THE BORE

General => Video Game Bored => Topic started by: Cerveza mas fina on March 29, 2016, 07:08:32 AM

Title: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on March 29, 2016, 07:08:32 AM: Still the best Diablo

Quote
David Brevik helped cofound Blizzard North over twenty years ago, and played a pivotal role in the design and development of the studio’s influential hit Diablo.

The game was released at the end of 1996, and to celebrate its 20th anniversary Brevik took the stage at GDC today to deliver a postmortem look back at his work on the game.

“The original concept was something I came up with in high school,” said Brevik, who went to school in California’s Bay Area and got the idea for the game’s name from local peak Mt. Diablo. “It’s all I’ve ever wanted to do, make games, and even in high school I was thinking about what kinds of games I could make and what names I could use.”

The original concept for Diablo, says Brevik, was more of a traditional party-based RPG, turn-based and heavily influenced by his early love of games like Rogue and Nethack.

These are some articles I can find, all have some nice new info

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/268507/20_years_later_David_Brevik_shares_the_story_of_making_Diablo.php

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/post-mortem-ms-pac-man-diablo-dissected-by-their-original-devs/

http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/21/11275128/diablo-game-pitch-document-read

http://www.graybeardgames.com/download/diablo_pitch.pdf
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on March 29, 2016, 07:19:39 AM: That bit in the pitch where they talk about expansions is fucking visionary.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Fifstar on March 29, 2016, 08:20:03 AM: The pitch document sounds really close to the finished product, I would have thought games change a lot more in the development process. Although it seems to have switched from turn based to real time.

Edit: Ahh, they are talking about that in the Gamasutra article
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Rufus on March 29, 2016, 09:14:23 AM: They talked about this on the last IdleThumbs. The fact that it was turn based for the longest time and how easy it was to change to real time was my favourite detail.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Am_I_Anonymous on March 29, 2016, 09:38:38 AM: I think it would have worked fine as a turn based game as well.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 29, 2016, 11:14:30 AM: I dunno. It's hard to imagine Diablo without that rush of adrenalin kicking in when you face The Butcher for the first time and there's no time to think.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on March 29, 2016, 11:55:54 AM: D2: LOD is still the best Diablo.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Great Rumbler on March 29, 2016, 02:50:10 PM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2evIg-aYw8

Still the GOAT. :lawd
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: VomKriege on April 02, 2016, 03:40:06 PM: The bit where they copied down to the pixel the X-com isometric diamond was good too.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on April 02, 2016, 04:45:09 PM: Quote from: Dufus on April 02, 2016, 03:05:36 PM
Diablo 1 > Diablo 2

I get the idea that people who rate D2 higher played it almost exclusively online. No idea what that's like.

yeah thats kind of how I feel

D1 was a great single player game with a good challenge, while also being fun coop. in the sequels the single player playthrough gets so little attention. 3 is really bad at that
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Rufus on April 02, 2016, 05:02:08 PM: I played D2 solo 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: toku on April 02, 2016, 06:07:16 PM: Quote from: Rufus on April 02, 2016, 05:02:08 PM
I played D2 solo 99% of the time.

Same.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Positive Touch on April 02, 2016, 07:25:38 PM: d1 multi was a cool idea but the cheating was unstoppable. like the biggest surprises from the online gameplay came from seeing what new crazy hacking methods or items they came up with. it was really rare to join a game that only had ppl that wanted to play legit
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: chronovore on April 02, 2016, 10:13:29 PM: Quote from: VomKriege on April 02, 2016, 03:40:06 PM
The bit where they copied down to the pixel the X-com isometric diamond was good too.
Isometric layout predates X-Com by quite a bit, doesn't it?

Quote from: ToxicAdam on March 29, 2016, 11:14:30 AM
I dunno. It's hard to imagine Diablo without that rush of adrenalin kicking in when you face The Butcher for the first time and there's no time to think.
Play any version of Net Hack and you'll find it can be just as sphincter-clenching. Good for passive Kegels.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 03, 2016, 12:33:34 AM: The part about shifting away from turn based, and the first time the dude clicked to kill a monster
:lawd
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: VomKriege on April 03, 2016, 02:10:23 AM: Quote from: chronovore on April 02, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
Quote from: VomKriege on April 02, 2016, 03:40:06 PM
The bit where they copied down to the pixel the X-com isometric diamond was good too.
Isometric layout predates X-Com by quite a bit, doesn't it?

The designer explained that he played a lot of X-com and thought the grid squares (Or whatever the name of the smallest tactical map subdivision is) were perfect, so they swiped that using screen captures (which were a wee bit harder then). As a result, Diablo should have the same perspective.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 03, 2016, 04:59:07 PM: Quote from: Rufus on April 02, 2016, 05:02:08 PM
I played D2 solo 99% of the time.

Same, also play D3 solo almost exclusively. Still rank them D2>D3=D1
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on April 04, 2016, 04:37:23 AM: Solo/multi is not exactly what I meant, maybe that's what Dufus meant though.

I was more thinking about the quality of the first, solo, playthrough. In D1 that was like a proper game. In D3 it was basically just a waste of time as it was too easy.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Rufus on April 04, 2016, 04:52:52 AM: On the first difficulty, sure, but part of the problem of launch D3 was Inferno difficulty being so stupid hard and drops being so rare that people felt they had to use the auction house to get gear.

Offline, you always have the option of cheating to mitigate this. The first character I made in D2 couldn't finish Hell difficulty, because I didn't know what I was doing.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: toku on April 04, 2016, 05:01:51 AM: D3 inferno was immaculate levels of bullshit its weird talking about it now though because ppl just think you're some high level special fellow for even trying. It was garbage but still kinda neat that first time you got gear that could jump you up an act only to get totally rekt again because now you have to change your entire playstyle just to survive.

I can't remember what was worse, those poison flying things or the jumping assholes in act 2 inferno.

Not to mention that dilemma where if you did get a great drop, you could actual pay for the game and then some by going to the AH.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Cerveza mas fina on April 04, 2016, 05:02:22 AM: I played on Hard and it was too easy, devoid of tension too.

On D1 I felt like even though the dungeons was random, the loot was very well balanced for the playthrough.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Rufus on April 04, 2016, 05:06:26 AM: D3 makes all your shit obsolete very, very quickly. Or made, dunno how it is now.

Quote from: toku on April 04, 2016, 05:01:51 AM
I can't remember what was worse, those poison flying things or the jumping assholes in act 2 inferno.
The wasps were the bane of my existence. Instagibbed me the first time I got to act 2. Barely made it to town.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 10:39:27 AM: OG Inferno in D3 was hilarious. After years of special fellow like dedication to building the tankiest of tanks I finally found a difficulty that itched my need to exploit near-max armor/block/dodge to mitigate insane damage. The problem was that my dps was so low I couldn't kill shit :lol

I play arpgs solo 99% of the time. But I gotta say those late night D3/Diablo kill runs with Triumph/Viz/etc were fun as fuck. And Bepbo getting people killed with his fuckery
:lawd :lol
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 04, 2016, 11:40:50 AM: The initial loot model in D3 was shit. It's in a much better place now. It kind of sucks because I feel like launch D3 had a lot of issues, and in trying to address them the devs swung the pendulum too far back on a lot of those issues.

-loot model they got right. Smart drops and the 4/2 primary/secondary are in a good place.
-the drop rate is a bit too generous now. It's way too easy to gear a character in seasons, but honestly it's probably for the best as I don't have a lot of time to put into playing the game to get a fucking loot set.
-progression is right now. Fuck a bunch of having to play the same fucking game through multiple difficulty levels to unlock the next one. Play until you're done with it the first time, unlock adventure mode, proceed directly to rifts and bounties, do not fuck with the main story mode ever again. I don't know why devs use that tired, boring, fucking regressive mentality in arpgs. I beat Grim Dawn on normal difficulty, unlocked elite, played the first couple missions again and then was like "nah." I don't care enough to get to the endgame if I have to play the same content 3-4 times. It's just fucking dumb. I'm playing PoE again now and I'm sure the same thing will happen there, too. Fuck it. It's just stupid.
-difficulty is too easy. I'm not sure if this is due to power creep from the high drop rate and adding more layers of complexity onto the game (legendary gems, kanai's cube, ancient legendary items, augmenting gear, etc) or what. I know you can up the difficulty level until it is dick punch mode if you really want, and that high greater rift progression WILL eventually make you the game's bitch, but last season I played hardcore and never once was in danger of dying. Part of that was playing cautious on appropriate difficulty levels, but part of it is that the game is easier now.

D3 still has lots of issues, but I maintain that it's also the best current arpg out on the market now. I simply don't have time to fuck with playing through the same content 3 times just to get to endgame. It's dumb, regressive game design that should be taken behind the barn and shot. Sucks because both Grim Dawn and PoE offer interesting, different takes on the game formula to D3, but ultimately confuse a lot of what made earlier entries in the series so great by sticking to game design ideas that made sense in 2000 but not 15, 16 years later.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Rufus on April 04, 2016, 12:55:03 PM: Yeah, it's tedious. Back when it was only two acts, PoE had 4 difficulties. Normal, hard(?), cruel, and merciless. I only caught the tail end of that, but I'm sure I would have hated it. I think the next act, whenever that's coming out, will see it cut down to two difficulties. But I'm sure it will feel tedious regardless, as they're most likely going to aim to keep the play-time until endgame the same.

They could solve this right now by opening up mapping in act 3 normal, but then I'm sure people would get bored of that type of content even sooner and they don't have any other end-game content besides Atziri, with no real reason to do it more than once per character unless you want to sell her drops.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 01:23:56 PM: IMO the middle difficulty is always the annoying thing. Whether it's D3 or PoE, that second difficulty never feels like an actual shift to harder content. If I could simply skip to inferno or merciless after beating the game once, I'd do it. Of course the game would need to be re-balanced to make it work. In POE, cruel has a -40 resistance penalty. Merciless has a -60 resistance penalty.

The difficulties feel worse in D3 to me long term because the lack of build diversity. Whereas you could create something crazy in POE and see what happens.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Rufus on April 04, 2016, 01:37:14 PM: Or use leveling gear which lets you just about run through. But that's not available on your first character after a reset.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 04, 2016, 02:54:47 PM: Quote from: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 01:23:56 PM
IMO the middle difficulty is always the annoying thing. Whether it's D3 or PoE, that second difficulty never feels like an actual shift to harder content. If I could simply skip to inferno or merciless after beating the game once, I'd do it. Of course the game would need to be re-balanced to make it work. In POE, cruel has a -40 resistance penalty. Merciless has a -60 resistance penalty.

The difficulties feel worse in D3 to me long term because the lack of build diversity. Whereas you could create something crazy in POE and see what happens.

You haven't played D3 since RoS, though, so you have no idea what you're talking about. Each set for each class has at least 1 viable build associated with it at this point, and there are now viable non-set end game builds thanks to the Legacy of Nightmares rings. No you can't just throw a bunch of random shit at a wall and have it work, yes you are VERY pigeonholed in what gear choices you have for what build you want to play, but there are multiple viable end game builds for each class now.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 05:36:10 PM: Pigeonholed gear demands, limited amount of builds per class...sounds like the same D3 to me :doge

And when you say viable builds...even the viable builds are pretty much in the same small ballpark right?
http://www.diablofans.com/builds

ehhh

I'm trolling to a degree but my general view is that I'd rather have a wide variety of actual build diversity, not five shades of one color. If I want to make a Barb or Marauder type character that uses bows I should be able to do it. Not saying every build can or should be viable but if I want to turn a rogue-type class into this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wQpmA3x2NM&feature=youtu.be

...I'll take it. Not hating on D3, it's good at what it does and obviously is the gold standard control wise. I just want more diversity and different types of end-game content.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 04, 2016, 05:41:55 PM: You WANT that... but be honest, breh. How many different kinds of builds are you playing? How many different classes do you have leveled and geared in end game viable specs?
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 05:48:10 PM: Quote from: Human Snorenado on April 04, 2016, 05:41:55 PM
You WANT that... but be honest, breh. How many different kinds of builds are you playing? How many different classes do you have leveled and geared in end game viable specs?

You know I'm playing a tanky Marauder, son. You know this. :brazilcry

BUT if I wanted to make a squishy Dungeons n Dragons caster or some shit, I'd want some diversity

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm also leveling a weird caster build on the side but I doubt I can get it to late lv
[close]
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: toku on April 04, 2016, 05:50:02 PM: Buy RoS PD. Embrace the double digit million damage numbers of torment bust a nut when everything onscreen explodes

Side Note: Did they ever say why they changed female demon hunter voice? :-\
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 04, 2016, 05:55:54 PM: Quote from: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: Human Snorenado on April 04, 2016, 05:41:55 PM
You WANT that... but be honest, breh. How many different kinds of builds are you playing? How many different classes do you have leveled and geared in end game viable specs?

You know I'm playing a tanky Marauder, son. You know this. :brazilcry

BUT if I wanted to make a squishy Dungeons n Dragons caster or some shit, I'd want some diversity

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm also leveling a weird caster build on the side but I doubt I can get it to late lv
[close]

:jawalrus

That's my point, though. People throw that out there like it's something to care about, but ultimately people tend to play what they want to play, which tends to be 1-2 classes/archetypes anyway. I've played 5 out of the 6 classes extensively in D3 endgame (don't care for Witch Doctor because I don't like pet builds) and guarantee you that I've had more build diversity in my D3 playtime than you have in your PoE playtime.

*shrugs*
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 06:06:28 PM: I wouldn't say that, I've played multiple classes/build types. Summoners, different wand based casters (2 wands, 1 wand 1 shield, etc), totem shit, etc. But I tend to start a league with something I know will survive long enough to build my currency/wealth.

I need to get off my ass and get an external HD. Once I do that there are some games I want to try (Divinity Original Sin or Pillars Of Earth)...and I also want to give RoS a shot. IIRC my D3 Barb had a lot of leech life (or whatever it's called in D3).
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 04, 2016, 06:20:48 PM: You'll want to play a Crusader. They're tankier, can wield a 2-hander and a shield at the same time if you choose a passive that let's you do that for a damage hit, and have a set based around Thorns damage.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: toku on April 04, 2016, 07:51:54 PM: Crusaders rock and I'm pretty much 100% team ranged most of the time. D3 Barbs suck though, don't let anyone tell you different. Boring as fuck. AS FUCK.
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Phoenix Dark on April 04, 2016, 08:21:46 PM: Quote from: toku on April 04, 2016, 07:51:54 PM
Crusaders rock and I'm pretty much 100% team ranged most of the time. D3 Barbs suck though, don't let anyone tell you different. Boring as fuck. AS FUCK.
GTFO
Title: Re: Diablo 1 post mortem - including original game pitch from 94
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 05, 2016, 10:46:21 AM: If you wanna tank, Crusaders are way better equipped to do so. Barbs are, uh, good at spinning around and shitting out tornadoes. And pulling in enemies as a support class for 4 player groups.