THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Diunx on May 06, 2010, 11:15:11 AM

Title: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Diunx on May 06, 2010, 11:15:11 AM
http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri

Quote
SWAT team breaks into home, fires seven rounds at family's pit bull and corgi (?!) as a seven-year-old looks on.

    They found a "small amount" of marijuana, enough for a misdemeanor charge. The parents were then charged with child endangerment.

    So smoking pot = "child endangerment." Storming a home with guns, then firing bullets into the family pets as a child looks on = necessary police procedures to ensure everyone's safety.

    Just so we're clear.

:bow :greenshinobi :bow2
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 06, 2010, 11:26:33 AM
Looked like they knocked first to me.  :teehee

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'd flip out if cops busted into my house and shot my dog though.
[close]
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 11:29:32 AM
Yeah, I was about to say, they actually knocked. :lol

Looks like they only took out the pitbull, you see the other dog walking past them. :lol

Moral of the story: don't break the law!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 06, 2010, 11:35:12 AM
you see the other dog walking past them. :lol

Wait, what?  :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 06, 2010, 11:35:28 AM
Leper Willco.  Icon Green Shinobi.

You know it's the right thing to do. :greenshinobi
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 11:38:09 AM
you see the other dog walking past them. :lol

Wait, what?  :lol

In the video, when the guy is laying down in the hallway, you can clearly see the other dog walking past them. He says something to the effect of, "Don't shoot my dog, he's a nice dog!" and the dog walks behind them. :lol

Looks like they killed the pitbull, though. If I was a cop entering a guy's house that was suspected as a major distributor, I probably wouldn't want to deal with the pitbull either.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2010, 11:42:47 AM
Annihilated!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: tehjaybo on May 06, 2010, 11:44:21 AM
"Wouldn't want to" and "shooting a family pet in front of a child" are two different things.  

Now, I support the police force in most cases.  But this is just too much.  

Looks like they killed the pitbull, though. If I was a cop entering a guy's house that was suspected as a major distributor, I probably wouldn't want to deal with the pitbull either.

Was he suspected of being a major distributor?  As far as I could tell, he just had some weed on him.  If that's how police are supposed to proceed on any sort of possession charge, then keep that shit as far from me as possible.

If he was suspected of being a major distributor, then at least wait until the kid is gone or something... I don't know.  They had to have been watching the house to suspect the guy and get a warrant..  they had to know that kid was in there.  No amount of therapy is going to fix that kid.  The police are always going to be those guys that killed his best friend.  Or, if he liked the other dog better, his second best friend.  Whatever.  Still.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 06, 2010, 11:47:19 AM
If he was suspected of being a major distributor, then at least wait until the kid is gone or something... I don't know.  They had to have been watching the house to suspect the guy and get a warrant..  they had to know that kid was in there.  No amount of therapy is going to fix that kid.  The police are always going to be those guys that killed his best friend.

When I was growing up, my best friend got killed on a regular basis by cars.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Robo on May 06, 2010, 11:48:46 AM
Was he suspected of being a major distributor?  As far as I could tell, he just had some weed on him.  If that's how police are supposed to proceed on any sort of possession charge, then keep that shit as far from me as possible.

T234 is gonna get all of your pets murdered by law enforcement.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: tehjaybo on May 06, 2010, 11:51:51 AM
If he was suspected of being a major distributor, then at least wait until the kid is gone or something... I don't know.  They had to have been watching the house to suspect the guy and get a warrant..  they had to know that kid was in there.  No amount of therapy is going to fix that kid.  The police are always going to be those guys that killed his best friend.

When I was growing up, my best friend got killed on a regular basis by cars.

You didn't keep them on a leash or in a fenced in area or inside?  That's your own neglect.  It's a little different when the police drop 7 .223 rounds through it from one of 6 assault rifles they raided that house with.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 11:53:30 AM
Was he suspected of being a major distributor?  As far as I could tell, he just had some weed on him.  If that's how police are supposed to proceed on any sort of possession charge, then keep that shit as far from me as possible.

If he was suspected of being a major distributor, then at least wait until the kid is gone or something... I don't know.  They had to have been watching the house to suspect the guy and get a warrant..  they had to know that kid was in there.  No amount of therapy is going to fix that kid.  The police are always going to be those guys that killed his best friend.  Or, if he liked the other dog better, his second best friend.  Whatever.  Still.

They wouldn't have sent the SWAT team unless they thought he was a distributor and he had guns, both facts are expounded upon in the article. They also said if they believed they could have executed the warrant during the day, they would have.

The likelihood is they had bad intel, and this guy was connected to the wrong people.

Yeah, it totally sucks and the force was disproportionate to the bust, but it's not like they were raiding his house because they thought he had a dime bag. :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: BlueTsunami on May 06, 2010, 12:01:25 PM
Man, I nominate this thread for thread of unintentional hilarity of 2010.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Donono on May 06, 2010, 12:05:51 PM
They fucked up.  People will find some way to justify it and write it off though.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 06, 2010, 12:05:54 PM
If he was suspected of being a major distributor, then at least wait until the kid is gone or something... I don't know.  They had to have been watching the house to suspect the guy and get a warrant..  they had to know that kid was in there.  No amount of therapy is going to fix that kid.  The police are always going to be those guys that killed his best friend.

When I was growing up, my best friend got killed on a regular basis by cars.

You didn't keep them on a leash or in a fenced in area or inside?  That's your own neglect.

No, we kept them in a fenced in area. They'd just dig out.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: tehjaybo on May 06, 2010, 12:08:28 PM
I still think a dog being hit by a car and getting shot by the police are two different things, psychologically.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 06, 2010, 12:09:33 PM
I still think a dog being hit by a car and getting shot by the police are two different things, psychologically.

My best friends all died, dude! Don't belittle that!!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Bloodwake on May 06, 2010, 12:12:55 PM
Man, I nominate this thread for thread of unintentional hilarity of 2010.

Seconded, so fucking funny.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: tehjaybo on May 06, 2010, 12:14:25 PM
Oh.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mandark on May 06, 2010, 02:17:34 PM
They wouldn't have sent the SWAT team unless they thought he was a distributor and he had guns, both facts are expounded upon in the article.

According to the article the SWAT team handles all similar warrants.  They had no particular reason to believe this man was armed.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 02:20:11 PM
O RLY, Mandark? (http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/feb/23/family-questions-swat-drug-search-that-led-to/)

Quote from: Columbia Daily Tribune
Drug distributors traditionally have a history with firearms, which is why the SWAT team is used when executing such warrants, [police spokeswoman Officer Jessie Haden] said.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mandark on May 06, 2010, 02:36:58 PM
That's the exact sentence I was referring to, actually.

They wouldn't have sent the SWAT team unless they thought he was a distributor and he had guns, both facts are expounded upon in the article.

The point is they don't have those two separate requirements before sending the SWAT.  They apparently send the SWAT team for all alleged distributors, without any independent evidence of firearms.

They had no particular reason to think this man was armed.

You can still be in favor of that sort of policy, but what you said just isn't the case.  That's all.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 02:59:00 PM
I think the fact that they thought he was a distributor - which "traditionally have a history with firearms" - is reason enough to assume that the man was armed. I don't get how you don't see that.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mupepe on May 06, 2010, 03:01:38 PM
You're buying the line just like the Police want you to.  Of course they're going to say that after this whole debacle.  What do you want them to say?  "We busted in armed and ready even though we didn't really have any evidence to suggest this guy was armed."

Is that what you'd want to hear?  Is that what you'd like them to say??? :smug

:teehee
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: T234 on May 06, 2010, 03:10:07 PM
Just how much weed did it take for the cops to shoot the family dog in front of the kids? No amount of grass is worth busting down somebody's door and permanently fucking their kid's psyche to shit.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 06, 2010, 03:10:37 PM
I somehow think Greece is responsible for this as well.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 03:10:39 PM
Again, the SWAT team is not going to show up to some guy's house because they thought he had a dime bag. They thought he was a distributor and as so, likely had firearms.

The suggestion that a bunch of cops strapped on gear and busted down this guy's door for kicks is ridiculous. :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mupepe on May 06, 2010, 03:12:48 PM
I guess you don't know many cops.  They do shit like that all the time. 
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 03:15:16 PM
We live in a police state!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: OptimoPeach on May 06, 2010, 03:19:06 PM
Aww the poor idiot dealing from the house where his wife and kid sleep :'( As for the pit, the cops were just being proactive and saving the kid from having his balls ripped off. Looks like another victory for justice
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mupepe on May 06, 2010, 03:22:32 PM
I bet those cops are smoking that weed right now and laughing about this shit.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 03:23:06 PM
Yeah, that's the most likely scenario.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: BlueTsunami on May 06, 2010, 03:29:51 PM
Don't shit where you eat, words to live by. Low end pot dealers are so fucking lazy and unambitious that that dealing from their own place of residents is an acceptable risk. Make some easy monies, or stay in and watch Law and Order? How' bout' both? :derp
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Himu on May 06, 2010, 03:32:43 PM
hahahahahahaha
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: huckleberry on May 06, 2010, 03:35:39 PM
who gives a fuck about the dog?  Fuck the dog......people walk them by my house all the time and they bark and growl and want to attack you...fuck em. Especially if the cops think the bastard is going to go for their balls.


Maybe Boogie can provide insight as to what the procedure is when a 7 year old kid is in the house and they serve a warrant like this. This is my problem with the story...and the shooting.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mupepe on May 06, 2010, 03:42:03 PM
Don't shit where you eat, words to live by. Low end pot dealers are so fucking lazy and unambitious that that dealing from their own place of residents is an acceptable risk. Make some easy monies, or stay in and watch Law and Order? How' bout' both? :derp
Law and Order?  Fuck that.  Stay home.  Smoke some kill and watch Boomerang Flinstones and Jetsons re-runs, my nig.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Skidmark on May 06, 2010, 03:45:04 PM
This was just stupid, there are no hostages inside so I don't really understand why they had to make such decisions in a hurry.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mupepe on May 06, 2010, 03:45:47 PM
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kM5LLhHb2YQ/SeYENidvYCI/AAAAAAAAASc/X5G9h5qNgB4/s400/swat-cat.jpg)
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mupepe on May 06, 2010, 03:56:38 PM
Shoot the kid.  Problem solved.

"What kid?"
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Diunx on May 06, 2010, 07:48:56 PM
The only solution is for one of the cops to have a gun with sleep darts to shoot the dogs and kids so they won't get in the way, he could wear a bandanna and a sneaky suit.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 06, 2010, 08:04:37 PM
Wow, I finally read the article.  I used to work with the guy who wrote it.  A few years ago police raids really became his raison d'être as a writer. 

I don't understand why ever small town in America needs a SWAT team.  The militarization of police forces around the country is really out of control. 

Looks like a classic arms race to me.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: brawndolicious on May 06, 2010, 08:57:25 PM
They killed Killer, man!
/scarface

WTF do you guys expect?  They enter what I'm guessing is a drug dealer's house and see a pit bull so they shoot it.  If it in fact wasn't trained as an attack dog, then it's a tragedy but it's not like they just wanted to shoot something to get their dicks hard.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 06, 2010, 08:58:02 PM
Highlight of this thread is Willco trying to spin things to justify the insanely excessive force the SWAT team used. :lol

Green Shinobi won.  :'(
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2010, 09:04:37 PM
Highlight of this thread is Willco trying to spin things to justify the insanely excessive force the SWAT team used. :lol

Green Shinobi won.  :'(

How's this surprising when Jews are used to spinning things to justify the insanely excessive force of the Israeli government?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 06, 2010, 09:24:58 PM
My cousin's a state trooper, and he looooves to get out his taser at the least provocation, so I totally think The Business's theory is on point.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 06, 2010, 09:53:10 PM
Wow, I finally read the article.  I used to work with the guy who wrote it.  A few years ago police raids really became his raison d'être as a writer. 

I don't understand why ever small town in America needs a SWAT team.  The militarization of police forces around the country is really out of control. 

Looks like a classic arms race to me.

I don't know if there was some sort of implied pun here or something but it really is. 


I'm being entirely literal, so we agree. As long as meth-heads can have AK-47s, police chiefs will continue to sign off on SWAT teams with body armor and high-powered rifles rather than regular beat cops with nightsticks. One of the variables has to change for the other to change, which I'm sure you recognize.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 06, 2010, 09:58:11 PM
Highlight of this thread is Willco trying to spin things to justify the insanely excessive force the SWAT team used. :lol

Again, I don't see how standard warrant execution by a SWAT team when busting in the house of a suspected drug dealer is excessive. Either their intel was wrong or the guy moved the stuff out of the house by then.

How about putting some responsibility on the father, who if not a dealer, then at least jeopardized his family's security by hanging around with the wrong people? That's just fucking stupid.

If this was a matter of the SWAT team busting into some random guy's house because they saw him smoking a joint, that would be a different discussion altogether. The amount of cynicism in this thread is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 06, 2010, 11:48:32 PM
Highlight of this thread is Willco trying to spin things to justify the insanely excessive force the SWAT team used. :lol

Again, I don't see how standard warrant execution by a SWAT team when busting in the house of a suspected drug dealer is excessive. Either their intel was wrong or the guy moved the stuff out of the house by then.

You're working off a false premise.  Story doesn't even begin to imply either of the two possibilities you're thinking of are true.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Smooth Groove on May 06, 2010, 11:54:11 PM
But the holocaust... :fbm
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 06, 2010, 11:56:06 PM
I can't believe that poor dog was killed, to no one's tears...

smh SWAT team
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: brawndolicious on May 06, 2010, 11:58:20 PM
You're working off a false premise.  Story doesn't even begin to imply either of the two possibilities you're thinking of are true.

Well I highly doubt that even a single officer would have been sent to the guy's house if they just believed he was just a private user.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 07, 2010, 12:01:04 AM
You're working off a false premise.  Story doesn't even begin to imply either of the two possibilities you're thinking of are true.

Well I highly doubt that even a single officer would have been sent to the guy's house if they just believed he was just a private user.

I think you have no idea how stupid small-town cops can be.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Diunx on May 07, 2010, 12:07:47 AM
But the holocaust... :fbm

:lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: BlackMage on May 07, 2010, 12:16:20 AM
who gives a fuck about the dog?  Fuck the dog......people walk them by my house all the time and they bark and growl and want to attack you...fuck em. Especially if the cops think the bastard is going to go for their balls.


Maybe Boogie can provide insight as to what the procedure is when a 7 year old kid is in the house and they serve a warrant like this. This is my problem with the story...and the shooting.

fuck u asshole
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 07, 2010, 12:19:22 AM
You're working off a false premise.  Story doesn't even begin to imply either of the two possibilities you're thinking of are true.

Uh, what? The article specifically states that the warrant was executed because they thought he was a distributor, which is why SWAT was brought in. :lol

Specifically mentioned here (http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/feb/23/family-questions-swat-drug-search-that-led-to/):

Quote
Police discovered a grinder, a pipe and a small amount of marijuana, Haden said. Because the SWAT team acts on the most updated information available, the team wanted to enter the house before marijuana believed to be at the location could be distributed, she said.

“If you let too much time go by, then the drugs are not there,” she said.

Drug distributors traditionally have a history with firearms, which is why the SWAT team is used when executing such warrants, Haden said.

... and here (http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/may/03/drug-raid-inquiry-is-ongoing/):

Quote
Investigators believed Whitworth was in possession of a large amount of marijuana and was considered a distributor, Deputy Chief Tom Dresner said in February.
Title: Please read what I write, mang.
Post by: Mandark on May 07, 2010, 12:33:21 AM
I think the fact that they thought he was a distributor - which "traditionally have a history with firearms" - is reason enough to assume that the man was armed. I don't get how you don't see that.

Dude, I understand their reasoning.

I'm just pointing out that you claimed they used two criteria to determine whether to send in the SWAT team, when as a matter of policy they assume the second (presence of weapons) follows the first (being a distributor).  So it's really conditional on just the one thing.

Like I said, you can support or oppose that policy, but what you said earlier wasn't so, and they didn't have any "particular" (as opposed to categorical) reason to think this guy was armed.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 07, 2010, 12:39:42 AM
I never said that SWAT is sent in based on two separate criteria (you're arguing semantics at that point), but that those are the primary reasons why officers in paramilitary gear were sent in - it's irrelevant whether or not one of those is dependent on the other. That doesn't reduce the rationale behind using such force.

EDIT: And specifically for the sake of the argument, I don't think the fact that the officers assumed he had firearms based on the suspicion that he was a dealer should be underplayed.
Title: We're both arguing semantics and I'm winning.
Post by: Mandark on May 07, 2010, 12:43:59 AM
They wouldn't have sent the SWAT team unless they thought he was a distributor and he had guns, both facts are expounded upon in the article.

You italicized the "and", and referred to "both" facts.  QED.

Quote from: The Fake Shemp
That doesn't reduce the rationale behind using such force.

Which is not what I'm arguing at this point, man!  Don't be a JayDubya about this.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 07, 2010, 12:46:04 AM
Again, both are mentioned in the article! The police spokesperson talks about how they thought the suspect was a dealer and that the SWAT team is called in because of the fact that most distributors have a history with firearms.

I don't understand why the latter cannot be mentioned in the argument here.

If your complaint is that I should have stopped at dealer, and assumed that everyone in this thread would have guessed that SWAT was called in because dealers usually have firearms, uh really?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: lennedsay on May 07, 2010, 02:29:12 AM
This was in Columbia, MO?!  :lol  :-\

A few years back, they decriminalized small amounts of weed. All the college kids were getting caught and getting kicked off their sports team, so they just started issuing tickets instead. That town would be nonexistant without Mizzou and their sports teams, so the kids can get by with murder.

But the prick with a pitbull potentially selling to these poor, naive kids?  :maf He must pay...
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 07, 2010, 08:48:57 AM
Highlight of this thread is Willco trying to spin things to justify the insanely excessive force the SWAT team used. :lol

Green Shinobi won.  :'(

shooting a pitbull on a drug raid is "insanely excessive"  now? (hint: it's not and you're wrong)

Smh at the over the top rhetoric this incident is producing.  Yes, there was obviously a screwup in this situation, but the vitriol it's created here and in the GAF thread is just stupid.

Unfortunately I'm out of town on iPhone-only Internet access, so I can't spend the time in a drawn-out argument right now.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 07, 2010, 12:06:47 PM
Am i missing something , when did this raid happen?

Because... erm...

Quote
If you let too much time go by, then the drugs are not there,” she said.

Quote
Investigators believed Whitworth was in possession of a large amount of marijuana and was considered a distributor, Deputy Chief Tom Dresner said in February.



Yeah, the raid happened back in February. The video didn't come out until this week.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 07, 2010, 07:04:04 PM
Highlight of this thread is Willco trying to spin things to justify the insanely excessive force the SWAT team used. :lol

Green Shinobi won.  :'(

shooting a pitbull on a drug raid is "insanely excessive"  now? (hint: it's not and you're wrong)

Smh at the over the top rhetoric this incident is producing.  Yes, there was obviously a screwup in this situation, but the vitriol it's created here and in the GAF thread is just stupid.

Unfortunately I'm out of town on iPhone-only Internet access, so I can't spend the time in a drawn-out argument right now.

You've defended far-out insane cases of police brutality before, but you don't have much of a leg to stand on this time, especially considering you're now defending police shooting the shit out of a house with a 7-year-old kid in it.

Hint: You may be biased in this case.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: brawndolicious on May 07, 2010, 07:36:21 PM
You've defended far-out insane cases of police brutality before, but you don't have much of a leg to stand on this time, especially considering you're now defending police shooting the shit out of a house with a 7-year-old kid in it.

Hint: You may be biased in this case.
:lol what did they do a drive-by to clear it out?  The reality is that when a police officer does a drug bust and he sees a pit bull, he assumes it's a weapon.  It's not like they have the time to do a litmus test to see how temperamental the dog is.

The only possible thing that they could have tried to do better on this raid was trying to do it when the child wasn't home but it's likely that they didn't wan to risk losing their window and have the drugs moved out of the house (which is what obviously happened) or flushed.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 07, 2010, 07:48:03 PM
Okay, Ichi, I've got an hour at an internet cafe, let's play.


You've defended far-out insane cases of police brutality before,

Name them.  If you want to claim the above, point out the instances, and argue them with me.  I do not make blanket defences of law enforcement action.  Note that in the post you quoted I acknowledged that "Yes, there was obviously a screwup in this situation".

What I do, however, is explain use of force situations through the actual police use of force policy that guide police actions and the legal implications from them, and the reasoning behind them, to people, like you, who spout off grand declarations of "insanely excessive use of force."


Quote
but you don't have much of a leg to stand on this time, especially considering you're now defending police shooting the shit out of a house with a 7-year-old kid in it.

The raid taking place with kids in the house is one of the major problems with this situation.  However, that alone does not constitute excessive force.  Hypothetical:  Say the house was that of a piece-of-shit drug distributor dealing from the house with his kids in it, and when the police break down the door, daddy reaches for his AK, and the police blow him away.  The police would still have "shot the shit" out of a house with 7-year olds.  But it would not have been "insanely excessive force."

Which is to say, context matters.  The raid occuring with kids in the house was, in my opinion, gross negligence by the investigators.  But it was not "insanely excessive" use of force.  Can you understand the difference?  Do you understand why it is important to be precise with one's language?

Quote
Hint: You may be biased in this case.

Oh, that's original, accuse the cop of bias.  Worked out real well for Green Shinobi, too.


Okay, now, on to speaking about the situation more generally:

There were obviously screwups in this situation.  Notwithstanding the fact that although very little weed was found in the house, that does not necessarily mean that the daddy wasn't a drug dealer, I am willing to operate under the assumption that he is innocent of that charge, and that the police got the wrong guy.

The areas of criticism are thus.

For the overall investigation:

A) Possible faulty intelligence/poor investigative work on the part of the investigators.  Maybe there wasn't really enough reasonable grounds to believe he was a distributor.  Maybe the investigators were sloppy, maybe they even misled the judge on the application for the warrant.  BUT, and this is important, as far as we know, we do not know any of that for sure.  So even though that is an area of possible criticism, it would be the height of arrogant and ignorant speculation to blindly rail on this point from the internet.

B) Fault of the judge.  Assuming that the police did not knowingly or unknowingly mislead the judge on the application, the judge deserves criticism for authorizing a warrant under insufficient evidence.  But of course, everyone always roasts the police and never gives the judge granting the warrant a first, let alone second, thought.

C) And this is the biggest, and most obvious:  Executing the godamned warrant when there were children in the house.  This should have been easy to establish.  A couple days' of staking out the house would have established the presence of children as they leave for school in the morning, etc.  Although there are a few scenarios I can foresee where this would have gone unnoticed (ie. maybe they were visiting the grandparents for a week, something like that), assuming the kids were at the house during the investigation, THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN NOTICED.  AND WHEN THAT IS THE CASE, THE FUCKING WARRANT SHOULD HAVE BEEN EXECUTED DURING THE DAY WHEN THEY WERE AT SCHOOL, NOT IN THE FUCKING EVENING WHEN THEY WERE GUARANTEED TO BE AT HOME.

THAT is where this police force needs to be roasted.  Not for shooting a fucking pitbull.  Not for executing a drug warrant with a SWAT team.  But for the gross negligence of deciding to execute the warrant at night instead of when the kids were at school.

D) maaaaaaybe the shooting of the dog.  But at worst, this deserves an apology, compensation to the family, and a slap on the wrist to the officers.  When executing a drug warrant, and encountering a fucking pit bull, it should be a no-brainer to be able to put yourself in the officer's shoes and see how he could perceive it as a threat.  Drug dealers often protect their stash houses with viscious dog.  This is ridiculously common knowledge in the law enforcement community.

Does that mean that you get to shoot any dog, automatically, when executing a drug warrant?  No, of course not.  Unfortunately, it does mean that it is all too easy to see how the officer could perceive it as a threat.  

Therefore, the shooting of the dog is an unfortunate tragedy.  It is not, however, "insanely excessive force."

Now, as for the actual use of a SWAT team to execute a drug search warrant.  This cannot possibly be criticized by any rational person.  I think I was quite emphatic on that point when taking on Green Shinobi.  If there is sufficient evidence to acquire a drug search warrant on a residence, there is sufficient reason to use a SWAT team, or to go in with a hard entry.  Period.

Specific knowledge that weapons are present is not required.  Period.  Officer safety and preparedness does not work that way.  You do not only prepare yourself for danger or violence when you have overwhelmning and specific evidence of weapons.  You prepare yourself for danger as much as is reasonable at all times.  And the fact is that the possible/likely presence of drugs makes the presence of weapons very likely.

In conclusion:  Maybe criticize the fact that the warrant was issued at all and the poor investigation leading up to it that that might represent.  Criticize the fact that the search was executed at night when the kids were present.
Criticizing the fact that a SWAT team was used for a drug warrant, and that a pitbull was shot as consequence?  Notsomuch.

But ya, Ichi, clearly I'm crazy biased and unwilling to criticize the actions of police.  ::)

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I also completed that rant without any "fuck you"s.  I think my self-restraint is getting better :lol j/k
[close]


The state responding to suspicion of victimless crime with needless violence and destruction of property.

Shock.

Gee, almost the exact same libertarian boilerplate language that GS used.

Shock.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 07, 2010, 07:50:51 PM

:lol what did they do a drive-by to clear it out?  The reality is that when a police officer does a drug bust and he sees a pit bull, he assumes it's a weapon.  It's not like they have the time to do a litmus test to see how temperamental the dog is.

I will say that we once did a search warrant that had a pitbull inside.  It was completely chill and happy to see us though.   Scared the shit out of the entry team though. :lol

That said, in that case, the 20-year old punk kid inside was surprised, and seemingly disappointed, that it didn't attack our officers though.


Hang it up, Ichi, when am nintenho gets it right and is the voice of reason, it's time to bow out.  :lol

Quote
The only possible thing that they could have tried to do better on this raid was trying to do it when the child wasn't home but it's likely that they didn't wan to risk losing their window and have the drugs moved out of the house (which is what obviously happened) or flushed.

Disagree with this justifying the timing though.  The safety of the public should FAAAAR exceed the successful prosecution of a drug case.  Knowingly putting those kids at risk is unjustifiable even in the face of those reasons.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 07, 2010, 07:55:18 PM

:lol what did they do a drive-by to clear it out?  The reality is that when a police officer does a drug bust and he sees a pit bull, he assumes it's a weapon.  It's not like they have the time to do a litmus test to see how temperamental the dog is.

I will say that we once did a search warrant that had a pitbull inside.  It was completely chill and happy to see us though.   Scared the shit out of the entry team though. :lol

That said, in that case, the 20-year old punk kid inside was surprised, and seemingly disappointed, that it didn't attack our officers though.


Hang it up, Ichi, when am nintenho gets it right and is the voice of reason, it's time to bow out.  :lol


More like, when you're in agreement with nintenho, you know you've finally blown a gasket. :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 07, 2010, 07:56:58 PM

More like, when you're in agreement with nintenho, you know you've finally blown a gasket. :lol

There's a post above that one.  You might have missed it.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 07, 2010, 07:57:37 PM
Yeah, I must've!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 07, 2010, 08:06:27 PM
You're buying the line just like the Police want you to.  Of course they're going to say that after this whole debacle.  What do you want them to say?  "We busted in armed and ready even though we didn't really have any evidence to suggest this guy was armed."


Irrelevant.  As I said, no specific evidence needed to go in hard when drugs are involved.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's going to get turned into a sex joke, isn't it?
[close]


Maybe Boogie can provide insight as to what the procedure is when a 7 year old kid is in the house and they serve a warrant like this. This is my problem with the story...and the shooting.

Hey, that's pretty good, since that's the exact same thing I zeroed in on. ;)
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 07, 2010, 08:11:05 PM
Why was there even a SWAT team?  This is Columbia, Missouri, not Los Angeles.  If he even was a drug dealer, it's obvious he isn't some violent multi-national kingpin, it's just a guy living in a small, quiet college town selling some dope.  If you want to arrest the guy, do you really need a paramilitary force?  Why not just knock on the door and say, "Hey, buddy, you're arrested.  My partner is at the back door so don't try running"?

The size of the community does not determine the potential for violence of drug dealers.

As for the proliferation of SWAT teams.  Since the 70s, over the past 30 years, the death rates of officers killed in the line of duty has declined as SWAT teams, more tactical equipment and training has proliferated.  I know correlation != causation, I'm just sayin'

As for the "arms race", the idea could also be that as drug dealers become more violent, police need more SWAT training and equipment to counter that.  It doesn't necessarily mean it's a dick-measuring contest.

Quote
  Since they have the gear and the training, they feel like they should get to use it.  Why not on this guy?  They're just small-town cops who want to feel like movie stars.

This could be a valid concern though.  It could very well be a case of "when you have a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail".  Or it could be a response to a legitimate need of the force.  More info and study would be required.

anyhow, I'm out.  if this keeps going, I'll be back in a few days.  :)
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: huckleberry on May 07, 2010, 08:31:44 PM
Quote
Hey, that's pretty good, since that's the exact same thing I zeroed in on.


 :-*

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Boogie winked at me!   :omg
[close]
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 08, 2010, 01:31:33 AM
FYI, the Columbia, MO metropolitan area is home to over 160,000 people and large scale marijuana operations are not uncommon to the area (http://www.kmiz.com/news/story.php?id=13703&author=Jacqueline%20Lapine&category=Crime&franchise=Crime%20Alerts&county=Boone&city=Columbia&partner=).

Saying that it is some podunk town with no need to enforce drug laws is obviously a little unfounded.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 08, 2010, 02:20:34 AM
Who said there was no need to enforce drug laws?  Just because it says Green Shinobi's name in the topic header doesn't mean he's actually posting ITT. :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: T234 on May 08, 2010, 08:14:01 AM
I just do not see how A PLANT that can make me go from "ready and capable to commit murder" rage to complete relaxation is illegal.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 08, 2010, 08:15:02 AM
And yet it is, to no one's tears...
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Barry Egan on May 08, 2010, 09:09:19 AM
Pretty sure the dude with the dead dog had some tears
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 08, 2010, 09:13:18 AM
I just do not see how A PLANT that can make me go from "ready and capable to commit murder" rage to complete relaxation is illegal.

This should be a question posed to policy makers, not law enforcement. If you don't like the law, then call your state and federal representatives. It's why some states have decriminalization and medicinal marijuana. I'm not going to wag my fingers at SWAT trying to take down major distributors, though.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 08, 2010, 09:18:18 AM
This guy is The Bore:

[youtube=560,345]qA2zxM7jL7s[/youtube]
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 08, 2010, 09:51:59 AM
Tellin' the truth about cops.  That's just the Evilbore way.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: chronovore on May 08, 2010, 12:36:11 PM
This guy is The Bore:

[youtube=560,345]qA2zxM7jL7s[/youtube]
Actually, that's how most of the bore dreams about talking to cops, but in reality, it's the same as for the rest of humanity:

"Yes, officer."
"No, officer."
"Thank you for the ticket, officer."
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: lennedsay on May 08, 2010, 03:25:48 PM
"Does it feel good when I stroke your balls, too, officer?"
"Yes you can insert the ticket between my buttcheeks if you want, officer.... Yes that is an anal fissure, officer....  :'( "


I twirl my hair, stick out my tits, and haven't had a ticket in years.  8)
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 08, 2010, 03:32:38 PM
I've been stopped a few times and each time I've been as nice and polite and humanly possible. Even in cases where the cop was being a complete asshole.

Most recent encounter was when I was heading to the bank to do a drop for my dad's practice; I had a bunch of checks/money in a zip up bag on the passenger seat when I got pulled over. I wasn't speeding, tail lights weren't off etc. I was simply driving my dad's PT Cruiser, and I didn't even have the top down. He asked what was in the bag, I showed him/told him where I was going/showed registration/etc. He wasn't acting like an ass, although I was annoyed that I got pulled over for no justifiable reason.

Most cops just do their job. If you let them do it, you'll be fine. If you fuck around with them, you get in trouble. Those aren't hard rules to live by
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: etiolate on May 08, 2010, 06:51:11 PM
Only had one asshole cop. Most of my police interactions have been fine.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 08, 2010, 07:21:49 PM
I've been stopped a few times and each time I've been as nice and polite and humanly possible. Even in cases where the cop was being a complete asshole.

Most recent encounter was when I was heading to the bank to do a drop for my dad's practice; I had a bunch of checks/money in a zip up bag on the passenger seat when I got pulled over. I wasn't speeding, tail lights weren't off etc. I was simply driving my dad's PT Cruiser, and I didn't even have the top down. He asked what was in the bag, I showed him/told him where I was going/showed registration/etc. He wasn't acting like an ass, although I was annoyed that I got pulled over for no justifiable reason.

Most cops just do their job. If you let them do it, you'll be fine. If you fuck around with them, you get in trouble. Those aren't hard rules to live by

Most cops are assholes on a power trip.  I try to be nice to them because I know they can and will abuse their power at the slightest provocation.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: brawndolicious on May 08, 2010, 07:43:46 PM
How have cops been assholes to you?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 08, 2010, 08:26:04 PM
How have cops been assholes to you?

You edited out your previous post, but not before Boogie quoted it.  You're a cop too, aren't you?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 01:24:53 AM
How have cops been assholes to you?

They haven't.  He's just being an ass and trying to get a rise out of me.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 03:55:28 AM
I hate cops for the same reason foreigners hate the US military. 

They've bombed your house and raped and murdered your wife and children?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Himu on May 09, 2010, 04:03:06 AM
Why was there even a SWAT team?  This is Columbia, Missouri, not Los Angeles.  If he even was a drug dealer, it's obvious he isn't some violent multi-national kingpin, it's just a guy living in a small, quiet college town selling some dope.  If you want to arrest the guy, do you really need a paramilitary force?  Why not just knock on the door and say, "Hey, buddy, you're arrested.  My partner is at the back door so don't try running"?

The reason they did it at night and they shot the dog is because they are a small town with no need of a SWAT team that has one.  Since they have the gear and the training, they feel like they should get to use it.  Why not on this guy?  They're just small-town cops who want to feel like movie stars.

Correct assessment.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Himu on May 09, 2010, 04:08:26 AM
I've been stopped a few times and each time I've been as nice and polite and humanly possible. Even in cases where the cop was being a complete asshole.

Most recent encounter was when I was heading to the bank to do a drop for my dad's practice; I had a bunch of checks/money in a zip up bag on the passenger seat when I got pulled over. I wasn't speeding, tail lights weren't off etc. I was simply driving my dad's PT Cruiser, and I didn't even have the top down. He asked what was in the bag, I showed him/told him where I was going/showed registration/etc. He wasn't acting like an ass, although I was annoyed that I got pulled over for no justifiable reason.

Most cops just do their job. If you let them do it, you'll be fine. If you fuck around with them, you get in trouble. Those aren't hard rules to live by

One time I was pulled over because the cop wanted to remind me I have a crack in my car window. Thanks for the reminder, dick!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Mupepe on May 09, 2010, 01:53:23 PM
I've been stopped a few times and each time I've been as nice and polite and humanly possible. Even in cases where the cop was being a complete asshole.

Most recent encounter was when I was heading to the bank to do a drop for my dad's practice; I had a bunch of checks/money in a zip up bag on the passenger seat when I got pulled over. I wasn't speeding, tail lights weren't off etc. I was simply driving my dad's PT Cruiser, and I didn't even have the top down. He asked what was in the bag, I showed him/told him where I was going/showed registration/etc. He wasn't acting like an ass, although I was annoyed that I got pulled over for no justifiable reason.

Most cops just do their job. If you let them do it, you'll be fine. If you fuck around with them, you get in trouble. Those aren't hard rules to live by

One time I was pulled over because the cop wanted to remind me I have a crack in my car window. Thanks for the reminder, dick!

He could have actually been a bigger dick and written you a ticket.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 09, 2010, 01:54:27 PM
Himuro actually pulled over ???
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 08:53:47 PM
I've been stopped a few times and each time I've been as nice and polite and humanly possible. Even in cases where the cop was being a complete asshole.

Most recent encounter was when I was heading to the bank to do a drop for my dad's practice; I had a bunch of checks/money in a zip up bag on the passenger seat when I got pulled over. I wasn't speeding, tail lights weren't off etc. I was simply driving my dad's PT Cruiser, and I didn't even have the top down. He asked what was in the bag, I showed him/told him where I was going/showed registration/etc. He wasn't acting like an ass, although I was annoyed that I got pulled over for no justifiable reason.

Most cops just do their job. If you let them do it, you'll be fine. If you fuck around with them, you get in trouble. Those aren't hard rules to live by

One time I was pulled over because the cop wanted to remind me I have a crack in my car window. Thanks for the reminder, dick!

Ya, how dare he use his legally-granted authority to pull you over in order to check the road-worthiness and safety of your vehicle!  And then to let you go without any further consequences other than inconveniencing you out of a few minutes of your time!  That asshole :maf
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 09, 2010, 08:56:31 PM
You can't defend the cops who pulled me over so I win :bow
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 09:03:26 PM
Defend these cops next, Boogie. :bow

http://www.kirotv.com/news/23479966/detail.html

Seattle Cops Stomp On Detainee

SEATTLE -- Internal affairs detectives have launched a review after seeing a racially charged videotape of two Seattle police officers stomping on an innocent detainee.

KIRO Team 7 Investigative Reporter Chris Halsne received the footage from a freelance photographer.

Before the camera rolled, here was the scenario, gleaned from redacted public records provided by SPD:

WATCH IT: Officer Threatens, Kicks Detainee


On April 17, Seattle police responded to several 911 calls near the China Harbor Restaurant on the west side of Lake Union. Patrons of a nightclub complained of an armed robbery occurring in the parking lot. They told dispatchers the suspects were Hispanic.

About eight blocks away, a pair of guys who appeared to be Hispanic were strolling along the boardwalk when Seattle police officers saw them.


The videotape shows it's about 2 a.m. At least six squad cars full of Seattle police are trying to sort out suspects about a half-mile from a robbery scene.

Three men are being detained, but two of them appear to have nothing to do with the alleged crime.

A member of the SPD gang unit can be seen, down on his knees, yelling at a young man lying face down on the ground. It was unclear what he was saying until the camera moved a little closer.

The audio then became much clearer. The camera microphone picked up the following threat from the officer to the detainee:

"You got me? I'm going to beat the f***ing Mexican piss out of you homey. You feel me?"


About 16 seconds after the officer threatens to "beat the f-ing Mexican piss out of you homey," the uncuffed young man moves his hand to wipe his eye. The officer immediately gives him a violent kick to the head.

Looking at it again closely, it's possible the officer was trying to stomp on the suspect's hand and instead skipped the toe of his boot off the guy's head.

Either way, a recognized expert on policy brutality, who watched the footage, says it should never have happened.

"I suppose I could speculate on some excuse, but looking at the actual facts as recorded in the video, which is always the best evidence, I just don't see any excuse," former Bellevue police chief Don Van Blaricom told Halsne.

Van Blaricom has testified as a police practices expert in more than 1,500 cases nationwide.

"Well, there's absolutely no excuse for stomping on somebody's head who's lying on a concrete surface. Absolutely no excuse for that whatsoever," Van Blaricom said.

The videotape also shows that about 12 seconds after the gang unit officer did his stomping, a female officer walked over to do some stomping of her own; this time onto the back of the knee or calf of the same guy lying face down on the sidewalk.

Once the officers realized they had the wrong guy, they helped him up, brushed him off, and let him go with a serious case of road rash from the concrete.

He seemed a little dazed when the freelance photographer spoke with him afterwards.

Q: "So they kicked you in the head, man?"
A: "Yeah, they did."
Q: "Tell me why they kicked you in the head?"
A: "I don’t know. They knocked me down and kicked me in the head."
Q: "You had nothing to do with what was going on?"
A: "Nothing to do."



While watching the videotape, Van Blaricom noticed the young man wasn't steady on his feet after getting up from the blow to the head. Audio tape confirms that the gang unit officers knew that, yet medical aid isn't apparent on the scene.

The Seattle police officer says to the now-released detainee, "I want you to relax your weight on the car, OK? All right. Put your hands back so you don't fall down. All right?"

Van Blairicom listened to that same officer's earlier comment ("I'm going to beat the f***ing Mexican piss out of you homey. You feel me?") and tells KIRO Team 7 Investigators his use of a racist comment is not only offensive, but could put the whole department in a bad light.

Van Blaricom adds, "If you add racial overtones to a police contact with a suspect, particularly with one that turns out to be totally innocent, that doesn't do anybody any favors. It's insulting to the individual who's called a racial epithet. It's insulting to that community or that culture and people react against it."

The Seattle Police Department today released a three sentence statement, essentially saying it's "aware of possible officer misconduct" and an internal review is under way.

Your brothers in blue :bow
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 09, 2010, 09:18:35 PM
What the fuck does that have to do with Boogie? What's your problem?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 09:21:13 PM
What's yours?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: brob on May 09, 2010, 09:26:45 PM
meh, I don't bother cops and they don't bother me.

They are also terribly low on resources and forced by political bullshit to waste man power away on "visible prostitution" and other bullshit stings while the police chief is making statements in newspapers discouraging women from walking home alone from a night on the town or taking a taxi alone.  :maf
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: huckleberry on May 09, 2010, 09:30:18 PM
It shouldn't be Boogie's job to come up with a rebuttal every time some cop does a douche bag thing.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 09:31:03 PM
It shouldn't be Boogie's job to come up with a rebuttal every time some cop does a douche bag thing.

And yet he's taken on that task both here and on GAF, with visible zeal and pleasure. :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: huckleberry on May 09, 2010, 09:33:47 PM
I watched the video you posted Ichi.  That is some fucked up shit.... cop is gonna lose his job and then some.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 09, 2010, 09:36:47 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't and wins whatever court case he gets pulled into
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 09:38:44 PM
Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times for absolutely no reason and the officers that did it got acquitted.  I highly doubt the guy in the video is going to experience any repercussions for what he did.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: huckleberry on May 09, 2010, 09:40:25 PM


No way that cop doesn't get his shit busted for that, not with it being on tape and blatantly bigoted as it is.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 09, 2010, 09:41:17 PM
I don't think Boogie has ever said asshole cops don't exist. There are assholes in every profession!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 09, 2010, 09:42:41 PM
except script writers :smug

:garywhitta
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 09, 2010, 09:50:43 PM
Unfortunately police are state-supported and attract assholes.  It's not like you can just shop elsewhere.  

I disagree with that sentiment. By the way, didn't someone say almost the exact same thing about the military? :wag
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 09:54:52 PM
It shouldn't be Boogie's job to come up with a rebuttal every time some cop does a douche bag thing.

And yet he's taken on that task both here and on GAF, with visible zeal and pleasure. :lol

Dude, shut the fuck up.  You impugned my character ("You've defended far-out insane cases of police brutality before"), then you just ignore a post calling you on it and that explains and articulates my position, preferring instead to post inane and vapid one-liners afterwards.

You say "Defend these cops next, Boogie. :bow", as if it's all a fucking game, like when I put on the "POLICE" jersey I'm obligated to defend every fucking police action like it's politics and I'm some slack-jawed Republican who must protect everything done by anyone affiliated with my party.


And you say that, in the face of the previous page, where I clearly lay out the case for rationally roasting the actions of police.  You won't see me "defend those cops" because they don't deserve to be defended, as that incident is quite clear excessive force, with racial slurs on top of it to boot.

So either man up and argue, debate, and discuss intelligently, or shut the fuck up you vacuous twat.

as for "taking up that task", the fact is, if I don't, no one will.  See any other police officers willing to take the time to engage in protracted discussion about police procedures, guidelines, and actions? And I'm not going to concede the debate to those who argue out of ignorance.  I'm just trying to explain why police do the things we do, and why it may be justified, even if it doesn't appear obvious to the layman.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 09, 2010, 09:57:07 PM
I think they both attract assholes because of the relatively easily obtained power they give people.  The difference is the US Army doesn't patrol my neighborhood streets. 

So you concede that we maintain a sizable army to further our imperialistic goals; one that might even have more freedom to impose the kind of asshole-driven agendas that law enforcement officers concoct... but just on everyone else?

:smug
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: The Fake Shemp on May 09, 2010, 10:00:25 PM
Or maybe both the military and law enforcement employ men and women who swear to uphold the law and serve our country, and do so without incident, but as in any profession, have people that abuse power and/or privileges.

And maybe, just maybe, that stings a little bit more because they are in positions of authority and not because all of them are assholes.

Just a thought.

I prefer your gross generalization, though.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 09, 2010, 10:12:34 PM
Everyone's got a few stories about how cops did something to them, pulled them over for nothing or gave them a ticket for something they didn't do. Things like that. But what about the hundreds, if not thousands, of times that that same person passed a cop car on the street and NOTHING HAPPENED?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 10:51:04 PM
It shouldn't be Boogie's job to come up with a rebuttal every time some cop does a douche bag thing.

And yet he's taken on that task both here and on GAF, with visible zeal and pleasure. :lol

Dude, shut the fuck up.  You impugned my character ("You've defended far-out insane cases of police brutality before"), then you just ignore a post calling you on it and that explains and articulates my position, preferring instead to post inane and vapid one-liners afterwards.

You say "Defend these cops next, Boogie. :bow", as if it's all a fucking game, like when I put on the "POLICE" jersey I'm obligated to defend every fucking police action like it's politics and I'm some slack-jawed Republican who must protect everything done by anyone affiliated with my party.


And you say that, in the face of the previous page, where I clearly lay out the case for rationally roasting the actions of police.  You won't see me "defend those cops" because they don't deserve to be defended, as that incident is quite clear excessive force, with racial slurs on top of it to boot.

So either man up and argue, debate, and discuss intelligently, or shut the fuck up you vacuous twat.

as for "taking up that task", the fact is, if I don't, no one will.  See any other police officers willing to take the time to engage in protracted discussion about police procedures, guidelines, and actions? And I'm not going to concede the debate to those who argue out of ignorance.  I'm just trying to explain why police do the things we do, and why it may be justified, even if it doesn't appear obvious to the layman.

Boogie 'roiding again. :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 10:54:51 PM

Boogie 'roiding again. :lol

Yeah, but this time:

A) I'm sober
B) There's not going to be an apology
and
C) You're the one being an annoying ass.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 10:58:00 PM
You act like this isn't some fucking GAME, like when I put on a jacket that says EVILBORE POSTER I'm obligated to take the Internets seriously like I'm some slack-jawed nerdlinger who must post paragraphs of copious bullshit just so people will respect mah authoritah.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:02:55 PM
You act like this isn't some fucking GAME, like when I put on a jacket that says EVILBORE POSTER I'm obligated to take the Internets seriously like I'm some slack-jawed nerdlinger who must post paragraphs of copious bullshit just so people will respect mah authoritah.

You know what the worst part about you as a poster is, Ichi?

It's that you think you're actually funny.

you can get away with contributing fuck all to the discussion on a board if you're actually funny. 
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:03:57 PM
You know what the worst part about you as a poster is, Boogie?

That you actually seem to think I care what you think about me.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Actually, there's worse things about you, such as the fact that you've taken up the mantle of Evilbore's Police Force, cracking down on anybody who doesn't meet your approval as a worthwhile poster.
[close]
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:04:43 PM
You know what the worst part about you as a poster is, Boogie?

That you actually seem to think I care what you think about me.

But I don't.  ???
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:09:16 PM
(http://www.dive-shield.us/images/indexpage/RoidRage.jpg)
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: tehjaybo on May 09, 2010, 11:10:09 PM
Jesus, isn't there something in the TOS about trolling?  Seriously.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:11:36 PM
Jesus, isn't there something in the TOS about trolling?  Seriously.

If it were enforced, half the icons would be permabanned.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: tehjaybo on May 09, 2010, 11:15:03 PM
This is why I don't post as much.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:15:59 PM
Just three more posts till you can add your own tag, though!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:16:35 PM
Jesus, isn't there something in the TOS about trolling?  Seriously.

If it were enforced, half the icons would be permabanned.

Pop quiz:

In this thread, one poster has attempted to have an honest, intelligent discussion.  is that poster

A)  Boogie
or
B)  Ichirou

Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:18:13 PM
Yes, because this thread is a perfect example of exactly how you always post...when you're sober!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Cormacaroni on May 09, 2010, 11:19:30 PM
give it a rest, Ichi
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: tehjaybo on May 09, 2010, 11:19:44 PM
A).  

Cmonnn Senior Member.  


I despise trolling.  It pisses me off, which I know is the point, but I feel like there would be more quality posts if every other post wasn't a blatant trolling attempt.  It's really annoying.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:21:02 PM
Yes, because this thread is a perfect example of exactly how you always post...when you're sober!

Look, I don't blame you. I know it can be a tremendous strain to type more than one line and three sentences at a time.  Especially when you're expected to utilize reading comprehension and critical thinking skills at the same time.  Some people just aren't up to that.  It's no shame to admit it.  That's why jobs such as being an English-speaking prop for Korean or Japanese schoolchildren exist.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:21:10 PM
Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, Boogie's jurisdiction doesn't extend to patrolling Internet forums for posts he deems "annoying."
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:30:27 PM
heyy, missed a spoiler edit


spoiler (click to show/hide)
Actually, there's worse things about you, such as the fact that you've taken up the mantle of Evilbore's Police Force, cracking down on anybody who doesn't meet your approval as a worthwhile poster.
[close]

Oh?  I wasn't aware that challenging you on a point on the topic of the godamned thread constituted "cracking down on anybody who doesn't meet my approval as a worthwhile poster".

If you actually had the capability of discussing the subject, you'd be doing so, rather than throwing out these irrelevant tangents.

Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:35:26 PM
Irrelevant tangents such as recycling old Green Shinobi trolls to imply that anyone who has my type of job must have low intelligence (hey, indirectly hitting the half-dozen other folks in the forum who have the same job as me)?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:41:56 PM
Irrelevant tangents such as recycling old Green Shinobi trolls to imply that anyone who has my type of job must have low intelligence (hey, indirectly hitting the half-dozen other folks in the forum who have the same job as me)?

Recycling Green Shinobi trolls?

No, you see, Green Shinobi actually debated with me on the topic at hand.  He embarrassed himself, but he put in the effort.

You, on the other hand?  Well, I think this thread speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:42:27 PM
Doesn't English teaching in Asia require a degree, unlike the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?  :teehee

I actually have a Master of Arts, unlike Boogie. 8)
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:42:29 PM
Doesn't English teaching in Asia require a degree, unlike the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?  :teehee

Well played, sir, well played.

Doesn't English teaching in Asia require a degree, unlike the Royal Canadian Mounted Police?  :teehee

I actually have a Master of Arts, unlike Boogie. 8)

And you're clearly putting it to good use.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:44:15 PM
Yes, I'm not wasting it debating issues with some cop on the internet, for example!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 09, 2010, 11:46:50 PM
Yes, I'm not wasting it debating issues with some cop on the internet, for example!

No, clearly.

Instead you're wasting it by posting endlessly in a thread while avoiding debating issues on the internet.  Clearly the choice of a superior intellect.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 09, 2010, 11:48:58 PM
Yes, I'm not wasting it debating issues with some cop on the internet, for example!

No, clearly.

Instead you're wasting it by posting endlessly in a thread while avoiding debating issues on the internet.  Clearly the superior choice.

I'm somehow getting you to reply to every single one of my inane posts.  I'm just trying to see how long I can keep this going - you're not all that different from Green Shinobi when it comes down to it!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 10, 2010, 12:07:41 AM
Yet another thread brutally destroyed at Ichirou's uncaring hands. When will this madness end? :'(
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 10, 2010, 12:09:36 AM
I think it should be in the TOS that everyone should declare whether or not they're being serious about their arguments in a thread, or just being facetious, especially since clearly some are harder to read than others.

This would stop people from wasting their time trying to have an actual discussion about the subject matter. I've been there a few times, and poor boogie just wrote a two-page argument for nothing.

And no, I'm not white knighting; Boogie doesn't need one ::)

The thread title is "Green Shinobi vindicated"; how is that in itself not enough of a clue?
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Barry Egan on May 10, 2010, 12:16:00 AM
you're not all that different from Green Shinobi when it comes down to it!

lol.  Not even close.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Don Flamenco on May 10, 2010, 12:17:09 AM
I think it should be in the TOS that everyone should declare whether or not they're being serious about their arguments in a thread, or just being facetious, especially since clearly some are harder to read than others.

i am always face-tits or whatever
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 10, 2010, 12:18:04 AM
I think it should be in the TOS that everyone should declare whether or not they're being serious about their arguments in a thread, or just being facetious, especially since clearly some are harder to read than others.

i am always face-tits or whatever

Not to mention that such a change would destroy demi (every single post of his I read not knowing if he's being serious or not) and Willco (Jay Leno, Republican party, etc.).
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 10, 2010, 01:21:49 AM
At some point Boogie, you have to
[youtube=560,345]VUzUMJIty4M[/youtube]

Some people don't like cops and use every negative cop story to reinforce that opinion. Arguing with them from your authoritative position as a police officer is the last thing that's going to change their mind. No shots but it sometimes seems like you are obsessed with these internet scuffles and angered when people think they can possibly hold a position you disagree with; not the ridiculous opinions, but like when someone is making a "serious" argument you happen to disagree with. Lets chill dawgs

Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 10, 2010, 02:24:16 AM
Some people don't like cops and use every negative cop story to reinforce that opinion. Arguing with them from your authoritative position as a police officer is the last thing that's going to change their mind. No shots but it sometimes seems like you are obsessed with these internet scuffles and angered when people think they can possibly hold a position you disagree with; not the ridiculous opinions, but like when someone is making a "serious" argument you happen to disagree with. Lets chill dawgs



Nailed it.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 10, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
G'day, Jinfash.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 10, 2010, 10:22:03 AM
To be honest I'm growing sick of the "chill, don't take it seriously, this is just the internet" retort. I don't know about other members but I don't want ALL discussions to be reduced to one-liners and brain farts. I thought the whole point of posting real life news is to discuss these issues seriously and maturely, regardless of stupid thread titles.

Also, I don't know how any of you find this situation hard to understand, it's been explained several times; when there's a bunch of people talking out of their asses about a certain subject while there's expert on that matter around, you can't possibly fault him for offering passionate arguments, can you? especially if the counter arguments are extremely ignorant from his perspective.

The exact same thing would happen if there was a doctor, a financial advisor, or a political pundit on this board.

I really hate preaching or state the obvious, I promised I'd stop doing it, but whatever. G'day.

Oh, Jinfash, you're so naive. This is THE INTERNET! We don't have serious, intellectually stimulating discussion here, we're all in it for cheap lulz and feelings of superiority!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 10, 2010, 10:27:42 AM
I would take Jinfash's post more seriously except I know that if the shoe were on the other foot, he would reverse his position immediately and tell us all to "lighten up."  Dude is the very definition of "suckup." :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 10, 2010, 10:38:47 AM
I would take Jinfash's post more seriously except I know that if the shoe were on the other foot, he would reverse his position immediately and tell us all to "lighten up."  Dude is the very definition of "suckup." :lol

And thusly my point is proven! Gotta get with the times, Jin.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 10, 2010, 10:42:01 AM
I would take Jinfash's post more seriously except I know that if the shoe were on the other foot, he would reverse his position immediately and tell us all to "lighten up."  Dude is the very definition of "suckup." :lol

And thusly my point is proven! Gotta get with the times, Jin.

High five, bro!
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: AdmiralViscen on May 10, 2010, 10:45:04 AM
Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, Boogie's jurisdiction doesn't extend to patrolling Internet forums for posts he deems "annoying."

Yea, if this topic proves anything, it's that Boogie has something he can't let go of.

Ichi got put down by Boogie and Jinfash. It's funny to see the shift in Ichi's tone before and after Boogie's epic post on page 2. He goes from arguing with Willco about the premise of a statement to full-on court jester.

Wait a second, Ichi didn't even make this thread :lol . The way he's talking, you'd think he set this all up as joketime. This thread is 2 pages of serious debate with some jokes thrown in followed by 2 pages of threadshitting.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Ichirou on May 10, 2010, 10:49:33 AM
Yeah, the first two pages of the thread were serious debate. :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Reb on May 10, 2010, 11:24:26 AM
Ichi should be fined 200 dollars for his posts.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Great Rumbler on May 10, 2010, 11:42:41 AM
Ichi should be fined 200 dollars for his posts.

And that $200 should go to charity so we can all download those seven indie games.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 10, 2010, 01:36:13 PM
Coming from you Jinfash...nah. You've pulled the "guys chill" card more than anyone. And I love you for it, because sometimes people need to chill out.

No matter what Boogie says, someone is going to disagree. This is the internet. My point is that at some point responding to EVERY vapid comment makes you look as obsessed as the other person. If I was a dentist and Hans was here arguing fluoride is poisoning people and is a massive conspiracy, at some point I'd laugh him off and move the fuck on. Arguing with someone like that for two pages is dumb, and suggests just the obsession with authority and control someone who doesn't like police would use to justify their position.
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on May 10, 2010, 04:42:58 PM

Anyhow I think it's pointless to continue my lecture/derailment. Toodles :-*

sounds like you're about to...chill out  :teehee
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: T234 on May 10, 2010, 07:41:21 PM
At some point Boogie, you have to
[youtube=560,345]VUzUMJIty4M[/youtube]

Some people don't like cops and use every negative cop story to reinforce that opinion. Arguing with them from your authoritative position as a police officer is the last thing that's going to change their mind. No shots but it sometimes seems like you are obsessed with these internet scuffles and angered when people think they can possibly hold a position you disagree with; not the ridiculous opinions, but like when someone is making a "serious" argument you happen to disagree with. Lets chill dawgs



I do believe that that is the crunchiest track I have heard in a hot minute.

PD, check this out (skip to :20 unless you wanna hear John Mayer talk, and this video has one of the baddest solos you will EVER see):
[youtube=560,345]h53va2AIuYU[/youtube]


Also, I must say I come across alot of cops while working at the porn store, and most of them are easygoing as long as you show them respect.

Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: Boogie on May 10, 2010, 08:13:26 PM

No matter what Boogie says, someone is going to disagree. This is the internet. My point is that at some point responding to EVERY vapid comment makes you look as obsessed as the other person.

That's not true!  There were....*goes back and counts* SEVEN vapid posts in a row in the middle of the thread that I didn't respond to!  :lol
Title: Re: Green Shinobi vindicated.
Post by: chronovore on May 11, 2010, 08:53:21 AM
C'mon, admit it: you were counting all along.
spoiler (click to show/hide)
I keed. I keed. I keed because I looooove.
[close]
spoiler (click to show/hide)
Mount me, mountie.  :-*
[close]