pics or it didn't happen
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(http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/110302/a-dance-with-dragons_240.jpg)
:o
Martin has said ADWD will detail events of the north that happened during the AFFC timeline, but it will also lap over by several months
The book will contain the following POV characters:
Daenerys Targaryen
Jon Snow
Tyrion Lannister
Davos Seaworth
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Asha Greyjoy, aka 'The Wayward Bride'
Theon Greyjoy, aka 'Reek'
Quentyn Martell, aka 'The Merchant's Man'
Melisandre of Asshai
Varamyr Sixskins (prologue POV)
An as-yet unidentified new POV
An as-yet unidentified epilogue POV
Cersei Lannister and an as-yet unknown number of other Feast for Crows POV characters appearing in the second half of the book.
A Dance with Dragons takes place simultaneously alongside the events of A Feast for Crows, with ADWD focusing on the North, the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay. The timespan of ADWD will be several months longer than that of AFFC, with the first half of the book (currently 800 manuscript pages) running alongside AFFC and the last half extending beyond its timespan. According to GRRM, working out the continuity issues on ADWD has been extremely complex and time-consuming.
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/5960-a-dance-with-dragons-the-latest-info-inc-pub-date/
So no worries, we'll definitely get some insight into the final events in AFFC, most notably (imo)
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-Loras Tyrell's condition; is he truly injured, or did he fake his injury to head towards Highgarden
-Cersei's trial
-Mace Tyrell marching toward King's Landing
-where's Bryden Tully going?
Only bad thing: no Sansa POV. Definitely want to know more about Littlefinger's master plan. Oh and no Arya apparently :(
Finished A Clash of Kings. Kind of dragged in the middle. Didn't like spoiler (click to show/hide)
the Bran/Rickon fakeout. Too many characters died just to kind of clean house. The end was good!
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I loved the Bran/Rickon reveal, Theon was a fucking piece of shit asshole but I don't think he would have beheaded two kids he knew since they were babies just because they made him chase them for a day he just though that they were gone and he couldn't go back empty handed to winterfell so he came up with that brutal plan, there was a big clue that it wasn't them, the maester ask Theon to let him bury the kids next to their father and Theon denies him, he either didn't want non Starks buried in the grave of the winter kings or didn't want the maester to spend to much time with "Bran's" body.
Book 2 spoilers:
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I loved the Bran/Rickon reveal, Theon was a fucking piece of shit asshole but I don't think he would have beheaded two kids he knew since they were babies just because they made him chase them for a day he just though that they were gone and he couldn't go back empty handed to winterfell so he came up with that brutal plan, there was a big clue that it wasn't them, the maester ask Theon to let him bury the kids next to their father and Theon denies him, he either didn't want non Starks buried in the grave of the winter kings or didn't want the maester to spend to much time with "Bran's" body.
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I liked that the way you found was via raven, the same time as everyone else. That was a neat narrative trick. But the book is sod eadly serious about it's myriad deaths that to have it be like TWO MORE OF YOUR FAVORITES ARE DEAD and then go LOL NAH was kind of lame. I also think I missed the wink and nod that it WASN'T Bran and Rickon, so.
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I missed the nod too, but in hindsight it's pretty obvious. Reek spells it out
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In the aftermath of a colossal battle, the future of the Seven Kingdoms hangs in the balance—beset by newly emerging threats from every direction. In the east, Daenerys Targaryen, the last scion of House Targaryen, rules with her three dragons as queen of a city built on dust and death. But Daenerys has thousands of enemies, and many have set out to find her. As they gather, one young man embarks upon his own quest for the queen, with an entirely different goal in mind.
Fleeing from Westeros with a price on his head, Tyrion Lannister, too, is making his way to Daenerys. But his newest allies in this quest are not the rag-tag band they seem, and at their heart lies one who could undo Daenerys’s claim to Westeros forever.
Meanwhile, to the north lies the mammoth Wall of ice and stone—a structure only as strong as those guarding it. There, Jon Snow, 998th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, will face his greatest challenge. For he has powerful foes not only within the Watch but also beyond, in the land of the creatures of ice.
From all corners, bitter conflicts reignite, intimate betrayals are perpetrated, and a grand cast of outlaws and priests, soldiers and skinchangers, nobles and slaves, will face seemingly insurmountable obstacles. Some will fail, others will grow in the strength of darkness. But in a time of rising restlessness, the tides of destiny and politics will lead inevitably to the greatest dance of all.
Also for those who want to catch up without re-reading the novels, this site is quite helpful. It features chapter summaries for all the books; you could briefly look over the final chapters of ASOS and AFFC for instance, just to tune up on the cliff hangers.
http://towerofthehand.com/books/guide.html
I just finished my re-read of AFFC, which is underrated. Older fans of the novels were clearly dismayed at the lack of continuation from ASOS's titanic events, which blurred views on the next book. AFFC doesn't have much action, but it separates itself from the previous books in prose: it's often poetic, and overall features the best writing of the series. Reviews suggest ADWD continues this pattern, as historical exposition gives way to more stirring descriptions and dialogue.
400 or so pages in...
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And GOOD FUCKING GRIEF has Martin turned Daenerys into the most unsympathetic fucking character OF ALL TIME EVER. "Oh teh noes, I know for a fact that I'm supposed to go to Westeros and conquer the fuck out of it with my bad ass dragons, but LET ME SIT HERE IN THIS SHITTY CITY THAT WANTS ME DEAD AND TRY TO RULE IT BUT FAIL EVERYTIME. Also, let me get the vapors about one of my dragons eating some dumb kid." wtf, she used to be one of the best characters and is now a dithering, stupid cow. Grow some sack, take your dragons and burinate the shit out of all your enemies, you fucking pussy.
Also getting stupid is Jon Snow. You can tell Martin is setting him up for some sort of fall or betrayal or some shit later on in the book- he's sent all of his potential allies away other than the always amusing Dolorous Edd. HURP A DURP I SPOSE I'LL SEND ALL MY FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS AWAY. Although good on him for cutting Slynt's head off.
As ever, Tyrion remains the highlight of the books, although going to the whorehouse was spectacularly stupid on his part but whatever. Also intriguing have been the introduction of Aegon to the mix, and Davos' chapters are actually not so bad so far. Still, I'm not as impressed with it as most people but whatever.
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Quentin
The Daenerys chapters are awful, awful, awful. I'm hating her chapters more here than I did in past books. Though some of the other point of views have been hit with overly descriptive lore (like Davos). I think the world building in Tyrion's chapters have felt better than the rest.
I'm around page 350.
The Bran chapters are interesting but there's only like 3 of them? compared to like 20 Dany chapters, each one more terrible than the last. I swear I've never wanted to yell at a fictional character more. "YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE CONQUERING PEOPLE WITH YOUR DRAGONS, NOT TRYING TO SOOTHE EVERYONE'S FUCKING FEELINGS YOU DUMB FUCKING COW UGH"
Oh, forgot to say that I really liked the spoiler (click to show/hide)
Theon/Reek stuff
Just finished. I really liked the book, although I must say the final couple chapters (including the epilogue) kind of left me feeling meh. Maybe I'll change my mind in the morning when I'm more...awake. Some thoughts:
ADWD brings Martin's world to life like no other book in the series has. While the first three books certainly feature a host of impressive worldbuilding, ADWD and AFFC take things to another level by introducing more culture and worldviews. Slavery and humanity play major themes throughout the novel, and this is best illustrated in the Jon and Dany chapters; they essentially mirror each other. Each attempt to do what's best for not only the men and women they preside over, but also the rest of mankind.
The book works best in the North, where nearly every POV is good or great. In Essos things are more complicated. Dany easily has the worst POV in the novel, but it improves over time. The biggest problem is what while the worldbuilding in Essos is quite impressive, the characters that inhabit it simply aren't nearly as interesting. Dany's council seems a poor substitution for that of King's Landing, or the power players in Dorne. While the overall Dany arc is certainly fascinating, watching it unravel is less so.
I'll put the rest in spoilers
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I loved Tyrion's entire arc. The Tyrion in ADWD is a broken man yet displays all the charm and wit that make him the best character in the series. His travels with Griff were some of my favorite chapters in the books. But perhaps my favorite part of his POV was the introduction of Penny, who seemed to capsulize the novel's focus on slavery. She sees herself as nigh worthless and is more than content to dance and entertain her betters, never daring to get in their way or demand any type of dignity. As a street performer and as a slave her personality doesn't change. Tyrion's reaction to her mindset makes for some great moments.
-Loved Jon's arc. It reminded me of the story of the Hightower lord who ordered Oldtown to be put to torch to stem the spread of disease; shortly after his actions he was dragged off his horse and murdered. And yet he saved the realm. Jon's actions may just hold off the Others long enough to save it. And on a side note, that story makes me wonder whether Dany will burn all of Mereen when she returns, to stop the spread of the flux...
-I also loved Reek's chapters. I felt sorry for him, something I never thought I'd do. His chapters also served to illustrate just disgusting the Boltons are. Holy shit, they both need to die.
-Davos had few POVs, but they were all amazing - including what is my favorite moment of the book: The North remembers.
-Quentyn...I must say his POVs were good, but I was baffled by his decision to tame the dragons. I understand he didn't want to fail his father, but for such a cautious man it seemed like quite an idiotic decision to free the dragons. They were about to claw their way out eventually. And considering Dorne would declare for Dany regardless, it seems almost a waste to kill him off like that.
Griff's chapters were great as well. It seems obvious Aegon is not the real Aegon, given the prophesy. Yet he seems like quite a badass. Could he possibly be a bastard of Rhaegar's? On one hand Ned doubts Rhaegar visited brothels (GoT), on the other hand Cersei suggests he frequented them (AFFC). The boy clearly displays physical traits of a Targeryen. I wonder if he'll end up having greyscale though.
-Haven't seen much discussion on the epilogue. It kind of left me cold. I loved seeing Varys again but it seemed almost like a superhero villain monologue, revealing his master plan. I kind of wonder if my disappointment has more to do with me thinking Arya was about to assassinate Tommen. The tomcat in the window, the veiled little boy at the gate...I thought for sure a Faceless Man attack was about to happen. Still, the chapter means we get more Cersei action. Yesssssss
-Speaking of Cersei, what was that septon trying to whisper about Loras...
Things I didn't like:
-Towards the end of the book it started to feel like Martin was dragging things along. Based on his editor's comments it seems pretty obvious the Stannis/Bolton conflict was removed from the book. I honestly felt cheated. Nor do I like the idea of Stannis' entire host near starving in a blizzard and somehow barely losing any men. Seemed unrealistic to me. I can't really see how he'll break Winterfell with a starving, frozen host. More than likely Tormund will lead the Wildlings off to save the day in the next book.
-I hated Dany's last chapter. I had been under the assumption that the book was "really" 1013 pages or so, so when I got to the end of her chapter and saw the Epilog was next I was pissed off. It just struck me as a boring, bland end to an arc that had been getting exciting. It just left a bad taste in my mouth, nor did I care for the ending with her finding the Khalasar. I'm guessing she'll either kill them all or lead them all to the walls of the city and free her people.
-Finally, I was majorly disappointed not to get any information on the issue of Robb's heir and the location of the Blackfish. Rickon being alive makes the heir issue null, but I still couldn't help but be upset there was no new information on this. And the Blackfish...bah. Maybe I should have expected it, considering he's probably going to the Eyrie.
A great book, but towards the end Martin essentially hamstrings the viewer with a series of POV ends - some are the standard shock cliff hangers he does so well, others basically halt all momentum and left me feeling shitty knowing I'll have to wait about 3 (or more...) years to get resolution to things that should have happened in this book. His editor already confirmed three major acts were moved to the next book. There was room for at least one of them, perhaps two if the book was paced differently.
Which POVs were shitty in AFFC? I liked Brienne's a lot more on my second reading; still, she has the weakest in that novel. Dany clearly has the worst in ADWD although they get better.
ADWD...All the stuff in the North rocks, and sets up some amazing shit for TWOW. And also..
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Wyman Manderly has to be the most badass person in the book holy shit. Dude kills (and eats) more Freys than have died throughout the rest of the series
The North remembers
Didn't like the Jon stuff at all, to be honest. Some of the stuff with the wildlings was good but Jon seemed like an idiot sometimes and it was just really dry and rote for the most part in his chapters. Plus you know that Martin isn't gonna
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keep him dead
Anyway, I just think you have low standards, as evidenced by your love of all things Harry Potter and Olive Garden.
Meh, sounds like you didn't like the worldbuilding Triumph
I can only think of a couple stupid things Jon did,
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-Sending his most trusted friends away
-Deciding to break his vows and march against Winterfell/Bolton
-Not keeping Ghost with him at nearly all times
Finally on Jon, it's obvious he's not dead. That very scene met the prophesy required for AA reborn. Melisandre said he will be a man then wolf then man. I'd imagine he'll live on in Ghost until she fixes his body. At which point the NW will truly shit their pants. Personally I'm tired of that shit. Dead should be dead. Martin constantly says he would have kept Gandalf dead if he wrote LOTR, but then he brings multiple characters back to life or uses a host of fake-out deaths. I hate that shit.
The only clear case of treading, to me, was
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Stannis being stuck in the snow. Not only is it not realistic militarily, it was VERY obvious that battle was removed from the book and put into TWOW; hell Martin's editor basically confirms it. Stannis has not attacked Winterfell yet, regardless of what Ramsay says.
Dany's attempt to govern was a logical turn of events. The problem I had was that the characters who helped advance the plot were largely forgettable. Could her story have been summed up faster? IMO yes. It seemed like her last chapter could have been her first chapter in TWOW.
Tyrion's chapters were very good. All the stuff on the boat, with him unraveling Griff's identity, was cool. I loved Penny and the interactions she had with Tyrion, as I mentioned in my review/rant.
Jon has a similar amount of chapters as Tyrion/Dany, and he clearly had strong ones from beginning to bitter end. Even the few people who didn't like the book are generally admitting the North arcs were amazing. I'd also say the AFFC resolutions were amazing. I wanted to see Cersei's trial, but her couple chapters were strong regardless; sucks we have to wait to find out what the septa was saying about Loras. I liked the epilogue a lot more on my second reading of it, although the "evil master plan" reveal is still ehhh. Really what that chapter did was expose how weak the Dany governing chapters were. I'd much rather read a council session including Kevan, Prycelle, Mace, etc than the forgetful characters she surrounded herself with
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In the past she was like YES SIR I WILL BUY SOME SLAVES and the guy is like CASH OR CREDIT and she's like DO YOU TAKE....FIERY DEATH?!?!?!?! but now they're like "Uh, Dany, the army is outside the gates and they want to kill eveyrone and they're making people ill with poopy disease" and she's like "USE VIOLENCE WHY I NEVER" and then she keeps rubbing one out to Captain Jack Sparrow, who is described as basically the grossest man ever with his purple oily beard. Ugh. Also I love that it's like EVERYONE STANNIS TOOK NORTH DIED IN THE SNOW and Ramsay is like OMG STANNIS IS AATTACKING and RR is like "haha maybe next book okay guys c u"
You could concievably make one good book from 4+5, but chopping it into 2 books was a terrible idea. There's more filler than a Splenda packet.
What the hell?
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Dany brokered a peace to avoid bloodshed within her walls, and because she didn't have a large enough army to face her enemies in the open field; what was she supposed to do but marry for peace? Ultimately she was planning on dealing with the Volantese attack but she...disappeared before it happened. That's not a retcon at all.
Now apparently she has semi-control over a dragon and 20,000 Dothraki. Although I have a feeling her city will be dying of disease by the time she gets back, and she'll be forced to purge the entire place.
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IT WAS NEVER HER FUCKING CITY SHE'S SUPPOSED TO GO TO WESTEROS THE STUPID COW
i mean fuck
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And land where, and do what? Unlike Fake Aegon, she didn't have a poorly guarded keep to reclaim, with 10k trained sellswords behind her and a shit ton of gold.
I suppose she could have sailed for Dorne, but she would have had to leave most of her army behind. Dorne has a 50k army - not enough to take the realm yet; plus if she sailed at the end of ASOS she'd arrive just in time to face the damn Tyrells and Lannisters. At the time she had no control of her dragons either. I hated the cheap way she magically seemed to control one at the end of ADWD btw.
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Land on Dragonstone or near King's Landing. Unleash Dragons on King's Landing. Saunter in and sit her shapely ass on the Iron Throne.
Instead we got a bunch of hemming and hawing and getting the vapors over dumb shit.
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Dragonstone was held by Stannis at the time, how was she going to take the caste with no war ships? Seriously. And her dragons wouldn't be big enough to do much of anything, and they cannot be controlled (yet). Staying in Meereen gives her dragons time to grow, gives her time to learn how to control them (Victarion's horn), and gain a large enough army/ships/gold to sail.
Your complaints make no sense breh. And I'm starting to believe Dany might never take the thrown, or challenge it. She'll go to the Wall :-\
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but
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and of course spoiler (click to show/hide)
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made ya look!
Definitely not happy with the book overall. spoiler (click to show/hide)
Some PoVs were enjoyable throughout but I found that Jon's and Danny's chapters were huge snores. Tyrion's was interesting at first then Martin felt the need to keep him away from any spectacular meetings. On the whole everything felt like a whole bunch of shuffling but nothing really happened. I mean the whole fucking book they talk about the battle for Mereen and at the end of 1000 FUCKING PAGES is when the battle actually starts. What.the.fuck. This truly felt like the second half of AFFC in the worst way possible. I had a feeling the overlapping scenarios with the PoVs we missed in AFFC would really slow the book down but not this much.
Also the Martin's attention to detail now mixed with lore is absolutely cloying in parts of the book. It was the first time I felt the need to skim whole paragraphs to get to the point in any book ever.
Some of my favorite parts in the book:
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-"The North Remembers" :bow
-Arya killing that insurance guy with the poisoned coin; also, Arya warging into the cat
-Manderly cooking the Freys into pies and eating the biggest slice to convince the Boltons to try them :lol
-The stonemen attack on Griff's boat/Tyrion falling into the water. I'm confused though: did Connington contract greyscale at that point, or did he have it all along?
-Cersei's walk of shame
-Jon beheading Slynt
-Theon getting Moat Cailin to surrender. Just about everything involving Reek/Boltons was awesome
-Jon's betrayal
-Prince Martell further revealing his plans, including the ridiculous Cersei plot to kill his son
Some of my favorite parts in the book:
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-"The North Remembers" :bow
-Arya killing that insurance guy with the poisoned coin; also, Arya warging into the cat
-Manderly cooking the Freys into pies and eating the biggest slice to convince the Boltons to try them :lol
-The stonemen attack on Griff's boat/Tyrion falling into the water. I'm confused though: did Connington contract greyscale at that point, or did he have it all along?
-Cersei's walk of shame
-Jon beheading Slynt
-Theon getting Moat Cailin to surrender. Just about everything involving Reek/Boltons was awesome
-Jon's betrayal
-Prince Martell further revealing his plans, including the ridiculous Cersei plot to kill his son
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"You have to remember your name."
I didn't think that I would enjoy Theon's return as much as I did, but god damn those were some good chapters.
I agree with some of the criticizing, for example I don't care that some guy with one line on the book is called ser gerold of the chickencunt and that he is wearing a crimson cloack and boiled leather over rusted mail and an entire chapter about Tiryon eating was completely unnecessary but overall the book was pretty fucking good specially the Jon and Bran chapters also more Victarion being a bad ass motherfucker wouldn't hurt.
Also there was no need to repeat what Rheagal thought of the Connington's lands 20 times in a single fucking chapter.
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apparently that chapter suggested Connington is gay, and Martin confirmed it a few days ago
I agree with some of the criticizing, for example I don't care that some guy with one line on the book is called ser gerold of the chickencunt and that he is wearing a crimson cloack and boiled leather over rusted mail and an entire chapter about Tiryon eating was completely unnecessary but overall the book was pretty fucking good specially the Jon and Bran chapters also more Victarion being a bad ass motherfucker wouldn't hurt.
Also there was no need to repeat what Rheagal thought of the Connington's lands 20 times in a single fucking chapter.
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apparently that chapter suggested Connington is gay, and Martin confirmed it a few days ago
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So we'll get four flashbacks of dick sucking in Season 5 of the show?
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The Targeryens are apparently immune to disease. Perhaps the only thing I liked about Dany's last chapter is that she seemingly gets sick, but as you read on it becomes clear she's having a miscarriage; she can't truly catch the flux (dysentery) and seems to just be shitting due to the berries.
With Connington having greyscale and constantly being around Aegon, I wonder if him being infected will be one of the ways Dany proves he's a fraud - assuming she comes to Westeros.
EDIT: someone in the GAF thread said not all Targs are immune, citing a Dunk And Egg short story where a bunch of Targs died to a sickness
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Bloodraven=Three Eyed Crow
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Do people really believe that Stannis is dead? Theon and Jeyne where with him so Ramsay would have found them, I think he just said that to scare Jon.
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Do people really believe that Stannis is dead? Theon and Jeyne where with him so Ramsay would have found them, I think he just said that to scare Jon.
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I think it's fake. With Theon and Jeyne in his grasp, I see no reason why Stannis would hastily attack Winterfell. He now also knows for sure that the Karstarks plan to betray him. Plus from a writing perspective, I really see no point of the banker finding Stannis just to kill him off shortly afterward - off screen. That would be a horrible narrative decision; not showing the battle was too imo, but this would be nigh unforgivably stupid.
Stannis will deal with the Karstarks then perhaps head to one of the holdfasts controlled by Ironmen; or he could return to the Wall. Ramsay will have no choice but to pursue them somehow, considering his entire claim to the throne rests with Fake Arya.
Probably the only true thing in the letter is that the Boltons have captured Mance (the singer in Winterfell).
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He'd have the fake Arya if he had actually won a battle (7 day battle is laughable too).
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Do people really believe that Stannis is dead? Theon and Jeyne where with him so Ramsay would have found them, I think he just said that to scare Jon.
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I think it's fake. With Theon and Jeyne in his grasp, I see no reason why Stannis would hastily attack Winterfell. He now also knows for sure that the Karstarks plan to betray him. Plus from a writing perspective, I really see no point of the banker finding Stannis just to kill him off shortly afterward - off screen. That would be a horrible narrative decision; not showing the battle was too imo, but this would be nigh unforgivably stupid.
Stannis will deal with the Karstarks then perhaps head to one of the holdfasts controlled by Ironmen; or he could return to the Wall. Ramsay will have no choice but to pursue them somehow, considering his entire claim to the throne rests with Fake Arya.
Probably the only true thing in the letter is that the Boltons have captured Mance (the singer in Winterfell).
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I think the battle was one of those chapters that GRRM moved to winds of winter so I won't be surprise if Asha or Theon are one of the first chapters of that book.
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Do people really believe that Stannis is dead? Theon and Jeyne where with him so Ramsay would have found them, I think he just said that to scare Jon.
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I think it's fake. With Theon and Jeyne in his grasp, I see no reason why Stannis would hastily attack Winterfell. He now also knows for sure that the Karstarks plan to betray him. Plus from a writing perspective, I really see no point of the banker finding Stannis just to kill him off shortly afterward - off screen. That would be a horrible narrative decision; not showing the battle was too imo, but this would be nigh unforgivably stupid.
Stannis will deal with the Karstarks then perhaps head to one of the holdfasts controlled by Ironmen; or he could return to the Wall. Ramsay will have no choice but to pursue them somehow, considering his entire claim to the throne rests with Fake Arya.
Probably the only true thing in the letter is that the Boltons have captured Mance (the singer in Winterfell).
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I think the battle was one of those chapters that GRRM moved to winds of winter so I won't be surprise if Asha or Theon are one of the first chapters of that book.
Agreed. Here's the interview with his editor:
Finishing this book where he absolutely wanted to end it would have taken probably another year and more pages than could be realistically bound between two covers. And so much great stuff had happened already that no one, I felt, could be unsatisfied by the developments. So he voluntarily pulled one big sequence out of the book. I lobbied for another…and it came out, too.
http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html
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I think of of the big sequences was Dany either killing the khalasar or taking it over before marching for Mereen. The other had to be the battle for Winterfell. Given Martin's realistic take on battles throughout the series, especially in terms of the human cost throughout ADWD, I really felt it was rather unrealistic that a huge army could get stuck in a giant snow storm and suffer minor losses. It really felt like he stalled that plot.
I definitely agree, the Winterfell battle will probably be an early TWOW chapter. I just wonder who's POV will it been seen through. Theon and Asha are with Stannis, and it seems unlikely he'd risk either by including them in the battle. Perhaps we'll see it through a prologue character.