THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: demi on August 17, 2011, 12:53:21 PM

Title: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: demi on August 17, 2011, 12:53:21 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/NgjUj.jpg)
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Himu on August 17, 2011, 12:54:16 PM
 :lol
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Great Rumbler on August 17, 2011, 01:01:52 PM
lol

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Except he was referring to randomized accuracy.  8)

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/36637/GDC_Europe_Obsidians_Five_Hard_Lessons_Of_RPG_Design.php
[close]
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Robo on August 17, 2011, 01:46:06 PM
Nice try, horny.
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Herr Mafflard on August 17, 2011, 03:06:43 PM
Quote from: Great Rumbler on August 17, 2011, 01:01:52 PM
lol

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Except he was referring to randomized accuracy.  8)

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/36637/GDC_Europe_Obsidians_Five_Hard_Lessons_Of_RPG_Design.php
spoiler (click to show/hide)
[close]
[close]
aka 'streamlining', or 'dumbing down'--derived from the condition: 'bioware syndrome'


There's a fine line between making your game more 'fun' and alienating a core section of your userbase, as demonstrated by DA2. It works (or is adequate, depending on your pov) when the core gameplay is kept much the same and refined like in ME2.

His example with the Fallout 3 'Big Guns' skill is spot on. Adding too many arbitrary skill conditions does not add depth to your game, it annoys and confuses the player.

Skyrim is the next test for this; but I wouldn't worry about that too much because the combat in that was never any good and they can only take it one direction: up.
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Great Rumbler on August 17, 2011, 03:20:05 PM
Yeah, I think Skyrim will be okay in that regard.

Edit: I think one of the reasons this is becoming a problem is because these tabletop rules are being shoved into a format that they were never designed to work with. A real-time action RPG is not the same thing as a turn-based Dungeons and Dragons session with a pile of rule books and stat cards. Which is not to say that those things don't have their place anymore, but I think a lot of developers are struggling to find where and how they fit with modern gaming sensibilities.
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Bebpo on August 17, 2011, 03:45:39 PM
 :heartbeat Alpha Protocol  :heartbeat

:bow God Tier Rpg :bow2
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Positive Touch on August 17, 2011, 05:37:33 PM
Quote from: Herr Mafflard on August 17, 2011, 03:06:43 PM
There's a fine line between making your game more 'fun' and alienating a core section of your userbase,

yes but i think its a bigger problem when developers keep catering to their limited userbase by keeping outdated, cumbersome systems in place when they could be switching these up and gaining a much wider audience.

his example with icewind dale was spot-on; i made it 2/3 of the way through planescape torment before i had to give up because i was forced into a dungeon that i just couldn't finish.  the old d&d-based combat was nonsensical to me and my half-assing it could only get me so far.  the idea that i could even create a character/party that would not be able to finish the game was total bullshit and kept me away from most old-school western rpgs.

most recent games have fortunately moved away from this, but as he points out most melding of rpg systems with other genres is half-assed.  putting tiny incremental points in my stats in fallout or mass effect 1 is tedious and doesnt translate into a good feeling of progress.  moving to systems where players have fuller direct control is great but putting more stat-related stuff into the background and replacing them with better options (minigames instead of percentage chance/fail, new skills/rewards instead of numeric boosts to stats, more clearly telegraphed outcomes to risk/reward situations) go a long way towards making games more fluid and less tedious.
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: pilonv1 on August 17, 2011, 07:43:55 PM
Quote from: Bebpo on August 17, 2011, 03:45:39 PM
:heartbeat Alpha Protocol  :heartbeat

:bow God Tier Rpg :bow2

Agreed :bow2
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: tiesto on August 17, 2011, 11:03:45 PM
Quote from: Positive Touch on August 17, 2011, 05:37:33 PM
Quote from: Herr Mafflard on August 17, 2011, 03:06:43 PM
There's a fine line between making your game more 'fun' and alienating a core section of your userbase,

yes but i think its a bigger problem when developers keep catering to their limited userbase by keeping outdated, cumbersome systems in place when they could be switching these up and gaining a much wider audience.

his example with icewind dale was spot-on; i made it 2/3 of the way through planescape torment before i had to give up because i was forced into a dungeon that i just couldn't finish.  the old d&d-based combat was nonsensical to me and my half-assing it could only get me so far.  the idea that i could even create a character/party that would not be able to finish the game was total bullshit and kept me away from most old-school western rpgs.

most recent games have fortunately moved away from this, but as he points out most melding of rpg systems with other genres is half-assed.  putting tiny incremental points in my stats in fallout or mass effect 1 is tedious and doesnt translate into a good feeling of progress.  moving to systems where players have fuller direct control is great but putting more stat-related stuff into the background and replacing them with better options (minigames instead of percentage chance/fail, new skills/rewards instead of numeric boosts to stats, more clearly telegraphed outcomes to risk/reward situations) go a long way towards making games more fluid and less tedious.

What dungeon was it? You can run from most battles in Planescape with little penalty, and you can also set your slider down to "Easy" at any time.
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Great Rumbler on August 17, 2011, 11:16:04 PM
You also can't get a gameover, since your character is immortal.
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Positive Touch on August 17, 2011, 11:29:59 PM
way late in the game there's this dungeon under a bar that you have to get really far in to find this chained up angel.  there's tons of monsters walking around (demons and huge dudes in armor IIRC) and my party was so weak that i could barely take out a single one, even though i'd completed damn near every quest that i found up to that point.  it's been years but i'm sure i tried lowering the difficulty, and i think dying just booted you back to the entrance. 

i tried replaying the game later on but got bored when i realized i still remembered most of the conversations :(
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: tiesto on August 18, 2011, 11:56:42 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that part, and it was pretty challenging for me too. The trick is to just kill a few enemies at a time, then retreat and rest. It takes a while to do that, which sucks.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
you also have to fight that angel later on, which was a hassle and I was tempted to slide the slider down to Easy
[close]

What I don't like about Planescape is the battle system sucks... damage is too random, and spells are mostly worthless (apart from the cool graphics). I should not have made my character a Mage, my biggest regret.
Title: Re: Bebpo & Great Rumbler eviscerated
Post by: Positive Touch on August 18, 2011, 06:47:45 PM
Quote from: tiesto on August 18, 2011, 11:56:42 AM
What I don't like about Planescape is the battle system sucks... damage is too random, and spells are mostly worthless (apart from the cool graphics). I should not have made my character a Mage, my biggest regret.

TRUTH

which of course gets us back on topic: why would you put in a CHARACTER CLASS of all things that was so weak and useless that it made the game nearly impossible?

PLAYTEST YOUR GAMES, DEVS.  functionality and playability over ambitious design, PLEASE