THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: Great Rumbler on June 15, 2013, 04:18:25 PM

Title: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 15, 2013, 04:18:25 PM
-No incentive to explore these vast, barren landscapes.
-No worthwhile rewards for doing anything.
-Pay money, get wins.
-No sense of accomplishment tied to anything.
-Packs of respawning enemies dotting the landscape that won't even attack you unless you get close to them.
-Easiest games ever made.
-Do the same thing for 1,000 hours.
-Side quests are awful.
-Impossible to get even the faintest hint of entertainment unless you're playing with a group of people.

Worst genre ever.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Trent Dole on June 15, 2013, 04:22:04 PM
:umad
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: fistfulofmetal on June 15, 2013, 04:23:34 PM
a miserable pile of secrets


thats a reference to something
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: archie4208 on June 15, 2013, 04:26:27 PM
Close the MMO thread
Ban Manabyte
Leper etoilet
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: magus on June 15, 2013, 04:33:26 PM
between hex,solforge,hearthstone and card hunter there is a big cluster of digital online TCG coming out to suppress all of the korean mmo that keeps getting out

too bad all we can play right now is that lame HoMM tcg :fbm
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Momo on June 15, 2013, 04:50:39 PM
While not a true MMO, PSO pretty much wrecks your list.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: thisismyusername on June 15, 2013, 04:55:41 PM
:umad

.

No but really the biggest reason to stay away from MMO's is the subscription fee and the grind. I don't mind playing them and doing the quests and stuff but no way in hell am I paying for your artificial questing.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 15, 2013, 05:07:20 PM
Guild Wars 2 = one of the best game for explorers of ALL DE TIME

Your thread is  :dead
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Smooth Groove on June 15, 2013, 05:13:04 PM
just play Age of Conan instead
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on June 15, 2013, 05:48:21 PM
Everything has its time and place.

Some of the best game experiences I've ever had are from MMO's.

Don't ever see myself playing one again seriously.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: BobFromPikeCreek on June 15, 2013, 06:32:17 PM
Zoning and instance are fucking stupid and make every MMO boring as shit and for lamer grind-whores. Only MMO I put time into was Asheron's Call, and that had a cool, open, seamless world almost 15 years ago. Instances suck the fun out of shit and sap the game of any social element.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 15, 2013, 06:34:54 PM
Guild Wars 2 = one of the best game for explorers of ALL DE TIME

Your thread is  :dead

Shut the fuck up, Donny.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 15, 2013, 06:36:50 PM
I have a strong feeling you'll be playing a next gen console MMO.

That day will be glorious.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 15, 2013, 06:38:51 PM
I have a strong feeling you'll be playing a next gen console MMO.

That day will be glorious.

Me?  It would have to be a Fallout mmo.  Which would be on pc as well, so it wouldn't count.

Are you trying to lump D3 in with mmos again?  Jesus, you're obtuse.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Sho Nuff on June 15, 2013, 06:39:58 PM
Shittiest genre, only one step above MOBA
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: chronovore on June 15, 2013, 06:44:49 PM
I'd love to love an MMO, but I don't think it can happen. I feel like an endgame is necessary for me to enjoy anything, which is probably a larger statement about how death defines all beauty in life. Or maybe I just need to know when to pack it in and start the next game.  :-*
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 15, 2013, 06:47:04 PM
Guild Wars 2 = one of the best game for explorers of ALL DE TIME

Your thread is  :dead

:zzz
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Positive Touch on June 15, 2013, 06:47:13 PM
While not a true MMO, PSO pretty much wrecks your list.

pso is a weak diablo clone for weeaboos. it is also not a mmo at all. your argument is invalid.



Shittiest genre, only one step above MOBA

mmos are for losers and freaks; mobas are for people that will spend 95% of their lives without physical human contact
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Positive Touch on June 15, 2013, 06:49:33 PM
.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 15, 2013, 06:52:18 PM
early WoW raids>just about any gaming experience you losers had in the last decade
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: chronovore on June 15, 2013, 06:52:28 PM
I'd like to note that if Class4, the State of Decay MMO sequel, actually comes out, I'll be upgrading my PC and joining the horde before you can scream "BRAAAAINSSSS...!"
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: archie4208 on June 15, 2013, 06:55:06 PM
Shittiest genre, only one step above MOBA

(http://i.imgur.com/qSa4Mog.jpg)
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 07:40:27 PM
I disagree with barren and lifeless worlds. WoW has a beautiful world full of rich lore and a cool story that continues Warcraft 3's story. I also disagree with the opinion that mmo's aren't rewarding. If they weren't, they would have become popular in the first place. What is the difference between gaining the ability to be able to ride mounts at level 30 in WoW and the difference between getting a new mount in Skyrim? I can't think of any except WoW is more rewarding.

What mmos have you played, Rumbler? For a wrpg geek to talk about mmo's not being rewarding - that's fucking hilarious.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 07:43:13 PM
Also, the easiest genre? Um.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: brob on June 15, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
never played mmo. they all look stupid and dull. except for EVE, which looks terrifying and dull.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 07:52:49 PM
Yup. What Oscar said. It is part of the reason Rumbler's complaint that mmo's aren't rewarding or have a sense of accomplishment hilarious. THOSE ARE TWO REASONS PEOPLE KEEP COMING BACK. It is the very basis of the mmo hook: to get x level to unlock y ability or quest. To do x quest to get y item. To go to x location to do new things. Mmos are addictive and manipulating because there is always a goal.

The fact they're so manipulative and based around addictions to keep you coming back is a far more damning critique of mmo's than anything else mentioned in this thread, I think.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Rufus on June 15, 2013, 07:53:14 PM
WoW didn't just continue the Warcraft III storyline, it convoluted it, killed off every major player, and singlehandedly assured that the story of Warcraft IV would make no sense.

Then again, there will probably never be a Warcraft IV (http://www.the-coli.com/images/smilies/damn.png)
Metzen gonna Metzen.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 07:56:14 PM
I like base game WoW story. Like being able to be an undead and then raid on human villages. That's perfect Warcraft fan service right there. But when you get to the expansions...lol.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Don Flamenco on June 15, 2013, 07:58:40 PM
MMOs are like Doritos Dinamitas...I have every reason to hate them because they run completely contrary to my taste, but every once in a while I turn off my brain and experience them for hours.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 15, 2013, 08:03:43 PM
What mmos have you played, Rumbler?

Old Republic, TERA, Guild Wars, Dungeons & Dragons Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Neverwinter, DC Universe Online, Free Realms, Aika Online, APB: Reloaded, Wizardry Online, Defiance, Dragon's Prophet, Fallen Earth, Jade Dynasty, Atlantica Online, Vindictus, RaiderZ, and probably a few others that I can't be bothered to remember.

All MMOs suck and have absolutely nothing that I, as a WRPG geek, care about in a game. In other words, MMO "rewards" don't interest me in the slightest.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: magus on June 15, 2013, 08:06:36 PM
What mmos have you played, Rumbler?

Old Republic, TERA, Guild Wars, Dungeons & Dragons Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Neverwinter, DC Universe Online, Free Realms, Aika Online, APB: Reloaded, Wizardry Online, Defiance, Dragon's Prophet, Fallen Earth, Jade Dynasty, Atlantica Online, Vindictus, RaiderZ, and probably a few others that I can't be bothered to remember.

All MMOs suck and have absolutely nothing that I, as a WRPG geek, care about in a game.

can we include games that aren't MMO but play like one like xenoblade and FFXII in the mix? :smug
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
I dunno. I think the rewards in mmo's are fine to me. And half of your complaints (such as combat, barren worlds;etc) can be tied to wrpgs like KOTOR, Fallout 3, even Skyrim.

The only time you ever get into a combat situation is if you get close. You listed that very thing in your rant against mmo's.

I'm gong to guess that the main thing that you get from wrpgs is story. Because I get the same enjoyment and feeling from mmo's as I do wrpgs.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 08:14:55 PM
Help me understand Rumbler!

How is this gameplay any different from your bulletpoints on why mmo's suck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00OEow8v5Y
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: brob on June 15, 2013, 08:19:39 PM
jesus rumbler, why have you played so many mmos

have some self-respect
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 15, 2013, 08:22:22 PM
whatever Esch. I killed the Lich King, feels good man. WC IV can eat a dick :pacspit

besides, Blizzard is so focused on StarCraft right now I doubt we'll see a new WarCraft anytime soon.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
Warcraft as an rts series is probably dead. :fbm
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: brob on June 15, 2013, 08:30:51 PM
why would Blizzard make a warcraft game? warcraft spun off into WOW(narrative) and DOTA(gameplay). A new Warcraft would be seen as a regression, a fantasy starcraft with MOBA-lite elements.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: magus on June 15, 2013, 08:34:20 PM
that reminds me... is this true?

Quote
#5. The Top 5 Warcraft Characters Are All the Same Person

World of Warcraft is designed to be a never-ending quest. There are 1,797 achievements in the game, and each of them requires hours, sometimes weeks to obtain. It takes such a monumental time investment that by the time you get past 1,000, your body medically replaces your sex organs with cup holders. It's why, in Mandarin, "World of Warcraft" translates to "The People's Fun and Noble Plan for Sterilize Youth."

One player not only managed to get 1,954 achievements (157 more than the maximum), but did so with five different characters: Ataxius, Ataxas, Ataxus, Ataxxus, and Ataxa. They each have an identical set of achievements because of an absurd computer game delivery system known as multiboxing. Multiboxing is where you use several computers simultaneously to trick the game into thinking you're five different people. It's similar to another trick you might try as a hardcore gamer -- convincing Pizza Hut you're an entire soccer team.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-most-insane-things-ever-accomplished-in-video-game/
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: archie4208 on June 15, 2013, 08:39:48 PM
Warcraft 4 will get made...




...in the Dota 2 map editor.  :teehee
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Trent Dole on June 15, 2013, 08:46:14 PM
MMOs are horrible life-ruining things.  While there are worse examples now, MMOs are where "design by psychologist to create a trap to milk maximum revenues" games got their start.  If you are playing one, you are addicted to a drug.
:fbm
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 15, 2013, 09:41:22 PM
Help me understand Rumbler!

How is this gameplay any different from your bulletpoints on why mmo's suck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00OEow8v5Y

By being a single-player experience designed to be played by one player character and one player character only. Monsters don't constantly respawn every two seconds, I don't have to for some herbs to respawn [because someone else picked them ten seconds ago] so that I can resolve some dull-as-dishwater quest that I didn't even bother to read because it wasn't interesting in the slightest, actually making me feel like the game is my own personal story, having interaction between my character and well-written [your mileage may vary] non-player characters, not making me pay money for cool items, allowing my character to have a real impact on the game. Lots of reasons.

By not being an MMO, if you want a simple explanation. Kotor is a bit of bad example, though, since I wouldn't really hold it up as some pinnacle of single-player RPG gaming. And the second game is better, anyway.

Listen, I made this game because I despise MMOs and I want to say so in thread where MMO lovers will not be bothered. I didn't post this thread for MMO lovers to help me seen the light. There's no light to see. I've played tons of MMOs. The MMO style is loathsome in my sight and I want nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Damian79 on June 15, 2013, 10:24:56 PM
MMO's suck because of MMO fanboys, especially WoW fanboys.  Think about it.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 15, 2013, 10:26:02 PM
MMO's suck because of MMO fanboys, especially WoW fanboys.  Think about it.

MMOs suck because they are MMOs.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 15, 2013, 10:31:10 PM
MMOs are horrible life-ruining things.  While there are worse examples now, MMOs are where "design by psychologist to create a trap to milk maximum revenues" games got their start.  If you are playing one, you are addicted to a drug.

Which is why I don't get Rumbler's take that MMOs offer no reward or accomplishment. The Skinner Box is all about offering constant rewards and a sense of accomplishment. That's the entire issue with MMOs and MMO players. They constantly reward the players and the players have no idea of what to do without there being some shiny reward at the end. WoW warped an entire generation with this stuff.

"Why should I play this?" BECAUSE IT'S FUN YOU ARSE-SUCKER.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 15, 2013, 10:34:04 PM
MMOs are horrible life-ruining things.  While there are worse examples now, MMOs are where "design by psychologist to create a trap to milk maximum revenues" games got their start.  If you are playing one, you are addicted to a drug.

Which is why I don't get Rumbler's take that MMOs offer no reward or accomplishment. The Skinner Box is all about offering constant rewards and a sense of accomplishment. That's the entire issue with MMOs and MMO players. They constantly reward the players and the players have no idea of what to do without there being some shiny reward at the end. WoW warped an entire generation with this stuff.

"Why should I play this?" BECAUSE IT'S FUN YOU ARSE-SUCKER.

I think you're confusing "fun" with "shit" but given your history that's entirely understandable.

Also, :bow Rumbler :bow2 spitting HOT TROOF up in hurr
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 15, 2013, 10:35:55 PM
PD, I think you put mmos on a pedestal because it was some of your formative gaming experience.  Like, I gave D3 shit tons of passes for D2 nostalgia... it wasn't a BAD game per se (and after everything's said and done might be a really good one) but it was no LoD.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Damian79 on June 15, 2013, 10:41:08 PM
MMO's suck because of MMO fanboys, especially WoW fanboys.  Think about it.

MMOs suck because they are MMOs.

So you dont think the whole "they should make it exactly like wow" thing a detriment to mmos and their design?  Would you hate a MMO game with the design principles of Xenoblade Chronicles for example?  I wouldnt.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 10:42:34 PM
Rumbler you assume that because I don't understand your hate for mmo's with your reasons listed that I'm an mmo lover. You would be incorrect. I don't play mmo's because I don't NEED to. Wrpgs offer me everything I like about mmo's (large expansive worlds, lots of quests, lots of loot) without the bullshit. The last mmo I played was WoW - YEARS ago. Clearly I'm not an mmo lover and given that you've played more mmo's than seemingly everyone in this thread combined I'm even more confused.

That said your reply on why you'd like KOTOR (:yuck) but don't like mmo's is enough to get me on the mmo hate train.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Damian79 on June 15, 2013, 10:59:03 PM
^I agree with Oscar.  An MMO doesnt need to go forever.  There should really be an end point.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Trent Dole on June 15, 2013, 11:01:18 PM
There is. It's called the servers going offline.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 15, 2013, 11:04:44 PM
That's a pretty bad ending. I think I'll stick with games that end, thanks.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 15, 2013, 11:16:26 PM
Actually I think one of WoW's biggest problems recently has been that it did provide an "end" for many hardcore players - the death of the Lich King/Arthas. There are some big bads left for them to mine, but the problem is none of them really compare to Arthas in most people's eyes. Many players, regardless of whether they were hardcore raiders or not, spent years playing with a general anticipation of defeating him.

The last two expansions have felt quite trivial when compared to WOTLK and TBC. Deathwing was supposed to be a "big" event but it kind of came and went
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Damian79 on June 15, 2013, 11:22:21 PM
SMFH(shake my fucking head)
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 15, 2013, 11:27:45 PM
MMOs are horrible life-ruining things.  While there are worse examples now, MMOs are where "design by psychologist to create a trap to milk maximum revenues" games got their start.  If you are playing one, you are addicted to a drug.

Which is why I don't get Rumbler's take that MMOs offer no reward or accomplishment. The Skinner Box is all about offering constant rewards and a sense of accomplishment. That's the entire issue with MMOs and MMO players. They constantly reward the players and the players have no idea of what to do without there being some shiny reward at the end. WoW warped an entire generation with this stuff.

"Why should I play this?" BECAUSE IT'S FUN YOU ARSE-SUCKER.

I think you're confusing "fun" with "shit" but given your history that's entirely understandable.

Also, :bow Rumbler :bow2 spitting HOT TROOF up in hurr

I was talking about MMO players not you but OKAY

Also, you'll end up in some game like Destiny. muwhaha
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 15, 2013, 11:31:46 PM
MMOs have a fundamental problem.  A well-designed game with few exceptions ends at some point.  A profitable MMO should never end.  Therefore, an MMO is always going to be designed to keep stringing the player along, never providing a satisfying conclusion.  It's like edging forever without release.  Feels kind of awesome in the short term, but in the long term you just have blue balls and bitterness.

Many successful games offer no end. People played GTA3 for hours on end with no intent to finish the story. Animal Crossing has no end to it. Competitive games have no end to them.

There's really nothing inherently wrong with MMOs. There's been bad behavior manipulation in the genre due to the monetization, but there is nothing inherently diseased about a persistent virtual world filled with activities and other players.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: chronovore on June 15, 2013, 11:52:20 PM
Help me understand Rumbler!

How is this gameplay any different from your bulletpoints on why mmo's suck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00OEow8v5Y

It depends on how you define gameplay. In my case, gameplay requires an end state. At some point it can be finished. KOTOR can be finished, which makes it inherently different than an MMO.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Olivia Wilde Homo on June 16, 2013, 12:01:12 AM
I had a friend who dropped out of school to play more Everquest.  He thought he'd be raking in thousands of dollars a month because he once sold a character for a few hundred dollars.

He now kills bugs for a living.

That is my only experience with an MMO.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 16, 2013, 12:09:01 AM
Clearly I'm not an mmo lover and given that you've played more mmo's than seemingly everyone in this thread combined I'm even more confused.

It's not like I put hundreds of hours into those MMOs, by the way. I just downloaded them because I was bored and they were free, played for a few hours, and then deleted them because I quickly remembered why I hate MMOs.

MMOs have a fundamental problem.  A well-designed game with few exceptions ends at some point.  A profitable MMO should never end.  Therefore, an MMO is always going to be designed to keep stringing the player along, never providing a satisfying conclusion.  It's like edging forever without release.  Feels kind of awesome in the short term, but in the long term you just have blue balls and bitterness.

This is something that I didn't mention in the OP, but should have. I like the satisfaction of getting to the conclusion of a story, or even at least knowing that there is a conclusion waiting for me.

Not that the conclusion is everything. I really enjoy games like Simcity and The Sims, which have no end-game at all either, but those games don't have a lot of the other problems I have with MMOs.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Don Flamenco on June 16, 2013, 12:14:00 AM
I had a friend who dropped out of school to play more Everquest.  He thought he'd be raking in thousands of dollars a month because he once sold a character for a few hundred dollars.

He now kills bugs for a living.

That is my only experience with an MMO.


so he still plays MMOs for a living, but in the real world.  His life is like the first 10 quests in any MMO over and over again. 
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Himu on June 16, 2013, 12:28:51 AM
Help me understand Rumbler!

How is this gameplay any different from your bulletpoints on why mmo's suck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00OEow8v5Y

It depends on how you define gameplay. In my case, gameplay requires an end state. At some point it can be finished. KOTOR can be finished, which makes it inherently different than an MMO.

Yeah, Oscar brought this up and I totally agree with it. I can understand that. Rumbler offered a very succinct post on why he'd like KOTOR despite the similarities to mmo's.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 16, 2013, 12:50:09 AM
I keep trying different MMOs, thinking that maybe one of them will be really good. After all, RPGs are my favorite genre by a good stretch, but...MMOs fail me each and every time. No matter how hard I try, I just can't find in MMOs the things that I enjoy so much about single-player RPGs. It's just not there.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: naff on June 16, 2013, 12:55:44 AM
I've never played one for more than an hour tho I like the idea of a persistent online world I have never seen anything that looks appealing game play wise. I'm pretty interested in WC Star Citizen, but I have no idea how it will compare to a traditional mmo
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2013, 12:57:53 AM
GTA3 has an end state, come on.  Don't be disingenuous.  Yeah, you can fuck around in it and a lot of people only do that, but the game is designed with a proper ending.  Animal Crossing also has an ending.  At some point, you will collect everything, and then it's done, there's literally nothing left to do.  Competitive games end when each match ends.  That's the start, beginning, and end.

MMOs are different.  They're endlessly appended to, and developers work with that in mind.  There's rarely a big payoff, because if they do that, people will stop playing, and that runs contrary to what a successful MMO is intended to do.  You mention the monetization is a problem, but monetization is intrinsic to the design of these games.  It's like saying there's nothing wrong with F2P models on iPhone games or w/e.  The monetization is built in, the game is designed around it, and there's no escaping that short of going "fuck it, we don't want to make as much money as we can", which is pretty unlikely.

You can finish the personal story in Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR. I have defeated the big bad dragon in GW2 and I'm still playing. The game does continue on past a traditional 'end point' with more things to do. Same as a game like GTA3 or even Skyrim. People continue on in Animal Crossing after having paid off their house debt. What these games reveal is that players create their own goals and things to do in a virtual little world and community.

Also, competitive gaming doesn't ever end. The match ending isn't really the end of those sorts of games. It's all about continual challenge and self-improvement. It's like arguing you finished Ridge Racer because you beat the first track.

Yes, MMOs continue to grow, but that's not a bad thing. They do need to make money to support this, but there are MMOs that haven't monetized in such a terrible way as to accomplish this.

Basically, there's a lot of outdated and cynical view of MMOs out there. They become a scapegoat for some people, but there are some really fine MMOs that are good games regardless of the genre they are in. Rumbler said he played Vindictus. The combat in Vindictus shits on most RPGs out there. Fights can be intense and interesting. It's silly to ignore that because you think 'UGH MMOS".
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2013, 01:53:54 AM
What is your point besides "there is no big ending to these games."
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Damian79 on June 16, 2013, 01:58:33 AM
Maybe "ending" isnt the word.  "Closure" might be a better word.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2013, 02:03:20 AM
Ah. Well there's some closure in some of them. I want to try Secret World because the story stuff in that is pretty interesting. The genre is more episodic in nature.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2013, 04:55:18 AM
Don't think I agree with that. MMOs tend to get better with time. Almost any MMO is at its worst on launch. They are games that keep adding things to do and refinement of what they have to do.  Certain parts of the game can get old or tired, but the game itself grows so much that whenever you bore of one thing you move on to the next thing.

An important aspect here is why people play MMOs. Outside of the manipulative bullshit, the thing that draws people back to the games is the virtual world and community. Those things aren't subject to wearing themselves thin over time. Stories may drag, characters may drag, and features may become outdated or tired, but a world is something that always remains.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on June 16, 2013, 04:57:26 AM
early WoW raids>just about any gaming experience you losers had in the last decade

This should be quoted again.

People really don't know what kind of experience they have missed.

Vanilla WoW and maybe TBC are such a rare and near perfect phenomena that I don't think they will ever be recreated again.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: magus on June 16, 2013, 06:29:20 AM
wouldn't getting your character to max level and kill the strongest monster there is what would be considered the end state for a mmo?

i mean i tought the point of many WoW expansion was to raise the level cap
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on June 16, 2013, 06:34:23 AM
The strongest monsters are in raids.

Plus that's where you get the best gear, or used to at least. This gear is needed to progress to the next big raid.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 16, 2013, 06:51:56 AM
Etoilet, are you incapable of NOT defending Guild Wars?  I mean, at this point I don't even bother defending D3 any more...
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 16, 2013, 06:57:07 AM
Diablo 3 and I are just seeing different people right now. 
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 16, 2013, 07:21:31 AM
That was implied  :-\
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2013, 07:39:18 AM
Etoilet, are you incapable of NOT defending Guild Wars?  I mean, at this point I don't even bother defending D3 any more...

 I'm more or less challenging the idea that MMORPGs are bad by design. It's a cynical and ignorant viewpoint.

Though just for your benefit, the difference between D3 and GW2 is that people actually love GW2.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: magus on June 16, 2013, 07:42:33 AM
magoose - yes, until they append more. Which they always do.

eeeehhhh but if you are enjoying the game what's wrong with that? or you could just take your marble at home and be done with it if you start getting bored...

and besides you say it like as soon as someone reach max level they pop out new content,admitely i don't know much shit but didn't it take quite a while before catacylsm got released?

Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 16, 2013, 08:42:21 AM
Etoilet, are you incapable of NOT defending Guild Wars?  I mean, at this point I don't even bother defending D3 any more...

 I'm more or less challenging the idea that MMORPGs are bad by design. It's a cynical and ignorant viewpoint.

Though just for your benefit, the difference between D3 and GW2 is that people actually love GW2.

From my exposure to GW2 fans, they seem to be the sort of people who will uncritically embrace a game that has rabbit eared furry shitthings

I also firmly agree with the notion that mmos are not only inherently poorly designed, but would go one step further and call them barely a game
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 16, 2013, 08:43:15 AM
All I'm saying, magoose, is that it's a very sloppy way of designing a game that virtually ensures a lack of satisfying closure, and that it's endemic to the genre.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun.

:teehee
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: magus on June 16, 2013, 09:06:44 AM
All I'm saying, magoose, is that it's a very sloppy way of designing a game that virtually ensures a lack of satisfying closure, and that it's endemic to the genre.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun.

fair enough i guess

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:smug
[close]
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 16, 2013, 09:10:33 AM
I'm more or less challenging the idea that MMORPGs are bad by design. It's a cynical and ignorant viewpoint.

I've played 'em all, baby, and they ain't for me.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: chronovore on June 16, 2013, 09:23:11 AM
I had a friend who dropped out of school to play more Everquest.  He thought he'd be raking in thousands of dollars a month because he once sold a character for a few hundred dollars.

He now kills bugs for a living.

That is my only experience with an MMO.


so he still plays MMOs for a living, but in the real world.  His life is like the first 10 quests in any MMO over and over again.

:rofl
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Freyj on June 16, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
This is what MMOs are, it isn't what they were.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Don Flamenco on June 16, 2013, 12:21:54 PM
I dunno, i'd rather play some MMO over lots of different games.  Like a 80 hour Dragon Quest game vs. 80 hours in MMO, both would suck shit, but I'd take the MMO.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Great Rumbler on June 16, 2013, 12:23:53 PM
This is what MMOs are, it isn't what they were.

And your point is...?
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Freyj on June 16, 2013, 02:58:05 PM
This is what MMOs are, it isn't what they were.

And your point is...?

That the genre itself isn't inherently flawed, but the last 4 odd years of it have been.

You might as well say that FPS is a shit genre due to the overwhelming number of by the numbers corridor shooters that have littered the market in recent years.

The unfortunate part is that you can't really rely on indies to save the MMO genre.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: brob on June 16, 2013, 03:11:54 PM
Speaking of indie mmos... Did LOVE come out already?
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 16, 2013, 03:15:07 PM
The unsatisfying lack of closure doesn't really exist so much with P2P dying off. Without the financial investment and the brain's need to justify that payment, people can do things they want to, take breaks when they want to, and play the game to their own point of satisfaction.

It's just rather silly to say one of the genre's strengths is a major flaw. What Segata sees as 'lack of closure", I see as continued growth.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Rufus on June 16, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
Speaking of indie mmos... Did LOVE come out already?
Unless you're joking... It both came out and (predictably) failed and was shut down a while ago. Love is over.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Yeti on June 16, 2013, 07:28:00 PM
MMOs are kind of fun at the start when you're hopping through quests left and right, different players joining in and dropping out of your play experience. But then you reach a point where you hit the grind. And I hate grinding in most single player games, but in MMOs their grinds are on steroids. It becomes a long, tedious chore to make increasingly incremental amounts of progress. By this point the developer is hoping you feel that you've invested so much time and effort (and money!) into the game that you just can't bring yourself to abandon it.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Human Snorenado on June 16, 2013, 07:31:46 PM
I actually like grinding, I just hate grinding for the sake of grinding.  I also hate games that make me play with other people or let you solve problems or progress through non-violent means.  I guess I'm the Walter Sobchek of gaming.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: chronovore on June 17, 2013, 03:06:26 AM
I'd expect that what they actually hope will keep players involved is the community. I mean, maybe the change in focus to single-player raids reflects a change in the target players, but the larger picture my MMO friends gave me was that guilds and raiding were essentially social activities.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on June 17, 2013, 03:10:01 AM
This is true, also the reason why I can't ever play a game like this where I am in life. Raiding is something you have to commit to, like sports. Set times etc.

No way I would want to schedule that in.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: The Sceneman on June 17, 2013, 07:39:16 AM

mmos are for losers and freaks; mobas are for people that will spend 95% of their lives without physical human contact

I'm pretty sure mobas are the root of all evil. My mums boyfriends son wont even come to the dinner table when a delicious meal has been served, as he's too busy playing League of Legends. I tried talking to him about gaming and thats the only game hes played THIS YEAR. Yeah, that shit is fucked up. Your gaming diet needs to be varied
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: The Sceneman on June 17, 2013, 07:43:40 AM
This is true, also the reason why I can't ever play a game like this where I am in life. Raiding is something you have to commit to, like sports. Set times etc.

No way I would want to schedule that in.

Closest thing I've done to a raid is coordinating the tricky Liars Dice achievement in Red Dead Redemption. Had to get up at 7am and take notes of 5 others' gameplay. Was great to knock the cheev out, after 5 hours trying to get it legit, but not something I'd want to do again.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: archie4208 on June 17, 2013, 08:51:42 AM
I was in a top Everquest guild back in the day.  It eventually turned into a job.  I never want to do that shit again, especially since I almost flunked some classes because of my addiction.


mmos are for losers and freaks; mobas are for people that will spend 95% of their lives without physical human contact

I'm pretty sure mobas are the root of all evil. My mums boyfriends son wont even come to the dinner table when a delicious meal has been served, as he's too busy playing League of Legends. I tried talking to him about gaming and thats the only game hes played THIS YEAR. Yeah, that shit is fucked up. Your gaming diet needs to be varied

At least Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides have defined beginnings and ends and don't take 5 hours to finish one game.

I can play 1-3 games of Dota a day and be perfectly content with that.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Barry Egan on June 17, 2013, 09:00:00 AM
Ultima Online was a revelation to me in Middle School.  havent been compelled to play an MMO since.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 17, 2013, 06:33:18 PM
I sense that MOBAs are where a lot of the terrible parts of the WoW/MMO community moved on to. There's like a whole generation of gamers that got sucked into one game and had that game define what gaming is about. These people kind of worry me for they have no real concept of what fun is about or hold no regard for fun when it comes to gaming. Their standards are defined by one or two games, and they struggle mightily with new concepts. Vidya is a status symbol for them within an equally minded set of peoples. This creates hyper-competitive conservative, libertopian types of folk who while possessive of their accomplishments are also obsessed with doing the least amount of work for the greatest reward. There are some really busted mentalities in the communities. If you tried to get them to define the difference between casual and hardcore, you quickly begin to realize that hardcore means socially unhealthy play habits.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Fragamemnon on June 18, 2013, 10:09:14 AM
I've GM'd raiding and hardcore PvP guilds (fear my people management skills!) spanning multiple games on and off over the past decade plus. What I've found-having interacted with people that are invested in MMOs and those that really don't like them (such as Rumbler and the majority of GAF) is that what the MMO player is looking for vs. what the kind of gamer on this thread are looking for are actually very different.

The biggest difference is that the hardcore MMO player wants to be skill tested in teamwork and execution, the single-player / casually online gamer just wants a steady stream of fresh and new experiences to enjoy. The hardcore MMO player wants be have some casual social interaction-sort of at the level you might find casually talking to people at a larger party, for example-while working towards their common goals. The single-player / causally online gamer wants to play with real life friends on occasion and sometimes play a set of games solo. The hardcore MMO player seeks excellence in achievement and recognition of that from in-game peers, the other type of gamer doesn't care about that at all.

It's just a completely different mindset. People like Rumbler here can play the games, but they aren't looking for the social hooks and constructs that make the game long-lasting and a "lifestyle" game for the players who play it. If you just play a MMO to strip mine content you will eventually come away disappointed. It is the game's social structure and all of the unexpected things that can come out of a multiplayer game that are the real hook-not the Skinner Box mechanics. That's why MOBAs, very much a cousin of the MMO in a lot of ways moreso than a relative of the online FPS, are so soul-sucking. People get into them and want to do their best, they want to get better and better and push themselves so that they can get up that ladder or get that recognition from the people they play with. That's the hook for those games as well.

Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Rufus on June 18, 2013, 10:29:47 AM
That pretty much describes every streamer I've seen play MOBAs, MMOs and ARPGs.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 18, 2013, 10:46:24 AM
Maybe "ending" isnt the word.  "Closure" might be a better word.

There has been closure in WoW, as I said earlier.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Don Flamenco on June 18, 2013, 11:16:22 AM
That reminds me of when I used to be a mental health worker and one of my clients with work expectations came in and wanted them deferred because he was a guild leader in WoW. 

God damn we had a good laugh about that for a while around the office.


what was his gaf username?
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Phoenix Dark on June 18, 2013, 11:41:20 AM
Yes.  And it was to the detriment of the game's hook, as you also mentioned.

Yes. I of course am speaking from the perspective of a former hardcore raider, although as I said even non-raiders viewed Arthas the same way. There are more causal players who still enjoy fishing, pvp, pet battles, and all that other shit but even they seem fed up (given the sub exile).

Ultimately I think the other aspects of WoW allow players to determine when they have accomplished enough or "won" on their terms. Not only am I satisfied having defeated Arthas, I feel like there's nothing else for me to prove skill-wise; I'm a great tank and did just about everything a tank can do. Every now and then I get the urge to play, and I know I'll go back eventually, but it won't be for any meaningful amount of time. I'll check and see if any friends still play, figure out the top guilds now, check the auction house...shit like that.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: magus on June 18, 2013, 12:06:00 PM
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/690/591u.jpg)
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8523/a0gr.jpg)

waiting simulator 2013
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on June 18, 2013, 12:49:12 PM
Great post from frag.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Diunx on June 18, 2013, 02:37:55 PM
Fantastic thread GR!
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: headwalk on June 18, 2013, 05:00:13 PM
All I'm saying, magoose, is that it's a very sloppy way of designing a game that virtually ensures a lack of satisfying closure, and that it's endemic to the genre.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun.

lack of satisfying closure is essentially endemic to video games at this point. they're either competitive experiences where everyone just gives up once they reach their glass ceiling, or they have their spluttering franchised corpse dragged along by arbitrary sequels and season pass obligations until everyone on the development team kills themselves.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: Positive Touch on June 18, 2013, 05:41:24 PM
words

*thinks of who around here likes to play mmos

 :ohhh makes perfect sense!
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: etiolate on June 18, 2013, 07:16:51 PM
It's not as binary as Frag describes. I know people who played WoW for thousands of hours who barely touched things like raiding or competitive PVP. It's just that the MMO/MOBA player that Frag describes is so insular a community that they don't realize there's anyone or any concept outside of themselves within the game.
Title: Re: He-Man MMO Haters Club [no gurlz aloud]
Post by: brob on June 18, 2013, 07:20:02 PM
everybody sucking frag's dick but nobody bothered to like his post. smh.