THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 06:27:53 PM

Title: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 06:27:53 PM
I'm talkin' 'bout basketball.

(http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060604/images/sptsC1_mavs.jpg)
STOP STEALIN' MY AWARDS.

(http://markhowell.typepad.com/commentary_from_the_edge/images/kobe_over_nash.jpg)
Eat my balls!

(http://kfba.net/etc/playerpics/41.jpg)
TASTES GREAT!

(http://www.mysanantonio.com/multimedia/slideshows/show_601/BKN0531_spurs1_duncan_wl.jpg)

Give me back my award!

(http://images.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/2006/nba-all-star-game/nash-lebron-inside.jpg)
Is this the D that won you two MVPs?

(http://hosted.ap.org/photos/V/VZN10501240233-big.jpg)
Fuck! I felt somethin' move.

(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3816/tracymcgradybackinjuryskz0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060218/060218_wade_vmed_7p.widec.jpg)
Keep your undeserved MVP awards. I got mine!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: CajoleJuice on January 31, 2007, 06:29:44 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 06:33:34 PM
;)
(http://espn-att.starwave.com/photo/2006/0522/nba_a_nash_412.jpg)
"I love you Juice."
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 06:46:21 PM
Who keeps voting for Nash. This poll is rigged.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Robo on January 31, 2007, 06:52:40 PM
Arenas, motherfuckers!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on January 31, 2007, 06:53:09 PM
On paper it's got to be that Canadian, the great Steve Nash. Like it or not this guy is responsible for more of his team's success than any other player in the league. He's credited for - whether it's through FGs or assists - 50+ points for the Suns. Find me one player in the league who makes that much of a difference on paper.

But alas, Nash won't win it; he's won twice in a row, so I doubt the writer's will give him another one. This is why I would vote for Kobe Bryant. I loved hating on Kobe after he got rid of the great Shaq, but I can't deny that Kobe is a changed player this season. What he has done is amazing. Great superstar players must be able to carry their team and make players better; look at Luke Walton this year, a good most improved player candidate. Look at the play of Smush. Look at Odom and how comfortable he is this year compared to last year, when Kobe utterly dominated the ball. The Lakers are on the verge of regaining their superpower status, and you've got to credit Kobe.

My MVP voting:

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Steve Nash
3. Gilbert Arenas
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 06:55:37 PM
You don't even have Dirk in the top three. Do you know what team has the best record in basketball?
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on January 31, 2007, 07:00:27 PM
You don't even have Dirk in the top three. Do you know what team has the best record in basketball?

How many times does the player on a team with the best record win the MVP?

Dirk is having a good year, but he's not in my top 3 for MVP. His preformance doesn't determine whether the Mavs win or lose - he could average 20 points a game and they'd still be on top. Guys like Arenas and Kobe and Nash mean far more to their teams than Dirk does to the Mavs.

Plus Dirk happens to still be a pussy in my eyes.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: makaveli on January 31, 2007, 07:04:02 PM
nash
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 07:14:03 PM
You don't even have Dirk in the top three. Do you know what team has the best record in basketball?

How many times does the player on a team with the best record win the MVP?
2005 (1st)
2004 (2nd)
2003 (1st)
2002 (2nd)
2001 (2nd)
2000 (1st)
1999 (1st)
1998 (1st)
1997 (1st)
1996 (1st)
1995 (1st)
1994 (2nd)
1993 (1st)
1992 (1st)
1991 (2nd)
1990 (1st)
1989 (2nd)
1988 (7th)*Jordan's crazy year
1987 (1st)
1986 (1st)
1985 (1st)
1984 (1st)
1983 (1st)
1982 (2nd)
1981 (1st)

Seeing a pattern?




You don't even have Dirk in the top three. Do you know what team has the best record in basketball?

Dirk is having a good year, but he's not in my top 3 for MVP. His preformance doesn't determine whether the Mavs win or lose - he could average 20 points a game and they'd still be on top. Guys like Arenas and Kobe and Nash mean far more to their teams than Dirk does to the Mavs.

The Mavs would have the best record without Dirk? 25/10/3 gives you zero extra wins but but 20/3/11 GIVES YOU CREDIT FOR EVERY FUCKING WIN!
Does Dirk have anyone as good as Amare or Marion? No, yet the Mavs have a better record.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on January 31, 2007, 07:16:15 PM
By what, one game? That's nothing to brag about. Next week the Suns might have it.

Dirk is not the MVP. Nash means more to his team on paper, and it's not even debatable.

Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 07:22:05 PM
By what, one game? That's nothing to brag about. Next week the Suns might have it.

Dirk is not the MVP. Nash means more to his team on paper, and it's not even debatable.


What does more on paper mean?

Nowitzki total production  30.8 opponent 13.1 Net: +17.7
Nowitzki on court  +11.6 off court: -6.0 Net:  +17.6
And Nash's PER rating is nowhere near Nowitzki's.
   
The Mavs lose when Dirk is off the fucking court. And you say they'd win just as much? Are you insane!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on January 31, 2007, 07:27:24 PM
By what, one game? That's nothing to brag about. Next week the Suns might have it.

Dirk is not the MVP. Nash means more to his team on paper, and it's not even debatable.


What does more on paper mean?

Nowitzki total production  30.8 opponent 13.1 Net: +17.7
Nowitzki on court  +11.6 off court: -6.0 Net:  +17.6
And Nash's PER rating is nowhere near Nowitzki's.
   
The Mavs lose when Dirk is off the fucking court. And you say they'd win just as much? Are you insane!


I didn't say that. I said if Dirk scored like 20ppg there'd be little difference.

Offensively no one produces more points than Steve Nash. Consider the Sun's last game for instance (which they lost). Nash was credited for (scoring and assists) at least 56 of the team's 112 points. :lol

But like I said my vote:

1. Kobe
2. Nash
3. Arenas
4. maybe Dirk I guess
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: CajoleJuice on January 31, 2007, 08:05:18 PM
I just voted Nash because I actually watched the NBA for the first time this year on Sunday during the game between the Suns and Cavs. The Suns just looked absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: etiolate on January 31, 2007, 08:42:04 PM
Nash or Dirk.

I don't get the Lakers record.  I watch them play, their defense is poor and they rely on unreliable big men. They look like a meltdown waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on January 31, 2007, 08:45:18 PM
Well that's a good point actually.

Don't tell Bionic77!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: max_cool on January 31, 2007, 09:18:47 PM
Nash

And you all know that he's going to get shafted because the Suns won't make it to the finals... unless

spoiler (click to show/hide)
they have the best record in the West, there's just no way that the Suns can go through Dallas and San Antonio
[close]
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 09:20:27 PM
Nash

And you all know that he's going to get shafted because the Suns won't make it to the finals... unless

spoiler (click to show/hide)
they have the best record in the West, there's just no way that the Suns can go through Dallas and San Antonio
[close]
The MVP is handed out well before the finals.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: max_cool on January 31, 2007, 09:21:02 PM
lol, I suck, am owned, everything else  :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 10:19:13 PM
ARENAS!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 10:45:22 PM
ARENAS!
Can't even beat the Raptors.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 10:48:12 PM
Hey, they were shooting over 60% tonight.  You can't beat anyone when they're dropping shots like that.  Also, they're playing without Jamison.  It's tough for Arenas to be double teamed or defended against when his only legitimate scoring threat is now Caron Butler.  They used to be able to make up for the lack of a post threat by having three perimeter scoring options.  Now you can defend against Arenas, and Butler isn't going to score more than 30 or so on anybody.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 10:53:55 PM
We can't beat a crappy team FROM CANADA. Arenas am fraud.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 10:59:22 PM
Must be easy to ignore on point and intelligent NBA analysis like that.  Maybe you should apply that cockiness to your LSATS, you bum.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Human Snorenado on January 31, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
HIBACHI!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:07:13 PM
He says he goes around shouting, "Quality shots!" more than "Hibachi!" nowadays.  I didn't hear him say anything when I saw him play, and I was really close :-\
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 11:09:37 PM
Washington has got to be the worst defensive teams in basketball. If the Raptors shoot 60% it is largely Washington's fault. Star players have to play without some of their teammates, it's unfortunate that Arenas can't handle it. He still has Butler who has had an amazing season. Iverson spent most of his career without teammates anywhere near as good as Butler and faced double teams on a nightly basis. Now I'm starting to think I shouldn't have even made Arenas an option.

 :-\
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:11:17 PM
And Iverson has spent most of his career out of the playoffs - what's your point?

Now I see why you suck at LSATs.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 11:14:56 PM
And Iverson has spent most of his career out of the playoffs - what's your point?

Now I see why you suck at LSATs.
Iverson made it to the Finals when his second option was Aaron McKie! Poor Arenas only had a 20/8/4 player to play with tonight.  :'(
How the hell can he possibly beat a team from the Atlantic division without Jamison!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:17:38 PM
Iverson made the Finals with a legitimate inside threat with Mutombo, and had a great ball handling guard that helped setup lanes in Eric Snow.

Do you know anything about basketball, malek?

Butler and Jamison are both perimeter guys.  The analogy isn't even fair, simply because as I stated, they've got no inside game so the team is completely dependent on all three being healthy.  One guy goes down, you can completely keep out one and then the other can't carry the team.  Arenas has faced double teams for most of the season and still dropped a crap load of points because of the system.  But it has a weakness - Haywood and Thomas are just not the answer.  At least Iverson could dish it inside to Mutombo.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: CajoleJuice on January 31, 2007, 11:19:24 PM
Willco, you're crushing any confidence malek has left.  :-\
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:20:41 PM
He made it personal by attacking Arenas!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Error Macro on January 31, 2007, 11:21:18 PM
All I know is that I heard Steve Nash's name in that Nelly Furtado song, so it must be him. 
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 11:22:41 PM
Dikembe is not and never has been a scoring threat. He has always been a tremendous defensive center, but that's it.


Eric Snow is garbage. You are grasping at straws.

Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:22:59 PM
Steve Nash will probably win the award, simply because the Suns have the best team in the NBA and he's having a great year.  But Arenas is the legitimate MVP.  The Wizards would be a .500 team at best without him.  At best.  He thrives in that system, but even with Jamison out, he'll still score 30 a game and carry the team into the All-Star break.  You take him off the Wizards, and you've got a very mediocre team.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:27:01 PM
Dikembe is not and never has been a scoring threat. He has always been a tremendous defensive center, but that's it.

Uh, what.  Maybe you watched a different Finals team.  Mutombo was in his prime back then, as he could score at least 10 points a night and give you 13 rebounds, but he could also take the heat off of Iverson.  If he was getting too much heat, he'd dish out inside to Mutombo and it'd be easy buckets.  I swear he scored close to 30 points in at least a couple of games in that series.

Quote
Eric Snow is garbage. You are grasping at straws.

If you're trying to say Eric Snow is bad at ball handling - you're grasping at straws.  Iverson has never excelled at game handling duties; he's a scorer.  Snow took that load off of him.

You should watch a basketball game some time.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 11:32:06 PM
In his prime? He was 35 (really 55). 10 points a game on garbage buckets is not a scoring threat. Yeah he had a few good games in the Finals, but Shaq doesn't like to waste his energy on defense. Snow was a good ball handler and defensive player, but he's nowhere near as good as a player like Caron Butler. Arenas plays with two guys averaging 20 PPG. Iverson didn't have anyone over 12PPG.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:32:53 PM
I apologize, Mutombo really only had one good offensive game during the Finals.  He pretty much was a 15 point guy with a ton of great defensive stops during the series.

That said, you put him on the Wizards and they wouldn't miss Antawan Jamison.  A defensive big guy that'd give you 15 points would've won the game tonight.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:35:01 PM
Again, the 76ers had a pure scorer, a ball handler and a defensive big man that'd score buckets.  The Wizards do not.  Completely not fair analogy.

The Wizards have three scoring threats and none of them are physical except Arenas, who drive and take hard fouls.  Taking on of them out gets rid of opportunities for the other two (who are you going to guard when Butler and Jamison can shoot it?), they've got no one who can make defensive stops or score buckets inside.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on January 31, 2007, 11:36:29 PM

I acknowledge the Wizards don't have any decent bigs, but Bosh isn't exactly Moses Malone on the inside. Washington may finish with the best record in the East, but if they face the Heat with Shaq, they'll be done for.

Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on January 31, 2007, 11:39:56 PM
Not really. 

If Jamison, Butler and Arenas are healthy, they can beat anyone and they've shown that.  They've beaten the Suns, Mavericks, Lakers, Jazz, etc.  Not really crap East teams.  They have an offensive pace that's so quick that they can beat any East team.  Now, can they beat the Suns or Mavericks in a series?  No, of course not.

Health is key here.

The other thing they have going for them is Darius Songaila and Michael Ruffin will be back from injuries soon, and pretty rested.  Songaila, in particular, will provide a key defensive boost to the squad.

Jamison is also only out 'till the All-Star break, and it's just a sprain.  I expect he'll be fine for the rest of the season, as all three have been pretty healthy.  Larry Hughes was the question mark when he was part of the trio.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: CajoleJuice on January 31, 2007, 11:41:03 PM
So how bout dem Knicks?  :'(
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 01:58:09 AM
In a just world Arenas would finish ahead of Dirk in the ballots. Sadly, I don't think we live in a just world.

What he's doing is amazing. Not only is he one of the funniest and most down to earth guys in the NBA, he also has legitimite chips on his shoulder. First it was the who second round thing. Now, the Olympics. This man is playing out his mind and deserves some credit, even if his team is just fighting to be the sacrificial lamb to which ever western team makes it to the finals
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Mandark on February 01, 2007, 02:02:38 AM
AI was the best offensive player on a good defensive team.  When a team starts to succeed because of an improved defense, people tend to give credit to whoever's putting up numbers on offense or whoever's new.  AI in Philly, Kidd in New Jersey, Cassell in Los Angeles, Chris Paul in OKC, etc.

The year the 76er's went to the finals, they were the #5 defensive team and the #13 offensive team.  All the other starters besides AI got votes for NBA All-Defense.  Arenas is running one of the top offenses, and is shooting a better percentage that AI ever did.

I voted for Arenas in the poll, but he's cooled off enough in the last month that I can't honestly say he's the MVP right now.  I'd still vote for him in anything that counts, though.

Right now I'd go with Nash.  He's shooting the highest percentage in the league, leading the league in assists by almost a full third more than the next player, and has a higher on-court/off-court differential than Nowitzki, even with a good player like Barbosa as his backup.  He's the best offensive player on the league's best offense.

I won't deny that Nash has good players around him, but neither of his two best teammates can regularly create their own shot, and almost everyone with serious playing time has posted a significantly better TS% with Nash than they did in the year before or after playing with him.

Also, he raped us in Washington.  Just jumped out of the bushes and raped us.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 02:07:11 AM
Mandark :bow

Will you sign my "Deport Dirk" petition?
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Mandark on February 01, 2007, 02:15:01 AM
Nowitzki is a foot taller than me and German.

No way I'm doing anything to piss him off.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 02:16:27 AM
I think we should wait to see who is the victor of the Lakers/Wizards game on Saturday to decide! Arenas for king!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 02:21:42 AM
Nowitzki is a foot taller than me and German.

No way I'm doing anything to piss him off.

If you touch him he falls on the floor while flailing his legs and inadvertadly spreads his cheeks (or is it on purpose...). I could take him
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Loki on February 01, 2007, 02:29:25 AM
I have it like so:

1. Dirk
2. Nash
3. Kobe
4. Duncan/Arenas (tie)


Dirk deserves it for several reasons, not the least of which is that he got shafted last season (better numbers than Nash and a better team record last year).  Nash is actually making his best case for MVP this season (~20/12 and 50+% from both 2 and 3? :o), but I'd give Dirk his first sooner than I'd give Nash his third (which would put him in some elite company), both because Dirk is having at least an equally impressive season from an individual and team stanpoint as well as the fact that, as noted previously, he was outright robbed last year.

So it's Dirk for me thus far, without question.  Nash has a slight edge on Kobe (I'd say 5-10% if I had to quantify it); Kobe, in turn, has a similar edge on Duncan/Arenas imo.  The Lakers and Spurs have comparable records despite key injuries for LA and Kobe is playing better ball than Duncan is this season.


Malek, good call on noting the team record for past MVP winners.  I'm pretty sure your rankings were in-conference, but it's interesting to note that only twice in the last 20 years did the MVP come from a team that was not a top 3 team in the entire league, record-wise.  Those two exceptions were Jordan in '88 (when he just had a ridiculous year and they overachieved) and Nash last season -- and Nash's team had the fourth best record in the league.  That's why it makes me laugh when people say that Kobe got robbed last year.  No, he didn't -- not based on the historical precedent and the implicit criteria for the award, at least.  Players from 45-win, 7th seeded teams with the 10th best record in the NBA just don't win MVP.

</Kobe bashing> ;) :D
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Mandark on February 01, 2007, 02:32:00 AM
Pffft, robbed last year.  True or not (I think it is), that's the sort of logic that has people leaving Cal Ripken off their Hall of Fame ballots.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 02:41:51 AM
The MVP is Arenas.  Remove Dirk and Nash from their respective teams, and they're still playoff teams.  Remove Kobe and Arenas from their respective teams, and they're not playoff teams (I don't think the Wiz would make the playoffs even in the East!).  Arenas is having a better year than Kobe so he should win the award.

THE END.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 02:54:46 AM
The MVP is Arenas.  Remove Dirk and Nash from their respective teams, and they're still playoff teams.  Remove Kobe and Arenas from their respective teams, and they're not playoff teams (I don't think the Wiz would make the playoffs even in the East!).  Arenas is having a better year than Kobe so he should win the award.

THE END.

If we're going to go by those standards I'd put Kobe ahead of Arenas. The Lakers are in a far tougher division.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 03:06:47 AM
That makes no sense.  Arenas is having a better year than Kobe, has beaten the top West teams and has put the Wiz in front of the ENTIRE conference, not just division.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 03:14:00 AM
The problem is that there are only 2 teams outside of Washington worth mentioning in the East (I'm not including the Cavs). Of course they have a good record playing Atlanta, Charolette, and Toronto all the time lolz.

The Lakers have more quality wins as far as I'm concerned. And to be honest, I'm not entirely sold on Washington yet. Beating the Pistons two time in a row during the regular season is impressive...but let's see them pull that off in the playoffs. Assuming the Heat aren't going anywhere it's going to come down to the Pistons and Wizards.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 03:56:49 AM
Uh, they've beaten the Lakers, Mavericks, Suns and Jazz, smart guy.  What are you smoking?
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Roland on February 01, 2007, 05:29:13 AM
I voted for Lebron since I'm a Cavs fan and he basically saved Cleveland basketball.  But I know it's Nash.  Couldn't even be mad about the loss this past Sunday.  Steve Nash is not human.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 12:02:03 PM
Uh, they've beaten the Lakers, Mavericks, Suns and Jazz, smart guy.  What are you smoking?

Your point? Their record is far more inflated with wins against horrible teams than the Lakers, and they'll be exposed in the playoffs.

And didn't they get beat by the Rapters last night...again?
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 12:11:38 PM
They've played almost 20 games against the West and multiple games against good East teams like Detriot (four games), Orlando (I think we're up to three), Cleveland and Miami.  You're crazy.

Yes, they lose to crap teams now and then (that was also a back-to-back where they traveled from D.C. to OUT OF THE COUNTRY without Antawan Jamison).

You're just stupid!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 02:08:19 PM
I have it like so:

1. Dirk
2. Nash
3. Kobe
4. Duncan/Arenas (tie)


Dirk deserves it for several reasons, not the least of which is that he got shafted last season (better numbers than Nash and a better team record last year).  Nash is actually making his best case for MVP this season (~20/12 and 50+% from both 2 and 3? :o), but I'd give Dirk his first sooner than I'd give Nash his third (which would put him in some elite company), both because Dirk is having at least an equally impressive season from an individual and team stanpoint as well as the fact that, as noted previously, he was outright robbed last year.

So it's Dirk for me thus far, without question.  Nash has a slight edge on Kobe (I'd say 5-10% if I had to quantify it); Kobe, in turn, has a similar edge on Duncan/Arenas imo.  The Lakers and Spurs have comparable records despite key injuries for LA and Kobe is playing better ball than Duncan is this season.


Malek, good call on noting the team record for past MVP winners.  I'm pretty sure your rankings were in-conference, but it's interesting to note that only twice in the last 20 years did the MVP come from a team that was not a top 3 team in the entire league, record-wise.  Those two exceptions were Jordan in '88 (when he just had a ridiculous year and they overachieved) and Nash last season -- and Nash's team had the fourth best record in the league.  That's why it makes me laugh when people say that Kobe got robbed last year.  No, he didn't -- not based on the historical precedent and the implicit criteria for the award, at least.  Players from 45-win, 7th seeded teams with the 10th best record in the NBA just don't win MVP.

</Kobe bashing> ;) :D

 :bow :bow :bow :bow

The rankings were league wide and not just in-conference.

The MVP is Arenas.  Remove Dirk and Nash from their respective teams, and they're still playoff teams.  Remove Kobe and Arenas from their respective teams, and they're not playoff teams (I don't think the Wiz would make the playoffs even in the East!).  Arenas is having a better year than Kobe so he should win the award.

THE END.
(http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/popper.jpg)
Come on.
That isn't falsifiable (barring a terrible injury) and you have to keep in mind that the Suns and Mavs both win 80% of their games, while the 8th place teams usually have a .500 record. If the Mavs (without Dirk) or Suns (without Nash) drop 30 percentage points they're still a playoff team. If the Lakers (without Kobe) drop 30 percentage points they're in the basement. So what you say may be true, but it is nevertheless irrelevant since the teams are at such differing levels to begin with.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: CajoleJuice on February 01, 2007, 02:11:14 PM
Loki is pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: etiolate on February 01, 2007, 02:57:21 PM
Quote
So it's Dirk for me thus far, without question.

I get the feeling Dirk won't win because I just don't see him in the limelight that much. I thought Dirk was the MVP last year as well, but he seems to get overlooked in comparison to others for some reason. Maybe his personality isn't loud enough for the votes.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 04:44:42 PM
They've played almost 20 games against the West and multiple games against good East teams like Detriot (four games), Orlando (I think we're up to three), Cleveland and Miami.  You're crazy.

Yes, they lose to crap teams now and then (that was also a back-to-back where they traveled from D.C. to OUT OF THE COUNTRY without Antawan Jamison).

You're just stupid!

There's no excuse for losing to the Raptors or inflating your record by beating Atlanta/Char./Boston/etc.

Nash is the MVP on paper, and it's barely debatable. And if we are to use the standards Willco seems to prefer, Kobe has Arenas beat in every way. Scoring more points doesn't make him more valuable than Kobe
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 04:46:20 PM

Nash is the MVP on paper, and it's barely debatable.

(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/7/77/250px-Toiletpapier_(Gobran111).jpg)
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 04:47:23 PM
The Suns will beat the Mavs if they play them in the playoffs

Someone bookmark this prophesy
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 04:50:34 PM
Scoring more points doesn't make him more valuable than Kobe

How about clutch, buzzer beater shots?  Arenas has 13!

You're just dumb.  It's not even more points, but how Arenas scores the points and wins games.  The Wizards, easily, have had one of the toughest first half schedules.  They lose to the bad teams if anything, which is unnerving.

You've got no argument here!

Someone bookmark this prophesy

Also, learn to spell prophecy.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 04:55:40 PM
The Suns will beat the Mavs if they play them in the playoffs

Someone bookmark this prophesy
The Mavs beat them twice this year and beat them in the playoffs last year. Good luck.

(http://membres.lycos.fr/jujoseph/Nowitzki_goes_for_the_dunk_04.05.03.jpg)

Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 05:00:00 PM
Buzzer beaters? :lol

The Lakers have an almost identical record to the Wizards and they're in the superior conference. Kobe has lead his team this success while making everyone around him better, which cannot be said of Arenas. Luke Walton is a legit contender for most improved player, and Odom is having a great year.

And he's doing all this while shooting a much better percentage than Arenas. I like Arenas, but he's no Kobe, and he's certainly no MVP
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 05:09:49 PM
How are you laughing at buzzer beaters?  When the game has been on the long, Arenas has delivered.  He droped 54 on the Jazz and won the game single handedly.  Way to dismiss a huge clutch stat.

I'm going to breakdown Washington's wins and Los Angeles wins, with quality teams bolded with teams actually supposed to make some noise in the postseason.

WASHINGTON

BOSTON
PACERS
BUCKS
BUCKS
CAVALIERS

HAWKS
BOBCATS
MAVERICKS
KNICKS
76ers
NUGGETS
HEAT
LAKERS

KINGS
SUNS
GRIZZLES
BOBCATS
MAGIC
BUCKS

CLIPPERS
BULLS
JAZZ

KNICKS
ORLANDO
CELTICS
PISTONS
PISTONS


LAKERS

SUNS
WARRIORS
SONICS
TIMBERWOLVES
GRIZZLIES
RAPTORS
BULLS
CLIPPERS
NETS
JAZZ
CLIPPERS
PACERS
HAWKS
SPURS
ROCKETS

TIMBERWOLVES
NETS
MAGIC
76ers
KINGS
MAGIC
HEAT
SPURS

WARRIORS
CELTICS

EXPLAIN THAT, MAURICE. OH WAIT, YOU CAN'T.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 01, 2007, 05:13:02 PM
Furthermore, Kobe's percentage is not that much higher than Arenas', who has a higher 3pt percentage.  He also scores more and is easily a way better defender than Kobe.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 05:43:26 PM
I don't know, the difference in shooting percentages is fairly substantial, but it's somewhat mitigated by the fact that Arenas takes so many threes.

Kobe has made multiple All-Defense teams, including last year's first team. I've felt that Bryant is overrated when it comes to his defensive, but are you going to say that Arenas is better than him?

 
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 06:26:40 PM
Furthermore, Kobe's percentage is not that much higher than Arenas', who has a higher 3pt percentage.  He also scores more and is easily a way better defender than Kobe.

What the hell?
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Prost on February 01, 2007, 07:15:23 PM
By what, one game? That's nothing to brag about. Next week the Suns might have it.

Dirk is not the MVP. Nash means more to his team on paper, and it's not even debatable.


Yeah seriously, if any joe shmoe plays on the same team as Nash, suddenly he's a good player.  Nash isn't just a great player himself, he makes the other people on his team great as well.

I mean if you want to talk about who truly is most valuable, then it's by FAR Nash.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 07:17:27 PM
By what, one game? That's nothing to brag about. Next week the Suns might have it.

Dirk is not the MVP. Nash means more to his team on paper, and it's not even debatable.


Yeah seriously, if any joe shmoe plays on the same team as Nash, suddenly he's a good player.  Nash isn't just a great player himself, he makes the other people on his team great as well.

I mean if you want to talk about who truly is most valuable, then it's by FAR Nash.

Exactly; why this is even being debated is beyond me. Perhaps people truly are threatened that a skinny, ugly white guy is dominating a predominantly African American sport without dunking the basketball or overpowering anyone. Oops
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 07:34:42 PM
Dirk is better without Nash
Howard is better without Nash
Joe Johnson is better without Nash
Marion is the exact same player with Nash
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 07:37:16 PM
Dirk is better without Nash
Howard is better without Nash
Joe Johnson is better without Nash
Marion is the exact same player with Nash
:lol
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 07:37:52 PM
Dirk is better without Nash
Howard is better without Nash
Joe Johnson is better without Nash
Marion is the exact same player with Nash
:lol
What are you laughing about. These are all facts.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 07:47:50 PM
That have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Those players have evolved since playing with Nash. At the time, Howard was a budding rookie, and Johnson was not a first or second option player.

Dirk, Howard, and Johnson have something that Mario does not. Do you want to guess? That's right: they can all create their own offense and generate their own shots. These types of players do well in the NBA don't you agree? And all three have improved with time since Nash's departure - come on, that's a pretty obvious fact. Of course they've improved in the last 2-3 years.

Marion and Amare are not capible of creating their own offense. They're both poor dribbling big men who like to either spot up shoot (Marion) or work in the post (Amare). Nash is giving them the ball where they need it and improving their game. Amare's game was extremely limited before Nash arrived in Phoenix.

But it's not just about those two. Nearly everyone on that team has improved. Nash turned Tim Thomas into a legit most improved player award candidate and a deadly cluth player. This year Thomas is struggling in LA.

Look at Barbosa, Bell, Diaw, etc. No one knew who they were before Nash got ahold of them. Marcus Banks? Kirt Thomas?  :lol

Malek, it's not even close.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 07:56:28 PM
Give me a break

Marion the three season before Nash
19.1 PPG
21.2 PPG
19.0 PPG

With Nash
19.4 PPG
21.8 PPG
18.9 PPG

OMG Nash is a miracle worker!



Let's look at Bell
Year before Nash:
12.3 PPG (45% shooting) in a slow system in 28 minutes
With Nash:
14.7 PPG (45% shooting) in a fast paced system in 37 minutes a game

What a miracle worker

MVP
MVP
MVP
MVP


Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 07:59:39 PM
Are you distinguished mentally-challenged?

Marion is not the star of the team. He defers to Amare, so why is it surprising that he's not scoring 30 points a game?

Bell is older and less of a priority in the Phoenix offense. He's playing with Marion, Nash, Amare, and Barborosa for christ's sake.

And I love how you only brought up two players. Did you even know who Barborosa was a few years ago? Or DIAW?  :lol
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 08:02:33 PM
They were like what, 21 or 22 when they started playing with Nash? Wow 21 year old basketball players improved with age... WOWWOWOWOWWOWO

 NO IT WAS ALL NASH!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 08:04:21 PM
They were like what, 21 or 22 when they started playing with Nash? Wow 21 year old basketball players improved with age... WOWWOWOWOWWOWO

 NO IT WAS ALL NASH!

So it's age with respect to those players' development, but not Howard and Johnson? Biased much?

 :lol
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 08:05:54 PM
They were foreigners, it's different.


 :ninja
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 08:08:51 PM
Malek exposed :lol

Good job ruining your credibility buddy. Clearly you're of the Ninja Scooter/Bionic77 fabric. I'm more disappointed in you since you have an understanding of fallacies.

But...Bionic is a lawyer or something I think :-\
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 08:39:44 PM
Malek exposed :lol

Good job ruining your credibility buddy. Clearly you're of the Ninja Scooter/Bionic77 fabric. I'm more disappointed in you since you have an understanding of fallacies.

But...Bionic is a lawyer or something I think :-\
So some players are better, some players are the same, and some players are worse off without Nash. That certainly doesn't suggest he should get the credit for everything a player on his team does. Let's not forget that the Suns system changed as well, a system that is pretty much designed around Nash.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 08:58:11 PM
Malek exposed :lol

Good job ruining your credibility buddy. Clearly you're of the Ninja Scooter/Bionic77 fabric. I'm more disappointed in you since you have an understanding of fallacies.

But...Bionic is a lawyer or something I think :-\
So some players are better, some players are the same, and some players are worse off without Nash. That certainly doesn't suggest he should get the credit for everything a player on his team does. Let's not forget that the Suns system changed as well, a system that is pretty much designed around Nash.

Now you're wiggling. On one hand you're trying to suggest some players growth is due to gaining experience (those who play with Nash), whereas others growth is due to not playing with him anymore? You're willing to give Dirk and others the credit of being responsible for their teams success, but you're not willing to give Nash this same credit? You can't have it both ways.

Nash has taken a group of reletively obscure players and put them in positions where they can be dangerous to other teams. These guys are not superstarts, like a Dirk or a Johnson or even Howard - guys who know how to get their own shots as well as dominate. These are not players who can simply go to another team and garner the same success - like a Tim Thomas. Once again, we're talking about guys you had no knowledge of just a couple years ago, who are now helping to take the team places it's never been before.

Either you're simply too biased to admit reality of you're just not as big of a basketball fan as you say. Steve Nash is not only one of the greatest players in the game, he's one of the greatest point guards the NBA has ever seen. I don't think anyone could argue that Stockton - the alltime assist leader - made even the most average players better. Magic didn't really do that either. I'm not saying Nash is "better" than either, but what he is doing is amazing and it's sad that there are people out there unwilling to give him the credit he deserves.

No one means more to their team than Nash, who took a team that wasn't even making the playoffs and turned them into the powerhouse in the matter of a couple years.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 09:28:24 PM
By pointing out the players who have done better without Nash I was just trying to show you players don't need Nash to "make them better". I dislike it when people say "he makes the players around him better". Garbage! You can point to Tim Thomas, but he wasn't out of the league because he couldn't play. This year with the Clippers he's pretty much the same player he was last year with Nash. His percentage is down slightly, but that could be explained by the change of pace. When you run up and down the court you get easy looks, NO MATTER WHO THE PG IS.

And if you're going to tell me players like Marion and Amare were obscure, you're nuts. Phoenix has had great talent all through Nash's run there. He's not playing with a bunch of scrubs, these are all stars!

Stockton played 19 seasons and averaged over ten assists for his entire career. Nash has three seasons of 10+ assists per game. AND STOCKTON PLAYED SOME D NOW AND THEN! You're telling me the Jazz would be anywhere near as good without him?

You people are seriously overrating Nash. Steve Nash has never put up Kevin Johnson like numbers. NOT ONCE. How many MVP's did KJ get?

Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 01, 2007, 09:40:11 PM
I never said those two were obscure. My point with respect to Amare and Marion is that they're unable to create their own shots, and Nash perfectly compliments them. Remember, before Nash came to Phoenix Amare was a rather reckless, "dumb" player (in the sense of only being able to do a couple things). His game is much more varied now, and it's actually benefitted from the injury; he's now forced to do more than just turn around and dunk on people. But I seriously hope he fully recovers from that injury :(

Nash had a rough time early on in his career - unlike Stockton. He's one of those players who has gotten signifigantly better with age. Right now he's averaging almost 20 points a game while shooting over 50%, and 12 assists a game. That's at least 44 points of offense per game attributed to him one way or another. As a point guard that's amazng.

Dirk doesn't deserve to be in the discussion as far as I'm concerned. I can't possibly see an argument that would put him ahead of Kobe or Arenas, much less Nash.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 01, 2007, 09:58:31 PM
-Dallas has the best record even though they have only one allstar (Dirk!)
Phoenix has three by the by

-He's one of the best scorers in the league while being extremely efficient (50%/40%/90%) and unselfish (just 17 shots a game).

-He's one of thet top fourth quarter scorers and has made a bunch of big shots this season.

-He's one of the best defensive rebounders in the league.

-He creates space for his teammates by drawing bigs outside.

-He's among the best passing big men while rarely turning the ball over.


Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Loki on February 01, 2007, 11:41:03 PM
The MVP is Arenas.  Remove Dirk and Nash from their respective teams, and they're still playoff teams.  Remove Kobe and Arenas from their respective teams, and they're not playoff teams (I don't think the Wiz would make the playoffs even in the East!).  Arenas is having a better year than Kobe so he should win the award.

THE END.

What sort of criterion is that, though?  Fine, take Kobe off LA and they'd win 38-42 games and be out of the playoffs, whereas with him they'll likely win 51-53 games and be a 4th or 5th seed.  So that's a 9-15 game difference (hard to estimate, but it'd be around there).  If you take Dirk off the Mavs, they'd win between 43-48 games imo, but with him they're on pace to win 66 games right now, for a differential of 18-23 games.  No way does Dallas minus Dirk win more than 48 games in the Western conference.  So Dirk is actually more valuable in that sense.


Btw, I feel that Kobe has historically been terribly overrated defensively -- particularly last season, when he deserved a second-team nod at best as opposed to the first-team selection he actually received (he doesn't deserve to make either first or second team this season based on his performance thus far imo).  However, to suggest that Arenas is a better defender than Kobe -- much less "easily" a better defender than him -- is farcical. :P


Btw #2, PhoenixDark, Nash easily has a better MVP case than Kobe.  Not by a huge margin (as I mentioned earlier), but there's a clear distinction there imo.  This is certainly Kobe's best season to date in terms of his MVP prospects, however.  I just think that, at the end of the day, when you have three guys who are roughly on par statistically (Dirk, Nash, and Kobe), voters are going to turn to the standings and see Phoenix and Dallas with >63 wins, and LA with 51-53 wins, most likely.  It'll be tough for Kobe this year imo, though if he doesn't finish top 3 there's something wrong.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Mandark on February 02, 2007, 12:36:03 AM
The Lakers are in the tougher conference and will have played a slightly tougher schedule at the end of the year.  Up to this point, the cumulative winning percentage of the Wizards' opponents is .507 (6th in the league), the Lakers is .497 (20th in the league).

So far, the Wizards have a tougher schedule, almost the exact same record, and have been better recently.  It might change later, but that's where things stand now.

Nash does make his teammates more efficient on offense.  True shooting percentages, years with Nash in Phoenix bolded:

Amare Stoudemire:

2004 - .536
2005 - .617


Joe Johnson:

2002 - .478
2003 - .472
2004 - .491
2005 - .556
2006 - .537

Shawn Marion:

2000 - .511
2001 - .532
2002 - .518
2003 - .538
2004 - .513
2005 - .556
2006 - .591


Quentin Richardson:

2001 - .516
2002 - .534
2003 - .460
2004 - .484
2005 - .522
2006 - .452

Raja Bell:

2002 - .486
2003 - .509
2004 - .500
2005 - .527
2006 - .584

Boris Diaw:

2004 - .483
2005 - .479
2006 - .564


It would be a lot more c/ping, but generally Nash's teammates in Phoenix turn the ball over at a lower rate as well, since he carries so much of the ballhandling responsibility.  Bell Marion, Johnson, Diaw, Richardson, Stoudemire all show that effect.

"Making his teammates better" is something a lot of stars get credit for, even when it's obviously not true (Jordan), but in Nash's case, the numbers back it up, and it's easy to see by watching the games.  Relatively few Phoenix baskets come from individuals working in the post or off the dribble.

Diaw and Barbosa can create shots at a decent rate, so I think people overrate the role Nash has had in their development, but he's definitely making a huge difference for Stoudemire and Marion (Bell to a slightly lesser degree) by letting them become spot-up shooters or feeding them for easy baskets in the paint.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Loki on February 02, 2007, 01:56:21 AM
When did you become such a big NBA buff, Mandark?  IIRC you never posted in the GA NBA threads.  Interesting. :P
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 03:27:24 AM
Kobe has made multiple All-Defense teams, including last year's first team. I've felt that Bryant is overrated when it comes to his defensive, but are you going to say that Arenas is better than him?

Yeah, he is.  Arenas gets turnovers and does a good job of getting boards and key defensive stops.  And I believe he was recently ranked by Hollinger as the best combo guard in the game.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 02, 2007, 03:31:22 AM
Kobe has made multiple All-Defense teams, including last year's first team. I've felt that Bryant is overrated when it comes to his defensive, but are you going to say that Arenas is better than him?

Yeah, he is.  Arenas gets turnovers and does a good job of getting boards and key defensive stops.  And I believe he was recently ranked by Hollinger as the best combo guard in the game.

Kobe used to be a very good defensive player. Now he's rather lax with it. If he's playing against a guard who's putting up a challenge to him personally  - a Vince Carter or McGrady for instance - he pulls out all the stops. But unlike Jordan he doesn't seem willing to clamp down during every possession, at least not anymore. That being said I'd rank him ahead of Arenas in terms of defense.

And offense. Kobe is a much better shooter and he gets his teammates involved much more naturally.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 03:33:23 AM
That being said I'd rank him ahead of Arenas in terms of defense.

 :lol  :lol

Yeah, I'll take your word, someone who was absolutely thrashed in his schedule argument, over legitimate NBA analysts.

Quote
And offense. Kobe is a much better shooter and he gets his teammates involved much more naturally.

 :lol

Joke character confirmed.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 02, 2007, 03:38:27 AM
over legitimate NBA analysts.

 :lol
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 03:46:48 AM
I don't think you should be able to post in this thread after being humiliated by your assumptions over schedules.  So, yeah, I'll take John Hollinger's word over yours!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Loki on February 02, 2007, 04:08:43 AM
Yeah, he is.  Arenas gets turnovers and does a good job of getting boards and key defensive stops.  And I believe he was recently ranked by Hollinger as the best combo guard in the game.

No way is Gil a better defender than Kobe freaking Bryant. :lol  I never thought I'd see the day that I'd feel compelled to defend Kobe's overrated ass, but this is what you've reduced me to, Willco. ;) :P

Also, you might not be up on the lingo: "combo guard" refers to a 1/2 hybrid (a la Wade), not the best combination of defense/offense at the guard spot.  You might know this, but the way it was placed in your post makes it ambiguous. :)
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Mandark on February 02, 2007, 04:35:19 AM
When did you become such a big NBA buff, Mandark?  IIRC you never posted in the GA NBA threads.  Interesting. :P

Do you remember those threads?  It's a mish-mash of shameless hero-worship, mood swings, and HEEE-LARIOUS photo captions.

I've been following the NBA a lot more closely the last four years, starting after Jordan got turfed from DC.  I always followed the league, but I was a bit more cool on it after Chris Webber, Juwan Howard, Rod Strickland, and Gheorghe Muresan broke my heart.

I found www.wizznutzz.com back then, too.  It's getting love from the online side of the Washington Post these days (Wizznutzz coined the "Agent Zero" nickname) but it's got a lot of good stuff going back.  It's a weird mix of literacy and prison-rape humor, sort of the Drinky Crow of basketball blogs.



Willco: It wasn't Hollinger who did that piece on ESPN about Arenas-as-combo-guard, it was David Thorpe.   Loki's right; Thorpe basically just talks about Arenas' offense.

Kobe's overrated as a defender, but he's definitely better than Arenas.  Arenas has flashes at that end, but he's got a long way to improve.  On the other hand, no way Kobe gets his teammates involved significantly more than Arenas does.  More assists per game, more assists as a percentage of his possessions, etc.

Plus, did you watch Kobe at all last year?  I've seen singles tennis players pass to their teammates more.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 02, 2007, 08:46:07 AM
How many combo guards are there anyway? Baron, Iverson, Wade, Hinrich, Arenas, Barbosa, Terry, Francis, and Mike James? Out of those players it seems Hinrich is the best defender, though he's not as good as he was last year.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 11:06:56 AM
Plus, did you watch Kobe at all last year?  I've seen singles tennis players pass to their teammates more.

 :lol

I take back what I said about the ESPN Insider article then!  I am too poor to pay for it :-\
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 02, 2007, 11:12:50 AM
Who are the fuckers who pay for that? This is the internet and I demand that all content be free.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 11:13:20 AM
Also, looks like Eddie Jordan clinched the coaching gig for the All-Star game.  That is pretty epic.  When has that happened in Washington, Mandark?  Never.  Is Hell freezing over?
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 02, 2007, 11:15:40 AM
So Amare had 23 rebounds last night. Man Nash just makes his teammates so much better. NASHNASHNASHNASHNASHNASH!!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 11:19:05 AM
Amare and Marion would be studs and Marion was a stud before Nash.  The team is too talented for someone to say Nash should be MVP.  Now stick him on a meh roster, like Charlotte or something and if they were to win - the argument would be pretty strong.

Jamison looks out for sure through the All-Star break at the very least.  The Wizards are now 0-6 when The Big Three are not intact.  Eddie Jordan needs to figure out something, so that they can at least break even going into the All-Star break.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 02, 2007, 11:25:13 AM
People claim that Amare and Marion need to be spoon-fed to be successful. Clearly there's evidence that suggests this isn't the case with Marion, however let's look it through a different perspective. If Nash didn't have such great finishers does anyone think he'd be averaging 12 assists per game? Spoon-feed the ball to Dampier and he'll fumble it and then kick it out of bounds. Nash needs his teammates as much as they need him. 

Package Butler for Gasol. You heard me.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 11:28:04 AM
That's a pretty bad idea.

And furthermore, Butler and what?  We've got very few moveable pieces and the ones that someone might want, like the budding Andray Blatche, have too much upside to trade in my opinion.  We'd end up losing either Etan Thomas or Brendan Haywood in a deal and while not the big defensive starter the team obviously needs, I think they'll be great bench bodies when the team adds that dynamic further down the line.  They're building depth from the inside out.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 11:29:19 AM
Also, the real travesty is that the team could've had Gasol, but we drafted Kwame >:(
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 02, 2007, 11:35:52 AM
Blame Jordan.

Gasol is not a bad defender. In January he averaged nearly three blocks a game. And he's a great post player, which will allow Washington to play an inside-out game.

Butler a scrub and a draft pick for Gasol would be steal for Washington. West wouldn't do that deal, but Washington should offer it anyway.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 11:38:31 AM
Considering that he's asking for the entire Bulls team in return for Gasol, I don't think he'd deal Gasol for that.  I'd probably accept that deal.

They really do need someone who can play inside.  I don't get how Thomas, Haywood and Jamison could be so big and built, but afraid to get physical.  Seriously, and I'm not joking, just looking at games... Arenas is the most physical player on the floor.  He gets so many free throw opportunities because he will push hard towards the basket and earn those fouls.  The guy must be in great shape or something.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 02, 2007, 11:43:45 AM
If West wants something like Gordan and Deng, then he's nuts. Just parting with one of those players would be tough.

Yeah you have to be in shape to play physically, but it's more of a mental mindset. When a player like Vince Carter goes inside he attempts to avoid contact, while players like Bryant, Arenas, and Iverson initiate contact. Jamison is as soft as his college teammate.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Mandark on February 02, 2007, 12:01:11 PM
Also, the real travesty is that the team could've had Gasol, but we drafted Kwame >:(

The REAL travesty is that we could have traded the pick for Elton Brand.  For whatever reasons (not wanting to deal with Jerry Krause, too much faith in Kwame) MJ didn't pull the trigger, and the Clippers traded a lower pick for him.

Gasol's a good player, but not a great fit for the Wizards.  They play at one of the fastest paces in the league and generate a lot of fast-break points.  Gasol's a post player who allegedly asked for a trade because he couldn't fit in with Memphis' new run-and-gun style.

If the Wizards could get him on the cheap, I'd be for it, but I've grown awfully used to having Butler around.

Quote from: Willco
Also, looks like Eddie Jordan clinched the coaching gig for the All-Star game.  That is pretty epic.  When has that happened in Washington, Mandark?  Never.  Is Hell freezing over?

Eddie should yank Arenas after six minutes, then not put him back in until garbage time at the end.  Gilbert will then use the snub to motivate himself for the second half of the season!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 02, 2007, 12:08:25 PM
:lol

At some point, the Wizards are going to have to get a defensive body and/or someone  that can play in the post.  They just won't beat the top tier teams without the ability to make defensive stops and score inside.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Van Cruncheon on February 02, 2007, 12:10:48 PM
lock this poll as it lacks a mupepe option
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 02, 2007, 12:16:16 PM
Even a run and gun team plays half-court sets. And for a guy who can play center, he's not the worst person to have at the five-spot for a running team. It's not like he's currently struggling for Memphis. In January he averaged 22 points on 54% shooting, with 11 boards, 3.4 assists, and 2.7 blocks.

lock this poll as it lacks a mupepe option
Mupepe doesn't make the posters around him better. Has FoC's game improved? Amnintenho's?
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Mandark on February 10, 2007, 07:44:35 AM
Oh, for fuck's sake. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/09/AR2007020902293.html)

Nothing to do with the MVP race, but I don't feel like dignifying this with its own thread.
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: The Fake Shemp on February 10, 2007, 12:10:09 PM
Yeah, the Wizards really need to lose another player in this time of crisis.  Someone trade him for Gasol!
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Flannel Boy on February 10, 2007, 07:41:11 PM
Yeah, the Wizards really need to lose another player in this time of crisis.  Someone trade him for Gasol!

 >:(
Title: Re: Who is the NBA MVP?
Post by: Phoenix Dark on February 10, 2007, 08:34:53 PM
Gasol is a very consistant player who happens to be a damn good ballplayer. I'll never understand why Memphis is willing to give him up so quickly. I'd rather build a team around Gasol than any player Memphis may (or may not) get in the draft.

Hakim Warrak isn't consistant enough to fill in Gasol's shoes.