Cranberries...

I was all :o, though it seems they've lowered it in recent years so the main ingredient in Craisins are actually Craisins.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 21, 2009, 01:42:08 PM
Prep time doesn't depend on change based on whether you buy your food from safeway or a fruit stand.  You realistically need like 40 minutes to make anything.
My point was that the basic ingredients for a healthy meal can still be bought at any supermarket.  People may not have the time/energy to make those foods or maybe they just don't care, but that's just a different issue that hopefully can be fixed by people caring more about their diet in the future.
If you're a family of 4 living below the poverty line, you can't AFFORD healthy food. From a purely caloric standpoint, a dollar worth of junky shitty food will feed your family far more effectively than a dollar worth of apples. In some places an apple is MORE than a dollar. Have a peek here: http://www.mymoneyblog.com/archives/2007/01/what-does-200-calories-cost-the-economics-of-obesity.html
This is, in part, because of a broken subsidy system that makes it economically viable to make shitty bad for you food while making good for you stuff more expensive.
I should make it clear that I don't know much about the lifestyle of people who live below the poverty line and of single-parent households where these problems are most extreme.  What I'm just saying is that the average person should be able to get the amount of calories and nutrients that they need using an equal or lower food budget.  This will of course mean that they're eating less though.

As far as corn subsidies, wouldn't taking them away just raise the price foods considering the unequal tax burden?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: The Fake Shemp on September 21, 2009, 01:53:30 PM
am nintenho, the United States has one of the highest (if not the highest) poverty rates out of industrialized nations.

Not to mention that 10% of households are run by a single parent, and your "average" American is either a lower or working middle class citizen, meaning that your funds are rather tight.

Again, are you an only child or something?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 21, 2009, 02:02:53 PM
No middle child.  Like I said I don't have any real knowledge about the costs and lifestyle of poor people in America.  If you're barely able to get the minimum amount of calories to survive even though you mainly are eating frozen pizzas and top ramen or something, then I don't even know where to start looking for a solution to that diet problem.  It just seems logical that corn subsidies, since corn is in so many foods, lowers the costs of food.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: huckleberry on September 21, 2009, 02:09:03 PM
Corn subsidies do lower the costs of food....shitty foods.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 21, 2009, 02:13:03 PM
But is there any effect on the cost of other produce?
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Tauntaun on September 21, 2009, 02:52:42 PM
We should find a new transportation system and nuke all the roads, replace them with farms and stuff.  We're gonna make America healthy again.

I hear radiation is good for the soil. 

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:teehee
[close]
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 21, 2009, 04:35:49 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PuZoLkvmBbc/SWaB5c_jgvI/AAAAAAAACBk/SUfJQP-ayFc/s320/Tomacco.jpg)
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 21, 2009, 08:39:03 PM
Well, using corn lowers the cost of food, or rather raises the caloric value for money of crappy processed food, but of course the subsidies aren't actually FREE so ultimately it ends up costing you all anyway. Not to mention the lunatic healthcare costs that it contributes hugely to.

Why not subsidize something unequivocally good for you, like broccoli? God knows if we put our mind to it we could find ways to turn broccoli into as versatile a food as corn. Seriously. I mean, if you told your great grandfather that we'd be turning that shitty corn into syrup and pumping it into bacon and sausage, they'd never have believed you. Humans have a great track record of taking what's in surplus in the natural world and finding ways to consume it. If we had mountains of surplus cheap broccoli, you can bet your ass we'd all be eating it and not even knowing we were doing so.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 21, 2009, 09:34:49 PM
Thank god my own bratty wouldn't-eat-my-greens backtalk wasn't recorded on the internet for all time...
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: FlameOfCallandor on September 21, 2009, 09:50:18 PM
This thread is full of awesome.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 21, 2009, 11:41:55 PM
you're not leaving this forum until you've cleared the plate young man
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 22, 2009, 12:22:07 AM
Well, using corn lowers the cost of food, or rather raises the caloric value for money of crappy processed food, but of course the subsidies aren't actually FREE so ultimately it ends up costing you all anyway. Not to mention the lunatic healthcare costs that it contributes hugely to.

Why not subsidize something unequivocally good for you, like broccoli? God knows if we put our mind to it we could find ways to turn broccoli into as versatile a food as corn. Seriously. I mean, if you told your great grandfather that we'd be turning that shitty corn into syrup and pumping it into bacon and sausage, they'd never have believed you. Humans have a great track record of taking what's in surplus in the natural world and finding ways to consume it. If we had mountains of surplus cheap broccoli, you can bet your ass we'd all be eating it and not even knowing we were doing so.
Fun fact, corn and broccoli have actually both been cultivated extensively by farmers to fit our food needs.  Broccoli is actually from the species Brassica oleracea or Wild Mustard, but it just was cultivated to have a very high amount of flower heads.  cauliflower, cabbage, brussel sprouts and some other stuff all come from Wild Mustard but they are just different lineages with designed to have some parts larger or smaller.  Same thing with corn where now it's actually unable to grow in the wild.

I know you were probably just joking but the whole idea of changing our food sources in such a radical way just sounds to me like it's too big of a project for any politician, political group, or hippies to try and tackle.  Even if it is better for virtually everyone's health.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: Cormacaroni on September 22, 2009, 01:22:18 AM
Why is it so big a project? The whole corn thing was pretty much the work of the Dept. of Agriculture in the 1970's. Sure, lots of folks depend on those subsidies for their livelihoods and lots of businesses thrive on cheap sweeteners but far more people suffer from eating this crap.

Market forces will decide. Either people become sufficiently aware of the health issues from what they're eating, and change their habits, or they won't. If they do, it'll become more economically attractive to be a small, organic farmer than a huge govt. subsidized corn-growing machine. Actually, I hear that it's already a very attractive proposition in many markets. People are willing to pay a premium for grass-fed meat and organic veggies already...the trend just needs to continue to grow.

Not sure what the relevance of your food facts are to any of this. Perhaps none was intended. Obviously almost everything we farm is significantly different from the original wild forms. I'm certainly not opposed to smart farming, i.e. producing more of a good thing, ideally with minimal impact on the rest of the environment.
Title: Re: Taxes proposed for soft drinks
Post by: brawndolicious on September 22, 2009, 02:08:25 AM
I was just pointing out something funny with broccoli.

And are you serious about organic?  You get about half the yield per acre and chemically, it is the same food.  Obviously, there is some taste difference if you don't naturally ripen the inorganic food but the organic market is a goddamn scam these days.  Like you said, it is profitable for some farmer's but that's because of the huge mark-up on the food (organic dairy farming causes a 15% drop in yield but the milk somehow costs twice as much).

I mean, you probably know about that Norman Borloug guy who said that in organic nitrates, we only produce enough to feed 4 billion people so that just makes it a more backwards idea when we're probably going to top out around 10-15 billion people on the planet.  I can understand if somebody is a little bit suspicious of GMO's but I've never seen any scientific evidence that synthetic fertilizers or pesticides are any worse for ourselves or our environment than the organic alternatives.