THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: Eschaton on April 24, 2015, 11:10:06 PM

Title: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: Eschaton on April 24, 2015, 11:10:06 PM
(http://i.minus.com/iIZLGPPaVk8ty.gif)
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: toku on April 24, 2015, 11:16:27 PM
Yeah, everyones got all these opinions and it's just hilarious to me. It's another side of patreon/yt commentator culture to me.

(http://i.imgur.com/8QQdaFc.gif)
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: archie4208 on April 24, 2015, 11:22:39 PM
Not a bad idea in theory (if it's a big TC mod like Long War), but Valve fucked up its implementation hardcore.

I would have implemented a donation system ala Patreon that lets users download the mods for free but they can tip the modders a few bucks if they wish. 
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: benjipwns on April 24, 2015, 11:23:33 PM
Considering how much they do for us here on The Bore, I don't see why not.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: pilonv1 on April 24, 2015, 11:31:43 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDZE9v7WMAEDT-D.png:large)
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: toku on April 24, 2015, 11:38:32 PM
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/cfabb96f0f6e4c7bc6143a8f6225495d/tumblr_inline_nnbrxnqCu21ra1x9g_250.png)
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/741ef2b1c8e75befb2278af8ccf8ca81/tumblr_inline_nnbrxsZmKv1ra1x9g_500.png)
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 25, 2015, 01:58:41 AM
Quote from: archie4208 on April 24, 2015, 11:22:39 PM
Not a bad idea in theory (if it's a big TC mod like Long War), but Valve fucked up its implementation hardcore.

I would have implemented a donation system ala Patreon that lets users download the mods for free but they can tip the modders a few bucks if they wish.

This is how I would have wanted things to go down. A more formalized and upfront donation system. Or an ad supported alternative where things could remain free.

I don't mind paying for shit that a lot of people had to put a lot of effort into. Stuff like the DLC size quest modes. Or large game overhauls. But if anything can potentially be charged for as mod, even interface stuff or just smallish cool stuff that's a nightmare.


http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=430955234
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=431049259&searchtext=

 :mynicca
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: I'm a Puppy! on April 25, 2015, 02:36:34 AM
Paying for mods? I don't even pay for pc games. :hitler
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: recursivelyenumerable on April 25, 2015, 02:52:57 AM
I am all for paid everything. fuck you, pay me.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: studyguy on April 25, 2015, 02:56:10 AM
Quote from: pilonv1 on April 24, 2015, 11:31:43 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDZE9v7WMAEDT-D.png:large)

How high resolution are we talking here tho
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: seagrams hotsauce on April 25, 2015, 03:57:37 AM
The amount of people giving Skyrim a thumbs down on steam who have 800-1200 hours logged is hilarious. Gamers are trash humans and should be put down.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Great Rumbler on April 25, 2015, 09:39:03 AM
Paying for things that used to be free is annoying, sure, but the amount of bitter tears being shed and hands being wrung by people who've already logged several years of game time into Skyrim is beyond embarrassing.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Eel O'Brian on April 25, 2015, 10:02:50 AM
I'll definitely pay a couple bucks for skeleton key and computer terminal hacker mods for the next Fallout/ES. Those are the first mods I seek out and install for Bethesda games. Fuck those lockpicking and hacking minigames. That shit is only fun the first couple of times you do it. $2 is well worth avoiding that misery.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: fizzel on April 25, 2015, 10:24:42 AM
I console commanded my way through that shit. From what i recall it's just "hover mouse over object, type unlock". That and infinite carry weight.

It's also why i'll never play the dirt person versions of those games.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Take My Breh Away on April 25, 2015, 10:26:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDyXIXyAZq0

Obligatory these days

Also Valve are hella dumb for thinking this would have no backlash at all.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: fizzel on April 25, 2015, 10:42:29 AM
Nexus is probably shitting itself. It'll be a year, maybe two before publishers start DMCA'ing their asses.

And modders are distinguished mentally-challenged; almost entirely psychotic in thinking they're special snowflakes. They'll all end up charging for their shit eventually; lest they be seen as bottom tier/unpaid scrubs by their peers.

We'll have to pay to fix bethesderps most egregious bugs and terrible design decisions... Well, i won't, i'll just download mod packs off KAT.  :heh
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 25, 2015, 11:33:26 AM
Any BRC mods for Skyrim? If you know what I mean.

:hitler
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: brob on April 25, 2015, 11:52:20 AM
valve keep innovating their skimming game, never making HL3 :rejoice

Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: thisismyusername on April 25, 2015, 01:18:12 PM
Quote from: archie4208 on April 24, 2015, 11:22:39 PM
Not a bad idea in theory (if it's a big TC mod like Long War), but Valve fucked up its implementation hardcore.

I would have implemented a donation system ala Patreon that lets users download the mods for free but they can tip the modders a few bucks if they wish.

I pretty much agree with this. If the mod is good and you want to support the modder: Well, what is the big deal? The problem is they are taking a cut of the "profit" while the modder is twisting in the wind along with a whole bunch of legal issues.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Freyj on April 25, 2015, 01:19:00 PM
Well, Steam had to adapt to keep people buying shit during Sales somehow.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Eel O'Brian on April 25, 2015, 01:43:28 PM
People learning there ain't no Santa Gabe after all  :aweshum
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Positive Touch on April 25, 2015, 02:17:43 PM
anything to fuck with gamers ridiculous sense of entitlement is a positive in my book
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Joe Molotov on April 25, 2015, 02:54:09 PM
Quote from: Eel O'Brian on April 25, 2015, 01:43:28 PM
People learning there ain't no Santa Gabe after all  :aweshum

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? "No," says the man in Washington, "it belongs to the poor." "No," says the man in the Vatican, "it belongs to God." "No," says the man in Moscow, "it belongs to everyone." I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...Steam.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 25, 2015, 03:00:45 PM
I don't think this is a simply a gamer's entitlement issue. Are there gamers who will be annoying in that manner? Of course. But every issue is like that.

I legit think its a poor implementation by Valve on a subject that requires a bit of nuance. There were a lot of ways to potentially go about this. And I think Valve choose probably the worst way to do it and created a situation that will create problems on both sides for the users and the creators.

But then I'm not one of those guys who always put Valve on a pedestal. 
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Dickie Dee on April 25, 2015, 05:32:59 PM
Yup, lots of ways the man-hours that go into mods could've been legitimized and monetized and still kept good with sniveling gamer culture. Valve fucked up in a bunch of ways, simple as that.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 25, 2015, 05:42:40 PM
I don't understand why they did it with Skyrim. A game that is approaching 4 years old and already has a culture and community that had established its norms. And then you come in and upset the whole thing by half assing it. There are tons of mods that literally depend on each other or modders who have taken bits from other people's mods so its all real murky about what belongs to whom. It's real fucked up. And it was alright when it was fucked up when it was just a community where nobody was making real money but its pretty much impossible to untangle the knot at this stage.

Whether I think this particular system is the best way to do it or not ( I don't), the more logical way if you were going this route would have been to start with the next bethesda game and go from the beginning so everybody knew from jump at least how things were gonna be. That way all the incestous nature of the skyrim mod scene would be different from the start of the scene.

They still would have gotten a shitload of flak but at least it would have been upfront.

edit: Not to mention there have always been tons of illegal mods on the steam workshop for every game that Valve doesn't police including their own.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=7891
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=254157532

That's not legal even if its free. And anybody could find hundreds of these mods for all kinds of games on steam.

But once again its okay when its a niche thing in the world of modding. But if you are selling stuff then Valve is complicit in all this content and responsible for it.

So is this the road we are going down?
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: benjipwns on April 25, 2015, 05:53:45 PM
I'd imagine Bethesda had a rather significant say in the matter.

Contrast how Valve treats everything else in the workshop vs. how they treat stuff for TF2 and so on and so on.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: doctavius bonbon on April 25, 2015, 05:55:02 PM
Yeah, that's pretty much the crux of the issue. They should have announced it for upcoming games with mod support instead dropping the news on an existing community. Now dudes are getting shit on for simply for thinking "hmm, perhaps the hundreds of hours of work I've put into modding this game have some monetary value", like the SkyUI dudes (despite keeping the current and previous versions free for compatibility reasons).
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 25, 2015, 06:02:09 PM
Quote from: benjipwns on April 25, 2015, 05:53:45 PM
I'd imagine Bethesda had a rather significant say in the matter.

Oh don't get me wrong. They are equally if not more to blame. I just think its half-assed all the way around from all angles.

Which is a different argument than whether mod creators should be compensated within this specific structure. If they want to be they have every right. It just needs to be in a much better framework than what happened with skyrim.

This is partly one of those issues where things are changing and people will just have to accept it but I just don't think this was the only path forward. I just think it was on the face of it, the easiest, so everybody jumped with it instead of actually being smart about what is really long term the best thing. I think skyrim modding is different than making hats in Team Fortress or skins in dota but they are treating it like the same usage case.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Take My Breh Away on April 25, 2015, 06:08:38 PM
Gabe Newell doing an "Impromptu" (Damage control) AMA on reddit at the moment

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/

Sucks he's got some eye problems but Valve should have been on this immediately instead of letting it fester for two days.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Eel O'Brian on April 25, 2015, 06:42:45 PM
Quote from: Stoney Mason on April 25, 2015, 05:42:40 PM
I don't understand why they did it with Skyrim.

I do. They knew there'd be controversy, so they're springing it early and letting it happen now with an older, well-modded game so that when the next game* hits the paid mod system's already in place and the wailing/gnashing of teeth has long subsided.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
*Fallout 4's coming this holiday (or early, early next year). As soon as Bethesda announced their E3 conference/presentation/whatever I knew it would be. I know a lot of people don't think it will, but Dishonored isn't a big enough game to build a conference around (sorry, Dishonored fans). I don't really think Doom holds that kind of cache anymore, either. I doubt they'd spend the money to put together a staged media presentation for a FO4 that's a year (or even two) out, when they could save the cash and do that by riding along with MS/Sony during those conferences. I'd be willing to bet the big drop is FO4 for this year (or again, very early next year). And you'll be paying for those mods right out of the gate!
[close]
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: toku on April 25, 2015, 06:59:18 PM
I don't think anyone is gonna disagree with you. It's absolutely gonna be Fallout 4. Everyone from casuals to hardcore want it. Fallout is huge on consoles as well.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Take My Breh Away on April 25, 2015, 07:51:30 PM
That AMA in a nutshell

(http://i.imgur.com/i0nckGP.jpg)

It's like the industry at large didn't learn anything from Adam Orth in 2013

Also :sabu

(http://i.imgur.com/OyxImfx.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/77bJKBF.png)
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 26, 2015, 12:17:43 AM
Welcome to the app store.

(http://i.imgur.com/6y6XF2n.png)
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: thisismyusername on April 26, 2015, 12:23:40 AM
Quote from: Stoney Mason on April 26, 2015, 12:17:43 AM
Welcome to the app store.

...So, has anyone found a way to take those annoying pop-ups out and BAM suddenly free-mod like it was before?
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 26, 2015, 12:28:35 AM
Quote from: thisismyusername on April 26, 2015, 12:23:40 AM
Quote from: Stoney Mason on April 26, 2015, 12:17:43 AM
Welcome to the app store.

...So, has anyone found a way to take those annoying pop-ups out and BAM suddenly free-mod like it was before?

The thing is, it really is like the app store. Midas Magic wasn't even the current popular spell mod. It's apocolpyse magic which is this one.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/16225/?

Midas Magic had fallen out of favor because it hadn't been updated. But now that there is an opportunity for money, he is updating.

Once again not begrudging the guy. But you would think people would have learned from the shitty business practices of the last 5 years and not let it bring out the worst in them.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: demi on April 26, 2015, 12:34:22 AM
PIRATING MODS NOW LMAO
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: pilonv1 on April 26, 2015, 12:38:02 AM
Pop ups in mods, are you serious?
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Eel O'Brian on April 26, 2015, 02:06:34 AM
:lol that's one of my installed mods, hope deleting that shit doesn't bugfuck my game
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: eleuin on April 26, 2015, 03:55:58 AM
Thankfully its only a 4% chance per cast   :lol
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: brob on April 26, 2015, 08:38:53 AM
pop-up ads in skyrim sounds like someone trying to make a parody of how smart phones will ruin gaming. I bet there's a garbage flash animation on youtube from a few years ago predicting this exactly. :lol
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Yeti on April 27, 2015, 12:53:02 PM
Welcome to the dirt huts PC master race. :smug
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Kara on April 27, 2015, 01:15:38 PM
What I love about the 25% handwringing is that gamers don't give a shit about how brutally exploited (even by surplus value standards) programmers are on blockbuster games.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: archie4208 on April 27, 2015, 07:08:45 PM
http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

It's over everyone go home
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 27, 2015, 07:21:19 PM
Fucking idiots!

Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Sho Nuff on April 27, 2015, 07:22:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09s-c2JVI40
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 27, 2015, 07:30:40 PM
I'm glad the backlash was so great that Valve and Bethesda both got a taste of internet rage.

They should set up a system where donations are heavily encouraged or even rethink an ad based system where creators can be rewarded. But the system they implemented was the worst case with zero thought.

When you download a mod from nexus now, there is a little message that encourages you to donate and even has a little donation button right there to do it. I'm glad that's been added and other things can be done but not what they did.

Now curious to see if they just lay in wait and reintroduce the same system for the next elder scrolls/fallout game with small tweaks and call it something else.
Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: Rufus on April 27, 2015, 07:34:21 PM
"We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating."

No shit.
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: Joe Molotov on April 27, 2015, 08:01:26 PM
Contributing to the self-imposed slavery of modder plebs to the bourgeoisie  publishers.  :rejoice
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: Great Rumbler on April 27, 2015, 08:28:25 PM
Our long national nightmare is finally over.
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: toku on April 27, 2015, 08:55:25 PM
Valve showing weakness. All according to keiaku.
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: doctavius bonbon on April 27, 2015, 09:02:30 PM
see you in fallout 4
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: studyguy on April 27, 2015, 09:24:30 PM
It's about ethics in Skyrim big dick mods
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: benjipwns on April 27, 2015, 09:31:29 PM
Quote
We've done this because it's clear we didn't understand exactly what we were doing.
wait...I...Gaben...
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: Positive Touch on April 27, 2015, 10:12:05 PM
holy shit that was fast
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: Atramental on April 27, 2015, 11:22:20 PM
Eh... LTTP but whatever:
(http://i.imgur.com/A8yFGb5.jpg)

Title: Re: lets talk about paid mods
Post by: thisismyusername on April 28, 2015, 12:11:28 AM
Quote from: Stoney Mason on April 27, 2015, 07:30:40 PM
I'm glad the backlash was so great that Valve and Bethesda both got a taste of internet rage.

They should set up a system where donations are heavily encouraged or even rethink an ad based system where creators can be rewarded. But the system they implemented was the worst case with zero thought.

When you download a mod from nexus now, there is a little message that encourages you to donate and even has a little donation button right there to do it. I'm glad that's been added and other things can be done but not what they did.

Now curious to see if they just lay in wait and reintroduce the same system for the next elder scrolls/fallout game with small tweaks and call it something else.

Gabe in the AMA he did said people could set the "pay what you want" to $.00. The problem is, nobody did and/or that wasn't implemented at the time. The lowest you could "pay what you want"/donate was $.25

Throw in the ridiculous cut Beth got (45%) and yeah... donating was impossible to support people if many just went for the lowest option available.

Valve needs to just make a donation button and be done with it. It'd cut Beth out of the equation while letting them "support mods." Problem is, you know they'll go after their cut of the pie when neither they nor Beth put in the work besides hosting the modders' work on a server/engine.
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 28, 2015, 01:48:43 AM
It was such a fundamental stunning misread of the situation that it was crazy to me, especially coming from Valve who are normally smarter than that. I expect that move from like MS or Sony. Not from Valve.

1.) "Normal" people don't prefer a situation where you have to pay for something where you didn't before. I don't care how good and rationale of an argument that a person will make. The heart will over-ride whatever the brain is saying. It's like if suddenly en masse people started charging for podcasts or youtube video content. You would get a similar backlash despite however much time one spends in producing that content. There are exceptions to this of course but generally the people who are doing it are going for a slightly more sophisticated audience. Not gamers.
2.) Went over this before but they targeted an existing organized community of an extremely popular game that had been around for years. Its almost a sacred cow. They would have been smarter going for a stealth attack with a new title or a title that isn't as insanely popular as skyrim.
3.) They talked about how this would be good for gamers but the initial batch of paid mods were awful. You could maybe get away with this if you were charging people for things at the ambition level of Skywind, Skyblivion, Falskaar, etc. But there was nothing like that. It was all horse armor dlc level. People were charging 2 and 3 bucks for individual weapons. That's insane. That's just as bad as publisher DLC that people rage about.
4.) Trying to use the team fortress, dota examples, they kept trotting out were insane. Those are free to play games from commercial enterprises. There is a tacit agreement when you play the game that you know what's up with the money model. There was no pre-arranged relationship like that with skyrim that consumers went into. They were trying to change it to that relationship. Which is a much much more difficult task.
5.) They never actually did investigate what the community wants. Maybe the community is perfectly fine with modding being what it is both the strengths and limitations. Not what Valve can turn it into.

I could go on and on and write a paper on it. Just dumb, dumb dumb.     
Title: Re: lets talk about the short life of paid mods
Post by: Stoney Mason on April 29, 2015, 09:46:43 AM
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/04/28/nexus-mods-on-paid-mods/

Good read. The nexus dude brought up most of the issues I think about when it comes to this subject.