THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Van Cruncheon on March 31, 2007, 08:36:32 PM

Title: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Van Cruncheon on March 31, 2007, 08:36:32 PM: this movie was one giant *fantastically* shot chase scene with some brilliant physical acting from clive owen and the gal who played kee, but man i've never felt so apathetic towards what should be emotional and traumatic events in a movie ever. maf sez they gutted the fuck out of the book, and what we get is a masterpiece of cinematography with completely underdeveloped characters in a movie that really SHOULD be about the human condition and the characters what participate in its renewal.

i liked it, but i think cuaron also missed the mark. again, there's so very little to fault in the cinematography and visual direction, and clive owen deserves ridiculous praise for his performance. in the end, though, there's no real story or character beyond the few underdeveloped exchanges between theo and julian or between jasper and theo punctuating scenes of people staggering or lurching. it may be the best realization of dystopia put to film, but it's also directorial masturbation with the plus being it's easy to understand how cuaron got off. ironically, in a movie about the end of humanity, there was very little human interest. lolz me.

3.5/5 stars.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: brawndolicious on March 31, 2007, 08:49:28 PM: What did MAF say the movie shouldn't have cut out?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: captainbiotch on March 31, 2007, 09:34:08 PM: I thought the same, but u sayz it betters
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: BlueTsunami on March 31, 2007, 10:11:14 PM: I also felt nearly the same. I had posted about the ending being sort of a cop out...no real closure on GAF and get ATTACKED GWARG. The Cinematography was hot hot hot but I didn't really feel anything for any of the characters.

But in a way, I've accepted the explanation that is. We've jumped into this guys life and see him from that point till the end....so it did have the jarring effect on purpose. We weren't eased into the story and we were finding out all these relavations with this dude in one long scene.

Anyways, It has to look amazing on HDDVD
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Flannel Boy on March 31, 2007, 10:19:40 PM: It seems like a movie that should have been longer and more fleshed out.

However they did pick a nice song during the closing credits. ;)

[insert spoiler here] though not one of my favorite Lennon songs. Not by a long shot [/end the damn spoiler ova here]
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on March 31, 2007, 10:33:25 PM: So much of the book was cut or merged with other elements so we could have time to watch everyone get killed off. I mean one of the primary aspects of the book was the traumatic event surrounding theo's own child in the past.

In the movie its just like 'oh he died of the flu'. They merged a few characters and axed scores of others to create this giant chase scene.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: ToxicAdam on March 31, 2007, 10:41:19 PM: Wierd, I just went and saw the movie last night.

Similar feelings, except I feel the hallowness of the movie could have been redeemed with a better ending. I get the fact that it was supposed to represent hope .. but it could have been done in a different manner with more concrete details.

Judged purely as an action movie, it's one of the best I have seen in years. The battle scene at the end was as good or better than anything in SPR, The Pianist or any other big budget Hollywood movie. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: brawndolicious on March 31, 2007, 11:38:27 PM: The ending was fine. There's no way you can say "oh ok now this baby's going to spend the rest of it's life in a plastic bubble" and since the movie was more about how easily society can go to shit, I don't really care.

In yellow (to make it a spoiler) could you say why they should've included more details about theo's child?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Mandark on March 31, 2007, 11:51:27 PM: I don't think more dwelling on the kid's death would have helped the movie. I already felt like they used it as a device to fit Owen's character into a neat little box: He used to be an Idealist, but suffered a Traumatic Event, and now is Cynical. Maybe it works better in the book, but I can't help thinking that in the movie, you'd just wind up with a series of flashbacks like the ones Tom Cruise had in The Minority Report.

Also, there's that slightly cheesy sci-fi tendency to throw in some clever extrapolations of the main plot device. What if there were no more babies and people were dying? They'd market a suicide drug, with the same comforting style as sleeping pill commercials! I kind of felt like, I dunno, they were a bit too pleased with themselves for coming up with that.

Compared to 28 Days Later, which I love pretty unconditionally, where they just let the characters interact with each other, and you get a sense of the impact through that.

But yeah, the cinematography was gorgeous, Clive Owen's great, and the pacing of the chases and lulls was really well done. I've written too much about what I didn't like, (at least I'm not carping about Y Tu Mama Tambien yet!) but I really enjoyed it. As an action movie, it's right up there.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 12:49:03 AM: *SPOILERS* wtf is our spoilers tag?

I dunno I think it was important that in the book the main character obviously feels guilt over his kids death since it WAS his fault. I also dont think the main character was nearly miserable enough to make the change from being a completely passive 'dead inside' kinda guy to someone who is changing the fate of the human race. (like in the book)

Granted a book has a lot more time to be character driven, but why bother doing it at all if you cant do it right? Nice cinematography aside I really didnt find the movies subject or characters exciting.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: G The Resurrected on April 01, 2007, 12:50:14 AM: Quote from: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 12:49:03 AM
I dunno I think it was important that in the book the main character obviously feels guilt over his kids death. I also dont think the main character was nearly miserable enough to make the change from being a completely passive 'dead inside' kinda guy to someone who is changing the fate of the human race.

I Agree you stole the words out of my mouth, the movie was still good.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 12:53:05 AM: I almost thing the movie shouldn't have been called children of men, its so altered and sanitized for film format that a lot of the punch from the book is completely lost. I mean EVERYTHING is different. Just call it whatever it would be if it was Sci Fi Channel's movie of the week.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: G The Resurrected on April 01, 2007, 12:59:54 AM: is it a sin that i dont know what book your talking about?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: brawndolicious on April 01, 2007, 01:00:21 AM: I need to read the book. See what the original idea was.
Quote from: G on April 01, 2007, 12:59:54 AM
is it a sin that i dont know what book your talking about?
The movie was adapted from a book.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: BlueTsunami on April 01, 2007, 01:01:09 AM: Does the book really go in depth with the cause of the infertility of the human race and beyond the whole Child Project thing at the end? It just left me wanting more.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: G The Resurrected on April 01, 2007, 01:02:32 AM: Quote from: am nintenho on April 01, 2007, 01:00:21 AM
I need to read the book. See what the original idea was.
Quote from: G on April 01, 2007, 12:59:54 AM
is it a sin that i dont know what book your talking about?
The movie was adapted from a book.

Well yea no shit, I need to read it too. God I wish there were more zombie books. I dont read much but when I read its all about zombies or crazy diseases. Who wrote the book?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 01:08:22 AM: BlueTsunami:

Its never really the focus as in its not something thats discovered.

Which is what was kinda the problem with the movie. I mean the movie suggested shit was going on but really there isnt.

See...I mean I could explain but there are SO many things different in the movie from the book that uhh, well none of it would make sense to you. There's far more focus on the established govt actions, and the fishies are a small group, and theo used to be a member of the current govt and has some sway, and the current govt isnt one man, but one many surrounded by a panel of members..julian was not a previous love interest in the book but rather a previous student as theo is a professor, kee or whatever isnt in the book and isnt the one pregnant.

Its ALL different.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: G The Resurrected on April 01, 2007, 01:15:32 AM: Please write the cliffnotes version i so far like your telling better than the movie now.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 01:36:20 AM: just buy the book, its cheap
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: G The Resurrected on April 01, 2007, 01:44:09 AM: If i remember it tomorrow I will.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: BlueTsunami on April 01, 2007, 01:50:24 AM: Not to change the thread subject but I'm seriously considering buying on of those Ebook readers that are made to look like Ink and Paper (so its easy on the eyes). Just for this book.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 01:51:09 AM: its a good book
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: G The Resurrected on April 01, 2007, 01:52:35 AM: Quote from: BlueTsunami on April 01, 2007, 01:50:24 AM
Not to change the thread subject but I'm seriously considering buying on of those Ebook readers that are made to look like Ink and Paper (so its easy on the eyes). Just for this book.

You mean a E-ink? those very thin readers? Wait till the color ones hit in june. Same battery life but with color. Gonna revolutionize the table top book.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: drozmight on April 01, 2007, 02:49:04 AM: lol, movie not like book so it bad, haha.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 02:56:41 AM: lol, movie not actually a good movie so it bad, haha.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: bluemax on April 01, 2007, 05:21:44 AM: Quote from: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 12:49:03 AM
Granted a book has a lot more time to be character driven, but why bother doing it at all if you cant do it right? Nice cinematography aside I really didnt find the movies subject or characters exciting.

I think this is the key thing we're forgetting here. I do agree with a lot of the general sentiment but some of it stems from the fact that they only have so much time to expound things in the movie.

I wasn't that bothered by the ending, although part of me would've liked to see maybe 5 minutes more of what happened but I can accept nothing as well.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: drozmight on April 01, 2007, 09:14:52 AM: Quote from: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 02:56:41 AM
lol, movie not actually a good movie so it bad, haha.

me kinda like it, not enough to buy.

In all seriousness though, it was kinda depressing. At the end all these people are dying and I'm like, "haha.... :("
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Solo on April 01, 2007, 10:10:19 AM: Ive actually heard that the book isn't all that great, and that Cuaron essentially made a great film out of decent material. Never read it myself though, so I cant really judge one way or the other.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 10:39:15 AM: its a good book not a great book, the author does a great job writing characters.

The movie is not a 'great movie' because it doesnt deliver everything it needs to. Sure its a beautifully shot movie, but the character development is crap, the beginning and ending are rushed, and the subject material is so altered that people who have read the book cant even fill in the blanks left by the movie.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Flannel Boy on April 01, 2007, 01:28:48 PM: Only in a movie could the event of a young, single, black woman getting pregnant be considered miraculous.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Cheebs on April 01, 2007, 01:30:35 PM: Quote from: Malek: King of Kings on April 01, 2007, 01:28:48 PM

Only in a movie could the event of a young, single, black woman getting pregnant be considered miraculous.

Oh my god. :lol
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: BlueTsunami on April 01, 2007, 03:48:25 PM: Quote from: Malek: King of Kings on April 01, 2007, 01:28:48 PM

Only in a movie could the event of a young, single, black woman getting pregnant be considered miraculous.

Your so evil Malek :rofl
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Mandark on April 01, 2007, 09:39:17 PM: I don't know how it works in the book, but I don't think residual guilt over his kid's death wouldn't have added much to the movie. It probably would have come off as obvious, flow-chart style character development.

It probably wouldn't have made his character's decisions that much more believable, either. I mean, the fate of the entire human race is at stake. How much surplus motivation do we really need to see?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Van Cruncheon on April 01, 2007, 09:45:19 PM: but the movie DID have the residual guilt -- especially when kee says she'd name the kid "dylan". although i don't think that's the point either me or maf was making -- the point is, i didn't really care that much when theo died, because he really didn't have any sympathetic angle outside of his clearly expressed struggle to ensure his quest succeeded, even at the cost of his own life. that cost doesn't mean much when there isn't much to identify with.

in the book, his son dies as a result of his own carelessness; he backs over the kid with a car, which costs him his relationship with his wife and, more importantly, his activistic idealism. it's why he's a shell of a man. in the movie, he only seems an apathetic shell of a man, but we never see who he was before or really understand what a radical difference this is -- we're just told he used to be more idealistic with a couple throwaway lines. i think a flashback to a time when he lived more fiercely for others would make his redemption more powerful.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: dsn2k on April 01, 2007, 10:15:11 PM: you know I kind of liked the lack of details, I never read the book so all I know is what Ive seen from the film but I liked the fact It gave the viewer something to think about after, rarely does a film keep me engaged in discussion 6 months after release, thats a real accomplishment.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 10:24:58 PM: the movie didnt really give the viewer anything to think about that wasn't the result of a poor plot. The book falls back on its characters because the story isnt actually ABOUT the infertility of the human race. Its about Theo.

The movie takes away everything that makes the journey MEAN anything for Theo so at the end youre like huh. Yes, Theo did 'save the day' but he was previously an activist in the movie plot, and at this point had nothing left BUT his beliefs. I sorta kinda saw that coming, and for that reason it didnt give me much to think about.

The movie focused FAR more on the baby and the 'situations' surrounding a person having a baby in this era, unfortunately to make this work a lot of new elements would have needed to be created FOR the movie.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Then they kill him at the end which is bonkers cause in the book he doesnt die, he lives on a changed man.
[close]
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Flannel Boy on April 01, 2007, 10:55:44 PM: We need this smiley. (http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/941/maf2uq6.jpg) Cloud get to work!
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: dsn2k on April 01, 2007, 10:56:26 PM: Quote from: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 10:24:58 PM

The movie focused FAR more on the baby and the 'situations' surrounding a person having a baby in this era, unfortunately to make this work a lot of new elements would have needed to be created FOR the movie.

I agree with that, to put simply it wasnt about the postman but the letter he delivered, and the consequences it would have on a traumatic vision of the future we saw through the journey.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
his death does infact validate that conclusion looking at it
[close]
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 11:03:24 PM: There wasn't enough of an ending to make the movie satisfy that line of thought. The movie ended with Theo, as if it was supposed to be about Theo, when in fact it wasn't. ANY movie can leave you with a 'what does the future hold for this movie world?!' feeling by simply ending without any information provided in the movie suggesting what MIGHT happen. All we know is that the kid will be a part of some project we know nothing about.. aside from the fact they are supposedly not 'evil'.

The movie leaves you thinking about things the movie should have provided.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Flannel Boy on April 01, 2007, 11:09:55 PM: Why is England deluged by illegal immigrants and not this paradise in the Azores? Why hasn't another government just invaded?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Van Cruncheon on April 01, 2007, 11:10:36 PM: because V went on vacation there.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Mandark on April 01, 2007, 11:19:50 PM: Quote from: Drinky Crow on April 01, 2007, 09:45:19 PM
i think a flashback to a time when he lived more fiercely for others would make his redemption more powerful.

Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think the flashbacks would have shown anything about his character that you can't already figure out from the passing references and the friendship with Michael Caine.

Theo is basically a post-apocalyptic Rick Blaine: A former idealist turned cynic who eventually redeems himself by putting aside his personal emotional trauma and making an unselfish decision (and escorting an important person to freedom, but that's besides the point).

The differences are that Rick's struggle was gradual, the final decision was up in the air, and he sacrifices a lot (his business, the protection of the authorities, the ability to schtup Ingrid Bergman for the rest of his days). MAF's absolutely right that Theo didn't have anything to lose once Julianne Moore and Michael Caine were whacked, which made it pretty predictable.

Theo's redeeming decision comes right away as soon as he realizes Key is pregnant. That kind of undercuts the whole journey of redemption thing, but could the writer have put him on the fence after it happens? With all of humanity at stake, refusing to fight the good fight would make him really unsympathetic. Like Shinji, without the excuse of being 14.

Still, I would rather have seen his involvement (emotional or physical) grow gradually, than being the result of a snap judgment. I think finding ways to show the process of the change would be a lot more effective than hammering the audience with imagery of how different the two states of mind are.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 01, 2007, 11:57:26 PM: I dunno I think my main issue is that in changing so much for the movie, they didnt change enough. I mean at some point they should have just gone all the way. The movie resembles the book only in passing references and names, so much is different that if they ran with their new direction no one would have cared and the movie would have been better for it.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Mandark on April 02, 2007, 12:18:45 AM: I was sort of thinking that. It seems like it would be really hard to pull off the backstory with the child and what it meant to Theo while still including and pacing all the chase stuff well.

They could have ditched Theo's backstory entirely, come up with a different plot device to get Clive Owen shepherding the girl, and it probably wouldn't have screwed up any of the stuff that worked.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 02, 2007, 12:24:26 AM: It was sort of a sticky situation im sure. They merged a couple key characters and invented a few others and painted themselves into a corner as far as what they COULD do with the backstory.

I dont really care if its like the book or not, but the director/writer need to pick a horse. I'd also like to say again, this movie was beautifully shot. I am getting the widescreen DVD mostly for that which MAY be kinda silly, but its still a 'good' movie at least.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Solo on April 02, 2007, 07:39:43 AM: Who says he dies in the movie? Its all very ambiguous. He is badly injured, yes, but whose to say he isnt just passed out?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 02, 2007, 10:19:28 AM: The movie supports his death more than it supports the idea that he keeps on living. There are far more things actually IN the movie that support his death. If that was not the intent, again, the movie failed at a conclusion; and its not like I can fall back on the book as proof that he lived. They did almost nothing to follow the book.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: Human Snorenado on April 03, 2007, 11:52:44 PM: Quote from: Solo on April 02, 2007, 07:39:43 AM
Who says he dies in the movie? Its all very ambiguous. He is badly injured, yes, but whose to say he isnt just passed out?

I'm pretty sure he's dead. The entire movie stays with Theo from beginning to end pretty much, and when he's dead we don't get to see anything else other than the kids voices at the end.

And this just in: drinky crow, wrong about EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: etiolate on April 08, 2007, 05:25:55 AM: I don't think the film needed more explanations of things, because I felt those 'things' really weren't that important to the film. Why people were infertile wasn't important, what happened to new york wasn't important as much as that it was gone. To learn that Theo was responisble for his son's death would have added something, but a flashback would have really scarred the film. For someo reason I felt the 'moment' of the movie, where the whole point and vibe of the movie is right there to see is not when she carries the baby out of the apartment and everyone stops, but right after that when they go back to shooting.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: TVC15 on April 08, 2007, 05:38:43 AM: Quote from: BlueTsunami on April 01, 2007, 01:01:09 AM
Does the book really go in depth with the cause of the infertility of the human race and beyond the whole Child Project thing at the end? It just left me wanting more.

http://www.exitmundi.nl/Sperm%20problem.htm

It's been theorized for a while. I don't think explaining infertility is really an issue. The author's british and they've had OMG NOT ENOUGH BABIES BEING BORN issues for like 2 decades without any sciencey explanation. I'd wager Children of Men is just a projection of that.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: drozmight on April 08, 2007, 06:00:29 AM: There is no true explanation other than God became angry with the human condition and took away his most precious gift to us.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 08, 2007, 10:33:00 AM: Children of Men had a plot that wasnt about Theo but almost none of the elements required to support that plot. The BOOK had a plot about Theo that had elements that almost always concerned Theo's character.

If youre going to go a different direction from the book with a movie, go all the fucking way.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: TakingBackSunday on April 08, 2007, 05:05:30 PM: Just watched it

UNF UNF UNF

I love this movie! I didn't read the book....but I don't fucking care, it's soooo awesome
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 08, 2007, 05:20:32 PM: why do you love it? the great long shot?
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: TakingBackSunday on April 08, 2007, 05:31:13 PM: Quote from: MrAngryFace on April 08, 2007, 05:20:32 PM
why do you love it? the great long shot?

Are you talking about the sequence where Theo was running around Belltix or whatever, looking for Kee after Luke took her? Cause yeah, that was pretty bloody fantastic.

I don't know, I just liked the movie a lot. I love Clive Owen, I particularly enjoyed Jasper (lol), the cinematography is of course wonderful, and I enjoyed the story. I don't have questions about it, it wasn't confusing–I just liked it a lot.
Title: Re: children of men: beautiful but hollow
Post by: MrAngryFace on April 08, 2007, 05:42:54 PM: The end with the combat is the long shot thats probably the best. Keeping all of that in line for so long takes some talent.