THE BORE

General => The Superdeep Borehole => Topic started by: Ichirou on April 08, 2007, 11:37:08 PM

Title: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on April 08, 2007, 11:37:08 PM

Okay, so I figure that the "Solo does the movies" thread is basically focused on reviewing newer movies of any genre, so why not do a thread focused specifically on film noir?  Each of us can contribute, reviewing and recommending movies that others might not have seen and thus gain a greater knowledge of the cinematic style known as film noir.

There was a thread about this on GAF and I recommended a bunch of movies.  I'll skip the more well-known ones and start by reviewing a relatively obscure film noir.

Nightmare Alley (1947)

One of the greatest benefits about the recent surge of film noir releases on DVD is getting to see a lot of less famous but equally good movies from an important period in American cinema.  Everyone who's even slightly familiar with noir has seen classics like The Maltese Falcon, Gilda, Touch of Evil, Double Indemnity, and Sunset Blvd.  But how many have seen stuff like The Dark Corner, Whirlpool, and Nightmare Alley?  I wonder if the fact that the former films are so famous means the latter all too often get ignored, or if instead it means that the latter actually get a shot at being seen by a wider audience by being released with a "film noir" label.  I know that, for me, the Fox and Warner Bros. film noir releases have been a godsend as they've turned me on to a lot of movies I never would have thought of seeing otherwise.  Film noir scholarship might devote time to The Dark Corner, Detour, and D.O.A., but I've yet to see a single article discussing Nightmare Alley.  Nevertheless, it's a very solid, finely crafted film.

Nightmare Alley takes place in the world of carnies, the seamy underbelly of entertainment, populated by con men, has-beens, and never-weres.  Into this world comes Stanton Carlile, played by Tyrone Power, an ambitious young guy who has dreams far beyond those of carnival life.  He suckers a mentalist into revealing the secrets of her act and, after a tragic event (which may or may not have been an accident), climbs his way out of the carnie world and gets a great nightclub act as a mentalist, performing for wealthy patrons who he fools into believing in his psychic abilities.  But a dark cloud looms over him, and the fear of returning to carnie work is never far from his mind.  He's haunted by the prophecy of the phony mentalist he stole is act from.  As Carlile takes more and more risks and attempts bigger cons, his ego begins to get the better of him, leading him to his unescapable destiny.

I was really impressed by this movie.  The life of a carnie is presented as harsh and unforgiving (almost sixty years before Carnivale presented it in much the same way), with performers having to scrape by, bribing authorities to let them do their acts, and engaging in truly degrading behavior just to make enough money to live on.  The contrast with Carlile's later nightclub acts makes us realize why someone would be so eager to escape from that lifestyle.  Tyrone Power's performance is great.  He was a matinee idol and action star (The Mark of Zorro is probably the film he's most remembered for), so I was surprised to see he was such a great actor as well.  He plays Carlile as a character with murky motives.  We're never sure whether he's someone we want to root for or not, but we want to believe that he's a good guy, even if deep down we're pretty sure he's sleaze.  His performance reminded me of Bogart's Sam Spade in The Maltese Falcon.  Carlile and Spade are very different characters, but they have one trait in common - throughout both films, we're never quite sure what's going on through their heads.

This is a fine film, and a very pleasant surprise.  I've been let down by a few of the films in Fox's film noir DVD line, but this isn't one of them.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: HyperZoneWasAwesome on April 09, 2007, 02:13:36 AM

It's going on the list, sounds great.
TCM runs a whole lotta great flicks, the last noir I saw on there was...
(http://www.afi.com/wise/films/set_up/images/poster.gif)

A really great potboiler about a has-been fighter who's manager fixes his latest fight and doesn't even tell him about, confident that he'll lose anyway and keep more of the dough.  Robert Ryan might have been the craggiest leading man who's ever lived, is great as the hopeful but haggard palooka.  The photography is really great and the bloodlust among the spectators is a kick to watch.  Its a highly refreshing alternative to every "happy" boxing movie (Cinderella Man and other shit your loved ones made you watch).

another thing I love about film noir, the posters kick so much awesome.  Every film mentioned in this thread should have some of its likely-to-be-awesome art shown alongside any praise it gets.
(http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/170446.1020.A.jpg)

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Solo on April 09, 2007, 07:00:36 AM

Awesome thread, Ichirou. I fully support this. Hell, there are still a ton of noirs I need to see, so hopefully this thread will unearth some hidden gems.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Solo on April 09, 2007, 07:20:42 AM

Those are two of THE quintessential noirs. Bogart playing Marlowe and Spade, directed by Hawks and Huston? You cant beat that.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on April 09, 2007, 09:40:30 AM

Quote from: Ruzbeh on April 09, 2007, 07:04:47 AM

Those 40s and 50s movies are totally awesome. I saw The Maltese Falcon and The Big Sleep, I don't know if they count as film noir whatever the fuck that means, but I enjoyed The Maltese Falcon. Sooo awesome. :-*

The Maltese Falcon signals the beginning of the style, according to most critics, with Touch of Evil signalling the end of the period of "classic" film noir.  Maltese Falcon is also one of my favorite noirs - there's just so much to that movie, and Bogart gives one of his very best performances in it.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Solo on April 09, 2007, 09:45:37 AM

MF is my fav noir film, as Ive said many times. But the one thing that Big Sleep does better, and the reason it holds a special place in my heart, is bring in the sizzling element of the Bacall-Bogart pairing. I love watching those two sling dialogue back and forth. Its such a treat to watch.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on April 10, 2007, 02:25:28 AM

D.O.A. (1950)

Insurance Frank Bigelow (Edmond O’Brien) walks into a police station to report a murder.  When the police ask who has been murdered, Bigelow simply answers, “I was.”  Someone has poisoned Frank Bigelow, and he must find out who, and why, before he dies.  So begins D.O.A., one of the most original film noirs, and one that’s been remade (in 1988 with Dennis Quaid and Meg Ryan) and ripped off (Crank, which features Jason Statham as a hitman, uses the concept with the added conceit of the adrenaline rush slowing down the poison’s effects).  As reviewers have mentioned, it’s a high concept idea – a man solving his own murder – before the term “high concept” came into fashion.  Bigelow, a simple accountant, has been mysteriously poisoned with a deadly toxin and, as he relates to the police in flashback, he has embarked upon a desperate investigation to find out the reasons behind it.

D.O.A. is technically a B-noir, and as such, there are no “big” names in it aside from Edmond O’Brien, a fine actor whose work has today been mostly forgotten in favor of flashier, more charismatic stars.  What O’Brien brings to the film is something that Quaid and Statham lack – he’s the everyman, the working slob, nobody particularly special, certainly no one you would imagine would be embroiled in anything seedy enough to lead to his death.  The anonymity of this man, an average human being, and the tragic unfairness of his fate, is what makes D.O.A. a quintessential noir.  As the film goes on, O’Brien appears more and more desperate.  He can feel the grains of sand slipping through the hourglass, and he knows he only very little time left.  This sense of desperation serves the film well, and keeps the story moving forward at a breakneck pace.  This is an exciting film, and a good mystery.  When the answers come, they actually make sense within the context of the story, and don’t contradict anything that’s been previously established (unlike many modern mystery movies, which aren’t afraid to cheat in order to create an artificial sense of suspense).

One of the great things about film noirs is that they’re not afraid to kill off their protagonists.  Very rarely will you see a film noir fall prey to compassion and decide to spare its protagonists from their grisly fate.  While watching D.O.A., you get to like Frank Bigelow.  He’s not a bad guy.  He’s not perfect (he has a girlfriend but a bit of a wandering eye), but O’Brien plays him as someone who is fundamentally decent.  You might even start to feel that it’s unfair that a guy like that has to die…maybe you even start to hope that a doctor will appear with a miracle cure by the end of the film.  The 1988 remake got around this by ending before the protagonist’s death.  The original film is a bit braver than that.

This movie is essential watching for any film noir enthusiast.  It’s one of the greats, and is available on numerous public domain DVDs, so it’s also quite easy to find.


(http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/267564.1020.A.jpg)

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on April 23, 2007, 12:47:03 AM

I wish someone else would contribute reviews to this thread, but I'll keep pressing on by myself...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/46/TheBigClock.jpg)

The Big Clock (1948)

A minor noir from journeyman director John Farrow (who also directed the Robert Mitchum noir His Kind of Woman), The Big Clock uses a plot device almost as clever as D.O.A.  Where in D.O.A. a dead man was investigating his own murder, in The Big Clock a man investigates a murder, only to find that all the clues indicate that he himself is the murderer!

Ray Milland plays George Stroud, the editor of an investigative crime magazine which has received some amount of fame for its investigative reports which have led to the captures of several criminals.  While preparing for a weekend getaway with his wife, he is confronted by his boss, Earl Janath, (played by the delightfully smarmy Charles Laughton) who orders him to work through the weekend.  Milland's character is distraught and instead of meeting with his wife, goes bar-hopping, ending up spending the night at a woman's home - coincidentally, said woman just happens to be his boss's mistress.  He escapes early next morning, and after he does, his boss arrives, argues with and kills his mistress, and noticing that someone has been there before him, decides to frame said person for the murder (not knowing, of course, that the person he's framing is his own employee).  He orders Milland to investigate the murder, and Milland is tasked with the doubly difficult task of covering up his own tracks from the prior night, which would seem to indicate he is the murderer, as well as finding the real killer.  The big clock, then, is a fairly obvious thematic device indicating that time is running out, as well as being an actual gigantic mechanical clock in which Stroud is hiding in at the beginning of the story (the film is told mostly through flashback).

The plot is circuitous but clever, and if Milland's character seems to lack the requisite desperation at the beginning of the film, the slowly increasing tension as he finds piece after piece of evidence that seems to implicate him is masterfully achieved.  The film actually has a number of very funny moments, and as noirs go, it doesn't really dip into the particularly nasty end of the spectrum (in the novel the film is based on, Stroud actually has sex with Janath's mistress, and doesn't just pass out on her couch).  A special mention must be made of the supporting cast, which is very solid (Laughton's wife, Elsa Lanchester, plays a crazy painter whose work Stroud is very fond of). The movie is a very fun ride, even if it's not particularly deep.

The Big Clock was remade in 1987 as No Way Out, with Kevin Costner in the Stroud role and Gene Hackman in the Janath role (instead of an editor and a publisher, the two characters become a US naval officer and a US senator, respectively).  The remake is not inferior to the original, but neither does it surpass it, and contains an additional somewhat unbelievable plot twist at the end which was missing from the original.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: HyperZoneWasAwesome on April 23, 2007, 01:38:43 AM

I would like to congratulate Ichirou's on his excellent taste in film.  I have nothing more to add to his critiques rather then, well-done.  That, and the 80's DOA remake doesn't suck.  Its really, really 80's-ish, but it's pretty slickly done and has a good, charming, sweaty performance from Dennis Quaid.

As for Noir's, well, I've been playing a lot of Max Payne 2 lately, and its pretty dang awesome.  Why didn't more games didn't rip off its atmosphere instead of its gimmicks?

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on April 27, 2007, 05:48:46 AM

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Thisgun.jpg)

This Gun For Hire (1942)

I saw this film a few years ago when it was released as part of Fox's film noir line, and I was surprised at how many classic elements of noir it contains; in this film, about a double-crossed hitman (Alan Ladd) who pursues the man who hired and later betrayed him lie the seeds of film classics such as Le Samourai and Point Blank.  The basic plot, in fact, is quite similar to Le Samourai's (Ladd even wears a trenchcoat, just as Alain Delon does).

Alan Ladd plays Raven, a professional killer who is hired by the ultra sleazy Willard Gates (played in such a despicable way by Laird Cregar that after his first scene, you eagerly await his inevitable demise).  After Raven completes his task, he's betrayed.  Raven survives Gates's double-cross, though, and embarks on a trip to L.A. to wreak vengeance on Gates and anybody else involved in the contract killing gone wrong.  Along the way he ends up kidnapping the girlfriend of the police detective who's on his case (a rather bland role played by Robert Preston, who does the best he can with the material at hand).  The girlfriend, played by the luscious Veronica Lake, ends up sympathizing with him (classic Stockholm Syndrome), and is touched by the hidden decency that lurks within the killer, especially after seeing Raven risk his neck to save a cat from stray police bullets (a scene which may have inspired a very similar one in Frank Miller's graphic novel Batman: Year One).

This film marks the first time Lake and Ladd appeared on-screen together.  The obvious sparks between the two would cause them to be paired up again in several other film noirs.  I know it's sacrilegious to say so, but I prefer this pairing to the classic Bogey-Bacall one; not because they're better actors (Lake may be better than Bacall, but Ladd is no Bogart), but because their chemistry is more palpable.  The two apparently didn't get along at all in real life, but for some reason the animosity translates to onscreen sparks.  Poor Preston doesn't even stand a chance (even though we know he'll end up with the girl because, well, he's a police officer, Raven's a hitman, and this picture has to conform to the Breen code).

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Solo on April 28, 2007, 06:36:17 AM

This is one I have seen parts of, but never in its entirety, but I am interested in doing so.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on April 28, 2007, 06:56:55 AM

Quote from: Solo on April 28, 2007, 06:36:17 AM

This is one I have seen parts of, but never in its entirety, but I am interested in doing so.

Dude, you should put up a few reviews, I'm interested in what noirs you'd recommend.  There's so much stuff I haven't seen yet...

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Solo on April 29, 2007, 06:19:23 AM

I will, when I have the time. I have 13 more days of hell (aka survey camp, which is basically 12 hours a day of unpaid fieldwork/labor that engineering students have to do once before they graduate, and since I graduate next Christmas, this is the last time I can do it).

After then, I will do lots more stuff.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Mupepe on April 29, 2007, 06:21:32 AM

i feel distinguished mentally-challenged, but what's noir?  :(

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Solo on April 29, 2007, 06:22:14 AM

ZOMG. Give him the dissertation, Ichirou!

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on April 29, 2007, 09:35:27 AM

(some parts of this cannibalized from a post I made at GAF a year or two ago, so sorry if my answer seems disjointed):

Film noir is either a genre or style (critics are in disagreement over the exact definition of the term) prevalent in '40s and '50s American cinema, specifically crime dramas or films relating to the seamier side of life.  I hesitate to call it a genre because film noir only became recognized after the major period was already over - and directors such as Billy Wilder, Robert Siodmak and Fritz Lang didn't consider themselves to be working on films in the "film noir" genre...they were doing dramas, crime films, women's pictures, social message films, etc.  Paul Schrader and Alain Silver consider it to be a style, not a genre, resulting from the influence of expressionist German film and the German filmmakers themselves who'd moved to the US shortly prior US involvement in WWII.

Visually film noir is instantly recognizable by its use of low-key, high-contrast lighting, an unsettling look with roots in German cinematography.  Thematically, film noir draws from hardboiled detective novels, crime melodramas, and pulp fiction.   The characters in film noir are often morally ambiguous, and the protagonists in film noir can often be just as corrupt as the antagonists.  In terms of story structure, many film noirs utilize flashbacks, voiceover narration, and other unusual storytelling devices.   The world as presented by film noir is a dangerous, capricious place.  The worldview of film noir is very pessimistic and many of the films in the style deal with existentialist themes.

Some of the most notable films that fall into the film noir category (which I haven't dealt with in this thread because they're so famous):

The Maltese Falcon
Double Indemnity
The Postman Always Rings Twice
Sunset Boulevard
Laura
The Big Sleep
Gilda
Out of the Past
Kiss Me Deadly
The Night of the Hunter
Touch of Evil

For a modern example of a movie that apes film noir, look at Sin City, which is basically an homage/parody of film noir (femme fatales, morally ambiguous protagonists, hardboiled narration, unhappy endings, etc., etc. - all are classic elements of the style).

Wikipedia's page on film noir is remarkably complete, so I recommend you read that if you want to get a more in-depth feel of what film noir is all about.  I have some books on the subject but they're all back in Puerto Rico. :(

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Solo on April 30, 2007, 06:15:00 AM

There you go Mupepe. I HIGHLY recommend checking out some of these films. Its such a FUCKAWESOME period of filmmaking (I know, its a genre, but I always associate it with a time period, 1942-1959), and Ive rarely seen anything that I didnt love from it. Get on it now, Mupepe!

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Fresh Prince on April 30, 2007, 06:18:37 AM

I watched Third Man it was good.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:11:39 AM

RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE

I made this post a few days back and suggested some movies to Glossu Raban, but after seeing what he considers to be entertainment I realized that he's probably never going to check any of these movies out and I actually spent some time summarizing all these movies and I don't want my hard work to go to waste so annnnnyway:

The Maltese Falcon - Classic Dashiell Hammett adaptation starring Humphrey Bogart in the role that made him a full-fledged star.  He plays sleazy private eye Sam Spade who gets dragged into the conflict of a group of shady characters searching for the titular bird.

Touch of Evil - One of Orson Welles' best movies, and the only one aside from Citizen Kane that is regularly discussed as an unabashed masterpiece.  A mexican detective on the way to his honeymoon gets stuck in a border town and has to deal with a corrupt police force, led by Welles himself.

Out of the Past - Robert Mitchum in one of his greatest roles ever, as a guy trying to escape a femme fatale.  He changes his identity but just as he's about to settle down, someone discovers his prior identity as a private eye and jeopardizes everything he's managed to accomplish since leaving his old life.

Gilda - A rather confusing story about an ex-con who gets hired at a nightclub somewhere in South America, only to fall in love with the boss's wife (and an old flame of his), Gilda, played by the lovely Rita Hayworth.

Double Indemnity - Another femme fatale story, and probaby the definitive film noir.  An insurance agent is (willingly) dragged into a scam a woman has hatched to have her husband killed off so she can get the insurance money.

Sunset Boulevard - A noirish look at Hollywood, as an aspiring screenwriter accidentally wanders into the life of an aging silent screen star and gets caught up in her madness.

The Postman Always Rings Twice - Basically the same story as Double Indemnity except the insurance agent is now a drifter and the whole thing plays out at a little rest stop/restaurant in the middle of nowhere.

Leave Her to Heaven - A rare color noir about a man who falls in love with a woman who will stop at nothing to get him to marry her.  A clear precursor to stuff like Fatal Attraction.

The Killers - A Robert Siodmak film based on an Ernest Hemingway short story.  When a boxer is killed by a group of hitmen, an investigator must piece together the story of the dead man's life to see what led to his death.

D.O.A. - An insurance agent is given a slow-acting poison for which there is no cure.  In the little time left, he must investigate his own murder and find out who killed him.

Sorry, Wrong Number - Pieced together through a series of flashbacks told through phone conversations, the story of an unraveling marriage is told, ending in a murder contract.  But who contracted the hit?  And who is the target?

Criss Cross - A security guard gets lured into being the inside man at a bank heist by his ex-wife and her new boyfriend.  A series of double and triple crosses inevitably follow.  Who'll be left alive by the final reel?

Night and the City - A con man tries to go legitimate by entering the wrestling business, but in his quest for riches, steps on the toes of just about every punk and crime boss in post-war London.

Thieves' Highway - More of a tract an the plight of the working man than a film noir, it deals with a man whose father, a trucker, is permanently disabled in an accident.  The man (played by Richard Conte), goes after the employer who's indirectly responsible due to his negligent (and downright illegal) business practices.

Rififi - One of the classic examples of french film noir (though directed by an American who was blacklisted back in the States), and considered to be one of the best heist movies of all time.  Stuff like the vastly inferior (but still entertaining) The Score and Ocean's Eleven owes a massive debt to this movie.  Renowned for its famous thirty-minute long heist, conducted in absolute silence and without a soundtrack, yet still riveting to this day.

Detour - Sometimes fate lays a finger on you, or me, or anyone, for no apparent reason.  A traveling musician finds this out when the person he hitches a ride with accidentally dies, and all evidence seems to point to him as the culprit.  His attempts to erase the evidence just dig him in deeper into a hole, until there's no escape.

Scarlet Street - An older man, an artist by trade, falls in love with a scarlet woman, who uses him for his skills until he's no longer useful, then discards him.  His revenge brings ruin upon both of them.

Key Largo - Another classic Bogey movie, this time pairing him with Lauren Bacall opposite Edward G. Robinson.  Ostensibly based on an Ernest Hemingway storyline, though the movie bares little resemblance to the original story.

The Big Sleep - Bogey & Bacall's first pairing, and one of Solo's favorite movies (tho I'm not really a fan).  Based on a Raymond Chandler novel, Bogey plays Phillip Marlowe, a private eye hired by a wealthy old industrialist to find a missing man, only to find that the man's disappearance is inextricably linked to the old man's femme fatale daughters.

Laura - One of the most famous film noirs, directed by Otto Preminger, in which a private eye falls in love with a dead woman after looking at her portrait.

Whirlpool - An interesting, if somewhat ridiculous noir, involving a hypnotist who makes a woman commit petty crimes, escalating more and more until things end up in murder.

The Dark Corner - An innocent (?) man is being pursued by someone he doesn't recognize, for reasons he can't understand.  Another film about the vicissitudes of fate.

This Gun For Hire - The story of a hitman with a conscience who's being hunted down by someone who ordered a murder contract and wants to get rid of anything that might lead back to him.  Probably one of the main inspirations for Melville's Le Samourai.

The Big Clock - Directed by John Farrow, apparently a journeyman director, and starring Ray Milland as a reporter assigned to investigate a murder, only to find that all the clues seem to point to himself as the culprit.  With time running out, he has to find out who's setting him up, and why.

Nightmare Alley - One of my favorites, starring Tyrone Power as a carny who's out to make a name for himself and drag himself out of the gutter of the carnival circuit and into respectability, no matter the cost.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: TVC15 on March 17, 2008, 04:14:27 AM

Quote

Touch of Evil  - One of Orson Welles' best movies, and the only one aside from Citizen Kane that is regularly discussed as an unabashed masterpiece.

Fuck no!  Chimes at Midnight and The Trial are much better movies.  And the version of Touch of Evil we're talking about isn't even Orson's own cut.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:15:55 AM

I never said they weren't better movies.  I said it's the only one aside from Citizen Kane that is regularly discussed as an unabashed masterpiece.  And it's true.  There's plenty of critical discussion on Touch of Evil - The Trial? Not so much.

Also, the original Touch of Evil wasn't Welles' own cut either.  At least the new version's changes follow his 57 page memo to the letter.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: TVC15 on March 17, 2008, 04:18:28 AM

Quote from: Ichi on March 17, 2008, 04:15:55 AM

I never said they weren't better movies.  I said it's the only one aside from Citizen Kane that is regularly discussed as an unabashed masterpiece.  And it's true.

Also, the original Touch of Evil wasn't Welles' own cut either.  At least the new version's changes follow his 57 page memo to the letter.

But it's not true.  The "classic" version of Touch of Evil isn't Orson's cut, note or not.  And anyone that's seen the previously mentioned two movies knows they are masterpieces. 

Chimes at Midnight, The Trial = universal masterpieces, Orson's own cuts.
Touch of Evil = The best cut was put together by third parties based on Orson's notes.

I won't deny that Touch of Evil is a masterpiece, but to say it's "only one aside from Citizen Kane that is regularly discussed as an unabashed masterpiece" is absolute bullshit.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:20:32 AM

No, it's not.  In critical circles, Citizen Kane and Touch of Evil are the ones that are most often discussed.  I know, I actually researched Welles in college for a paper, and Touch of Evil and Citizen Kane were the only two movies that came up on a regular basis on database searches.

And NEITHER of the two versions of Touch of Evil are Orson Welles's cuts - I never said otherwise, and I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: CajoleJuice on March 17, 2008, 04:20:36 AM

Quote from: Fresh Prince on April 30, 2007, 06:18:37 AM

I watched Third Man it was good.

Yea.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: TVC15 on March 17, 2008, 04:22:43 AM

Quote from: Ichi on March 17, 2008, 04:20:32 AM

No, it's not.  In critical circles, Citizen Kane and Touch of Evil are the ones that are most often discussed.  I know, I actually researched Welles in college for a paper, and Touch of Evil and Citizen Kane were the only two movies that came up on a regular basis on database searches.

And NEITHER of the two versions of Touch of Evil are Orson Welles's cuts - I never said otherwise, and I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I'm just saying that the other two movies are more worthy of the classic label because they are closer to his own vision. 

And you said Touch of Evil was his ONLY other movie "discussed as an unabashed masterpiece."  Which is DUMB.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:24:18 AM

No, it is your reading comprehension which is dumb.  I said it's the only other one which is REGULARLY discussed.  The Trial and Chimes at Midnight may occasionally be mentioned in critical circles, but the bulk of praise (and scholarly research/articles) is reserved for Kane and Touch of Evil.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: TVC15 on March 17, 2008, 04:25:42 AM

I give up.  Fuck the stupid semantic bullshit.  Give respect where it's due:  The Trial and Chimes are better flicks.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:26:19 AM

I never said they weren't, lol

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: TVC15 on March 17, 2008, 04:28:54 AM

Then why fucking parrot a point that implies Touch of Evil is his only other masterpiece?

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:29:18 AM

Because this is a film noir thread, The Trial and Chimes at Midnight are not film noirs, and the statement didn't seem to me to imply that it was his only other masterpiece, just that it was regularly discussed as one

It's weird that you'll blast a sentence I wrote because of semantics but you'll let a post that reveals movie taste as awful as this go by without a comment:

Quote from: Raban on March 06, 2008, 08:36:38 PM

Wait wait wait, what in the FUCK IS GOING ON HERE!?

The Sin City movie fucking ruled! Fuck you guys! You're stupid as hell! The Sin City movie was fucking gold. Everything noir needs to be it was, and with gusto. Saying Sin City sucks is like turning to me and saying "Hi I'm a big fat jackass who likes to gag on giant cocks and get donkey punched by hermaphroditic Venezuelan hookers"

Sin City is one of the most entertaining movies I ever seen, and definitely one of the most fun. Just kill yourselves now.

:P

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: TVC15 on March 17, 2008, 04:30:20 AM

I expect you to know better than to throw off the equivalent of PR speak.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:31:08 AM

:spitzer

Title: In which I rescue the thread!
Post by: Mandark on March 17, 2008, 04:39:53 AM

Oh, sweet, this topic's back!  I'll chip in and even type out bold tags for those that be scanning!

In A Lonely Place - This was weird.  There's an unsolved murder, a cynical Humphrey Bogart, a pervasive sense of danger, and a postwar Los Angeles setting.  It didn't feel like a noir, though.  It's more gothic:  a woman is trapped by the passion of her lover, who may be the death of her.

I saw this after catching a few minutes and Netflixing it.  Unfortunately, it turns out I saw the opening, and that's easily my favorite part of the movie.  Bogart trades jibes with some guys and there's a cool brunette, only she's not the main female lead (and imdb says she never amounted to anything, wtf?).

I think feminism ruined this movie.  The tension is meant to be in the mystery of whether Bogart killed this guy or not, because that's the key for interpreting his violent and jealous behavior.  If he's a killer, it's a problem, but if not we're meant to let it slide.

Which of course I can't do.  A guy who acts that way is a BAD GUY and you need to kick his ass to the curb, girlfriend!  *Z-snap*  His character was Abusive Male in my eyes at least half an hour before the climax.

It did have its moments, though, and it's interesting seeing another variation on the Bogart Descends Into Paranoia routine, as seen in Treasure of the Sierra Madre and The Caine Mutiny.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:45:19 AM

Is this the one where Bogart is a Hollywood screenwriter?  I think I may have seen this.  Gloria Grahame plays the girl, I think.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Mandark on March 17, 2008, 04:49:10 AM

Bingo.  "You're a glorified popcorn salesman"  "So are you, but I don't fight it."

The brunette at the beginning (who, it's implied, Bogart beat in a past relationship) was played by Alix Talton. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0848315/)  Liked her way better than Grahame, as someone who could hold her own in a scene with Bogart.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 04:51:51 AM

I always thought Bogart's character in that movie was supposed to be a nod to hard-drinking "tough guy" writers like Ernest Hemingway.

Is the brunette the one who's

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found dead later on?  It's been a while but I remember that Grahame is his neighbor and covers for him initially, giving him an alibi because she's attracted to him and thinks he's innocent.

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Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: HyperZoneWasAwesome on March 17, 2008, 05:18:37 AM

ummm.  I haven't seen Touch of Evil but Wells' only other noir(?), The Lady From Shanghai, is fucking awesome.  And it was also meddled with to the point where you can see the seems in it, but its still gol-dern-great.

And I could watch a movie that consisted only of Humphery Bogart eating pancakes and I'd still give it a passing grade.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Eric P on March 17, 2008, 08:32:30 AM

Quote

Detour - Sometimes fate lays a finger on you, or me, or anyone, for no apparent reason.  A traveling musician finds this out when the person he hitches a ride with accidentally dies, and all evidence seems to point to him as the culprit.  His attempts to erase the evidence just dig him in deeper into a hole, until there's no escape.

veto

he kills her.  he just doesn't take responsibility.  he's the classic unreliable narrator because he places everything to causality instead of owning up to it.

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 08:39:44 AM

n/m, my memory's shot

I think the movie works a lot better if he's not an unreliable narrator

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Eric P on March 17, 2008, 08:44:05 AM

in the film the woman's death is taken as an "accident"

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phone cable around her throat?  come now.

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i haven't seen it in forever, so i totally forgot about the part where he takes the guy's car.

the issue with this thread is that it pretty much already covers all the main noirs, so additional discussion would have to move from the classic period and then things get a bit iffy as to if it's "noir" or not

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 09:02:09 AM

There's no such thing as a set of rules for what's noir and what's not.  I mean, I consider Leave Her to Heaven a film noir, even though it's in color and was probably considered a drama geared towards women (like those Douglas Sirk movies) on release.

I agree with you that the woman's death seems...unlikely...but it just strikes me as a bit funnier if it's all some cruel joke destiny is playing on the narrator.  That said, now that I think about it, even when he takes the guy's car, a murder is plausible if

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you assume the guy died from blunt trauma to the head during as the hitchhiker stole his car and his cash.  The summary on Wikipedia says the guy dies of a heart attack but I could have sworn that he falls over and hits his head "accidentally" somehow.  It's been a few years since I saw it tho.

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I'm gonna say that I think your interpretation is probably the true one.  Now I feel stupid for never considering the possibility that the narrator was lying and just trying to cover for himself.  :lol

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Eric P on March 17, 2008, 09:35:12 AM

i'm trying to think of any noirs i may have seen which aren't included on this list.

would you consider some of the postwar kurosawa films in this vein?

Title: Re: The film noir thread
Post by: Ichirou on March 17, 2008, 09:48:56 AM

I tend to think of film noir as an almost exclusively American style, and I think most film historians agree.  There are some non-American films which fit certain facets of the style (like Rififi or Night and the City, which were by an American director) but I think film noir essentially belongs to post-war America in the late forties and early fifties.