THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: Howard Alan Treesong on July 16, 2012, 07:15:47 PM

Title: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on July 16, 2012, 07:15:47 PM
This is a catch-all topic for your GARBAGE that's SHITTIN UP MY SALE THREAD

;)
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Raban on July 16, 2012, 07:22:59 PM
:lol

I didn't know it was gonna be a problem, I apologize! I thought the Bore was like the wild west.

I think we're done though...
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Timber on July 16, 2012, 07:29:16 PM
You cant be anything you want to... don't ever give up the dream. When is Persona 5 coming out?
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Joe Molotov on July 16, 2012, 07:30:10 PM
Some of the Playboy centerfolds from Mafia 2 were pretty artsy.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 16, 2012, 07:30:29 PM
People who want story at the expense of gameplay should go to the movies or watch tv more and quit ruining gameplay.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 16, 2012, 07:31:24 PM
tl;dr- if you enjoy the MGS series you should probably shoot yourself in the face
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Raban on July 16, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
tl;dr- if you enjoy the MGS series you should probably shoot yourself in the face

MGS1 and 2 have actually got pretty deep gameplay mechanics though. MGS3 would be cool too if it didn't require pausing the game every 45 seconds.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 16, 2012, 07:35:15 PM
tl;dr- if you enjoy the MGS series you should probably shoot yourself in the face

MGS1 and 2 have actually got pretty deep gameplay mechanics though. MGS3 would be cool too if it didn't require pausing the game every 45 seconds.

Yeah, too bad the first has aged and the second one barely lets you play at all in between raping you with it's shitburger of a "narrative"
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Raban on July 16, 2012, 07:37:00 PM
There's always VR Missions!
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 16, 2012, 07:42:42 PM
I just want to play some games that are fun, that's it.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Eel O'Brian on July 16, 2012, 07:46:17 PM
Far Cry 3 looks like it'll do some weird things as far as shooters go. Evidently there are a bunch of psychedelic drugs on the island, and at various points you'll be tripping balls while shooting shit.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Timber on July 16, 2012, 07:47:00 PM
I botched that post completely.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Joe Molotov on July 16, 2012, 07:52:20 PM
Far Cry 3 looks like it'll do some weird things as far as shooters go. Evidently there are a bunch of psychedelic drugs on the island, and at various points you'll be tripping balls while shooting shit.

Getting high on an island and having a wild, psychedelic, native ritual orgy is the kind of art I can get behind.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Eel O'Brian on July 16, 2012, 07:57:53 PM
I dunno about art, but I appreciate a decent/competent story in an rpg, seeing as how you're usually playing those for 20+ hours.  It doesn't have to be great or anything, but it's nice when there's been an effort.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: magus on July 16, 2012, 08:02:00 PM
People who want story at the expense of gameplay should go to the movies or watch tv more and quit ruining gameplay.

i don't get why people think like this,movie and tv don't feature any sort of interactivity at all,that's why something like phoenix wright works,because it's interactivity makes you think and partecipate in the murder plot where if you just watched a crime drama you would just go "ah-ah" "ah-ah" there is space for both sort of games geebus >:(

I dunno about art, but I appreciate a decent/competent story in an rpg, seeing as how you're usually playing those for 20+ hours.  It doesn't have to be great or anything, but it's nice when there's been an effort.

games are no more,no less artistic than animu and michael bay movies,it's just that gamers have a small dick and want someone to cuddle them into telling them their hobby is better

tl;dr- if you enjoy the MGS series you should probably shoot yourself in the face

I SURVIVED SNATCHER
it was :zzz :zzz :zzz
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Raban on July 16, 2012, 08:09:09 PM
I think the question "Are games art?" is pretty damn easy to answer. It's too bad every time it's brought up the conversation gets spun out into nonsense.

Games have art in them. A game is not art. Here's how you can look at it without having to thinking about whatever specific video game you felt was "artistic".

Baseball itself is not art. But the designs on all the baseball player's outfits, the various architectural accents of the stadium they might be playing in, the manufacturer's logo on the catcher's mitt, those are all art.

A game is just a set of rules for the participant(s) to follow. Art is a form of expression/communication. Video games have both of these things.

games are no more,no less artistic than animu and michael bay movies,it's just that gamers have a small dick and want someone to cuddle them into telling them their hobby is better

Have I ever told you that I love you, magus? :heartbeat
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Eel O'Brian on July 16, 2012, 08:32:04 PM
well, of course games are artistic and have art in them, i don't think anyone's disputing that

usually, though, the "are games/can games be art?" question is put forth in the context of "can games be meaningful?" where "art" is a lazy, all-encompassing filler word for "meaningful," or "substance," etc.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 16, 2012, 08:38:59 PM
Goddamit not this shit again

games are not art and i don't understand why gamers NEED games to be art or even meaningful
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 16, 2012, 08:41:12 PM
Goddamit not this shit again

games are not art and i don't understand why gamers NEED games to be art or even meaningful

So they can feel like they're not societal outcasts

I say who cares, wear that shit with pride, society is a fucking shithole anyway, why would you want to be normal
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Timber on July 16, 2012, 08:43:01 PM
(http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/31/1110135-cera_persona4_super.jpg)
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 16, 2012, 08:46:28 PM
I mean, I like a lot of games that weigh heavily on the artistic side, namely adventure games of the point n' clickin' variety, which are nothing but stories tethered with puzzles. Games like those, like Grim Fandango, I DO consider to be art because it a meaningful piece of human culture. But my problem are the gamers who act like games as a medium should STRIVE to ALL be like that. It's so ridiculous and reeks of the highest form of pretension from a medium that is mostly shooting distinguished black fellows in the face.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Raban on July 16, 2012, 08:48:05 PM
well, of course games are artistic and have art in them, i don't think anyone's disputing that

usually, though, the "are games/can games be art?" question is put forth in the context of "can games be meaningful?" where "art" is a lazy, all-encompassing filler word for "meaningful," or "substance," etc.

Hm. Laziness indeed. Either way, I think games definitely can be meaningful, but I'll admit that might be bias. They've been meaningful to me my whole life.

Goddamit not this shit again

games are not art and i don't understand why gamers NEED games to be art or even meaningful

:patel

So they can feel like they're not societal outcasts

I say who cares, wear that shit with pride, society is a fucking shithole anyway, why would you want to be normal

Damn straight!
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: tiesto on July 16, 2012, 09:29:26 PM
I don't care one way or another. I've liked my fair share of pretentious, arty-farty games (most recently, Journey), but when it comes down to it, there's nothing like pure arcade tests of reflexes and muscle memory... or RPG with stats and turn-based battles and complex systems... for me.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on July 16, 2012, 10:15:41 PM
People that want to make the games = art argument are losers who want to justify why they're in their mid 20s enjoying their nerdy hobby.

"Wow so Metal Gear Solid and Super Mario Bros. are art?  I guess I don't feel like such a loser after all by playing video games!"

Just enjoy your nerd hobby without any pretensions.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brawndolicious on July 16, 2012, 10:47:33 PM
People who want story at the expense of gameplay should go to the movies or watch tv more and quit ruining gameplay.

Would you really prefer to skip cutscenes and not make any choices in a game like Mass Effect or Deus Ex? Having the gameplay be part of the story can enhance your appreciation of it.

MGS is just a shit story as it is, but it's the rule and not the exception.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Positive Touch on July 16, 2012, 11:20:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eu--rYbaDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eu--rYbaDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eu--rYbaDU
Title: Re: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: naff on July 18, 2012, 01:17:47 AM
tl;dr- if you enjoy the MGS series you should probably shoot yourself in the face

MGS1 and 2 have actually got pretty deep gameplay mechanics though. MGS3 would be cool too if it didn't require pausing the game every 45 seconds.

Yeah, too bad the first has aged and the second one barely lets you play at all in between raping you with it's shitburger of a "narrative"

Bu bu bu it's a self aware post modern work of art!

Used to love getting high and playing mgs2 in high school. Loved that shitburgers story <3
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: rodi on July 18, 2012, 01:32:19 AM
I think there's a huge difference between games that Michael Bay could have made and games that actually leave you with a profound experience. Throwing the extreme left and extreme right and everything in the middle into a bag labelled "nerd hobby" is going a bit far.

imo
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on July 18, 2012, 09:16:12 AM
Lots of great art has shitty stories, your criticisms are unpersuasive
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brob on July 18, 2012, 09:44:24 AM
something simply being "art" is meaningless. people arguing about this probably are self-diagnosed with some form of condition.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 18, 2012, 10:20:42 AM
A child scribbling on a sheet of paper with a crayon is art, but that doesn't mean it's meaningful art.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
OR DOES IT?!?!?!?!
[close]
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 18, 2012, 02:30:04 PM
Lots of great art has shitty stories, your criticisms are unpersuasive

who said anything about great stories? games problem is that they are interactive, unlike other mediums, which means that there are a whole slew of things, such as mathematics and programming, not to mention the visual side of things, and the mechanics that go with it. this means that not enough time will always be paid attention to or even cared for in regards to actually crafting something meaningful to human culture. games are fun, and that's why i like them. but it's no surprise that the more artistic games are lacking in the more traditional gameplay department. games like silent hill 2 are atrocious when it comes to game mechanics, but are excellent showcases as to what the medium is capable of. But still, ultimately, it'll be better as a book or a movie because being a good game should and always will, be more important than being a meaningful game. that's just how the medium is, and the quality of the stories is irrelevant; for most games it comes down to: be a good game or tell a good story and be a crappy game. A good movie can still be a good movie without telling a good story, so long as it is well directed and edited to make the narrative flow with a sense of cohesion. but ultimately the entire POINT of movies *is* to tell stories. The point of video games is to entertain and offer brain teasers and puzzles to beat with a set of rules in place.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Phoenix Dark on July 18, 2012, 02:31:42 PM
I think gamers want commitment and stability
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 18, 2012, 02:37:57 PM
I may be soon if i play my cards right
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brawndolicious on July 18, 2012, 03:37:46 PM
Lots of great art has shitty stories, your criticisms are unpersuasive

who said anything about great stories? games problem is that they are interactive, unlike other mediums, which means that there are a whole slew of things, such as mathematics and programming, not to mention the visual side of things, and the mechanics that go with it. this means that not enough time will always be paid attention to or even cared for in regards to actually crafting something meaningful to human culture. games are fun, and that's why i like them. but it's no surprise that the more artistic games are lacking in the more traditional gameplay department. games like silent hill 2 are atrocious when it comes to game mechanics, but are excellent showcases as to what the medium is capable of. But still, ultimately, it'll be better as a book or a movie because being a good game should and always will, be more important than being a meaningful game. that's just how the medium is, and the quality of the stories is irrelevant; for most games it comes down to: be a good game or tell a good story and be a crappy game. A good movie can still be a good movie without telling a good story, so long as it is well directed and edited to make the narrative flow with a sense of cohesion. but ultimately the entire POINT of movies *is* to tell stories. The point of video games is to entertain and offer brain teasers and puzzles to beat with a set of rules in place.

Interaction can make you more emotionally invested in the characters. If you're just talking about doing QTEs to boost your stats and loot, then maybe you have a point. But a game that rewards observation and planning out your tactics will make you feel a bit more like you're actually in the characters shoes. It can make you think more about how the player character would perform his job which can then enhance how you feel about the actual story events going on with that character.

In this way, a lot of games put storytelling on the same tier as gameplay in how memorable they make the experience. And when I say "a lot" I mean 1%, but you get that the medium can offer some things that books/movies can't.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 18, 2012, 05:24:52 PM
I agree that interaction is the one thing that separates gaming from other stuff and also that characters work well with gaming. Gaming is great at a few things: 1. Characters, even if they aren't as well written for the most part, I really enjoy game characters because you are with them for 10, 20, 50, 100 hours and you grow attached; 2. Immersion story telling, ie. world building in a game like Skyrim, or role playing in a game like Baldur's Gate, or the psychological horror presented in Silent Hill 2 that bends player expectations; 3. controlling a character and using him/her for your own doing, games like the aforementioned Silent Hill 2 are great at this, you see a big ass hole? Well, Mr. game player, you have no choice but to jump in it. What are these holes for? You don't know. What do they represent? Maybe James' further descent down the abyss of Silent Hill and his own insanity? Either way, if it weren't a movie, you'd just watch him do it, but in a game you control, you - the player - have to actively make the player do uncomfortable and  unwanted things in order to progress the game.

This is why, if you want a real pure bred "art" genre for video games, you really should just stick with adventure games of the old pc variety, because they feature all of this and more, of which I consider games like Shenmue and Silent Hill to be a part of.

sheeeeeeeeeeeit /clay davis

I look forward to playing your games. :shh

only pre-production art, like character designs and environmental design. not interested in any other aspect.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: rodi on July 19, 2012, 08:31:42 PM
Who says there isn't any interaction in art?
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brob on July 20, 2012, 07:30:43 PM
'interactive art' is a thing. more commonly interactive installation art.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: rodi on July 21, 2012, 02:42:27 PM
I never got installation art, but it's still interactive and it's still art. Hey, just like some video games!  :o
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 21, 2012, 02:48:06 PM
I don't think you got my point about interactivity and video games. Video games are not art due to their interactivity. They're not art because they're emotionally stunted and incapable of doing little else except being entertainment BECAUSE they have to be interactive and engaging and "fun". When you have games that limit interactivity in place of cutscenes and story, you have really bad games. So it's either make a story-based game with shit gameplay or make a game that has an emphasis on "fun" and little else, especially not story. This means there is a limitation within the medium.

We drew a parallel to sports earlier in this thread, but I've never known video games to tear down racial, social, and country walls that impede progress like sports have. Video games have offered humanity very little despite being 40 years old. Sure, they're special to us, but due to the very confines of the medium, it limits the range of people who can be involved in it by default, and that's just one of the major points against video games; art should and always be something hands on, that all people can access and weigh in their opinion, and due to the very basic principles of video games - controls, mainly -  someone who has never played them WILL struggle playing something like fucking Mass Effect. Whoops! But ANYONE who isn't blind can go to a movie and watch the latest Scorsese film. Notice that diff? That said, while I don't think games are an artistic medium, I do think there some games can be considered art, but they are exceptions and not the rule.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brob on July 21, 2012, 03:59:38 PM
there is no rule that says games have to be fun (or engaging for that matter). Nor is there a dichotomy wherein you are forced to either have cut-scenes and a story with shit gameplay or make a game that has an emphasis on fun and little else. so the conclusion that there is a limitation within the medium is flawed.

And if it is a requirement that all people can access and weigh in their opinion this excludes far more than just video games. You also seem to be using 'art' as a qualitative statement which goes back to the absolute perfunctory nature of this discussion.

The only area I see this being a valid -serious business- discussion to have, and still retain some feeling of worth is if having games be called 'art' comes with some benefit. Like for instance applicability to a governmental culture fund or somesuch shit. Most funds of this nature already accept video games as fund-able ventures though (limbo was funded this way, to provide an example), so why bother?
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 21, 2012, 04:06:41 PM
I heavily disagree with the first parts of your post, but agree completely with the last statement. I just like getting into it because I'm bored, not that I really care.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brob on July 21, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
if you are bored you should rather spend your time reading this three part feature on rockpapershotgun about Pathologic, an amazing adventure game that is absolutely no fun at all.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/10/butchering-pathologic-part-1-the-body/
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: fistfulofmetal on July 21, 2012, 10:38:29 PM
I agree with Brobzoid. The idea the games HAVE to be anything is dumb.

But I think that way about anything. Putting limitations on any medium is dumb.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 22, 2012, 12:43:16 AM
I disagree. Being fun is the main part of being a GAME. Change the word for what it's described then. But when I think of games, I think of enjoyment, for a whole multitude of reasons and that should be the most important trait any game should strive for.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: cool breeze on July 22, 2012, 12:54:43 AM
this reminds me of the most wahjah inducing video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU-H-e0XTE4
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brob on July 22, 2012, 03:50:14 AM
games are rules and win/loss conditions, a game is a game regardless of how fun you or I think it is. I had absolutely no fun at all playing super mario galaxy, but it would be autistic to argue that it's less of a game for it. (children's) toys, on the other hand, should probably be fun. so I guess I could pee in mario's cornflakes anyway.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 22, 2012, 03:55:52 AM
The parameters we're talking doesn't mean that EVERY game is going to be fun because that is impossible. Not all of us have the same taste.

However, the purpose of games is to win. You win through interaction with the game. A lot of the "artistic" games like Journey or Heavy Rain lack the interactivity that make games unique. It seems that the more artistic a game tries to be, the less interaction there is, thus, being less of a game because of it. Is really the only point I'm trying to make. Interaction = engaging, fun, unique. Many games' idea of "art" and "story" is to shove as many cutscenes down your throat as possible which impedes on the interaction that makes games unique.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 22, 2012, 03:59:01 AM
When I say gaming is limited, I'm not placing a limit on the medium; the medium limits itself by being games in the first place since the goal will always be to win.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brob on July 22, 2012, 04:04:03 AM
if the parameters we are talking about don't apply to every game we aren't talking about the parameters for what constitutes a game.

The artistic games you mention, and others like them (heavily promoted by large companies, etc) are so Kinkade~esque and absolutely devoid of anything it's impossible to care beyond the initial visual jerk-off. if you watch a HD play-though of Journey on youtube you have effectively pirated that shit. Did you read the article I posted himu?
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: rodi on July 22, 2012, 04:37:01 AM
I see what you're saying, Stringer Bell, but some parts of it doesn't sit well  :-\

When I play a game I really don't play to win or lose. Sometimes I just want to be engaged in something that I find visually and audibly pleasing, and entertaining. However, I do understand that there are some games that I would never ever want to see recognized as art. Like, I'm sure some people feel the same way about dubstep.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: OptimoPeach on July 22, 2012, 10:30:14 AM
edit: nm lol
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: rodi on July 22, 2012, 12:19:30 PM
Don't be jelly
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: rodi on July 22, 2012, 12:33:06 PM
There's only two or three people who seem to take this topic semi-seriously anyway. I don't think this counts as much of a thread  :lol
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: chronovore on July 23, 2012, 08:52:45 PM
Some games are art, some aren't.

Some films are art, some aren't.

Or maybe it's safer to say, "Films are art, but some of it is bad art."
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: rodi on July 24, 2012, 03:16:01 AM
Some games are art, some aren't.

Some films are art, some aren't.

Or maybe it's safer to say, "Films are art, but some of it is bad art."

Agreed.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: TEEEPO on July 24, 2012, 05:06:03 AM
and it used to be that color photography couldn't be considered art until one of the highest institutions in the art world displayed Eggleston's first portfolio, which literally changed everything overnight.

(http://williamyan.com/storage/william_eggleston_tricycle.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1262663890039)

the arguments used against video games being art seem silly to me, especially given art's long history of rejecting the new and radical. 
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Joe Molotov on July 24, 2012, 08:16:51 AM
if you are bored you should rather spend your time reading this three part feature on rockpapershotgun about Pathologic, an amazing adventure game that is absolutely no fun at all.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/10/butchering-pathologic-part-1-the-body/

I would watch someone play that game, but I wouldn't want to play it.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brob on July 24, 2012, 09:01:44 AM
don't think I've seen anyone do a video LP of it, but there was a very good video let's play of The Void on Something Awful. archived here: http://lparchive.org/The-Void/

The Void is infinitely more playable than Pathologic, but it's still requires some effort as most of the systems/mechanics aren't explained all that much.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Timber on July 24, 2012, 09:36:04 AM
OKAY I'm gonan play Pathologic.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Timber on July 24, 2012, 09:38:17 AM
BTW I posted this before in another thread where the subject came up, but it's so good it bears reposting:

http://www.movingimagesource.us/articles/state-of-play-pt-1-20100512
http://www.movingimagesource.us/articles/state-of-play-pt-2-20100519
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Robo on July 24, 2012, 11:55:01 AM
and it used to be that color photography couldn't be considered art until one of the highest institutions in the art world displayed Eggleston's first portfolio, which literally changed everything overnight.

the arguments used against video games being art seem silly to me, especially given art's long history of rejecting the new and radical.

I wrote up a big post to this effect a few days ago, but it was very nasty to a few individuals in this thread, so I decided against it.  But I agree; glad someone else was able to get to that point without being an asshole about it.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 24, 2012, 03:14:49 PM
You should post it, Robo. Feelings won't be hurt.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 24, 2012, 03:40:16 PM
and it used to be that color photography couldn't be considered art until one of the highest institutions in the art world displayed Eggleston's first portfolio, which literally changed everything overnight.

(http://williamyan.com/storage/william_eggleston_tricycle.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1262663890039)

the arguments used against video games being art seem silly to me, especially given art's long history of rejecting the new and radical. 


I wouldn't say that games are necessarily a new thing. But comparing games to the color photo seems a bit reaching to me. The color photo allows people to see photos in a completely different view or manner. Video games, in their present form at least, are a very specific niche. It's not like an old woman who has never played video games before just pick up a 360 controller and start playing Bioshock. She will be confused out of her wits. But anyone who isn't blind can look at a color photo and weigh an opinion in. Reflexes won't matter, muscle memory won't matter. The biggest obstacle of video games as a medium are the controls in which we control them which makes it very hard for the average person to actually experience them. Games could very well be an artistic medium in 10-30 years because I sure as hell can't tell the future, but from what I've been taught about art, what I described goes against the very core of an artistic medium: something hands on that can be experienced just to be experienced, without anything in between.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 03:58:43 PM
The artist merit of video games is in their ability to allow players to become immersed in a fiction world and experience events within that world, as well as to influence events to some degree within that world.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 24, 2012, 04:05:31 PM
What I said in my last post is yet another reason why I think point and click pc adventure games are the purest form of game art. You point, you click, it's a very simple idea that anyone who can use a mouse can participate in. You guys think that I require games to be "fun" but that's not really the case, I'm mostly repeating the mainstream idea of games. Some of my most favorite video games are adventure games like Shenmue. But people say Shenmue is boring, even though I really get a kick out of it. I didn't really warm up to it when I first played it, like the first session. But like anything I like to critique, I kept going back to see what it was about, and the more I played it more, the more I understood about it. Even though the script is bad, the voice acting is atrocious, I still had a very real, and emotional response from that game and its sequel.

Don't get things confused: I don't think games will NEVER be art. I think they have the potential. But in its current form, a game like Shenmue is considered a bad game and by extension, bad art, even though the last disc of Shenmue II is an amazingly cinematic and immersive experience.

I wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

The artist merit of video games is in their ability to allow players to become immersed in a fiction world and experience events within that world, as well as to influence events to some degree within that world.

No one is arguing that. The problem is that only so few individuals can experience it. Meanwhile, anyone can look at the Sistine Chapel and have an opinion. This is what I mean when I say games are a limited medium.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 04:16:00 PM
The problem is that only so few individuals can experience it.

Most people can't hope to fully appreciate a great movie, either. I just don't see how that's truly different from what you're talking about here. I mean, I can put a controller in my grandma's hands and she can probably flail around through a few minutes of a video game [i.e. she can, to some degree, experience the game, but lacks the ability to fully appreciate it]. Plop down The Tree of Life in front of the average American and they're asleep before the end of the first act. Same thing, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 24, 2012, 04:20:37 PM
Appreciate? Who said anything about appreciate? I specifically recall using the word experience. People can experience Tree of Life just as easily as they can The Avengers or TDKR. Show people Pi, and they'll have an opinion on it. But with a video game, they'd all have to be playing to even weigh in an opinion, because a giant part of video games are the controls, the gameplay, the player actually having weight in the world. I disagree with your Tree of Life observation and it sounds really snooty, which I'm trying to stay away from. Not to mention, not everyone has the same movie tastes. Why does it have to be something like Tree of Life and not...fucking Forrest Gump?
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 04:32:06 PM
Everyone and their grandma watched Forest Gump, just like everyone and their grandma played Angry Birds.

Not a whole lot of people watched The Tree of Life.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 04:32:43 PM
And, yes, I did just imply that Angry Birds is the Forest Gump of videogames. :patel
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 24, 2012, 04:33:32 PM
Ahahahahaha niceeeeeeeee
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 04:33:58 PM
Also, more people played Bioshock than watched The Tree of Life.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 04:35:04 PM
You can properly thank me for killing this thread the next time a Steam sale comes around. Just a suggestion, though; I've also got an extensive Amazon wishlist.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 24, 2012, 05:32:22 PM
Avengers made over 1 billion. What is your point?

Why is Tree of Life so important here?

It still doesn't take away from the fact that video games are a lot harder to experience than a film, a book, a painting, or someone doing something funny with their tool box unless you are willing to concede that something like Angry Birds is art. In which case, at that point, you might as well label Hungry Hungry Hippos, Solitary, and Monopoly art.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: naff on July 24, 2012, 05:46:59 PM
This is stupid, but I gotta weigh in. What does accessibility have do do with ART? Or have you gone off on some other tangent Himu?
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: chronovore on July 24, 2012, 05:55:15 PM
I wouldn't say that games are necessarily a new thing. But comparing games to the color photo seems a bit reaching to me. The color photo allows people to see photos in a completely different view or manner. Video games, in their present form at least, are a very specific niche. It's not like an old woman who has never played video games before just pick up a 360 controller and start playing Bioshock. She will be confused out of her wits. But anyone who isn't blind can look at a color photo and weigh an opinion in. Reflexes won't matter, muscle memory won't matter. The biggest obstacle of video games as a medium are the controls in which we control them which makes it very hard for the average person to actually experience them. Games could very well be an artistic medium in 10-30 years because I sure as hell can't tell the future, but from what I've been taught about art, what I described goes against the very core of an artistic medium: something hands on that can be experienced just to be experienced, without anything in between.
This is stupid, but I gotta weigh in. What does accessibility have do do with ART? Or have you gone off on some other tangent Himu?

(http://i.imgur.com/PgzJR.jpg)
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Himu on July 24, 2012, 06:54:30 PM
This is stupid, but I gotta weigh in. What does accessibility have do do with ART? Or have you gone off on some other tangent Himu?

Who said anything about accessibility?

Like Chrono posted, Marcel Duchamp made art objects out of ordinary, average things like shovels, hence why I brought up tools in that post above.

The point isn't accessibility ie. people can get this, the point is being hands on and observed. Anyone can go into an art museum and check out a Duchamp urinel, but far less can actually play a game and come out it being an artistic experience due to 1. controls, 2. difficulty, 3. mechanics, 4. gameplay. It's not so much about accessibility as much as it's about the fact that video games are not something just about anyone can merely observe and still fairly critique it.

What happens if you get stuck in a game? You may have to start over. When observing a painting, a piece of architecture, a film, a book, you don't need to do that because the middle man has already been cut off. Because once again, the point of games is to win. What happens if the code is bad and prone to deleting save files? Welp. Art is also a very human expression, it is something you share with others because once again - observation. You guys arguing that games are an art medium, do you tell your family and friends to go check out such and such game because it features such a great story and blah blah? If not, why not? How often do you do this with music and movies?

Then brew on my point and think about what art means as a human collective, then go play a video game, and try to understand what I'm talking about. For good measure, go to a photo gallery or art museum afterwards. Take a notepad, critique it, examine it, make every note of what it's trying to say. Then do the same thing with a video game.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on July 24, 2012, 07:41:44 PM
http://killscreendaily.com/articles/essays/ico-feature/
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Sho Nuff on July 24, 2012, 07:45:56 PM
NO.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 24, 2012, 07:46:44 PM
Jesus, this thread is still going on?

Let me settle everything once and for all.  If you enjoyed ICO or think the "story" in the MGS games is something to be celebrated, you are a pox on the hobby and should go the fuck away.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 09:00:56 PM
If video games aren't art, then why did they put video games in the Smithsonian American ART Museum? :smug
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Trent Dole on July 24, 2012, 09:11:49 PM
Yeah they are, but the people who go on about them being so are kind of annoying. Stop trying to justify how you choose to spend your time to everyone else, why should other people give a shit unless you're doing something harmful to them?
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Howard Alan Treesong on July 24, 2012, 10:28:10 PM
If video games aren't art, then why did they put video games in the Smithsonian American ART Museum? :smug

Because video games that are ART ... aren't video games. :smug
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Great Rumbler on July 24, 2012, 11:24:13 PM
If video games aren't art, then why did they put video games in the Smithsonian American ART Museum? :smug

Because video games that are ART ... aren't video games. :smug

So, Super Mario Bros. and Pac-Man aren't video games anymore? :smug
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: brawndolicious on July 24, 2012, 11:48:07 PM
What I said in my last post is yet another reason why I think point and click pc adventure games are the purest form of game art. You point, you click, it's a very simple idea that anyone who can use a mouse can participate in. You guys think that I require games to be "fun" but that's not really the case, I'm mostly repeating the mainstream idea of games. Some of my most favorite video games are adventure games like Shenmue. But people say Shenmue is boring, even though I really get a kick out of it. I didn't really warm up to it when I first played it, like the first session. But like anything I like to critique, I kept going back to see what it was about, and the more I played it more, the more I understood about it. Even though the script is bad, the voice acting is atrocious, I still had a very real, and emotional response from that game and its sequel.

You can't quantify the purity of art. Art is subjective.

Personally, I would say that Metroid Prime, a game with no dialogue and very little story, definitely feels like art. You feel like you are doing what that character is doing. You think about how you as a character in that world will move forward. Add to that the amazing aesthetic design and music to keep you even more invested. It's really not that complicated to see something as art.

Quote
No one is arguing that. The problem is that only so few individuals can experience it. Meanwhile, anyone can look at the Sistine Chapel and have an opinion. This is what I mean when I say games are a limited medium.

I've physically been to the Sistine Chapel, and I didn't get shit out of just seeing it. It wasn't until later when I read about the history of it and why things were drawn the way they were that made me understand the artistic importance of it. And even then, I couldn't give a shit about the moral messages it had in it.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: chronovore on July 25, 2012, 12:19:05 AM
If video games aren't art, then why did they put video games in the Smithsonian American ART Museum? :smug

Because video games that are ART ... aren't video games. :smug

You bastard.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Smooth Groove on July 25, 2012, 12:33:12 AM
Tree of Life isn't hard to watch because Jessica Chastain is such a great actress and is easy on the eyes too. 
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Human Snorenado on July 25, 2012, 02:58:30 AM
can anyone think of a more useless word in the english language than 'art'?  seriously.

SEGA :smug
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: DCharlieJP on July 25, 2012, 04:11:56 AM
Art: indeed - even Art Garfunkel is plain old Garfunkel out of Simon and Garfunkel. He knew the score, no need for Art.

Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Trent Dole on July 30, 2012, 07:41:34 PM
http://www.siliconera.com/2012/07/30/katamari-damacy-rolls-into-new-yorks-museum-of-modern-art/
Katamari officially art  8)
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: Timber on July 30, 2012, 07:56:14 PM
http://www.siliconera.com/2012/07/30/katamari-damacy-rolls-into-new-yorks-museum-of-modern-art/
Katamari officially art  8)

Looks like MOMA's been checking out my links.
Title: Re: Are games art? What DO gamers want? Discuss here where I won't fucking see it.
Post by: TEEEPO on July 30, 2012, 08:37:36 PM
I wouldn't say that games are necessarily a new thing. But comparing games to the color photo seems a bit reaching to me. The color photo allows people to see photos in a completely different view or manner. Video games, in their present form at least, are a very specific niche. It's not like an old woman who has never played video games before just pick up a 360 controller and start playing Bioshock. She will be confused out of her wits. But anyone who isn't blind can look at a color photo and weigh an opinion in. Reflexes won't matter, muscle memory won't matter. The biggest obstacle of video games as a medium are the controls in which we control them which makes it very hard for the average person to actually experience them. Games could very well be an artistic medium in 10-30 years because I sure as hell can't tell the future, but from what I've been taught about art, what I described goes against the very core of an artistic medium: something hands on that can be experienced just to be experienced, without anything in between.

you've entirely missed the point, and for someone who is claiming to be so renowned in the arts, i shouldn't have to educate you about the struggles the medium had to go through before becoming the dominate and most influential art form in today's society. while i wasn't directly comparing the two, alot of the same arguments used against photography becoming an accepted art form, which you can happily google yourself, from its earliest beginnings and even till this very day, are eerily similar to ones used by the harshest critics of video games becoming a legitimate art form which usually revolved around the simple fact that it was radically different from everything else which had came before it.

either way, it might not matter to those who hold a rudimentary view on art, but MOMA's inclusion of Katamari is monumental and will cause a shift in the art world just as it did when it set precedence by showing Eggleston's astounding portfolio in 1974, which allowed specifically colored photography to be something more than what you'd see in a LIFE Magazine spread or an advertisement. I do find the timing to be quite comical though as it only further proves my point, which you entirely missed.

and fyi, this isn't the first time the MOMA instutute has featured a vidogame or an interactive art piece into their gallery, though it was in one of their "lesser" but more "cutting-edge" galleries

http://momaps1.org/exhibitions/view/320/

but then again, you've already shown that you have a very confining view of video games, since you know, games can only be played on a 360 controller.